Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Domenicholas]

What if the show runners change the Fake Arya story around somehow?

 

Rather than sending Jeyne Poole as Arya to appease the Boltons and strengthen their claim, what if the Boltons have Myranda or whomever they have pretend to be Arya themselves?  This way, the Northern folk can still rally around Stannis to save "Arya", plus it may convince her living brothers to come rescue her, where the Boltons can slaughter them.  Theon can either save the girl if she is an unknown victim, or warn the Starks and their loyalists that its a trap.

[Constantinople]

Fake Arya candidates:

 

1. Jeyne Poole: I think this makes the most sense in the context of the story.  While Theon/Reek is at Wintefell, there is someone that Theon recognizes from Winterfell pre-Reek.  However, in the TV show the character herself appeared for about a millisecond and was essentially an extra.  Recasting shouldn't be an issue given how briefly the S1 Jeyne appeared -- compare S1 Finale Jaqen with S2 Jaqen -- but the TPTB will need to provide a little bit of background, either through some exposition or a cheesy flashback, to explain how Theon knows her.

 

Either that or have someone who is essentially a Jeyne character, that is, someone Theon recognizes from the "old days".  But in that case, they may as well name the character Jeyne (or Jane since I find the alterntative spellings a bit precious).

 

2. Random girl: If this is someone Theon never knew before, I don't know why he would care so much or why it would trigger a reaction in him.

 

3. Myranda: Given that Theon has seen her willingly and gleefully participate with Ramsay, I don't think he's likely to care what happens to her.  Just another Reek timeline person he met who eventually regretted knowing Ramsay.  Plus, as others have noted, I'm not sure how much the audience will care.

 

Note: Changing status from non-book reader to book reader, although I only just read them, lightning fast, so I've probably missed a quite a lot and/or am making unwarranted assumptions.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Constantinople

[Holmbo]

Since the fan sites are reporting a casting of a young woman in the role for "winterfell worker" for next season
http://watchersonthewall.com/mishael-lopes-cardozo-cast-game-thrones-season-5/
I think it's close to confirmed we'll get a fArya that is not Myranda. If she will be Jeyne Poole or just some poor girl they picked up from a nearby village is probaly not something we will know until next season airs.

[ElizaD]

If they want a Jeyne that could be the "Boy"-style name they're using, but it's also possible that the girl is just a random servant (the actress looks like Jeyne, but GOT is her only listed appearance and to me that suggests someone more likely to get cast in a minor role).

 

It looks like Varys will accompany Tyrion until episode 5 where that new brothel guard appears.

 

Braavos set photos. Mace, Tycho, Arya in a new dress and spotting Trant.

[Pickles Aplenty]

Thank god Arya gets to change clothes.

[Winnief]

 

 

Since the fan sites are reporting a casting of a young woman in the role for "winterfell worker" for next season

http://watchersonthe...rones-season-5/

I think it's close to confirmed we'll get a fArya that is not Myranda. If she will be Jeyne Poole or just some poor girl they picked up from a nearby village is probaly not something we will know until next season airs.

 

So they're going with fArya then?!?  Could be a random Winterfell servant or Jeyne, but either way it's actually likely Theon *would* know her and thus help trigger his redemption storyline something I look forward to.

 

LOVE the pics from Braavos-seeing Arya kill Trant is something else I'm excited for, and I'm curious to see what might happen to Mace over there-and if Arya doesn't catch a ride back to Westeros on his ship.

[benteen]

I could definitely live with a random servant girl from Winterfell.  So long as it's not Myranda.  Curious though, the one time that Jeyne was mentioned, was it at Winterfell or in King's Landing?

 

I definitely like sending Mace to Braavos and having Arya kill Trant.

[Lady S.]

Constantinople, it's a welcome surprise to see you in here.

 

So, Charles Dance basically confirmed he'll be back for Tywin's funeral. I'm assuming we'll miss Cersei's reaction to finding Shae's body in his bed, which led to some foreshadowing/exposition of what Tywin did to Tytos's mistress, since the bells ringing in the finale seem to indicate Cersei was already awake for all that.

[Hecate7]

Constantinople, it's a welcome surprise to see you in here.

 

So, Charles Dance basically confirmed he'll be back for Tywin's funeral. I'm assuming we'll miss Cersei's reaction to finding Shae's body in his bed, which led to some foreshadowing/exposition of what Tywin did to Tytos's mistress, since the bells ringing in the finale seem to indicate Cersei was already awake for all that.

Why would we miss that? Is Cersei not appearing til mid season or something? I think that's a vital scene. Just because we got to hear the bells ringing as Varys decided to get on the boat, doesn't mean they can't back up and show us Cersei's POV.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Hecate7

[Holmbo]

I could definitely live with a random servant girl from Winterfell.  So long as it's not Myranda.  Curious though, the one time that Jeyne was mentioned, was it at Winterfell or in King's Landing?

 

She was mentioned by Sansa in a conversation with her septa. Sansa brought up the possibility that she might only have daughters pointing out that Jeyne Poole's mother had five daughters.

I was gonna write that I don't see any reason for her not to be Jeyne Poole in the show, just changing her back story to having not gone to Kingslanding. But then I realized that in that case she would have been in Winterfell when Theon invaded it and killed Ser Rodrick and (as far as all the Winterfell staff knows) Bran and Rickon. So she'd have no reason to trust him or think that he would help him. It could be an interesting dynamic though if she hated him but then because Ramsay was so horrible to her and she could see Theon symphatising with her she'd get desperate enough to beg him to help her. And her putting her trust in him despite all that he done might give Theon the will to make a break from Ramsay.

