Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[benteen]

I don't think its ever come up-but they might very well mention it on the show at some point next season ....or they could just change it to 'brother.'

 

I'm sure Jaime will be older.  The producers seem to favor the non-Dorne way of rulership in Westeros.

[Hecate7]

I meant bring Baelish down within about three episodes and move the fuck on, instead of endless scenes of him creeping on her and her dealing with Sweetrobin's tantrums while nothing happens. The one thing this show usually does is get plots moving. Sometimes too fast, but on this occasion, it wouldn't be fast enough for me.

 

I wouldn't expect Baelish to be brought down until much closer to the end. He's the winner of the game so far, and I think he will get at least one more, maybe two more castles under his belt before the end.

 

I know we all want to think that he's the giant Sansa slays in Winterfell. But there are plenty of other giants in the story, and it is not in character at all for GRRM to have something work out that satisfactorily. Sansa's much more likely to kill Hodor, Brienne, or Sandor Clegane, mainly because they are likely to let her. Littlefinger will be expecting it. If he ever thinks she has begun to piece together his role in her family's downfall, it will be too late for her. Arya is bound to live til the end, but Sansa isn't, necessarily. She may get to make some kind of gigantic mess of things first. GRRM may be kind to her, and us, and let her slay a giant we'd like to see slain, in which case I hope it's Littlefinger.

 

 

. Oh, and they need to figure out what the point of Arya in Braavos is supposed to be. So moving Sansa along to actually doing something consequential would be rather advantageous too.

.

I'm not sure there is a point, ultimately. Probably she's being moved into position to kill whoever ends up in Braavos, or to migrate to Essos and take out all of our favorite characters who've ended up there.

I don't think its ever come up-but they might very well mention it on the show at some point next season ....or they could just change it to 'brother.'

 

In season One, Cersei told Ned Jaime came out holding onto her heel. So yes, the unsullied know he's younger.

[Avaleigh]

In season One, Cersei told Ned Jaime came out holding onto her heel. So yes, the unsullied know he's younger.

Really? I haven't seen the first season in a couple of years so my memory could be faulty but this is the only show quote I remember: "Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We shared a womb. We came into this world together. We belong together."

 

I don't even think Cersei mentions the Jaime holding onto her foot thing to Ned in the books. Isn't it something she thinks about in one of her POV chapters? Or maybe Jaime thinks about it in one of his?

Edited February 23, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Hecate7]

Well, if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time I remembered a scene, full of the actor's vocal nuances and the other's reactions, and had it turn out not to have happened onscreen. I could have sworn I heard her say it.

[Avaleigh]

I don't know if it comes up in either of their POVs as well but I was able to dig this up and it seems that Cersei did mention it to Ned in the books: "And Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said. When he is in me, I feel … whole."

 

One of these days I need to reread the series. 

[Winnief]

In the scene in the books they specifically mentioned that Jaime came out holding Cersei's heel, but they haven't said that on the show-Yet.  If however, they *do* stick to the original translation of 'little brother," I imagine they'll make sure that comes up.

 

I think the ultimate point of Arya in Braavos was to turn her into a truly unstoppable assassin before sending her back to Westeros.  Though, I imagine the show might do more with it and will almost certainly have her story collide with other important plotlines.

[Hecate7]

In the scene in the books they specifically mentioned that Jaime came out holding Cersei's heel, but they haven't said that on the show-Yet.  If however, they *do* stick to the original translation of 'little brother," I imagine they'll make sure that comes up.

 

I think the ultimate point of Arya in Braavos was to turn her into a truly unstoppable assassin before sending her back to Westeros.  Though, I imagine the show might do more with it and will almost certainly have her story collide with other important plotlines.

 

If she goes back to Westeros, the first person she kills is gonna be someone she's related to. GRRM does not write stories in which little miss badass saves the day.

[charis]

If it hasn't come up yet, I wouldn't put it past the producers to use "little brother", let the implication of Tyrion build up, and then drop the information that Jaime is younger than Cersei ... Cue dramatic chords.

[SeanC]

If she goes back to Westeros, the first person she kills is gonna be someone she's related to. GRRM does not write stories in which little miss badass saves the day.

People seriously overstate the degree to which GRRM goes against convention.  Arya is one of the protagonists, the people set up to play a key role in the Battle for the Dawn.  She'll return to Westeros to, among other things, recover her missing wolf.

 

Littlefinger will be expecting it. If he ever thinks she has begun to piece together his role in her family's downfall, it will be too late for her.

 

Sansa is Littlefinger's blind spot.  That's been quite well established at this point.

Edited February 23, 2015 by SeanC

[Hecate7]

People seriously overstate the degree to which GRRM goes against convention.  Arya is one of the protagonists, the people set up to play a key role in the Battle for the Dawn.  She'll return to Westeros to, among other things, recover her missing wolf.

 

Sansa is Littlefinger's blind spot.  That's been quite well established at this point.

 

If you think this has a happy ending.....Arya saves everybody and gets Nymeria back, Sansa kills Littlefinger, Rickon returns to reclaim Winterfell for his family, Bran rides a dragon to victory, Jon Snow sits on the Iron Throne, and is advised by someone wise and good....you haven't been paying attention.

