Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Constantinople]

...In any event, I do think it might be a good thing indeed if the next Wolf Lord of the North is one familiar with Wildling culture for obvious reasons.  And hell, a slightly feral Stark ruler is actually in keeping with the more ancient family lineage.  (Who have some of the mountain clans in their veins remember?!?)  It's still much, MUCH better than being ruled by a Bolton!

Both Catelyn and Eddard grew-up, or largely grew-up, in the South. Their Oprahfication of the family brought the Starks to the brink of destruction and almost into the abyss.

Winterfell needs a hard hitting, mother %$&*! Stark of the old school.

Shaggydog won't bite off the fingers of any bannerman of Rickon that gives him lip. Rickon will do it himself.

[Winnief]

 

Both Catelyn and Eddard grew-up, or largely grew-up, in the South. Their Oprahfication of the family brought the Starks to the brink of destruction and almost into the abyss.

Winterfell needs a hard hitting, mother %$&*! Stark of the old school.

Shaggydog won't bite off the fingers of any bannerman of Rickon that gives him lip. Rickon will do it himself.

 

Ha!  But seriously I like the idea of RIckon being a throwback more in the vein of Ned's brother Brandon, "The Wild Wolf," and sticking to Northern ways without getting bogged down in all the games the Southernors play.  You might argue that was Rickard Stark's fatal error; that he brought his family into so much of the Southernor's world especially their ill fated attendance at that damned tourney.

 

Though to be fair there *was* a certain logic to cultivating good relationships with the Vale and the Riverlands.  And Ned the son who was fostered in the South was never supposed to be the Heir.  A crucial point to remember really.  In retrospect one thing that may have doomed Robb was that he was not only conceived at Riverrun but *born* there-and of course he died in the Riverlands too, and both Stark sisters have spent much of their childhoods abroad, while Rickon is Northern all the way.  (Bran of course is destined for other things.)

[BlackberryJam]

Backing up a page, GRRM is apparently using Brienne (yeah, she's my fav) and Jaime for Beauty and the Beast, although I think it comes into play with Sansa and Sandor as well.

 

http://tvline.com/2014/03/25/game-of-thrones-season-4-spoilers-gwendoline-christie-brienne-jamie/

 

As to the original outline, interesting that Cersei has all of the awful qualities of the original Jaime.  George seems to have split that character in two, but at the same time, through the twincesting, kept them as one, at least initially.

 

I hope Rickon gets more.  Of all the living Starks, he's the one I hate least ;)  Thought if Sansa goes full on devious, conniving, vengeful, I might actually like her.  MIGHT.

[Winnief]

http://www.melty.com/game-of-thrones-season-5-s-sophie-turner-reveals-what-s-in-store-for-sansa-a225.html

 

Paths crossing...my guess is she meets up with Brienne and Podrick.

[SeanC]

After the reams of speculation about R+L=J and whether that means Jon is Azor Ahai and/or the rightful king of Westeros, etc., it would be hilarious if the initial reason for it was because he needed to be able to have sex with Arya without it being incestuous.

[Hecate7]

After the reams of speculation about R+L=J and whether that means Jon is Azor Ahai and/or the rightful king of Westeros, etc., it would be hilarious if the initial reason for it was because he needed to be able to have sex with Arya without it being incestuous.

That is a very interesting point. Probably quite likely, actually. But it looks as if the story has removed sex from Arya and invested it all in Sansa.

 

I suspect that a quite different reunion is brewing, from the Stark one we all wish for. If R+L=J, and A+J=T, then Jon Snow and Tyrion are kin--Tyrion would be Snow's uncle on his father's side. Tyrion is initially quite as avuncular towards Jon Snow as Benjen, his other uncle. He would be Danaerys' brother.

 

I think what's been happening in the new story, is that the families of the three "dragon riders" are melting away to enable them to create their new family bonds. This story seems to be saying something a bit cynical and sad about family ties, though, and so although I'm sure these connections will come to light, I'm not at all sure they'll protect any one of the three from killing or being killed by the other two.

[Winnief]

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/why-we-should-be-glad-game-thrones-ditching-books/

[Advance35]

Sophie Turner gave an interesting interview recently.   She admits she overexagerrated how intense a certain scene she did this season is going to be and they said if "The Red Wedding" is a 10,  your intense scene this season would be?   And she replied a 6.

 

The interview was a good read.   Also interesting to me, she was asked if Sansa had a death list who would be on it and I was expecting her to say Cersei but she actually says Dany is a threat to her character.   This REALLY surprised me as we don't get any insight into Sansa's or LF's thoughts on Danerys Targaryen and her dragons in the novels, but it sounds like the show may make both LF and Sansa aware and more importantly (potentially prepare) for an encounter with Dany at some point.   Now this is based off of ST's "feelings" but since she hasn't read the book I think/assume (so I could be wrong) based on where her own story is going, she's making these speculations.

 

Maybe Cersei, Margaery and Dany were in fact the "War of 3 Queens" that'll likely destroy what's left of the Seven Kingdoms as LF speculated.

[Avaleigh]

I wonder how Littlefinger has his ear to the ground over in Essos since he hasn't been shown as someone who takes any of the dragon rumors seriously? Whose tidings would people believe regarding dragons being back in the equation? I hope that's something that's addressed at the end of the season. 

 

I don't suppose there's any chance of Myrcella being one of the three queens? That brief bit from the trailer makes me think that possibility is out. I thought that maybe the Sand Snakes would still serve that function but maybe not. Then there's the idea that Trystane could be Aegon but I don't really want that to happen because then we wouldn't have any young Martells. 

 

Is there any news on whether or not Balon is appearing this season? Or any of the Ironborn for that matter?

[Winnief]

Or it could be that Sophie put Dany on the death list because she's privy to information we don't have about future events regarding Sansa and Dany's storylines..hmmm/

[SeanC]

I doubt it.  She explains why she put Dany on the list in the interview itself -- because the dragons are powerful and they're not on Sansa's team.  Doesn't really require advance knowledge of the storyline to know that (unless you're one of the people who prefers to imagine all the "good" characters are on the same team, which is often the case with casual viewers, I find).