But all that just seems overly confusing. Probably better just have her be an innocent girl whom Theon feels bad for because he identifies with her as a victim of Ramsay's cruelty.

I'm very much looking forward to that story line next season. I hope they keep Mance infiltrating the castle and the mystery of who's killing the people. The only thing I'm not looking forward to is the gross parts. I'm hoping the show tones it down but I'm not betting on it because when has they toned anything down? Very selldom. Though they did have that prostitute wearing clothes when she was being chased last season. So that's a good sign at least.

[benteen]

They've really toned down Ramsay's sexual violence.  It was speculated they might have cut something between him and Myranda (one trailer shot I believe had him slapping her during sex) after the negative feedback they got over the Jaime/Cersei scene.  Though I suspect you'll start seeing more of Ramsay's sexual cruelty...hopefully not as overtly as it was in the book.  They are going to have to develop that a little bit to put over Theon wanting to save her.

[Hecate7]

They really don't get it at all.

 

Villains like Joffrey and Ramsay, who have been established as sexual sadists and sociopathic villains, can rape whomever they want, because it's one more thing to hate about them. Besides, showing people who get off on flaying people having normal, consensual sex strains credibility. This guy gets off on having his dogs eat women. He's not going to be having nice normal sex, at least not for very long. Perhaps he and Myranda were coasting on a leftover high from killing Myranda together, but I had a really hard time buying it. 

 

However, people like Oberyn, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon Snow must not rape anyone, at least not knowingly, because we sort of love them. We do not want to see characters we sort of love raping people. We can forgive them for acts of violence performed in self defense or to protect a loved one, or for lying or turning a blind eye to something they couldn't really do anything about anyway. But we cannot forgive rape, because there's no life or death reason for doing it.

[Winnief]

Good point, Hectate7, but I for one would prefer *not* to see too much of Ramsay's abuse of fArya on screen.  It was hard enough to read about, and we all know enough about Ramsay on the show by now to realize why marriage to him for anyone who wasn't another sadist, (like Miranda) would be sheer hell.  They can just leave a lot of that to the imagination.

[Lady S.]

However, people like Oberyn, Jaime, Tyrion, and Jon Snow must not rape anyone, at least not knowingly, because we sort of love them. We do not want to see characters we sort of love raping people. 

I was gonna joke that you should tell GRRM that in regards to Tyrion, but I guess the encounter with the sex slave in Dance might not count as knowingly raping someone. But even the Elder Brother told Brienne he used to take women by force before finding religion so perhaps rape can be redeemed in ASOIAF, who knows. 

 

They've really toned down Ramsay's sexual violence.  It was speculated they might have cut something between him and Myranda (one trailer shot I believe had him slapping her during sex) after the negative feedback they got over the Jaime/Cersei scene.  

I think it was her slapping him actually. I'm sure that footage was just cut for time, from what BCogs said a lot of the ironborn/Dreadfort sequence ended up on the cutting room floor. TPTB still don't seem to recognize a problem with the show's rapeyness, so I doubt they'd edit anything for that reason.

[Hecate7]

I was gonna joke that you should tell GRRM that in regards to Tyrion, but I guess the encounter with the sex slave in Dance might not count as knowingly raping someone. But even the Elder Brother told Brienne he used to take women by force before finding religion so perhaps rape can be redeemed in ASOIAF, who knows.

I don't think Tyrion realizes that it could be rape. The girl is there to get paid, not to enjoy sex with her customer, and so I think he may simply assume that it doesn't matter at all how she feels about it, since he did give her the money and she did take it. Had she said, "please, take your money back, I can't do this," it would be more unambiguous.

[benteen]

I'm pretty sure the clip was Ramsay slapping Myranda.  I can't remember what trailer it was though.

[Lady S.]

I don't think Tyrion realizes that it could be rape. The girl is there to get paid, not to enjoy sex with her customer, and so I think he may simply assume that it doesn't matter at all how she feels about it, since he did give her the money and she did take it. Had she said, "please, take your money back, I can't do this," it would be more unambiguous.

She was a slave, I'd think that meant her masters were the ones keeping the money, and no shared language means she couldn't communicate one way or the other. But I take your point, Tyrion probably wouldn't have thought of it as rape, though he did challenge Illyrio on the willingness of the servants he offered.

 

Anyway, found the missing Ramsay/Myranda bit from the trailer:

[ElizaD]

"The whores of Lannisport and King’s Landing were free women. Their sisters of Selhorys were slaves, their bondage indicated by the tears tattooed beneath their right eyes."

 

"The whore was looking at his noseless face with revulsion in her eyes. “Do I offend you, sweet-ling? I am an offensive creature, as my father would be glad to tell you if he were not dead and rotting.” Though she did look Westerosi, the girl spoke not a word of the Common Tongue. Perhaps she was captured by some slaver as a child."

 

"He rolled off feeling more ashamed than sated. This was a mistake. What a wretched creature I’ve become. “Do you know a woman by the name of Tysha?” he asked, as he watched his seed dribble out of her onto the bed. The whore did not respond. “Do you know where whores go?” She did not answer that one either. Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me."