 

More likely, Arya, who remembers Sansa as a red-headed 12 year old, will kill an annoying black-haired 25 year old called Alayne, and only wonder a day later about the lemon cakes. More likely Nymeria is still in the books as a mirror of what Arya is, as opposed to reconciling with her. Arya might kill a barbarian sleeping in a tavern one day, not knowing that the massive bearded redhead she just dispatched was Rickon. And then she'll get sent on an errand to harvest some weirwood to replace a window shutter at the hall of the Faceless Men. Nymeria's out there wiping out villages. She's an unstoppable force with a giant pack--that giant pack probably represents the assasins. Then again, Nymeria was tender with Catelyn's body, so Arya may still have pockets of humanity left in her, and perhaps a reconciliation with Nymeria is possible, even though, really, it is extremely unlikely.

 

Arya might lead an army in the Battle for the Dawn, but she's a lot more likely to be sent to skulk about in the shadows killing off important people, and perhaps in the end impersonating one of the bad guys in order to get close to another one of the bad guys. She might be forced, while disguised as Tyrion, for instance, to kill a good guy in self defense, so that she can kill Danaerys. (Or vice versa). By that time both Danaerys and Tyrion will be so evil, we'll be relieved when Arya or a dragon belch destroys them.

 

Arya is being set up to kill at least one fan favorite (please not Snow) and at least one family member (please not Snow). She might also turn out to be useful, but more likely she's just going to go through everyone's pockets after they're dead, and go back to the Faceless Men.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Hecate7

[Holmbo]

I'd like if the valonqar was a double bluff. They introduce the prophecy then later they introduce the twist that Jaime is younger and everyone thinks they know what's coming. Then tommen kills her coming back as a white walker.

[SeanC]

More likely, Arya, who remembers Sansa as a red-headed 12 year old, will kill an annoying black-haired 25 year old called Alayne, and only wonder a day later about the lemon cakes. More likely Nymeria is still in the books as a mirror of what Arya is, as opposed to reconciling with her. 

Arya doesn't just randomly kill people, and she would know what Sansa looks like -- the idea that Arya is somehow going to kill Sansa is one of the fan theories that requires overlooking huge amounts of the text regarding the setup (as well as rendering Sansa's character nothing more than a speedbump in Arya's story).

 

GRRM has said that Arya will meet Nymeria again, and Arya's connection to Nymeria continuing is a regular theme in the novels, even though Arya doesn't realize what's happening.

 

GRRM has already said it will be a "bittersweet" ending, and has angrily denied that he is nihilistic, which is the sort of ending you seem to think he has in mind.

[benteen]

I expected the ending of Game of Thrones to be bittersweet although I really wish GRRM hadn't said that as it tells you exactly what to expect.

[charis]

So a 63-72% dark ending? (On second thought, maybe I shouldn't say I like my stories like I like my chocolate ... that might end up too dark!)

 

Martin never struck me as nihilistic, either in Game of Thrones or in any of his Wild Cards work. He writes storylines with some pretty severe shit going down and some decidedly dark notes, but if the Wild Cards stuff is any sort of gauge, his endings never seemed to me as crapsack as the buildup. (Of course, a lot of Wild Cards was shared 'verse so make of that what you will, but I think that if he'd wanted Rocks Fall Everyone Dies that could've happened all the same.) Although Rocks Fall Everyone Dies is a lazy ending, so maybe if he gets bored enough and just wants to finish that's what'll end up happening.

 

Right. Happy thoughts. Chocolate!

Edited February 24, 2015 by charis

[Winnief]

 

Arya doesn't just randomly kill people, and she would know what Sansa looks like -- the idea that Arya is somehow going to kill Sansa is one of the fan theories that requires overlooking huge amounts of the text regarding the setup (as well as rendering Sansa's character nothing more than a speedbump in Arya's story).

 

GRRM has said that Arya will meet Nymeria again, and Arya's connection to Nymeria continuing is a regular theme in the novels, even though Arya doesn't realize what's happening.

 

GRRM has already said it will be a "bittersweet" ending, and has angrily denied that he is nihilistic, which is the sort of ending you seem to think he has in mind.

 

WORD.  My interpretation is that while some of the main characters, (though, almost certainly not all) will survive the Long Winter to rebuild Westeros the bitter part will be that it came at the cost of so many they hold dear, and that re-building after all that's happened is going to be a long, hard, job. 

 

And yeah, Sansa's story arc is clearly building up to *something* be it for good or for evil, and having it end by being accidentally killed by Arya would be an utter waste. 

[Hecate7]

WORD.  My interpretation is that while some of the main characters, (though, almost certainly not all) will survive the Long Winter to rebuild Westeros the bitter part will be that it came at the cost of so many they hold dear, and that re-building after all that's happened is going to be a long, hard, job. 

 

And yeah, Sansa's story arc is clearly building up to *something* be it for good or for evil, and having it end by being accidentally killed by Arya would be an utter waste. 

 

I'm probably prejudiced from reading Fever Dreams, which was a study in misery and anticlimax for the most part, and Armageddon Rag, which had a very peculiar and painful storyline for the most part. Also A Song For Lya, beautifully written and very good, but ultimately very dark. It sounds as if he has another side that's a little more straight up adventure?

 

Since Sansa is not in the original I would not be surprised at all for her to be a speed bump in Arya's story.

[Winnief]

Since Sansa is not in the original I would not be surprised at all for her to be a speed bump in Arya's story.

 

 

She wasn't in the Original, but I think the Main Five Martin originally envisioned has now become the Main Six.   And whatever "hints" there were for that in the books, I certainly haven't seen it in on the show.

[BlackberryJam]

Not sure if this is the read thread, but I saw this linked over at the Jaime Brienne Online board.