 

Though assuming she remains involved in the political storylines in the south, Dany's (eventual) arrival will presumably have some impact on Sansa's story at some point.

[Winnief]

Here's an interesting bit...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/15/game-of-thrones-season-5-deaths_n_6688782.html

Let the speculation about who will be dying on screen, (that as of ADWD was still alive) begin!

Obviously Meryn Trant is doomed, but who else?

Possible candidates include Missandei, Grey Worm, Yizthak....hell really just about anybody in Mereen right now except for Tyrion and Dany is at risk especially with the upcoming Battle of Mereen.

On that bent the Battle of Winterfell could usher in some important fatalities as well; the Boltons and Stannis.  Theon might get to redeem himself this season only to die afterward, and I'm VERY worried about Shireen.  Mance too might actually be burned for real this time around.  And since I'm hoping we get some dead Freys (AND PIE!!!) that might include even more Frey's than in the books including Walder himself.

Mace Tyrell may not make it back from Braavos or Bronn from Dorne.

And since there's no telling what's going to happen with the Vale next season, we could see the deaths of Sweetrobin, Podrick, some random Vale lords...or even Littlefinger which if/when it does come will somehow be by the doing of Sansa.

[SeanC]

Walder isn't in this season.

 

I'd be pretty sure he's just talking about minor characters like Trant.  No way the show would kill off somebody like Bronn.

[Winnief]

That would depend on whether Bronn has any important role to play in future seasons though wouldn't it?!?

 

If he doesn't then D&D might decide to off him, to ensure Season Five has an adequate body count of characters we actually give a damn about AND because frankly they need to start on some negative population growth at some point if they're going to wrap this mother up. 

 

Of course, Bronn isn't in *nearly* so much danger as those characters who were scheduled to die during the Battles of Mereen and Winterfell or their immediate aftermath because while TWoW didn't bother to get to them there's no way the show will be leaving those particular cliffhangers in the air.

 

Also it occurs to me that depending on what role (if any) Asha's going to play in the books she might not survive this season either...though Alfie Allen's latest interview suggests that Theon will at least live long enough to make the jump from the tower.  Now whether he's jumping alone or with someone else (I suspect the latter) and who that someone else *is* is anybody's guess.  I don't know if they'll bother with Fake Arya but its entirely possible that Ramsay might pick some poor unfortunate, (not Miranda since even if she's still alive she'd hardly an innocent,) to be featured in his next hunt and a HUGE part of Theon's redemption arc is that he ultimately was trying to escape for the sake of someone else-not himself. 

[SeanC]

That would depend on whether Bronn has any important role to play in future seasons though wouldn't it?!?

Bronn's seeming being set up to continue his rise through the ranks (GRRM commented as much), and the showrunners clearly love the character.  I see no reason to think they'd kill him off just to satisfy some notion of a mandatory body count.

[elzin]

Maybe we'll have random tv-only characters like Locke introduced to kill off.  I don't know what to expect, like are they going to end the season on the last chapters of ADWD/AFFC? Follow GRRM's general outline? Make stuff up whole cloth?  Are they adapting or inventing, condensing or omitting?  The other seasons were easier to predict. Sure, we got stuff like Lady Stoneheart wrong, but we knew they weren't skipping the Red or Purple Weddings, and we knew when they were going to come.  Between running out of book material and D&D's flagrant disregard for book canon last season, it's going to be a wild wide this spring. 

 

I can say this is the season I'm looking forward to least.  I'm not dreading it, but I'm not excited.  This is the part of a run where a lot of tv shows fall apart. I wasn't a fan of a lot of the UNNECESSARY changes last season, and I don't have faith in D&D getting what the story is really about.  I will watch it and perhaps it'll be my favorite season due to lowered expectations, but I am going in with those lowered expectations.

 

One change I can get behind is a lack of flashbacks and dreams/visions.  I really can't stand that in tv/movies for the most part.  However, it does leave some holes in the mytharc.  If we do really get Maegy the Frog this season (who I am now convinced is Jayne Westerling's grandmother or whatever great- needs to be attached to that) I can get behind that.  If Cersei just drunkenly blurts the story out to Taena (and let's face it, there's a great chance of her being in the show than just about any other random minor character because lesbian sex) that'd be fine, but some of these visions and prophecies really do help explain motivation.

 

I'm re-reading the books and recently got to Astapor and Dany had a dream where she saw herself as Rhaegar on the trident and instead of Robert and co., Dany!Rhaegar was riding a dragon and killing what we as readers know are Others.  I don't think that was really her. I think she saw a vision of future Jon. I believe Jon will be resurrected (duh, who doesn't) and since Now His Watch Is Over, he'll connect with Dany and be a dragonrider. She saw Rhaegar in her dream because R+L=J.  It was really interesting to me, these little nuggets that I think are foreshadowing. That means for sure the wall is coming down, Jon is not dead, Jon will ride the dragon, the Others will get all the way to the Trident, Jon is Rhaegar's son. We all know that anyway, but it's another piece of evidence to support those theories. But is there enough lore in the show for this to happen without it leaving Unsullied going "WTF was that?"  That's what worries me.  Can D&D introduce these things delicately and sufficiently at such a late date?

 

Speaking of visions, I caught another one I had missed on my other reads. When Jaime is taken to Harrenhall and asks about the battle of the Blackwater, he thinks to himself that the imagery of everything being on fire in KL was a recurring dream he had had and was like "oh, ok, that was what my dream was foretelling."  But during the battle, KL really wasn't on fire. It was Stannis's ships.  The real fire is going to come later when Cersei burns the mother down. He assumed his dream had happened, but it's still yet to come. Not long before that he was also thinking of how he and Cersei will die together since they were born together.  I guess GRRM could be lobbing red herrings or trolling readers on purpose, but it always excites me when I catch stuff that I missed before in the thousands of pages, and I wonder how will the show be without these details, can skipping them now just hurt the show long term?

