S04.E00: The Abominable Bride

[IWantCandy71]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:42 PM, Vella said:

Well that was terrible.  Boring, flat, uninspired.

 

Couldn't just have an actual "Sherlock solves a mystery in his own time" story?  Too damn busy trying to be clever, clever, clever. Always the curse with this show.

I haven't even watched TAB yet because of comments like this that I saw. IDK. I totally agree with you. The show started out fun, and it seems to have now bought into it's own hype.

 I was so pumped about Sherlock when I watched the first series five/six  years ago. Now I'm just kinda "meh" about it all-the only true standout to the series at this point is Mycroft. I adore MG's Mycroft. Adore, adore.

He's why I'm  hanging on. Perhaps eventually I'll watch TAB, but I have a feeling I'll still agree with you even when I do.
 

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And I think Sherlock is just horrible to Mycroft, who will always be there for him. I want to know that backstory

 

I think it's indicative that something is lacking in the writing when the showrunners and the actors always feel the need to assert this point in every interview. That the two brothers love each other. Well, I can tell Mycroft loves Sherlock, from MG's acting.

But after three series, if BC didn't say it in interviews, I'd still think Sherlock had nothing but disdain for his brother. The writing and the acting should show me how Sherlock feels. The actor shouldn't have to assert it each time, and the question shouldn't even need to be asked at this point.

The fact that they feel they have to punctuate it in interviews outside the show, just seems wrong. It's like the writer and director of a bad movie having to explain the motivations and plot, because either the audience is truly confused, or the people behind the scenes think the audience is stupid. Either way, it's annoying.

Edited July 26, 2016 by IWantCandy71

[Winter Rose]

I thought this started out okay, for me the problem was trying to tie it into the present day. It got too convoluted, only adding speculation, which even then it kind of backtracked, ending with Victorian Sherlock declaring he always felt like a man out of his time (which, for the sake of this episode, gave me the impression the present day was what wasn't real). Although I also thought the waterfall scene was cheesy. But I think it would've been better to let the whole thing be in Victorian times, not even acknowledge the rest of the show (this wasn't part of a season anyway), and just be a fun homage to ACD's Sherlock Holmes.

[ganesh]

I didn't like the framing of the episode simply because it was in Holmes' head, so everything we see is how he sees everything and basically no one else was real. I don't see a problem of making an alternative universe movie in the original time period. 

[rereader2]

Well.

As I said above, I loved it, and on rewatching I love it more each time. It's clever, it's entertaining, there's gobs of character stuff in it--and because so much of that is in Sherlock's head we get to see how HE sees the people in his life, which is awesome.

As for Mycroft, I have a very different take on him than the last few commenters. The very first time we see him, Mycroft's doing his level best to both spy on Sherlock and to ensure he has no real friends; then we see him upping surveillance on Sherlock. Later (TGG) we see him dismissing Sherlock's work as unimportant. In ASIB we see him giving Sherlock the worst possible advice on how to deal with other people, and the we see him laying full blame on Sherlock for the failure of his own scheme--when he's the very person who insisted Sherlock get involved in the first place and preferred to keep secrets unnecessarily. (If Sherlock had had the information, he never would have provided Irene with any info at all, but no, keeping secrets from Sherlock is so much more "sensible".) In THoB we see him giving Moriarty unnecessary information (do we only keep important secrets from Sherlock and none about him?) and then letting him go. We hear in season 3--from Sherlock--that Mycroft helped him in TRF but we don't see any of that, so it may or may not be true (because Sherlock does lie). In TRF we see him take his sweet time extracting Sherlock from being tortured--and we never see him apologize for it. And later we seeing him playing games with Sherlock, in Sherlock's flat--but in that conversation we see Sherlock show concern and caring for Mycroft's isolation, and we see Mycroft rebuffing him. In TSOT we see Sherlock again actively reaching out to Mycroft for support during the wedding reception--and we see Mycroft coldly and actively refusing and again giving him the worst possible advice about how to relate to others. And in HLV we see Mycroft asking Sherlock not to take a suicide mission (which given the way Sherlock feels about government work was probably unnecessary) but only when drugged--and we see him sentencing Sherlock to death by forcing him to take that very suicide mission.

I do not take kindly to this Mycroft, I can tell you.

[IWantCandy71]

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and we see him sentencing Sherlock to death

 

No, we do not.

It is Sherlock's own actions that condemned him to death when he murdered someone. For no good reason except to protect the woman who tried to KILL HIM. Ridiculous move by the "writers".