 

http://w11.zetaboards.com/Jaime_x_Brienne/single/?p=8785496&t=10523808

 

 

I have received some information from an unconfirmed source. It seems to be a summary from the first episode of season 5. I want to share it with you but please don’t look at it as fact, more like a theory, since I can’t confirm if it’s actually true or not. Enjoy.

The episode starts with the Maggy the Frog scene. “Gold shall be their crowns, and gold their shrouds…” A brunette girl is pulling at a young blonde girls arm and urges her to leave. “Cersei, we have to go!” Then there's a cut to a scene between Cersei and Jaime over Tywin's corpse where she asks him if he is the one who freed Tyrion. He denies it but she knows him too well and knows he's lying. She leaves him there alone with Jaime feeling very guilty. Then there's another Cersei scene where she feels like a lion drowning in a pool of golden roses, watching Margaery comfort Tommen while Loras is offering her his condolences. She leaves the place without a look at Loras, walks into Pycelle but just leaves him standing there as well. She just wants to be alone for a moment, but then she walks into Lancel Lannister. She hardly recognizes him. Her uncle Kevan Lannister follows and apologizes for his son's ragged looks and informs her that he's joined the Sparrows. There’s another scene later where Lancel seeks her out and asks for her forgiveness for sleeping with her and tells her that he’s a changed man now.
There's a scene with Tyrion, too, arriving in Pentos in the crate. He drinks 8 cups of wine in that scene then vomits on Illyrios expensive carpet. Varys tells him he and Illyrio have bet on the wrong Targaryen (Viserys) but Tyrion is not interested in the Game of Thrones anymore.
In Meereen there's an Unsullied going to a brothel. But he's not there for sex, he just seeks human contact. The whore sings to him while he rests his head on her breast... then his throat is slit by a man masked with the face of the Harpy. Dany orders the Unsullied to patrol the streets. Daario and Hizdahr zo Loraq return to Meereen. Daario tells Dany the other Slave cities are just waiting for the slightest weakness she shows to attack. She needs to use her dragons, a dragon queen without dragons is no queen at all. Dany is afraid she can't control the dragons and doesn't want another child to die, but she seeks out the dragons in the pit nonetheless. Her babies however are not happy to see her. They've grown huge and angry and they attack Dany. All that keeps them from eating her are the chains. Dany flees the pit, scared, horrified, and realizes she's lost control of them completely.
At the Wall there's a scene between Jon and Stannis walking on top of the Wall with Melisandre and Davos following close behind. Stannis reminds Jon that the man who put a dagger into Robb’s heart is now ruling over Winterfell and asks if Jon doesn’t want to avenge his brother. Jon informs him that he wants a great many things but his loyalty belongs to the Watch. Stannis tells Jon that many love him (Jon), and some don’t, and then goes on that he doesn't want to kill the Wildlings, he needs men to fight Roose Bolton after all. He wants them to kneel to him. He wants their king Mance to kneel to him. He gives Jon till nightfall to convince Mance to kneel. Jon hurries off to Mance and tries to convince him.

 

 

 

https://m2.facebook.com/TheSheWolfOfWinterfell/photos/pb.1434015483507519.-2207520000.1424697623./1479376908971376/?type=1&source=42&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2FTheSheWolfOfWinterfell%2Fphotos%2Fpb.1434015483507519.-2207520000.1424697623.%2F1479376908971376%2F&_rdr

 

This person had some spoilers very similar to the Stannis the Mannis ones which have been shown to be pretty on point. 

https://m2.facebook.com/Stannisswagatheon/posts/814624378577731?refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2FStannisswagatheon%2Fposts%2F814624378577731&_rdr

 

It could be a lot of really good guesses based on what we've seen so far.  But it just sounds...like that's what could happen.

 

 

 

[jjjmoss]

That doesn't sound interesting enough to be a whole episode summary. 

 

And I refuse to accept another Stark-less episode.

[Avaleigh]

We've had Stark-less episodes? I consider Jon to be a Stark, just to be clear.

I actually like the sound of the summary if it's the real deal.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Winnief]

The summary sounds all right to me, I just suspect it might not be a complete run-down of everything that happens in the first episode, since I doubt D&D would keep us in suspense over what's happening with Arya. 

 

This gives me a bad feeling, though, as to Mance's future survival.  We know that characters are set to die this season who were still alive in the books, and Melisandre is always on the lookout for "Kings Blood." 

 

Though, I do like the idea that they're getting Stannis set up to go to battle against the Boltons early on.  Battle of Winterfell yeah baby!!!  Also, it definitely seems like it would be in character for Cersei to use Jaime's guilt over releasing Tyrion to get him to go to Dorne-though they're clearly going to have to break out the old Teleporter this season.  Also like that they may have decided to include Lancel's conversion to the Sparrows since that could prove very VERY important down the line.

[Advance35]

She wasn't in the Original, but I think the Main Five Martin originally envisioned has now become the Main Six.   And whatever "hints" there were for that in the books, I certainly haven't seen it in on the show.

 

I sometimes wonder if GRRM has gotten carried away with Sansa.  In that abysmal sounding storyline that was released not to long ago it really did sound like Sansa wasn't going to be of much consequence to the overall story after she chose Joffrey.  

 

In what was published she's been linked/formed a relationship and been involved with Cersei, Joffrey, Tyrion, Olenna, Margaery, Littlefinger, Lysa Arryn, Robin Arryn and that's just the high ranking nobility.

 

She's been involved with schemes, consequences and comeuppance for a lot of the more prominent characters and in the draft that was released (of his original conception) I didn't get the impression the "Sansa Character" was pivotal.