[Avaleigh]

I agree that the deaths are probably going to be minor characters but if we do lose some major-ish characters these are my guesses:

 

Myrcella. If Cersei's kids are going to die before her I could see Myrcella being killed but Cersei, Jaime and most everyone in Westeros not finding out about it until season 6.

 

Missandei. It's the only reason I can think of for why they're building up the relationship with Grey Worm and I think Missandei makes more sense than Grey Worm because I think it's good for the audience to know at least one of Dany's Unsullied. I can see the argument for why Grey Worm makes more sense too I just think that it makes a kind of narrative sense for Dany to feel sort of isolated emotionally again if she were to lose someone who has basically become a friend at this point and is the only girl friend she's ever had before. 

 

Daario. Maybe he can serve the Quentyn function by trying to tame one of the other two dragons. I really would like the TV viewers to see an example of dragon taming gone wrong so that they have a better sense of the impressiveness of Dany's achievement with Drogon. 

 

Longshot--Balon. I say it's a longshot because I haven't heard anything about the character being in this season. I don't get why they didn't just knock him off in season 3 along with Robb. 

 

Regarding Shireen--

 

Even though I think Shireen is in danger I find it hard to believe that any show would show a kid being burned alive on television. I'm not saying it's impossible just super unlikely. If it does happen then I imagine that they wouldn't actually show it. 

[John Potts]

God I hope Daario dies. He seems to be nothing more than a pretty boy with an overinflated sense of his own brilliance. Hopefully his death will encourage Danny to get a move on and do something towards reclaiming the Iron Throne. Seriously, the possible resurgence of the Targaryen dynasty and the Others coming over (or through) the Wall has been threatened since Book 1 and S1E1 and yet we're still no closer to seeing Dragons v Ice Zombies. I still wonder why D&D have kept Balon alive far longer than in the books since they don't seem to want to do anything with him (though it would be nice if they kill him onscreen rather than go "Oh, and Balon died" like in the books).

 

I really hope Shireen doesn't die, It'd be nice if there's one "nice" character who isn't killed off for being "too good", but it could easily happen.

[SeanC]

Myrcella. If Cersei's kids are going to die before her I could see Myrcella being killed but Cersei, Jaime and most everyone in Westeros not finding out about it until season 6.

 

Missandei. It's the only reason I can think of for why they're building up the relationship with Grey Worm

Since Myrcella is heading back to King's Landing in the books, there's no way the show is going to skip having her die when Cersei is actually present, which seems the likely outcome in the source material.

 

As to the latter, the relationship with Grey Worm gives the two of them screentime and some character development.  It really doesn't require any other explanation -- the writers try to give all the minor castmembers a scene or two every year.

Edited February 16, 2015 by SeanC

[ElizaD]

Myrcella. If Cersei's kids are going to die before her I could see Myrcella being killed but Cersei, Jaime and most everyone in Westeros not finding out about it until season 6.

 

I used to think Myrcella might die since they were sending Jaime to Dorne and had a 7 season goal, but the behind the scenes footage from 5x09 that shows Jaime, Doran, Ellaria and Myrcella/Trystane chatting in peace made me doubt that. Maybe Jaime does get permission to take her back to KL but in 5x10 Doran reveals to the Sand Snakes that they must go with them and sabotage the Lannisters to help Dany.

 

I still think Grey Worm/Barristan/Daario are more likely to die than Missandei because Dany is about to gain Tyrion as a male advisor and regain Jorah if he's not fated to die in the battle. Missandei offers a different dynamic.

 

 I still wonder why D&D have kept Balon alive far longer than in the books since they don't seem to want to do anything with him (though it would be nice if they kill him onscreen rather than go "Oh, and Balon died" like in the books).

 

I guess it's because a lot of the time they don't want to bring up something until it's relevant to the plot (like Sansa going from zero to master liar Maleficent in season 4), so he'll live until Yara/Theon get away from the Bolton/Stannis plot. Balon the undying has become such a fandom joke that I'd cackle if he was allowed to last all the way to season 7.

[benteen]

Unless Balon gets tied to Euron's storyline.

[loki567]

Bronn strikes me as a pretty good candidate for death. Him "rising through the ranks," is one of those nice, little side-stories that GoT really doesn't have time for. So unless his plotline has an effect on the major characters, I could see it. Especially since it would hit the audience hard. 

 

And it looked to me like the trailer almost confirmed Grey Worm's death with Missandei kissing his unmoving body and all. 

[Constantinople]

I can see Bronn on the death list, although I don't know if it would be in this season or another.

 

He largely functioned as Tyrion's sidekick and as way of reminding Tyrion, and the audience, that Tyrion isn't all that and a bag of chips.

 

Now that's Bronn is separated from Tyrion, there's less need to keep Bronn around.  In Season 4, Jaime started training with Bronn, so perhaps their relationship will be developed a little more, though I'm not sure how.  As Commander of the Kingsguard, Jaime can't really take Bronn into Jaime's service, and Bronn is about the least likely Kingsguard in the history of ever, especially now that he's betrothed.

 

Of course, it's also possible Bronn and Tyrion will be reunited later in the series, so they'd have to keep Bronn going for that.  Perhaps Tyrion will be an ass and try to kill Bronn.  Or perhaps Tyrion, after suffering some hard knocks himself, will be more sympathetic upon those who don't have a family name on which to rely.

[SeanC]

Perhaps Tyrion will be an ass and try to kill Bronn.

They parted on fine terms in the show (even in the books, he doesn't think of Bronn all that negatively).

[benteen]

It doesn't make sense for Bronn to risk his neck for Jaime by going to Dorne though.  Granted, fighting the Mountain would have been an extremely high risk and no reward prospect but what does he gain by sneaking into Dorne with Jaime.  Jaime and an army would be another matter.