 

"The whore cried out in distress. They will blame her for this, he realized, ashamed. “Cut off my head and take it to King’s Landing,” Tyrion urged her. “My sister will make a lady of you, and no one will ever whip you again.” She did not understand that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least."

 

Tyrion might not call it rape, but he recognized that it was disgusting behavior even if he wasn't willing to admit what it really is to have sex with an obviously disgusted slave who can't say no without being punished. It was an absolute low point for him to abuse the eastern Jeyne Poole, a slave too broken to have any fight left as he notes to himself before doing it again (so ignorance isn't an excuse). I'd rather see the scene completely cut than turned into chaste, chivalrous Show Tyrion chatting with a merry hooker with a heart of gold, but based on casting news that's what we'll get.

Edited September 22, 2014 by ElizaD

[SFoster21]

Am I the only one who noticed that all though winter was finally here in the books, snow blanketing Winterfell, etc., it hadn't been present at all on the show?

[Holmbo]

Am I the only one who noticed that all though winter was finally here in the books, snow blanketing Winterfell, etc., it hadn't been present at all on the show?

I've notice that too. No winter yet (apart from in the Eiyre). I think that just as with most things on the show, they will not bring in winter until it's needed for the plot. I could see it arriving in the north next season.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion is definitely one of the more enlightened male characters when it comes to issues like sex and rape. He knew it would be wrong to rape Sansa and he understood that her being his legal wife and "a woman grown" made no difference to the fact that it would have been wrong to consummate the marriage even though she indicated that she was willing to go through with it.

 

IMO Tyrion knew that he was wrong to treat that prostitute the way that he did and I think some part of him does actually understand that it is indeed rape and that the girl has no choice in the matter. He just doesn't care because he's still in a boozy and dangerous state but I don't think he's unaware of how disgusting his behavior is. I also don't think he would have been capable of it prior to the business with Shae and Tywin.  

[benteen]

Despite being enlightened and well-educated, Tyrion is also a deeply misogynistic individual.  I remember when I first started reading the books thinking that an intellectual woman would appeal to him but after five books, it's clear he only wants a woman who is devoted to him.  Brains aren't a huge concern.

[Hecate7]

Despite being enlightened and well-educated, Tyrion is also a deeply misogynistic individual.  I remember when I first started reading the books thinking that an intellectual woman would appeal to him but after five books, it's clear he only wants a woman who is devoted to him.  Brains aren't a huge concern.

They're really not for any of the men in this series, but we have not yet in fact seen Tyrion confronted with an intellectual woman. He's never actually had any discourse with any. Sansa's as close as it got. There was Lady Olenna but when they talked she had pretty much already determined to frame him for murder, so there really wasn't any possibility of a friendship, let alone a dalliance.

 

The intellectual women are Shireen Baratheon, (in the first place she's Arya's age and in the second place he's never met her), Olenna, (more than three times his age and framing him for murder), and possibly Septa Lemore.

 

I think a woman has to have at least Sansa's level of intelligence to interest Tyrion at all. Shae was shallow, but she was actually rather intelligent. Sansa is smarter than anyone gives her credit for, and the thing Tyrion first admired in her was that she was intelligent enough to hide her true feelings about Joffrey. He admired that as much as her beauty.

 

I also don't think he would have been capable of it prior to the business with Shae and Tywin.

Me, either.

[Avaleigh]

I would say that Catelyn was an intelligent woman with whom Tyrion interacted. Yes, she did some things that were stupid and reckless IMO but I've never personally questioned her level of intelligence. 

[Constantinople]

They're really not for any of the men in this series, but we have not yet in fact seen Tyrion confronted with an intellectual woman.

Tyrion has had the benefit of the Lannisters wealth, power and position his entire life (until he was arrested for Joffrey's murder). If there's something he wants, he doesn't have to wait to be confronted by it, he can seek it out. If he hasn't met any intelligent women in either Casterly Rock or King's Landing, it's because he hasn't tried.

That being said, although Tyrion is a bookworm, I'm not sure how interested he is in intellectual discussion or debate. Given his druthers, he hangs out with whores and sellwords.

Constantinople, it's a welcome surprise to see you in here.

Thanks.

[Avaleigh]

I think Tyrion seems to prefer being the smartest and richest person in the room. 

[SFoster21]

Well, in his defense, he has a lot of compensating to do.

[BookEater]

I'd like to add another intelligent woman to the list, Genna Lannister. She would've been a fairly regular presence in his life, perhaps one of the most influential women of his adolescence and Tyrion himself seems to regard her very highly. Granted he wouldn't want to form a romantic attachment to her, but I think she'd set the bar when a young Tyrion started thinking about what qualities he liked in girls.

But I think the problem with Tyrion is he has no self-confidence, just a lot of bravado. Had he been raised in a more nurturing environment he'd probably look for more of an intellectual equal in a partner, of course he'd want to be physically attracted to her as well, but her mind wouldn't be so far down the list as it currently is.

His relationships with women seem to be tied up in self-loathing and self-pity and I'd say a huge inferiority complex, couple that with his Lannister superiority complex and he makes for a fascinating if infuriating read.