[Winnief]

I sometimes wonder if GRRM has gotten carried away with Sansa.  In that abysmal sounding storyline that was released not to long ago it really did sound like Sansa wasn't going to be of much consequence to the overall story after she chose Joffrey. 

 

In what was published she's been linked/formed a relationship and been involved with Cersei, Joffrey, Tyrion, Olenna, Margaery, Littlefinger, Lysa Arryn, Robin Arryn and that's just the high ranking nobility.

 

She's been involved with schemes, consequences and comeuppance for a lot of the more prominent characters and in the draft that was released (of his original conception) I didn't get the impression the "Sansa Character" was pivotal.

 

 

I don't know if the right term is 'carried away" so much as the character evolved as he started writing her.  For instance Arya was going to be a romantic heroine in the middle of a love triangle; NOT a master child assassin.  Jaime was a power hungry would be king, Tyrion was never originally conceived as a dwarf, and there was nothing about Cersei.  And now it's kinda impossible to imagine the series without Tyrion as a dwarf or without Cersei.  Or for that matter without Jaime's redemption arc which may not have even been in Martin's plans during the first book. 

 

So it's not terribly surprising that while Original Sansa was just gonna be a girl who chose Joff over her family, lived to regret it and never mattered again, Sansa on the page grew into something more...complicated and much more pivotal to the saga.  At least that's what I *think* happened.

[Holmbo]

I think that as original Jaime seems to have split into Jaime and Cersei so did original Arya become Arya and Sansa. Though it's hard to say for sure of course.

Does anyone know how it went for that crazy reddit group that where trying to decipher the blacked out part of the synopsis?

 

Also I want to add that I think the reason the Sansa in Winterfell theory got so much acceptance is that it's hard to imagine a future story line for her until the very end game. I can see what king of role she might have in the end game as a surviving Stark kid and possible heir to Riverrun or bride to whoever ends up on the Ironthrone. But I don't see how she will get there.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Holmbo

[SeanC]

We've had Stark-less episodes? I consider Jon to be a Stark, just to be clear.

Episode 4.06 was the first (and so far only) episode without any Starks or Jon Snow.

 

The summary above is accurate (it's based on the Facebook post), but it's believed to be incomplete.  Notably, it doesn't mention the Boltons, who are believed to be in episode 5.01, and Arya.

Since Sansa is not in the original I would not be surprised at all for her to be a speed bump in Arya's story.

You don't give 25+ chapters and a large story arc to someone who is just a speed bump.

[Avaleigh]

The summary sounds all right to me, I just suspect it might not be a complete run-down of everything that happens in the first episode, since I doubt D&D would keep us in suspense over what's happening with Arya. 

 

This gives me a bad feeling, though, as to Mance's future survival.  We know that characters are set to die this season who were still alive in the books, and Melisandre is always on the lookout for "Kings Blood." 

 

Though, I do like the idea that they're getting Stannis set up to go to battle against the Boltons early on.  Battle of Winterfell yeah baby!!!  Also, it definitely seems like it would be in character for Cersei to use Jaime's guilt over releasing Tyrion to get him to go to Dorne-though they're clearly going to have to break out the old Teleporter this season.  Also like that they may have decided to include Lancel's conversion to the Sparrows since that could prove very VERY important down the line.

If Jaime and Bronn sail to Dorne would the timeline really be that wonky? 

 

Regarding Mance, Melisandre, and kingsblood--I guess my question is how would Shireen tie into all of that? I feel like there's been more set up for Shireen being the one in danger particularly with the big change in Selyse's character wrt Shireen. I doubt we'll get two burnings and while I have my doubts as to any show having a kid burned alive on TV, I feel like the groundwork has been laid for Shireen being the one at risk of Mel's flames especially when I consider the conversation the two characters have where we see that Shireen doesn't like Melisandre and isn't buying into her reasons for why she thinks it's a good idea to burn people or those ridiculous comparisons to childbirth. 

 

If Shireen were older I'd say she could maybe fill the Alys Karstark function but with her age it doesn't quite work since the actress seems to be playing a bit younger than she actually is and that would make it too squicky. 

 

I think that as original Jaime seems to have split into Jaime and Cersei so did original Arya become Arya and Sansa. Though it's hard to say for sure of course.

 

 

This is also my take. I especially think that the romance elements were transferred over to Sansa.  

 

Also I want to add that I think the reason the Sansa in Winterfell theory got so much acceptance is that it's hard to imagine a future story line for her until the very end game.

 

 

Believe it or not I've never once considered the possibility that Sansa might not survive the end of the series. I feel like it's such a given that she'll be a Queen whether as a consort or in her own right and that she's also more than likely the YMBQ. Ever since I read notes from that original plan though I feel like her death is possible in a way that I hadn't considered. I always assumed that Lady's death was about Sansa being spiritually severed from her family and the North on some level and while I still think that's part of it, I wonder if it isn't also a darker kind of foreshadowing? I know Arya is brought up as a danger from time to time and while I don't think the possibility is entirely impossible I'm starting to wonder if it might not be Jon. This guy who greatly resembles Ned--could Sansa actually end up being Jon's NissaNissa? I can't believe it took me so long to really consider this when I have for awhile now felt that Jon/Sansa is a strong possibility. I kept thinking that Jon's Nissa Nissa was going to be Ghost but now I'm not so sure. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if Jon will stab Ghost first (or second after trying water first) only to have that not work the way that he thought it would. Then with the third attempt he knows it has to be a human loved one. I'm torn, I can see it being Sansa or Dany. I don't feel like Arya fits as well but still acknowledge that she is a possibility. I can't see it being Val. I'm starting to think that she won't be all that important especially since she hasn't been incorporated into the show yet. 