Edited February 17, 2015 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

I used to think Myrcella might die since they were sending Jaime to Dorne and had a 7 season goal, but the behind the scenes footage from 5x09 that shows Jaime, Doran, Ellaria and Myrcella/Trystane chatting in peace made me doubt that. Maybe Jaime does get permission to take her back to KL but in 5x10 Doran reveals to the Sand Snakes that they must go with them and sabotage the Lannisters to help Dany.

 

I still think Grey Worm/Barristan/Daario are more likely to die than Missandei because Dany is about to gain Tyrion as a male advisor and regain Jorah if he's not fated to die in the battle. Missandei offers a different dynamic.

The reason that I don't think Barristan will die in Essos is because then there would be no pay off to the Lannisters having kicked him out of the Kingsguard. Tywin knew that Cersei and Joffrey fucked up when they got rid of Barristan and when he explains it to Cersei you can tell she's like 'Shit. Did I really not consider that this guy might join up with one of the opposing factions?' If Barristan isn't at Dany's side when she finally gets to Westeros I feel like that would be a missed opportunity. I feel Barristan the Bold/Brave being on her side would be one of the few things that the smallfolk would see as a positive in terms of Dany trying to regain the Iron Throne. 

 

I saw the shots of 5x09 and I feel like that's supposed to lead us into a false sense of security especially since it's you know episode 9 where lots of shit tends to happen.

 

Since Myrcella is heading back to King's Landing in the books, there's no way the show is going to skip having her die when Cersei is actually present, which seems the likely outcome in the source material.

 

As to the latter, the relationship with Grey Worm gives the two of them screentime and some character development.  It really doesn't require any other explanation -- the writers try to give all the minor castmembers a scene or two every year.

I'm not even convinced that Cersei and Myrcella are going to see each other again at least not alive. I honestly won't be surprised if Myrcella is killed on the journey back to KL. I also can't decide as to what fAegon's reaction will be if/when he ends up encountering Myrcella. Would he simply see her as hostage material? Marriage material? A decoration for his new court? Could Myrcella's decoy play into this at all?

 

I used to think Myrcella might die since they were sending Jaime to Dorne and had a 7 season goal, but the behind the scenes footage from 5x09 that shows Jaime, Doran, Ellaria and Myrcella/Trystane chatting in peace made me doubt that. Maybe Jaime does get permission to take her back to KL but in 5x10 Doran reveals to the Sand Snakes that they must go with them and sabotage the Lannisters to help Dany.

 

I still think Grey Worm/Barristan/Daario are more likely to die than Missandei because Dany is about to gain Tyrion as a male advisor and regain Jorah if he's not fated to die in the battle. Missandei offers a different dynamic.

 

 

I guess it's because a lot of the time they don't want to bring up something until it's relevant to the plot (like Sansa going from zero to master liar Maleficent in season 4), so he'll live until Yara/Theon get away from the Bolton/Stannis plot. Balon the undying has become such a fandom joke that I'd cackle if he was allowed to last all the way to season 7.

More than anything to do with the Ironborn it irritates me that this messes with Melisandre's storyline and Stannis feeling like she's the real deal. In the books Davos pointed out that her spell or whatever hadn't worked yet and Stannis seemed like he still had reservations about Mel and her powers. Once she gets rid of the three she said she'd get rid of, while it's true that he's still frustrated at having to deal with Tommen and others, it's also clear that Melisandre's ability to seemingly be able to rid him of his enemies made Stannis more confident in her than ever. I don't doubt his confidence in her on the show but I can see Unsullied viewers wondering why all of the kings aren't dead.

 

It doesn't make sense for Bronn to risk his neck for Jaime by going to Dorne though.  Granted, fighting the Mountain will have been an extremely high risk and no reward prospect but what does he gain by sneaking into Dorne with Jaime.

I wonder though why Bronn went North of the Wall in the past? Talk about a place that's risky. I'd take Dorne any day in addition to keeping those pouches of gold coming his way, his main goal I'm sure, he's just a guy who's down for adventure? Maybe he doesn't think there's any reason that he wouldn't be able handle himself even if it meant ditching Jaime at the last minute in order to save his neck if things go wrong.

[Winnief]

The reason that I don't think Barristan will die in Essos is because then there would be no pay off to the Lannisters having kicked him out of the Kingsguard. Tywin knew that Cersei and Joffrey fucked up when they got rid of Barristan and when he explains it to Cersei you can tell she's like 'Shit. Did I really not consider that this guy might join up with one of the opposing factions?' If Barristan isn't at Dany's side when she finally gets to Westeros I feel like that would be a missed opportunity. I feel Barristan the Bold/Brave being on her side would be one of the few things that the smallfolk would see as a positive in terms of Dany trying to regain the Iron Throne.

 

 True but we have gotten missed pay-offs in the past haven't we?!?  We never got to see Robb vs. Tywin or Robb vs. Joffrey directly on the battlefield.  We never got to see Cat's reaction to learning the truth about Jon's parentage (or her realization of how much she'd wronged Ned AND Jon all those years.)  We never got to see Tywin's reaction to White Walkers, dragons, or the truth about Jon either.  Or had Aemon learn the truth before he died.  We may well never get to see Baelish react to dragons and white walkers either and Martin may plan never to have Sansa/Cersei meet re-unite in person for one last showdown or have Cersei meet Dany either.  (Though I'm not sure that the show will be able to resist those potential moments.) 

 

I think Ser Selmy might actually welcome the chance to die in battle in defense of the Queen he swore to protect.  He's that kind of guy. 

 

Now I have no idea whether Myrcella makes it to KL or not, but I am quite sure that Tommen dies before her, (sob-I like both of Cersei's younger kids,) to fulfill the prophecy and that Cersei is gonna be the one to burn KL-for that matter I have a nasty suspicion based on the episode Blackwater that she will indeed kill one of her surviving children, in a misguided effort to 'protect' them from an external threat be it Dany, White Walkers, Sand Snakes, or someone else entirely.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Winnief

[benteen]

Yeah, GRRM doesn't give you payoffs to stuff like the Starks getting revenge on the Lannisters or Joffrey dying by the hand of righteous justice.  So Barristan definitely stands a serious chance of getting killed in Essos.  I think Jorah will make it back to Westeros at least to hear his father's dying wish but there's definitely no guarantee of that either.

