Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint (or Something Else?)

[ByTor]

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

More then that...why the heck did Marie lie about never having sex?  Is it because in her backwards thinking mind "good women do not like sex".  This would be somewhat understandable, but I hope she was not trying to sabotage Debra and Ray's sex life, because that is beyond icky.

Yeah, that was why.  Marie even said she didn't want to be known as "The Whore of Lynbrook" :)

[BlossomCulp]

My son-in-law brought up ELR the other night and was teasing my husband and I about how much we love it.  He said he could never get into it himself because he hated the way Ray treats Debra.  I admit I was a little surprised, I guess I would have expected someone his age to think Debra was the one in the wrong whenever Ray and Debra fought but he told me he thought Debra was way too good for Ray.  So I guess Debra's a saint for him :).

[BogoGog24]

IMO it's both. There's episodes where Ray does treat her pretty poorly such as making her angry on purpose for sex or taping a football game over their wedding video. He also doesn't help her very often with the housework (except the vacuum cleaner episode) or with the kids. 

Then there are episodes where she is acting irrationally, like the episode about being late all the time, he tells her they're leaving at a certain time and she gets mad when he goes without her because she wasn't ready or the episode where Ally is being bullied and she expects the kid to deal with it herself. 

IMO that makes it more realistic instead of one always being right and the other wrong. 

[BlossomCulp]

10 minutes ago, BogoGog24 said:

IMO that makes it more realistic instead of one always being right and the other wrong. 

I agree.  With a few exceptions** I like that when Ray and Debra fight neither one is completely right or completely wrong.  That's real life.  A classic example of that is the can opener episode.  Both of them were probably tired and ready to get mad when the whole incident occurred and as a result neither was a saint but then again neither one was as bad as the other one remembered them being!  Just like a lot of fights real couples have!

** classic exception being the check book fight,  Ray was completely and totally a doofus and I like that they didn't try and make excuses for him by having Debra do something mean or underhanded so that it would end up being a wash as to who was right and who was wrong.  Ray was wrong!

[ByTor]

50 minutes ago, BogoGog24 said:

Then there are episodes where she is acting irrationally, like the episode about being late all the time, he tells her they're leaving at a certain time and she gets mad when he goes without her because she wasn't ready or the episode where Ally is being bullied and she expects the kid to deal with it herself.

HATED "Bully on the Bus" a lot!  I agreed with Ray when he called Debra the bully, she was awful in that episode.

35 minutes ago, BlossomCulp said:

** classic exception being the check book fight,  Ray was completely and totally a doofus and I like that they didn't try and make excuses for him by having Debra do something mean or underhanded so that it would end up being a wash as to who was right and who was wrong.  Ray was wrong!

I love this one, it gave us the awesome scene where we can see Robert kicking the ATM from the bank, with that awesome elevator music playing in the background.

[BlossomCulp]

And it was done more subtly than usual but they made it clear that Debra really does do everything and Ray takes it for granted.  Not so much with the chequebook but Ray was home as were Marie and Frank so why was Debra out doing banking and other errands and picking up Allie while at the same time juggling the twins?  They never even raise the expectation that Debra could leave the twins with Ray and/or the grandparents.  

Edited October 22, 2016 by BlossomCulp

[BogoGog24]

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

HATED "Bully on the Bus" a lot!  I agreed with Ray when he called Debra the bully, she was awful in that episode.

I love this one, it gave us the awesome scene where we can see Robert kicking the ATM from the bank, with that awesome elevator music playing in the background.

Yep that episode bugs me too. When they think Ally is the one being bullied Debra acts like they shouldn't step in at all and that she should deal with it by herself. Then when they find out Ally is the bully she doesn't seem to care very much. Like she isn't appalled that her daughter is bullying someone. Debra's rationale in that whole episode made no sense, what parent would seriously handle those situations like that?

[CherryAmes]

What bugged me most about the bully on the bus episode is that the big solution is to tell Allie to be a nice little girl and she agrees and that's the end of the problem.  Yeah folks it's just that simple!