[Maximum Taco]

She wasn't in the Original, but I think the Main Five Martin originally envisioned has now become the Main Six.   And whatever "hints" there were for that in the books, I certainly haven't seen it in on the show.

 

There was supposed to be a time skip in the original story too. Where all the young kids aged up.

 

If Arya was supposed to have storylines that were more suited to an "aged up" Arya, GRRM may have transferred that part of Arya's story to Sansa.

[Winnief]

This is also my take. I especially think that the romance elements were transferred over to Sansa.

 

 

That's what I suspect too.  Especially since Sansa is now a lot more age appropriate for that than Arya. 

 

Of course it's always possible Martin's just decided to jettison the whole romance concept altogether and just let Jon/Dany form the ultimate Targaryen Power Match. 

 

On the question of Nissa-Nissa anything's possible...though a case could be made that's already happened with Jon/Ygritte.

[SeanC]

I think the romantic elements are more likely gone than anything else, given the extent of the changes.  The romantic aspects in Sansa's story have seemingly, thus far, focused on the Hound.

[Winnief]

 

I think the romantic elements are more likely gone than anything else, given the extent of the changes.  The romantic aspects in Sansa's story have seemingly, thus far, focused on the Hound.

 

Which notably aren't present on the show-though they have made more than a few hints for Sansa/Tyrion.  Not sure what significance (if any) there is in that.

 

Of course, for both the books and the show whether or not they include romance or not, marriage is always a HUGE deal in driving the plot along, and we know for a fact more will be coming up.  I find myself wondering though, since the show has (wisely IMO) cut fAegon and Arianne, and appears to be setting the stage for Dany to reach Westeros in Season 6, (partly instigated by Tyrion who will no doubt give her a similar run-down to what he gave Young Griff about how the Seven Kingdoms are ripe for invasion,) if the show might at least have a Dany/Trystane marriage proposed?!?  Hell, for all we know that might even happen in the books too eventually.

 

It's also possible that Myrcella really will wed her prince-OR if/when Tommen dies be offered as a bride to Willas in books Loras/show to help save the Tyrell alliance.

 

My personal theory is that Cersei is going to try to marry Euron in a mad attempt to stay in power.

[Danny Franks]

This gives me a bad feeling, though, as to Mance's future survival.  We know that characters are set to die this season who were still alive in the books, and Melisandre is always on the lookout for "Kings Blood." 

 

They've already made mistakes in killing secondary characters that the books didn't, to give emotional resonance to main characters. Rakharo and Irri* in Dany's storyline (wouldn't be surprised if they killed Missandei as well, this season. Just to hammer home that Meereen is dangerous), Grenn and Pyp in Jon's. But with the lack of depth in secondary characters, it leaves storylines rather bare of sympathetic presences. If, for example, they had taken the time to put Donal Noye in a couple of scenes, they could have kept Grenn as an ally for Jon, and a friendly face on The Wall.

 

* I know the actors had some issues with other gigs and visa, respectively, but neither were insurmountable.

 

My personal theory is that Cersei is going to try to marry Euron in a mad attempt to stay in power.

 

 

Ugh, Euron's not in the show, is he? Can't stand him or his ridiculously vile viking pirate brother ('I killed my wife because I'm so badass I couldn't abide by her being raped by my brother. I cut the tongue out of this woman's mouth so I can keep her around to fuck but not have to listen to her' More of GRRM's comedic savagery, there). They need to be excised from the plot for good.

[Winnief]

Not clear yet, if Euron's on the show or not.  I'm sure Balon's death will be mentioned, (if only to help prop up how Melisandre's blood magic works,) but it doesn't look like they cast Euron or Vic for Season Five.

 

Which does not mean they won't appear.  Well Vic won't since his only purpose in the books is to bring the Fleet to Dany and on the show she already has the ships, and I doubt they'd bother with Aeron either but it could be they're saving Euron for Season 6 just like the Reed siblings didn't appear until Season 3, even though they were introduced in ACOK.  This *could* be the same thing depending on what larger importance if any Euron, and the Iron Born invasion of the Reach has to the plot.  If it's something that fizzles out quickly without lasting repercussions to the political landscape beyond the suffering of the Shield Islands, and only further provoking tensions between House Tyrell and House Lannister then they'll probably skip it.  After all tensions between those two Houses are already pretty damn ugly and it's not like they're gonna send Sam off to Oldtown.

 

If however, Euron *is* more important, (especially if my theory about the marriage is correct,) then he might come on to the scene in Season 6-perhaps after being briefly mentioned in Season Five, in ominous foreshadowing.

 

  One thing that may support that theory, is when Tywin was talking to Tommen in the Sept, (in the truly great scene before the Scene I Will Not Name) he proposed an interesting hypothetical, "Let's say a wealthy House with fertile land asks for your protection from another House with a powerful Navy that could one day oppose you...what is the right decision?"  Sound familiar?!? 

[Avaleigh]

One thing that may support that theory, is when Tywin was talking to Tommen in the Sept, (in the truly great scene before the Scene I Will Not Name) he proposed an interesting hypothetical, "Let's say a wealthy House with fertile land asks for your protection from another House with a powerful Navy that could one day oppose you...what is the right decision?"  Sound familiar?!?

Oooh, yes!

 

I will be most disappointed if Euron doesn't pop up at some point. Too many opportunities and he's one of the only really bad non-Other guys left at this point apart from LF and Ramsay.  