[SeanC]

We never got to see Cat's reaction to learning the truth about Jon's parentage (or her realization of how much she'd wronged Ned AND Jon all those years.) 

She can't be said to have wronged them, seeing as Ned was lying to her.

[Hecate7]

They parted on fine terms in the show (even in the books, he doesn't think of Bronn all that negatively).

 

Bronn didn't owe Tyrion anything, and so Tyrion isn't mad at him. Sansa didn't owe him anything, and so he's not mad at Sansa. He's mad at the people who owed him love, loyalty, and protection--Shae, Tywin, Cersei, Jaime--who instead gave him hate, betrayal, and constant attempts on his life. He's mad at people who took advantage of him and betrayed him. He'd be cheered to learn of Lysa Arryn's death but he didn't engineer it and wouldn't have done so even if he'd had the time. He was saddened to hear of Catelyn and Robb's deaths even though ostensibly he benefitted from them. (In reality that will never happen).

 

He's mad at people whose lives he saved, who repaid him with a death sentence--the people of King's Landing. He's mad at people who called him a Demon Monkey while he was busily standing between them and the new Mad King.

She can't be said to have wronged them, seeing as Ned was lying to her.

 

No, she can't be said to have wronged NED. But she could have been said to be wronging Jon even when Jon was Ned's bastard. To see her learn that she was so cruel and cold to her nephew, not Ned's bastard at all, would be delicious. I'm sorry we never will.

[Skeeter22]

Jaime never wronged Tyrion on the show. If anything, Tyrion wronged him. I wonder how that will impact their relationship this season, if at all.

I'm not sure how Shae really owed Tyrion any more than Bronn did. They were both his employees no matter how Tyrion deluded himself. Book Tyrion was quite bitter at Sansa as well, though I doubt they'll go there on the show.

[benteen]

I admit I always wanted to see another Jon and Catelyn scene sometime after Jon had joined the Night's Watch.  But again, something that would never happen.

[Advance35]

Now I have no idea whether Myrcella makes it to KL or not, but I am quite sure that Tommen dies before her, (sob-I like both of Cersei's younger kids,) to fulfill the prophecy and that Cersei is gonna be the one to burn KL-for that matter I have a nasty suspicion based on the episode Blackwater that she will indeed kill one of her surviving children, in a misguided effort to 'protect' them from an external threat be it Dany, White Walkers, Sand Snakes, or someone else entirely.

 

IA.  It was that scene between Tommen and Cersei in the Throne Room, sitting on the Iron Throne.  She was about to poison him but Tywin's entrance stopped her however Tywin won't be around to stop Cersei from poisoning Tommen's Reign as King and it will probably end up getting him killed.

 

I think because Tommen is aged up we'll probably see him trying to do more damage control with the masses (and Cersei's escalating insanity thwarting him at every turn), in addition to him possibly trying to take a more pro-active stance in mitigating the enimity between Cersei and Margaery.   But with Cersei plotting and Olenna/Margaery no doubt plotting, he's going to be out of his league.   I think a Sand Snake will be his ultimate undoing though, probably in a messy aftermath of the Queen Trials.

 

As for Myrcella, I don't think her future is bright but I don't know how she'll buy it.   Trystane is actually in love with her so she's probably safe from House Martell (can't believe Doran would allow his heir to become emotionally invested in a Lannister), Stannis and Mel would kill her if they got custody and I guess Aegon could too.   I wouldn't even consider it OOC if House Tyrell did something in retaliation, should something awful happen to Margaery.

[Avaleigh]

IA.  It was that scene between Tommen and Cersei in the Throne Room, sitting on the Iron Throne.  She was about to poison him but Tywin's entrance stopped her however Tywin won't be around to stop Cersei from poisoning Tommen's Reign as King and it will probably end up getting him killed.

 

I think because Tommen is aged up we'll probably see him trying to do more damage control with the masses (and Cersei's escalating insanity thwarting him at every turn), in addition to him possibly trying to take a more pro-active stance in mitigating the enimity between Cersei and Margaery.   But with Cersei plotting and Olenna/Margaery no doubt plotting, he's going to be out of his league.   I think a Sand Snake will be his ultimate undoing though, probably in a messy aftermath of the Queen Trials.

 

As for Myrcella, I don't think her future is bright but I don't know how she'll buy it.   Trystane is actually in love with her so she's probably safe from House Martell (can't believe Doran would allow his heir to become emotionally invested in a Lannister), Stannis and Mel would kill her if they got custody and I guess Aegon could too.   I wouldn't even consider it OOC if House Tyrell did something in retaliation, should something awful happen to Margaery.

The reason I think that Myrcella will die before Tommen is that I think Tommen and Cersei are going to flee KL for Casterly Rock. I don't know if they'll flee because of Aegon or someone else but I definitely think that there is a reason that Cersei put out there her preference for the Rock over KL. With Cersei "stumbling from one idiocy to the next" and show!Tywin's comment about how a king who goes on the run won't be a king for very long, I have to imagine that Cersei will seal Tommen's fate by turning him into a king on the run. I also think that TWOIAF pointed out that Casterly Rock is basically the only castle that could have handled being attacked by the dragons of Aegon and his sisters. Doesn't this seem like an important detail that might come up again? 

 

As for Myrcella's death, couldn't the Darkstar try again? We still don't know who put him up to it, right? Then there's the possibility that Myrcella could be collateral damage if she's apart of fAegon's court during his brief reign and fAegon being taken out by Euron or someone else. There's also the idea that a Sand Snake will take out Myrcella. 