[Holmbo]

I think Tyrion likes to hang out with people he pays. Either because he thinks it makes them like him or because he wants to be the superior one in the relationship. I'm not sure how he would react to an intelligent woman. He did seem to admire Alayaya for learning to read. If they would have interacted any more times they might have had some book discussions. I can't see where he would have been supposed to find an intelligent woman to talk to though. In this society men and women are not supposed to interact much except if they're married or closely related. Except if they're servants or prostitutes and though they might be smart they'd probably have a pretty limited world view, not knowing how to read and most often never having been farther away from home than the neighboring village.
It's to bad GRRM didn't make Penny more intelligent. She must have seen a lot of interesting things, she's been all over Westeros and Essos it seems.

[Constantinople]

Speaking of Genna, I think it's a shame that in Season 2 (Clash of Kings), the TV show changed Jamie's escape attempt from Tyrion sneaking in an escape crew as part of an envoy's entourage to Jaime killing his cousin to distract his Karstark guard (and not because it made Jaime look bad).

 

Genna told Jaime that Tyrion was Tywin's true son in the sense that Tyrion was most like Tywin (which frosted Jaime's chaps a bit).

 

Tyrion's plan strikes me as a bit skeevy.  It's not the Red Wedding, and it may not rise to violating guest right, but in the general scheme of things it doesn't seem to be a whole lot better.  It violates the principle of envoy neutrality.  Not only does it make Tyrion totally untrustworthy, but it contributes to the break down of civil society because there's no safe way of conducting negotiations.  But Tyrion wants to win now so doesn't appear to give a damn about the consequences.

 

In that sense, I think Tyrion is Tywin's son.

 

But it was cut from the show, which is disappointing.  Particularly since I think the book escape attempt need have been any more elaborate from a production standpoint than the TV escape attempt.  Most of it, if not all of it, could have been done via exposition and some bodies hanging from trees.  I think in the book Jaime was being held prisoner at Riverrun, not in Robb's camp, but I don't think that would be a stumbling block either.

[BookEater]

The shows always gotten into a muddle with Jaime and Tyrion, having Jaime do things he didn't and wouldn't do (kinslaying and raping Cersei). Yet adamantly refusing to let Tyrion dirty his hands too much. There's a whole array of book material ranging from the morally ambiguous to the downright disgusting that got cut or twisted so he came out of it looking better.

[Hecate7]

Tyrion has had the benefit of the Lannisters wealth, power and position his entire life (until he was arrested for Joffrey's murder). If there's something he wants, he doesn't have to wait to be confronted by it, he can seek it out. If he hasn't met any intelligent women in either Casterly Rock or King's Landing, it's because he hasn't tried.

 

 

The Lannister wealth means he can afford whores. Lannister influence means women can be forced to marry him. Neither of these things makes anyone a willing bed partner. Tyrion is smart enough to know he can't have that.

 

Nobody is attracted to brains. Nobody has ever met Tyrion and thought, "wow, what an intelligent person. I want him in my bed." So why on earth are we expecting Tyrion to develop an interest in a woman, based on her intelligence alone?

 

Tyrion probably has never met Genna, except very briefly. I'm not sure what qualified her to have an opinion on Jaime or Tyrion, really, since she was married off to Emmon Frey before either of them were born.

 

Even if Tywin hadn't forbidden Tyrion to travel, (which he did), or to marry anyone not personally picked out by Tywin (which he also did), Tyrion would never have met an "intellectual" woman. They don't exist in this world. The lone female whose intelligence could be said to match Tyrion's is three times his age, and framing him for murder. The other potential candidate is 9 years old and locked in a tower. In order to meet them, or any other possible candidates, Tyrion would have to travel, which he would have to sacrifice his wealth and influence to do. So he wouldn't be able to travel, because he couldn't afford it. And he wouldn't have anything to offer once he got there. And it would be pointless. Neither candidate would be quivering with desire just because Tyrion can win at cyvasse.

 

Sex is about sex. So people get turned on by sexually desirable people. The brainiest woman is still going to want Jaime, not Tyrion. The ugliest woman is still going to prefer Jaime over Tyrion. So why is it such a sin for Tyrion to prefer physically attractive women over ugly ones? There are only two women in all the world who have ever been interested in Tyrion: Lollys Stokeworth, and Penny.

 

Lollys is plump, most likely suffers from Down's syndrome, and in all likelihood likes Tyrion because of something nice he did when they were kids that neither one of them remembers anymore. Penny is a dwarf, like Tyrion. She is of normal intelligence, or perhaps she is above normal and her station in life precluded her developing her intelligence the way Tyrion did his. Either way, Tyrion can't seem to see her as an equal because she's a slave and because she's not a beautiful woman. She probably likes Tyrion mainly because he is a dwarf like her, and she imagines they would be compatible. While I sympathize with both, and probably resemble both more than the women Tyrion looks at, I cannot fault Tyrion for not falling in love with either one of these girls. Nobody else in the books is falling in love with them, either.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Hecate7

[GreyBunny]

Tyrion probably has never met Genna, except very briefly. I'm not sure what qualified her to have an opinion on Jaime or Tyrion, really, since she was married off to Emmon Frey before either of them were born.

Genna took on a maternal role to them after Joanna's death.  She knew them both quite well. 

 

Genna:  "Jaime, sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast."

She was married to a Frey but Genna ruled the roost.  If she wanted to travel to Casterly Rock sometimes and visit her relatives, she would just do it and not ask permission.  If she wasn't qualified to speak about Jaime and Tyrion and their relationship to Tywin and give information about Tyrion's other uncles and relatives, I doubt Martin would have put her paragraphs in there.  (Yes, I know, he uses unreliable narrators, but I don't think Genna is one of them.)