[Winnief]

 

Oooh, yes!

 

I will be most disappointed if Euron doesn't pop up at some point. Too many opportunities and he's one of the only really bad non-Other guys left at this point apart from LF and Ramsay.

 

Exactly and at least one, (if not both of them) is likely to die in Season 5.  I'd be surprised if either was still standing into the middle of Season Six.  And that goes for Roose as well, (Sniff I'll miss him-what a magnificent bastard!)   Plus lots and LOTS of dead Freys as well.

 

But that means they're gonna need another non-White Walker Big Bad to take on the role of being the Guy we Love to Hate and all the groundwork with House Greyjoy with "We Do Not Sow," the Iron Born and "Iron Price" and that whole toxic culture has been laid out already for viewers. 

Edited February 25, 2015 by Winnief

[SeanC]

They've already made mistakes in killing secondary characters that the books didn't, to give emotional resonance to main characters. Rakharo and Irri* in Dany's storyline (wouldn't be surprised if they killed Missandei as well, this season. Just to hammer home that Meereen is dangerous), Grenn and Pyp in Jon's. But with the lack of depth in secondary characters, it leaves storylines rather bare of sympathetic presences. If, for example, they had taken the time to put Donal Noye in a couple of scenes, they could have kept Grenn as an ally for Jon, and a friendly face on The Wall.

 

* I know the actors had some issues with other gigs and visa, respectively, but neither were insurmountable.

I'm pretty sure that killing Rakharo and Irri also had a big element of the show needing to keep Dany's supporting cast a reasonable size.  Through seasons 3-4 she has Jorah, Barristan, Grey Worm, Missandei, and Daario.  If you look at any given "council" scene, generally maybe three of them get to speak at a given time.  Neither Rakharo or Irri have really done anything since.  In a book, you can have really large retinues of people who don't have essential plot functions.

 

I think Missandei is quite safe, for the simple reason that she's the only woman in Dany's supporting cast.  That immediately sets her apart from everybody else.

Edited February 25, 2015 by SeanC

[Winnief]

I'm pretty sure that killing Rakharo and Irri also had a big element of the show needing to keep Dany's supporting cast a reasonable size.  Through seasons 3-4 she has Jorah, Barristan, Grey Worm, Missandei, and Daario.  If you look at any given "council" scene, generally maybe three of them get to speak at a given time.  Neither Rakharo or Irri have really done anything since.  In a book, you can have really large retinues of people who don't have essential plot functions.

 

I think Missandei is quite safe, for the simple reason that she's the only woman in Dany's supporting cast.  That immediately sets her apart from everybody else.

 

 

Agreed.  It's also yet another reason, I expect a LOT of deaths this coming season among the supporting cast, and why they'd be planning kills that haven't even happened in the books; D&D at this point, have to be trying to downscale the cast a bit with negative population growth.  The fact that new characters will be popping in from Dorne only amps the pressure.

 

I think Sean may have a point though, about them wanting to keep at least one female confidante for Dany, which would seem to help Missandei...but it's also possible they may be counting on her meeting other female characters in Season 6.

[Hecate7]

Episode 4.06 was the first (and so far only) episode without any Starks or Jon Snow.

 

The summary above is accurate (it's based on the Facebook post), but it's believed to be incomplete.  Notably, it doesn't mention the Boltons, who are believed to be in episode 5.01, and Arya.

You don't give 25+ chapters and a large story arc to someone who is just a speed bump.

 

You don't, and I don't, but GRRM might. Jon Snow got at least that much, AND his own personal mystery, and he was apparently a speed bump, as far as we know. Jaime had even more, and as far as we know his story is over.

[Winnief]

You don't, and I don't, but GRRM might. Jon Snow got at least that much, AND his own personal mystery, and he was apparently a speed bump, as far as we know. Jaime had even more, and as far as we know his story is over.

 

 

I'm 110% confident that Jon will be resurrected, and that Jaime's going to re-appear in TWOW.  Or at least if we ever *get* TWOW.  The point is neither of their story arcs is finished.

[SeanC]

You don't, and I don't, but GRRM might. Jon Snow got at least that much, AND his own personal mystery, and he was apparently a speed bump, as far as we know. Jaime had even more, and as far as we know his story is over.

Oh, c'mon, Jon is clearly still alive (one way or another); absolutely nobody buys that he's dead.  And Jaime has to choke the life out of Cersei, so he's not going anywhere quickly (also Jaime has markedly fewer chapters than Sansa or, especially, Jon, who is #2 in the overall chapter count).

[Holmbo]

Believe it or not I've never once considered the possibility that Sansa might not survive the end of the series. I feel like it's such a given that she'll be a Queen whether as a consort or in her own right and that she's also more than likely the YMBQ. Ever since I read notes from that original plan though I feel like her death is possible in a way that I hadn't considered. I always assumed that Lady's death was about Sansa being spiritually severed from her family and the North on some level and while I still think that's part of it, I wonder if it isn't also a darker kind of foreshadowing? I know Arya is brought up as a danger from time to time and while I don't think the possibility is entirely impossible I'm starting to wonder if it might not be Jon. This guy who greatly resembles Ned--could Sansa actually end up being Jon's NissaNissa? I can't believe it took me so long to really consider this when I have for awhile now felt that Jon/Sansa is a strong possibility. I kept thinking that Jon's Nissa Nissa was going to be Ghost but now I'm not so sure. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if Jon will stab Ghost first (or second after trying water first) only to have that not work the way that he thought it would. Then with the third attempt he knows it has to be a human loved one. I'm torn, I can see it being Sansa or Dany. I don't feel like Arya fits as well but still acknowledge that she is a possibility. I can't see it being Val. I'm starting to think that she won't be all that important especially since she hasn't been incorporated into the show yet. 