 

The Sand Snake who seems the most dangerous to Tommen would likely use poison as her weapon and I can't see both of Cersei's son dying via poison. I can maybe see Meryn Trant being poisoned by something that was meant for Tommen.

 

While I can see Tommen dying in a bunch of different ways, my thought is that he'll catch a disease and die before he can be murdered by any of his enemies. When I think about Cersei's fears for his health, her comments that he was never as robust as Joffrey, it makes me think that Cersei's final tipping point could be being forced to watch another son die as she stands by helpless only this time she won't be able to turn her wrath on an enemy--it will be something that will be seen as being in the hands of the gods. If something like this were to happen after the death of Myrcella I think whatever shreds of sanity that Cersei has managed to hold on to will immediately cease to exist and we'll get her swan song of full on, unhinged, hurt-as-many-people-as-I-can-madness until someone (Jaime likely but Tyrion I think is still a possibility too) finally puts her out of her misery in order to protect whatever people she ends up taking her pain out on. 

 

I wouldn't even consider it OOC if House Tyrell did something in retaliation, should something awful happen to Margaery.

Maybe. I'm on the fence about something like this even though there's probably very little reason to be. I guess I see the knights of the Reach as being more chivalrous than the average. I can see Olenna shrugging her shoulders at the idea of Myrcella's death but someone like Loras or Garlan Tryell, I don't know. 

[Constantinople]

The reason that I don't think Barristan will die in Essos is because then there would be no pay off to the Lannisters having kicked him out of the Kingsguard. Tywin knew that Cersei and Joffrey fucked up when they got rid of Barristan and when he explains it to Cersei you can tell she's like 'Shit. Did I really not consider that this guy might join up with one of the opposing factions?' If Barristan isn't at Dany's side when she finally gets to Westeros I feel like that would be a missed opportunity. I feel Barristan the Bold/Brave being on her side would be one of the few things that the smallfolk would see as a positive in terms of Dany trying to regain the Iron Throne.

Isn't Cersei's reaction something of the payoff already?

 

 

True but we have gotten missed pay-offs in the past haven't we?!?

 

I think Ser Selmy might actually welcome the chance to die in battle in defense of the Queen he swore to protect.  He's that kind of guy.

I agree. Also, if Ser Barristan dies saving Daenerys's life, it doesn't really matter on which continent he dies. Cersei/Joffrey will indirectly be responsible for saving Daenerys's life.

If Ser Barristan doesn't make it to Westeros, the small folk won't see him, but there will still be songs about the last true knight who rejected the false King and died saving the true Queen

[Winnief]

I agree. Also, if Ser Barristan dies saving Daenerys's life, it doesn't really matter on which continent he dies. Cersei/Joffrey will indirectly be responsible for saving Daenerys's life.

If Ser Barristan doesn't make it to Westeros, the small folk won't see him, but there will still be songs about the last true knight who rejected the false King and died saving the true Queen

 

 

Precisely.  In fact Joff/Cersei already indirectly saved Dany's life, because if not for Selmy Dany  would have died from a manticore bite.  Not to mention Selmy with over a half century of experience as Westeros's greatest warrior has been instrumental in training Dany's army-providing them tactical knowledge as well as their already impressive discipline and fierceness.  Plus, Tywin in the books and show made it very clear exactly what he thought of that decision. 

[Hecate7]

Jaime never wronged Tyrion on the show. If anything, Tyrion wronged him. I wonder how that will impact their relationship this season, if at all.

I'm not sure how Shae really owed Tyrion any more than Bronn did. They were both his employees no matter how Tyrion deluded himself. Book Tyrion was quite bitter at Sansa as well, though I doubt they'll go there on the show.

 

Shae claimed to love Tyrion. She acted jealous when he married Sansa. Book!Shae didn't owe him anything, but Show!Shae most certainly did, because she really insisted on that whole truly loving Tyrion angle. She even had Varys convinced. So yes, she owed it to him to get on that fricking boat he hired for her, and move into the house he had bought for her, and live her life.

 

She didn't do it, not because she loved him, but because she preferred to go straight to Tywin instead.

 

Seriously. I've said it before, I know, but how else did she get into Tywin's bed so fast? She was already in it, in the camp. There was no ginger-haired "cunt," there was Tywin and a bag of money. Bronn and Shae were both for sale to the highest bidder, but Bronn was honest about it, so Tyrion never held it against him. Shae tried to have it both ways. She insisted that she should be more than just a whore to Tyrion, and she was. She was also his father's agent and informer. Pretty sure that whole "let's run away" thing was just a test--had Tyrion said yes she'd have gone straight to Tywin with that, too.

[Hecate7]

Jaime never wronged Tyrion on the show. If anything, Tyrion wronged him. I wonder how that will impact their relationship this season, if at all.

I'm not sure how Shae really owed Tyrion any more than Bronn did. They were both his employees no matter how Tyrion deluded himself. Book Tyrion was quite bitter at Sansa as well, though I doubt they'll go there on the show.

 

When was Tyrion ever bitter at Sansa? I don't think he had the slightest bitterness against her, even when he thought she might have had something to do with framing him for murder.

[Winnief]

Interesting piece..

 

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-premiere-running-time-revealed-cast-talks-moving-without-books/

 

Sounds like we're definitely getting Theon's jump from the tower this season...as for Sansa I get goose bumps wondering what will happen there.  I wouldn't be surprised if we see her turn on Baelish this season.

 

Also this one is VERY interesting...