 

There are only two women in all the world who have ever been interested in Tyrion: Lollys Stokeworth, and Penny.

 

And Tysha.

Edited September 25, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Avaleigh]

So why is it such a sin for Tyrion to prefer physically attractive women over ugly ones?

It's not so much that it's a a huge sin or that it isn't partially understandable. The thing that gets me with Tyrion is that he wants beautiful women to see past his appearance and acknowledge the qualities he has in his favor like his intelligence, but at the same time he doesn't seem like he's willing to look past the appearance of a person like Penny. What Tyrion wants people to do for him, I'm not especially convinced that he's capable of doing that himself.

[Constantinople]

The Lannister wealth means he can afford whores. Lannister influence means women can be forced to marry him. Neither of these things makes anyone a willing bed partner. Tyrion is smart enough to know he can't have that.

Nobody is attracted to brains. Nobody has ever met Tyrion and thought, "wow, what an intelligent person. I want him in my bed." So why on earth are we expecting Tyrion to develop an interest in a woman, based on her intelligence alone?

I apologize for my lack of clarity.

I wasn't trying to limit my comments merely to Tyrion's lovers or prospective lovers.

Although Tyrion likes to read, I don't think he's particularly interested in intellectual pursuits or intellectual companionship, whether from friends or lovers of whatever sex. Therefore, I don't think Tyrion's is being misogynistic by not seeking female intellectual companionship.

No one claims, nor does he claim, that Tyrion is a a scholar, nor has he done anything to develop the arts, sciences, etc. I think he tutored Aegon briefly on that slow boat to Volantis, but I think that was as much to pass the time as anything else. Tyrion's most recent contribution to philosophy was to ponder, ad nauseam, where did whores go.

You mentioned that Septa Lemore might be one of the intellectual women. If so, Tyrion wouldn't be the one to find out. My primary memories of Tyrion & Lemore aren't of long theological discussions going into the night as they drifted down river, but of Tyrion ogling her tits when she bathed and jerking off to her later.

 

Even if Tywin hadn't forbidden Tyrion to travel, (which he did)...

I thought Tywin only put the kibosh on visiting Essos. Tyrion did, after all, visit the Wall, and I don't see why Tywin would object to Tyrion visiting Oldtown, and probably would have been thrilled had Tyrion become a maester.

In any case, Tyrion has spent a lot of time in King's Landing. King's Landing may not be a university town, but given that it's the capital, a trading city and one of the largest cities in Westeros, if not the largest, and given that Game of Thrones is broadly based on England or Northeastern Europe of the Late Middle ages, it doesn't seem credible that KL is a total intellectual wasteland. It's just a part of KL that doesn't interest Tyrion.

 

...Tyrion would never have met an "intellectual" woman. They don't exist in this world....

That may be, but I don't know that we can say that with certainty. After all, theoretically the elite of Westeros is a world of knights and ladies, yet we know of Arya, Brienne, TV Yara (Book Something else, I think), the Mormont women. So it's not out of question that there would be some women interested in a life of the mind.

[GreyBunny]

Sarella is posing as a man at the Citadel and earning her links.  I'd count her as an intellectual. 

 

Tyrion never directly said he was a scholar but I think he's genuinely scholarly:

 

 

 

To Jon Snow:  “My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer and I have my mind...and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone if it is to keep its edge. That's why I read so much..."

 

His mind is his only weapon, aside from family connections (which he no longer has).

Edited September 25, 2014 by GreyBunny

[ElizaD]

Tyrion about Catelyn: "Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned shewolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction." (Of course Show Tyrion respects her instead.) I think this is a pretty good quote that shows his general attitude: he's proud of his cunning because it's his weapon, something he does better than most people despite his dwarfism, and at the same time he's like Tywin with his fear of being laughed at. He's invested so much of his identity and his sense of superiority in his wit that he can't stand not being on top. So he doesn't look for intelligent company as much as entertainingly quippy and sassy company from sellswords and prostitutes who can be hit and put in their place the moment their sassiness exceeds what he considers acceptable. He doesn't want challenges (as he thinks about Septa Lemora, "I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her.") but comfort. People like what they like, and that would be fine if Tyrion wasn't such a classic hypocrite about it: he whines about how shallow women are when he only wants the Westerosi equivalent of an adoring supermodel and has no problem with being vicious about the appeal of women who don't match his standard of beauty, like gang-rape victim Lollys. It's very do as I say, not as I do and he has no self-awareness about it. If he insists on being entitled to a maiden of 100% in both beauty and lineage and turns to prostitutes when he can't have that (instead of, say, searching for a maiden of 40% lineage or a merchant's widow of 70% beauty), of course no one is going to look past his appearance the way he wants; he's not making an effort or giving them reasons to do so. It's understandable why Tyrion acts that way, after Tywin arranged for the end of the Tysha marriage to be as traumatizing as possible, but I still find this particular brand of self-pity annoying to read about.