I see Sansa as one of the safest character in the books. Both because her story is sort of a slow burner so it feels like she will be around for a while longer and because her character development is one of the few that seems to be going in a positive direction so she seems like someone people could trust to be in a position of power in the end.

About NissaNissa I have to confess my first thought reading it was "well that's clearly not making it into the show so not important". It's pretty strange that I thought so because the show could probably have Melisandre tell that story. I just have a hard time picturing Jon trying to fill some prophecy. It'd have to happen accidentally in that case and maybe not literal. Like just as he wont literally kill a lion he's weapon wont actually be a sword on fire.... I don't know I'm bad at speculating about prophecies and dreams and such. I just don't think that the story will go totally high fantasy with the "chosen one", specially not the show. It will be more symbolic I think.

[WearyTraveler]

I think the story of NissaNissa will not be repeated in the book.  My take was that the sword was forged then, and the sword has been around since it was forged, the right guy has to discover it, that's all.  The way I understood it, we don't need to forge a new sword because the sword already exists.

[Winnief]

Today. 4:03 pm

 

I think the story of NissaNissa will not be repeated in the book.  My take was that the sword was forged then, and the sword has been around since it was forged, the right guy has to discover it, that's all.  The way I understood it, we don't need to forge a new sword because the sword already exists.

 

 

I agree its probable the story of NissaNissa will not be repeated, but I don't think it's a question of rediscovering the sword...I really think Oathkeeper is going to be Lightbringer.  Brienne comes up North, with Sansa and the sword, and Sansa gives it to the newly discovered Jon Targaryen.

[Hecate7]

I assume that the direwolves prefigure the Starks' fates, and so I knew that neither one of the parents was getting out alive, and that a Baratheon or Baratheons would kill them, because of the antler in the mother direwolf.

 

As soon as Robb allowed Greywind to be chained, I knew both of their days were numbered. It was horrible to read, and even more painful to see.

 

Sansa's wolf died in place of Arya's. So the girls will eventually be put in a situation where one must die so the other can live. Sansa's death will mirror Lady's, and be caught up in Arya's arc in some way.

 

Nymeria runs wild, just as Arya does. She accumulates an immense pack. Arya is part of what appears to be an enormous organization. Actually she's got several packs potentially at her disposal. I don't see the makings of a general or a strategist in her, but then her training isn't over yet, and she is very young. It's possible she might lead armies, or conduct a large-scale black ops mission.  I'm not sure Arya will ever see Nymeria again in person, but she might warg her to do something very useful.

 

Ghost appears to be from another litter--his eyes were already open. Either that or he's the real pick of the litter. So we know Jon Snow is quite different from his siblings in a way that involves being from another litter--one where they have white hair and red or violet eyes.

 

If Summer is harmed I shall be very put out. He is Bran's eyes and ears.

 

Shaggydog has been gored. We see him dealing with it--we're not told how serious it is, but why show us that, and no glimpse or noise of Rickon or Osha? I'm not optimistic about Rickon frankly.

[Danny Franks]

As someone who likes the importance that can be attached to weapons in fantasy stories, I really hate the idea of Jon giving up or losing Longclaw, to be handed some prophesied weapon of destiny. Longclaw is his sword, Oathkeeper is just the bastardised remnant of someone else's sword, ruined by a covetous old man.

 

Prophecies are better when they're figurative and couched in flowery language than when they actually become literal. A flaming sword? It's not necessary. A burning sword? Valyrian steel burns Others, so I'm fine with it being figurative.

 

And yeah, of course Jon isn't dead. This is probably going to be where the 'GRRM never does what's expected. He never resorts to clichés' crowd will be grasping desperately at straws, because the prophesied saviour reluctantly accepting his destiny to rescue mankind is kind of the biggest cliché there is in the genre.

 

But I've always said, if you look at the build of Jon in this series, he is absolutely on a Hero's Journey. It's just that GRRM has spent a thousand pages doing what most other authors would do in a couple of hundred, Guess what stage Jon is at? Revelation and rebirth.

 

I assume that the direwolves prefigure the Starks' fates, and so I knew that neither one of the parents was getting out alive, and that a Baratheon or Baratheons would kill them, because of the antler in the mother direwolf.

As soon as Robb allowed Greywind to be chained, I knew both of their days were numbered. It was horrible to read, and even more painful to see.

Sansa's wolf died in place of Arya's. So the girls will eventually be put in a situation where one must die so the other can live. Sansa's death will mirror Lady's, and be caught up in Arya's arc in some way.

Nymeria runs wild, just as Arya does. She accumulates an immense pack. Arya is part of what appears to be an enormous organization. Actually she's got several packs potentially at her disposal.

 

 

I don't think it can be viewed that strictly. In my view, it's not that the fate of the wolf prefigures the fate of the Stark, but that the circumstances of the wolf reflect the circumstances of the Stark. Robb stopped listening to Grey Wind, in effect, when he chose Jeyne over him. He couldn't have deduced that because Jeyne didn't like Grey Wind, a marriage to her would be the death of him, but that's what the reader was being told, in hindsight. Grey Wind was a warning he ignored.

 

Sansa lost Lady, so in effect Sansa lost her connection to the North. And she did. Ned was killed, Arya disappeared, Jeyne Poole disappeared, and Sansa was left alone with the Lannisters. Lady dying doesn't mean Sansa will, it just reflects the fact that she lost touch with being a Stark, As Arya has as well, also without her wolf.