 

 

http://watchersonthewall.com/characters-never-met-will-crossing-paths-storyline-says-alfie-allen/

 

A LOT of commentators there think this means that Sansa's on her way to Winterfell, (possibly as Ramsay's potential bride,) but I'm not so sure. I just can't imagine LF OR Cersei letting that happen and Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion.  (For now.) Unless it's Sansa meeting up with Stannis and crew at the Wall somehow before they find Theon.  I wonder if AA could be talking about one of Robb's bannermen, (like Great Jon.)  Or possibly even one of the Frey's. He's definitely meeting Stannis and Melisandre for sure

 

I do agree though that it sounds like Sansa will be meeting some people she hasn't met (yet) in the books which I think definitely includes Brienne.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Winnief

[Advance35]

Well ST's statements make it sound like the conclusion of Sansa's storyline for Season 5 will leave her  at a bit of a cliffhanger or maybe even a crossroads would be a better description.   What that crossroads is, I can't imagine.    I assume Sansa will cross paths with Brienne and Pod but I don't think they count as new, as she's been in scenes with BOTH while she was in Kings Landing.  

 

I don't know if it will be as the bride but maybe she will interact with Roose and Ramsay as Alayne Stone, maybe LF will be broaching the subject of Northern Independence with current Warden's House Bolton.   For some reason I don't see Sansa turning on Baelish, I don't know why, I know many fans think she's DESTINED to turn on him but I don't for some reason.

[Winnief]

Well the reason a lot of people think it's Sansa's destiny to turn on Baelish is because she's prophesized to "slay the giant" and Baelish's family symbol (before he changed it to the Mockingbird,) was a Titan.  Admittedly prophecy in ASOIAF is always murky and open for interpretation, but that was always my read as well.

 

Another possible meeting is Sansa/Blackfish.  There's gotta be a reason they had him escape, and him going to the Vale, (a place where has friends/contacts because of his time as the Knight of the Bloody Gate AND where his Great Nephew happens to be the liege lord) would make perfect sense as not only a base to hide out, but to plot vengeance.  And Sansa/Blackfish could be an interesting combo especially if anything unfortunate happened to Edmure since Sansa with her Tully features and First Men Blood would (to the Blackfish's eyes) be the perfect person to rally behind as the rightful new Heir to Riverrun. 

 

Other possible meetings include Sansa/Gendry, the High Sparrow/Sand Snake, High Sparrow/a Tyrell, Sansa/Hill tribe leaders, Theon/Walder Frey, Theon/Rickon, (it was Bran he interacted with before not the little feral child) a possible re-appearance of Benjen Stark, (I don't consider it likely but its possible and it would certainly be a left curve!)  Tyrion or Varys might well cross paths with Arya, (though the latter seems more likely-I could seem him going to Braavos to recruit the Gold Company on Dany's behalf,)  Tycho Nestorris/Theon or Tycho and almost anybody in KL, (besides Cersei of course.)  Hell I suppose Theon/Jon Snow might count since while the two of them shared screentime, it wasn't very much time together.  In fact now I'm trying to think if we ever saw Theon on screen at the same time as Sansa-even in background shots.  Theon was always around the Stark men, but I can't remember a single scene with him and Sansa together. 

 

We already know we're getting Jaime/Doran, Bronn/Sand Snakes, Arya/Meryn Trant/Mace Tyrell, and Olenna/Baelish for sure. 

[Danny Franks]

If Benioff & Weiss just dumped all the Harry Hardyng stuff and moved Sansa forward more quickly, getting her away from Baelish and back to the North, I'd applaud them. They have to use a chainsaw to hack their way through GRRM's tangled plots and glacial pacing. Plus, seeing Jon and Sansa in scenes together would be really nice, given that they've never had any in the books or the show.

 

I'm still really fucking annoyed that they seem to have omitted Arianne and Arys Oakheart, because the Dorne stuff and the Jaime stuff was about all there was to like on AFFC. But if it also means they're cutting the fucking Ironborn, then I'll live with it.

[SeanC]

If Benioff & Weiss just dumped all the Harry Hardyng stuff and moved Sansa forward more quickly, getting her away from Baelish and back to the North, I'd applaud them. 

I wouldn't, because it's a ludicrous plot idea, and goes against the whole logic of her situation.  And she's been foreshadowed to be Littlefinger's downfall, so moving her away from him doesn't make much sense either.

[Winnief]

I wouldn't, because it's a ludicrous plot idea, and goes against the whole logic of her situation.  And she's been foreshadowed to be Littlefinger's downfall, so moving her away from him doesn't make much sense either.

 

 

Just to play Devil's advocate here SeanC, it's entirely possible for Sansa to contribute to LF's downfall from afar  just as Tywin defeated Robb Stark via quills and paper.  But I don't think that's how they'll play it here.  D&D just won't be able to resist having the final showdown take place in person; bad enough we never got to see Robb/Tywin in action, Dany/Tywin, or for that matter Tywin/Stannis.  Whether we get Stannis/Dany of course all depends on if and when Stannis dies in the series, if that should take place before Dany's arrival-even with the show, setting it up for Dany to reach Westeros by Season 6, there's no guarantee Stannis survives that long.  Indeed it's entirely possible that certain plot elements we don't even know about may well depend on his death or maybe they depend on his continued presence.  That one's really up in the air.

 

I *do* consider it likely that Sansa might be headed North by the end of this season or the beginning of Season 6, but NOT because of any nonsense about a marriage to Ramsay. 

Edited February 22, 2015 by Winnief

[Danny Franks]

I wouldn't, because it's a ludicrous plot idea, and goes against the whole logic of her situation.  And she's been foreshadowed to be Littlefinger's downfall, so moving her away from him doesn't make much sense either.

 

I meant bring Baelish down within about three episodes and move the fuck on, instead of endless scenes of him creeping on her and her dealing with Sweetrobin's tantrums while nothing happens. The one thing this show usually does is get plots moving. Sometimes too fast, but on this occasion, it wouldn't be fast enough for me.

 

Oh, I forgot, Baelish is the evil mastermind, muahahah-ing away in the background and outsmarting everyone, all the time. No way he gets taken down for another couple of seasons, right? How many more accents can Gillen chew his way through in that time?