 

In general, I don't associate ASOIAF with love, romance or shipping. There are sex scenes, but they tend to be either emotionless or poorly written. Ned and Cat had a good marriage, but we see little of it. Jaime and Cersei are probably the most prominent couple, and their toxic relationship starts falling apart pretty much the moment they're reunited. I guess there's Jon and Ygritte, but that relationship wasn't interesting to me; when she died, that was the end of romance and a return to sex as manipulation, volence or purely physical desire. People liking and yearning and being passionate about each other seems like it's mostly ignored: if it makes any sense, I feel that there's something so sexless about the characters in general and the sex scenes even when they're meant to be about desire. For example, Dany and Daario: obviously she wants him, but nothing in the writing really convinces as a portrayal of what it feels like to ditch caution and give in to your hormones. I can tell that it's what she's doing, but it's written in a way that doesn't inspire empathy. I guess this is part of the reason why I expect a bleak ending: no matter who survives, pretty much no one seems capable of forming new, truly meaningful and positive emotional connections. It's all about trauma and either mourning the past or shutting yourself away from others.

[Constantinople]

Tyrion never directly said he was a scholar but I think he's genuinely scholarly:

 

To Jon Snow:  “My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer and I have my mind...and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone if it is to keep its edge. That's why I read so much..."

 

His mind is his only weapon, aside from family connections (which he no longer has).

Which suggests to me that Tyrion reads to be a good consigliere, and not for any scholarly purpose.

[Avaleigh]

People liking and yearning and being passionate about each other seems like it's mostly ignored: if it makes any sense, I feel that there's something so sexless about the characters in general and the sex scenes even when they're meant to be about desire.

I'd never really thought about it before but I think this is completely true. I was sure I was going to be able to come up with one couple that might satisfy the requirements but I can't think of a single option where both characters are in sync about their passion for each other and it doesn't have anything to do with manipulation or isn't about emotionless pleasure. It's kind of sad that Ned and Cat arguably win this race because I thought they had some fairly significant problems in their marriage in the form of Jon Snow. (One of them should have been able to bend on the issue IMO. I feel like she should have either fully accepted him or Ned should have told her the truth eventually once he realized that she'd always be cold to Jon to the point where it had an impact on his relationships with his siblings.)

 

Jon and Ygritte didn't come across to me as romantic at the time although I suppose I can see how it would be to some. To me Ygritte has such a large place in Jon's life because she's the only woman he's ever had sex with. He doesn't have anyone else to compare her with so that coupled with her death in front of him, I think it all made their romance seems like a bigger deal than it might otherwise have been. Jaime seemed like he truly did love Cersei at one point but it was a pretty one-sided love affair on top of being incredibly twisted and destructive. With Dany and Daario I think for me it's her thoughts about their relationship that had me frustrated at points. Like she thinks to herself that she'd give up her crown for him if he asked (but acknowledges that he'd never ask because he likes fucking a queen) and thinks something along the lines of Daario wouldn't stop during sex even if she wanted him to. She has these thoughts about this guy and still thinks he's god's gift and it's just like why? Some part of life with Drogo screwed her up psychologically and I feel like her attraction to Daario is part of that. Asha for her part doesn't seem to have any deep feelings for the men she has sex with. Same with Arianne although Arianne at least felt some guilt over what happened with Arys Oakheart. 

 

Then there are characters who think they're in love or maybe they were in love at one point and now this love is actually an unattractive obsession. Lysa, Littlefinger, Tyrion, and Lady Dustin all fall into this category, I think.

 

Renly and Loras seemed to genuinely love each other in the book if we can assume that Renly's feelings were are strong as Loras's still seem to be months after Renly's death. Trystane and Myrcella seem to genuinely like each other and want to spend time with one another and the show is going to blow that up and run with it. Garlan Tyrell and his wife seem to be happily married but they're such minor characters it barely counts. Grey Worm and Missandei on the show seem like they're going in the direction of a romance but even that one is automatically doomed for obvious reasons. Jaime and Brienne have a chance, I suppose, even more of one on the show, but since it hasn't happened yet I guess it doesn't count.

 

Yeah, there's plenty of sex but romance isn't terribly prominent in this series. It's odd because R+L=J is such a huge part of the overall scope of the books but when I consider the points in ElizaD's post and think about the romantic/sexual relationships of the more prominent characters, I have to agree about the overall lack of mutual romantic love.

[Hecate7]

It's not so much that it's a a huge sin or that it isn't partially understandable. The thing that gets me with Tyrion is that he wants beautiful women to see past his appearance and acknowledge the qualities he has in his favor like his intelligence, but at the same time he doesn't seem like he's willing to look past the appearance of a person like Penny. What Tyrion wants people to do for him, I'm not especially convinced that he's capable of doing that himself.

Neither am I, but I don't ascribe a moral quality to it.

 

It's impossible not to want certain things, whether we deserve them or not. Tyrion never judges anyone for being shallow or unable to "see past" his physical unattractiveness. He never calls them names in his mind or wishes them ill. He does feel envy. Well, of course he does! So would I! So would you. So would they, in his shoes.

 

I missed the part where Tyrion "whined about how shallow women are" for not being drawn to him for his intelligence. Noticing that they aren't, and feeling pain over it, isn't the same thing as blaming them or judging them about it. Not being able to keep the painful thoughts out of his head, isn't the same thing as whining, either. 

 

Tyrion actually thinks it's reasonable to prefer Joffrey to himself. He's not framing it with epithets or judgements. He's just allowing for the possibility that his own unattractive body might be every bit as offensive to someone, as Joffrey's cruel behavior. This makes him a realist, not a hypocrite.

[Lady S.]