This is not Mycroft's fault. Mycroft knows Sherlock would never survive prison, so he does the only other option-the mission.  Again-Sherlock's actions got him there. Not his brother. Mycroft *could* have walked away and not intervened, and let the others handle Sherlock. Their punishment would have been far more severe, and if Mycroft were truly out of the loop, he could not have helped him.

It's certainly convenient to blame Mycroft for all of Sherlock's screw ups, but I won't, because  I recognize that Sherlock is a grown man. His screw ups are his fault, period. No one else's. His choice to not have friends was HIS choice.  With all that said, I enjoy the brotherly interactions. It's the ONLY (yeah, that's right, I said it, and I know I'm not alone) consistently entertaining part of this show for me. It's the only part I care about. And it's the only thing that will bring me back to even bother ever again. Forget that. It's the only reason I've *ever* come back after series one. And I say that as a major Benedict Cumberbatch fan. I think this might be to date, my LEAST favorite of his roles.

 And to avoid further debate on the subject that would be a pointless waste of time,  and serve to do nothing but stir the pot, I'll just say that Sherlock is just as horrible a brother as Mycroft may be, and has never been anything  but horrible to Mycroft,  and politely disagree with any opposing opinion. John killed someone in cold blood in the very first episode. Sherlock murdered someone in series three. As far as I am concerned, the show runners crossed a line there and Sherlock is now no better than the criminals he chases.Don't even get me started on murderous Mary. And we're sitting here debating about Mycroft's qualities or the lack of them? Nope. When Sherlock shows 1/10th the concern for Mycroft that Mycroft has shown for him, and when Mycroft starts killing people and the fandom starts whining about how Sherlock is a bad brother because he isn't jumping through hoops to let Mycroft get away with it, then there might be grounds for debate about who is the better person or brother. Until then, nope. Not even a contest. And if they ruin Mycroft to prop any of the others, I hope the ratings plummet and the fandom revolts.

Edited August 12, 2016 by IWantCandy71

[rereader2]

I haven't seen Mycroft show any real concern for Sherlock--but we certainly saw Sherlock show concern for Mycroft's lack of friends, which is a very advanced level of care. Sorry, I totally disagree with your take on the sibling relationship.

Which is a sure sign of very good writing by the show writers, that different viewers have very different takeaways!

[Willowy]

34 minutes ago, rereader2 said:

I haven't seen Mycroft show any real concern for Sherlock

Sorry, jumping in here quite late, but this... either I'm taking it out of context or we watched very different episodes because Mycroft was showing deep and intense (for him) concern on the plane for Sherlock, as I remember it? They all were, Mycroft included. 

[rereader2]

He seemed more annoyed than concerned to me. *shrug*

[Willowy]

I don't know, I remember being surprised that Mycroft was so overt with his worry (perhaps he was annoyed that he was so worried?)... that's what sold it for me, actually. But yes, ymmv.

[sinkwriter]

What about that episode where they were both home for Christmas? I remember that scene with the two of them smoking out in the backyard (until their mother caught them, LOL), and didn't Mycroft say something particularly caring (in his own special stiff-upper-lip sort of way) about Sherlock and being worried about him, etc.? I forget the wording, I'd have to rewatch, but I thought he said something to Sherlock in that scene. He wasn't looking at him, from what I recall, and they both brushed it off immediately, but wasn't that a scene where they sort of had a brotherly moment?

[kieyra]

Quick de-lurk by someone who has usually failed to be drawn in fully by this show or Doctor Who:

I LOVED The Abominable Bride. I was shocked at how utterly immersed I became. The dialogue was so tightly written, and I was fine with the framing device (but I always enjoyed the similar trick on House MD).

Maybe the fact that I'm NOT generally a superfan of the show has something to do with it--e.g., I see some concerns about characterization upthread, but I'm not invested enough in the show to know whether anyone was acting "OOC". 

[Peace 47]

I was (at least at one point) a superfan of this show, and I loved the episode at the time.  As I wrote after it originally aired, I needed to see it connected to the present day because at the time, it had been 2 years since the last new episode and it was 1 year to the next one.  That's a long time to go without bridging the stories.

Even crack-y episodes of dramas with 13-22 episodes per season frequently frame stories like this around the present day in some way.  For example, didn't the X-Files do that for the one episode on a boat that was set during WWII?