 

This fifth season needs to tie up Meereen, get Tyrion into Dany's company (if that's where he's heading. If it's not, then that's another dead-end plot), Reveal the Martells as playing that long game with the Targaryens (hopefully ignoring Aegon, because that's perhaps the dumbest move GRRM made in the whole series, to introduce a character who achieves in a single book what Dany has failed to do in five), put Jon in charge of the Nights Watch and stage the murder attempt, set Stannis against the Boltons. Oh, and they need to figure out what the point of Arya in Braavos is supposed to be. So moving Sansa along to actually doing something consequential would be rather advantageous too.

[Avaleigh]

I think Sansa will connect with the Blackfish somehow. I'm trying to figure out what Sansa and Brienne running into each other would bring to the table. They journey on to Winterfell? Brienne is to Sansa what she was to Catelyn? I guess, it just feels too simple to me somehow. 

 

A Sansa and Theon scene could definitely be interesting though.

 

Plus, seeing Jon and Sansa in scenes together would be really nice, given that they've never had any in the books or the show.

Danny I voted up your post because I agree with this and also with your comments on Arianne. I don't expect any Jon/Sansa scenes this season but I'd be more than happy if we find out by the end of the season that Sansa is headed North. Ideally they'll cross paths again eventually. 

 

As for Littlefinger being in the picture--I see them more or less tied together for the duration of TWoW if not longer.

[Winnief]

This fifth season needs to tie up Meereen, get Tyrion into Dany's company (if that's where he's heading. If it's not, then that's another dead-end plot), Reveal the Martells as playing that long game with the Targaryens (hopefully ignoring Aegon, because that's perhaps the dumbest move GRRM made in the whole series, to introduce a character who achieves in a single book what Dany has failed to do in five), put Jon in charge of the Nights Watch and stage the murder attempt, set Stannis against the Boltons. Oh, and they need to figure out what the point of Arya in Braavos is supposed to be. So moving Sansa along to actually doing something consequential would be rather advantageous too

 

 

Well it's been all but confirmed that fAegon and Arianne are both out, and Jaime's presence in Dorne and all the emphasis on the sand snakes suggests they're planning *something* important there. 

 

Also we know for a fact from episode stills that Tyrion is going to meet Dany in person, and I'd bet money he's going to be giving her the speech he gave Griff about how NOW is the time to invade Westeros and that Dany will do just that in Season Six.  (No 800 page detour to the Dothraki sea for another voyage of self discovery here!) 

 

As for Arya, it looks like they're already taking steps to have her story intersect with what's happening in KL-from the stills I'd say her Mercy scene murder is going to take place only with Meryn Trant in the role of Raff the sweetling and with Mace Tyrell being the one sent to Braavos to negotiate with the Iron Bank, that opens up a lot of possibilities.  The Iron Bank almost surely has the faceless men on retainer and Arya's murder of Meryn could have a ripple effect-or she might even interact somehow with some of the rest of the party from the Red Keep.  Time will tell.  For that matter I wouldn't be surprised if Varys paid a visit to Braavos for some reason (negotiating with the Gold Company to get them to support Dany perhaps?!?) before heading back to KL. 

 

Casting references to Cotter Pyke and others demonstrate that Jon's being chosen for LC is definitely happening this season and I'm almost certain we'll see the Battle of Winterfell as well.

 

Now, while I *think* Sansa's gonna be headed up North at some point, I'd guess that would happen towards the end of the season or maybe season 6.  I do think we'll see some important developments take place with her this season, from TWOW territory, that will be paving the way for future events; and may well have an impact far beyond the Vale but affect the Riverlands and/or KL.  (The former is especially likely if Sansa *does* meet up with the Blackfish.)

 

Personally, my theory is that Sansa is the YMBQ, so I'll be looking to see if there are any hints next season to that effect after we get Cersei's dream.  Of course, there are plenty of other candidates for that job as well, (ESPECIALLY a certain dragon queen,) so I may also look to developments next season that could disprove that hypothesis.  But I am quite certain that Season Five will be seeing BOTH Stark sisters do training/groundwork for their eventual destined roles whatever those may be.

 

For the record, while I consider Theon/Sansa unlikely in the extreme, it might actually make for some good drama, and AA and ST could act the hell out of it.  But the schematics are against it I think.

[Advance35]

Well the reason a lot of people think it's Sansa's destiny to turn on Baelish is because she's prophesized to "slay the giant" and Baelish's family symbol (before he changed it to the Mockingbird,) was a Titan.  Admittedly prophecy in ASOIAF is always murky and open for interpretation, but that was always my read as well.

 

 

I know it's a popular theory and I reserve the right to be wrong, but I've just never seen it myself.   I feel like LF/Sansa are going to go a different way.   I see it more outside forces bringing Baelish down, if he in fact doesn't survive the series.   And Sansa turning on him NOT because of anything he did to her family but because his star is no longer on the rise or it's no longer to her advantage to be in league with him.

 

But I do think Sansa's future is going to be an advantageous marriage of some kind, she'll just approach the arrangement much more pragmatically and with some agency this go round.   I'm not convinced Harry the Heir won't factor into Sansa's storyline in a meaningful way, the show runners have pushed back or delayed the entrance of prominent characters before.

[Avaleigh]

Personally, my theory is that Sansa is the YMBQ, so I'll be looking to see if there are any hints next season to that effect after we get Cersei's dream.  Of course, there are plenty of other candidates for that job as well, (ESPECIALLY a certain dragon queen,) so I may also look to developments next season that could disprove that hypothesis.  But I am quite certain that Season Five will be seeing BOTH Stark sisters do training/groundwork for their eventual destined roles whatever those may be.

I'm curious to see if the wording of the prophecy will be different in any way. I'm sure that YMBQ will stay the same but I wonder if they'll use the word valonqar or explicitly say "little brother"? Or what if it's changed to be more vague and it's something like before another chokes the life out of you?  

 

Do the Unsullied know that Cersei is older than Jaime?  

[Winnief]

 

Do the Unsullied know that Cersei is older than Jaime?

 

I don't think its ever come up-but they might very well mention it on the show at some point next season ....or they could just change it to 'brother.'