With Dany and Daario I think for me it's her thoughts about their relationship that had me frustrated at points. Like she thinks to herself that she'd give up her crown for him if he asked (but acknowledges that he'd never ask because he likes fucking a queen) and thinks something along the lines of Daario wouldn't stop during sex even if she wanted him to. She has these thoughts about this guy and still thinks he's god's gift and it's just like why? Some part of life with Drogo screwed her up psychologically and I feel like her attraction to Daario is part of that. Asha for her part doesn't seem to have any deep feelings for the men she has sex with. Same with Arianne although Arianne at least felt some guilt over what happened with Arys Oakheart.

That's part of why I think any Jon/Dany pairing would be short-lived, Dany has terrible taste in men and I can't really see her in a functional relationship with a non-douchebag her own age. Disagree about Asha, though. There's only one man she has sex with on-page, whom she's been with for years, and she does think more than once in terms of spending her life with Qarl, but knows he's not highborn enough to be husband to a Queen. I'd go so far as to say that Asha/Qarl with their rape role-play might be the closest thing to a happy and unproblembatic relationship in the series, that I can think of.

 

Tyrion probably has never met Genna, except very briefly. I'm not sure what qualified her to have an opinion on Jaime or Tyrion, really, since she was married off to Emmon Frey before either of them were born.

 

 There are only two women in all the world who have ever been interested in Tyrion: Lollys Stokeworth, and Penny.

 

Lollys is plump, most likely suffers from Down's syndrome, and in all likelihood likes Tyrion because of something nice he did when they were kids that neither one of them remembers anymore. Penny is a dwarf, like Tyrion. She is of normal intelligence, or perhaps she is above normal and her station in life precluded her developing her intelligence the way Tyrion did his. Either way, Tyrion can't seem to see her as an equal because she's a slave and because she's not a beautiful woman. She probably likes Tyrion mainly because he is a dwarf like her, and she imagines they would be compatible. While I sympathize with both, and probably resemble both more than the women Tyrion looks at, I cannot fault Tyrion for not falling in love with either one of these girls. Nobody else in the books is falling in love with them, either.

Jaime and Cersei saw Genna at the Rock after Tyrion was born, so why wouldn't Tyrion? She was married to a Frey but there's no sign she ever moved to the Riverlands, since Emmon held no lands there prior to the Red Wedding, and during siege she talks to Jaime as if she and Emm have just come from the West, and with Cleos and her younger sons fighting for House Lannister from the start of the war while the youngest served as a page at Casterly Rock, everything feels more like a Frey married into House Lannister than the other way around.

 

OTOH, Lollys has never had any real interaction with Tyrion or herself expressed any fondness for him. Her mother Tanda is the one who kept trying to arrange a match with Tyrion. Tanda also did the same with Littlefinger and eventually settled on Bronn (probably with Cersei sweetening the dowry), so I think Lollys/Tyrion was just part of Tanda's desperate and rather indiscriminate search for someone to settle Lollys with, and Tyrion's Lannister name was probably the only good quality she was looking for. 

 

I don't blame Tyrion for not wanting Lollys or Penny either, but I would count his worst behavior with women in Dance as judging them for not wanting him since he links their revulsion with his desire to scare them. Before his downward spiral, though? No, I wouldn't say Tyrion judged beautiful women harshly for their lack of attraction to him. I think the Tysha experience left him with a phobia that any woman that did want to be with him must be secretly in it for his gold, because the lesson of Tywin's lie-through-Jaime there was that no woman would want Tyrion unless she was a lying gold digger, that there was nothing lovable about Tyrion himself but his Lannister name made "worth more". This is what I really miss from the show, even more from the reveal of Jaime's lie. The show always portrayed Tyrion's whoring as cool and tons of fun, as if paying women to be with him really made a ladies' man and not a pathetic and stunted guy who never moved beyond the 13yo with no idea how to be a real ladies' man. I think Tyrion viewed his use of working women as a matter of necessity, I'm sure he could have found a suitable wife on his own if he really tried, but there was probably another unspoken understanding after Tysha that marriages should be Daddy's decision as they were for every other Lannister. Throughout his marriage to Sansa he seemed realize that his family was an even greater obstacle than his looks, but the point where his self-pity gets to be a bit much for me is when he hears of Sansa's escape and thinks only of his dwarfism.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Lady S.

[benteen]

Tyrion and Jaime both also knew Cleos well so they definitely spent time with Genna.

[Hecate7]

What is he supposed to be thinking about, when Sansa escapes? As far as he knows, she left him holding the bag for a murder she committed.

 

with women in Dance as judging them for not wanting him since he links their revulsion with his desire to scare them

 

I am not so sure that's about judging them, at all. It seemed to me to be more about believing that they are scared and revolted, and so they should not try to hide their revulsion or pretend not to be scared of him. He doesn't want fake approval, fake love, or fake kindness. He doesn't want REAL approval, love, or kindness at the moment, for that matter, because he does not deserve them.

 

I don't think any of it is about thinking that these women SHOULD want him, so much as he thinks they shouldn't pretend to. He doesn't want to fall in love with another Shae again, which he probably will if they smile at him and act like they want him or love him. So he'd prefer they just act the way they really feel in the first place. Unfortunately that makes his encounters really rapey. He doesn't think of it quite that way, because it is their job and he is paying them, but the fact that the last one was a slave did give him pause.