It would have surprised me more if TAB had been an unconnected flight of fancy.  The structure made it more interesting to me to (1) try to figure out what was going on (like with the dropped clues throughout the episode, such as the plane noise on the train, or Sherlock going trance-like to ask, "How could he [not she] survive?") and (2) absorb how the reactions of the characters were a distorted mirror of how Sherlock sees those people and how he sees himself.  Why in the name of everything did Sherlock have "John" give him the third degree in the greenhouse on who Sherlock was attracted to?  If it was the real John asking the question of Sherlock, that is one thing (and maybe just a humorous exchange between bros about how Sherlock would rather be murdered by a ghost than answer the question), but what does it mean that Sherlock was grilling himself on why he needed to be alone?  (And no, I'm not advocating "Johnlock" with that anymore, but just saying that it adds a layer of complexity.)

On the subject of Mycroft, I see him as caring quite a bit.  He's a ... for lack of a better analogy ... "Jack Bristow" (from Alias) type.  His motives may seem murky (the writers delighting in the ambiguity, like when they would have liked the audience to believe in the first episode that this man could be Moriarty).  But deep down, he cares.

Mycroft said on the plane in this episode that he was there for Sherlock before and would be again.  (I did sense exasperation, too, but that stands to reason when you're watching your sibling nearly kill themself).  Mycroft sadly asked John to look after Sherlock before they exited the plane.  The flashback of Sherlock on drugs showed Mycroft sitting down next to him to collect the list.  These are not the actions of a man who does not care.  The issue seems to be that for whatever reason, Sherlock is crazy resentful of Mycroft in certain contexts.  (I mean, it's not all hostility because they can play Operation together or do deductions with some civility.)  But there's something festering, too, that makes Sherlock act like an ass to Mycroft as Sherlock exits the plane. We'll see if it is explained.

[rereader2]

On 8/18/2016 at 11:31 PM, sinkwriter said:

What about that episode where they were both home for Christmas? I remember that scene with the two of them smoking out in the backyard (until their mother caught them, LOL), and didn't Mycroft say something particularly caring (in his own special stiff-upper-lip sort of way) about Sherlock and being worried about him, etc.? I forget the wording, I'd have to rewatch, but I thought he said something to Sherlock in that scene. He wasn't looking at him, from what I recall, and they both brushed it off immediately, but wasn't that a scene where they sort of had a brotherly moment?

Yes, but that was when he was drugged, it's when Mycroft told Sherlock that he would be offered a job but to refuse it because it was a suicide mission.

[K2DangerGirl]

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The very first time we see him, Mycroft's doing his level best to both spy on Sherlock and to ensure he has no real friends

I don't think that's what's happening there....in "A Scandal in Belgravia" Mycroft says that "Of course [he doesn't trust their Secret Service], they spy on people for money."  I think it was a test, which John passed by refusing to take money to spy on Sherlock. 

I think we can assume that Sherlock doesn't truly financially need a roommate, he needs a "minder".  I wonder how many other potential roommates Mycroft ran off after proving they didn't really have Sherlock's best interests at heart?  :)

And the real reason I dropped in this thread:  Congratulations to "The Abominable Bride" on its Emmy Win for TV Movie!

[IWantCandy71]

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On the subject of Mycroft, I see him as caring quite a bit.  He's a ... for lack of a better analogy ... "Jack Bristow" (from Alias) type.  His motives may seem murky (the writers delighting in the ambiguity, like when they would have liked the audience to believe in the first episode that this man could be Moriarty).  But deep down, he cares.

Yup. And the thing about his caring is what he mostly gets in return for  it, is his arm wrenched behind his back by his ungrateful drug addict brother. As far as I'm concerned, Gatiss and Moffat went too far with the Sherlock character in series three.

I may watch series four, I may not. I sent the DVD back of AB without watching it, though I may eventually break down and take a look. I'm afraid to, honestly. I don't really need further validation of my opinion of how badly the quality of this show has declined over the years.

 I really do think they are killing off Mycroft. Pity it can't be John. But if they do kill off Mycroft, I have absolutely no sadness about leaving this show behind and never looking back.

Edited October 28, 2016 by IWantCandy71

[Kel Varnsen]

I finally watched this last night on netflix. Liked it although it seemed like a lot of work for Sherlock to go through just to figure out, what seemed fairly obvious,  that Moraity is still dead, a video is not evidence that he is alive and this is just someone else is just picking up where he left off.

John calling Sherlock "Holmes" and making him wear the hat was funny though.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Kel Varnsen