 

Nymeria ran, like Arya runs, and embraced wildness. She has vengeance on the brain, somehow, through that old connection with Arya. But I don't think her having a pack is any more indicative of Arya joining the Faceless Men than it is that wolves have packs, and she's the biggest, toughest wolf in the Riverlands.

 

I'm not particularly impressed with GRRM's writing, in hindsight, but I'd be more than a little disappointed if he was so on the nose with the wolves that we already know Sansa will die because Lady died. That would be crazily underwhelming.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Danny Franks

[WearyTraveler]

As someone who likes the importance that can be attached to weapons in fantasy stories, I really hate the idea of Jon giving up or losing Longclaw, to be handed some prophesied weapon of destiny. Longclaw is his sword, Oathkeeper is just the bastardised remnant of someone else's sword, ruined by a covetous old man.

 

That's my theory too, the whole thing with Longclaw and how important it has been to Jon feels like the author telling us to pay attention to this sword.  Plus, it belongs to the Mormonts, a family that is so far North, it's practically beyond The Wall.  My guess is that the sword has been in the North since Azor Ahai defeated The Others way back when and that it was entrusted to the Mormonts for safe-keeping.  But, since so much time has passed, the history and significance of the sword was lost.

I also think that Longclaw will regain its Lightbringer qualities when Jon is "reborn" as Azor Ahai.  The prophecy says: 

 

 

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.

 

I think it's quite possible that in the chaos that ensues after Jon is stabbed, there will be fire, Longclaw will be tossed or fall into a fire and Jon will get it out.  Melissandre will see this and her eyes will finally be opened.  For such an old soul who has served R'hllor for so many years, she sure is blind to all the signs that point to Jon being Azor.

Edited February 25, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Danny Franks]

I think it's quite possible that in the chaos that ensues after Jon is stabbed, there will be fire, Longclaw will be tossed or fall into a fire and Jon will get it out.  Melissandre will see this and her eyes will finally be opened.  For such an old soul who has served R'hllor for so many years, she sure is blind to all the signs that point to Jon being Azor.

 

Yeah, but I liked her POV sections in ADWD, because they painted her in a more human, fallible light. Prior to that, she was the mystical red witch, seemingly sure that she knew everything. Now we've seen her doubts and her blind spots, which is actually what has happened with all the POV characters (Jaime and Cersei for example). The curtain is drawn back on how they're not quite as competent or smart or dastardly as you believed when you saw them through the eyes of other people.

 

We know that Melisandre has been getting signals telling her Jon is the guy, and we know she's been ignoring them. So it should at least be satisfying when she finally gets hit in the face with the truth of the matter. As long as she doesn't try to set him on fire again just to be sure.

 

I think you may well be right about Longclaw as well. This series is full of storied weapons of destiny, and Longclaw seems almost forgotten in comparison. A bastard's sword, given to him by the last of the male line of a disgraced house (disgraced by Jorah, at least), tucked away on The Wall, like so many forgotten relics (hi, Aemon!). If that doesn't scream 'destiny', I don't know what does.

[Winnief]

Well I must say you're all making a good case for Longclaw being Lightbringer, (in which event I want Oathkeeper given back to Winterfell damn it!  Or at least used to help out Sansa.)

 

We know that Melisandre has been getting signals telling her Jon is the guy, and we know she's been ignoring them. So it should at least be satisfying when she finally gets hit in the face with the truth of the matter. As long as she doesn't try to set him on fire again just to be sure.

 

 

I cannot WAIT to see this. 

[leoff]

Sansa's wolf died in place of Arya's. So the girls will eventually be put in a situation where one must die so the other can live. Sansa's death will mirror Lady's, and be caught up in Arya's arc in some way.

 

I believe Arya is the one most likely to die ("when the winter comes, the lonely wolf dies and the pack survives") just like Lyanna, whom Ned found dreadfully similar to Arya. Sansa is the one adapted to survive in a pack. Predictable as it is, I would be disappointed If Sansa didn't end as a major player of the Game of Thrones. She's my lead favourite to be on the Iron Throne in the end as the Queen who outshines Cersei. If the direwolves are meant to predict anything, Arya (Nymeria) is the one who should be dead and currently is surviving based on borrowed time.

[Hecate7]

We've got word of God Arya doesn't die. She is apparently Parris Martin's favorite character and he promised her. But even if GRRM hadn't said it, I'd expect Arya to be the last one standing. Yes, Arya and Nymeria are living on borrowed time, but they're ALIVE. Lady and Sansa took her place. Arya and Nymeria will probably live forever.

 

I actually enjoy Sansa more, so I'm not wanting her to die. I'm just reading the books and that whole dire wolf thing seems to be warning us not to get too attached to her.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Hecate7

[Winnief]

Sansa's loss of Lady was certainly suggestive, but I also wonder if the show might not have been hinting something, when after Tyrion approaches Sansa after being beaten by Meryn Trant and asks if she wants out and she keeps to her "I am loyal to Joffrey' speech he says, "Lady Sansa you might survive us yet."

 

Also while I am quite confident that Arya survives to the last book in the series I'm not 100% sure she'll be alive at the end.  I remember this bit from the first book which seems like ominous foreshadowing...

 

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers

 

 

Arya dying with Needle in her hand?!?  I'm not saying I want that but it could definitely happen at the end of her story arc-especially since Martin delights in breaking our hearts.