 

I think I assumed Lollys liked Tyrion because she and Bronn named her son after him. Then again, that could just be Bronn's choice. Or it could be his sick sense of humor, naming Lollys' bastard after Tyrion, who was also considered a bastard by his father.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

Points taken about Asha and Qarl. To me though the relationship doesn't feel like one of equals and it seemed like it was more about Qarl playing Asha's game and doing what she wanted without any significant input of his own. I guess they strike me as long term fuck buddies with Asha calling the shots. Still when it comes to what little we've seen of relationships on the Iron Islands, I'd say Asha has a pretty healthy sex life. It just doesn't strike me as romantic or as a relationship of equal partners.

Re the compatibility of Jon and Dany--

I see what you mean about Dany not exactly having the best taste in men, but I'm inclined to think that Jon would just about blow Dany's mind sexually since she's never really been with a considerate lover before. If Ygritte's experience is anything to go by then it's clear that Jon doesn't only think about his own pleasure and that would be something new and unexpected for Dany. Plus Jon is a full on warrior at this point and we know she likes that. Add in the Targaryen blood (I don't expect her to get squicked out over this) and I think it has a good chance of happening.

[Hecate7]

I would say that Catelyn was an intelligent woman with whom Tyrion interacted. Yes, she did some things that were stupid and reckless IMO but I've never personally questioned her level of intelligence. 

But lusting after Ned Stark's wife for her brains, WHILE she's trying to kill him, has so many things wrong with it that I can't even list them all.

[benteen]

But lusting after Ned Stark's wife for her brains, WHILE she's trying to kill him, has so many things wrong with it that I can't even list them all.

 

Nobody ever accused Tyrion's sexual appetites of being healthy.

Edited September 27, 2014 by benteen

[Hecate7]

Nobody ever excused Tyrion's sexual appetites of being healthy.

No, but he does prefer to live, and so I think by virtue of being Ned's wife, Catelyn Stark was literally invisible to him sexually. I mean, he knew she was attractive, but it was moot and he didn't think about it. Her brains only infuriated him because she was using them to try to have him put to death. I think if she'd been going after, say, Joffrey, he'd have sat back in astonished admiration.

[Holmbo]

I can't really ser dany being into jon in the books because i understand him to be quiet homely. That combined with an introvert personality would probably leave dany with litle interest. Though she night marry him for political reasons and warm to him after awhile.

[Avaleigh]

But lusting after Ned Stark's wife for her brains, WHILE she's trying to kill him, has so many things wrong with it that I can't even list them all.

Just to be clear I was responding to the assertion that Tyrion hasn't really had any interactions with intelligent women save Septa Lemore and the one or two others you mentioned.

As far as the healthiness of Tyrion's sexual appetite...I don't know, he's given me bad vibes on more than one occasion and between Tyrion and Jaime I actually think that Jaime might be the least screwed up sexually and that's saying something considering that the only woman Jaime has ever had sex with is his own twin sister. Tyrion's attitude towards Cersei has definitely made me give him the side eye and ditto for his thoughts about Septa Lemore.

I certainly can't imagine Jaime having sex with a slave (or a prostitute tbt) and I can't imagine that Tyrion would for a second have turned away Pia as Jaime did. I'm not suggesting that Tyrion is incapable of sexual loyalty I'm just not convinced that in a situation like that that Tyrion wouldn't think of his own needs first especially if he saw Pia as "willing". (Sansa was a different thing entirely and I think how she'd been treated by Joffrey played a role in terms of Tyrion wanting to treat her better. I also think not wanting to do as his father wanted was tempting in and of itself. That being said, I don't think that Tyrion is a cruel character and believe that he also felt genuine sympathy for what she'd been through up to that point. However, was I annoyed with him when he forced her to do the strip act while he leered at her ? Hell yeah, it was like dude just stop, you know this shit is so wrong right now.)

[Hecate7]

While Catelyn Stark could be considered intelligent, she is hardly an intellectual. I was responding to the notion that Tyrion would not be attracted to an intellectual woman, or appreciate her. IMO he would, but he has not met one that is marriageable for him. She simply doesn't count, because at the time he met her, Ned was alive and had 4 sons--Tyrion's not the type to lust against those odds.

 

I don't think we can compare Jaime and Tyrion in terms of sexuality. Jaime has had his pick of the girls since he was old enough to know what girls were. He is widely considered the best-looking man in Westeros. He has been in love with his twin all his life, and it's not that hard to be faithful to someone who is both considered the most beautiful woman in the world, and also your "soulmate." What Jaime would have been like had he been devoid of good looks or traditionally admirable talents such as swordsmanship, we will never know. What his sexuality would have been, were he not devoted heart and soul to his twin sister, we likewise cannot guess.

 

Yes, I know he was off Cersei when he refused Pia, but he'd had a lifetime of nothing but desire and acceptance from women.

 

Tyrion did not force Sansa to strip. Joffrey did. Tyrion did tell her to strip, and she did. He said get in the bed, and she did. He stripped. That must all have been very unpleasant and we did see it from her pov. Any thoughts she had about it, we read. She was unhappy about it, but not "scarred for life." She's not wandering in a trance through the rest of the series, unable to get the horrible image of the naked dwarf out of her mind. When it turned out he wasn't going to make her consummate, she quit thinking about it, except to basically be relieved and happy about that at least.

 

Tyrion's knowledge that it was wrong is still something I think he deserves some credit for, since it came wholly from his own intuition and empathy, and not one bit from his upbringing, his culture, or anything he'd ever read, listened to, or witnessed.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Hecate7