On 10/22/2016 at 10:43 AM, BlossomCulp said:

And it was done more subtly than usual but they made it clear that Debra really does do everything and Ray takes it for granted.  Not so much with the chequebook but Ray was home as were Marie and Frank so why was Debra out doing banking and other errands and picking up Allie while at the same time juggling the twins?  They never even raise the expectation that Debra could leave the twins with Ray and/or the grandparents.  

I never picked up on that!  

[BlossomCulp]

I didn't the first 10 or 20 times I saw it -- LOL.  Watch it again though once you think of it and I promise you even if you are rarely on Team Debra you will find yourself wondering why with 4 adults ready and available Debra has to do EVERYTHING!

[sgrm8]

Debra isn't abusive...when she "hits Raymond" it's not meant to be abusive, it's a show, and when she calls him an idiot, I highly doubt that he would be that offended by that... Technically Raymond has manipulated Debra and mistreated her way more times than she's done it to him... Debra isn't abusive and she's not meant to be abusive

[ShadowSixx]

What if the roles were reversed though? What if Ray "hits" Debra the way she hits him and called her an idiot? Ray would be called an abusive husband and feminists groups would be calling for the show to be pulled off the air.  I personally don't believe in double standards and IMO Debra was abusive towards Ray. There was absolutely no reason for Debra to elbow Ray in the groin just because he was about to tell Robert that Marie & Debra were manipulating him to get back with Amy. No reason for Debra to push Ray into the bookcase just because she was upset with him.

The bullying episode is not one of my favorites. Especially Debra's attitude towards Allie being the bully. I didn't expect Debra to have that type of attitude towards it. I guess I can give her a buy on it because she didn't experience being bullied since she was part of the popular crowd during her school years.  Then again Debra was equating bullying to Allie being independent and a strong character which a bully is none of those things. The writers really should have given Ally a reason for bullying like she wasn't happy at home, trying to fit in with the popular kids, etc.

[ByTor]

Yes, it's a show and Debra's character was not abusive, but in the instances @ShadowSixx brought up, abusive behavior was being portrayed by the show.  And I agree, if the genders were reversed, that would be a whole nother story.

I'm not a fan of the "Bully on the Bus" one either, mainly because of Debra's attitude, but I will give her credit that she told Ray he was right when they were about to talk to Aly about it.

[BlossomCulp]

On 12/5/2016 at 11:17 PM, CherryAmes said:

 

What bugged me most about the bully on the bus episode is that the big solution is to tell Allie to be a nice little girl and she agrees and that's the end of the problem.  Yeah folks it's just that simple!

 

This is exactly why I don't like Bully on the Bus as well.  I can see that Debra and Ray had different reactions to the issue since Ray had experienced being bullied and Debra had not.  What I don't like is that once they realized what Allie was doing all they needed to do was tell her to be nice?  Really?  I totally get that the show was never supposed to be "about the kids" and that it isn't a documentary on family life but even so. C'mon people - if you don't want to deal with a serious subject at least somewhat realistically don't write about it!!

[penbrat]

I like Times Patricia Heaton in “The Middle”.  I was never a fan of her portrayal of Debra on ELR.  While Ray was annoying, Debra was over the top mean to him (IMO)  Shrill harpy indeed.  Perhaps not Patricia Heaton’s fault, maybe just the way it was written, but Debra was my least favorite character on this show.

[ByTor]

On 6/7/2017 at 9:54 AM, penbrat said:

I like Times Patricia Heaton in “The Middle”.  I was never a fan of her portrayal of Debra on ELR.  While Ray was annoying, Debra was over the top mean to him (IMO)  Shrill harpy indeed.  Perhaps not Patricia Heaton’s fault, maybe just the way it was written, but Debra was my least favorite character on this show.

I always blamed it on PH, but after seeing her on The Middle (I like her there as well) I'm convinced it was the writing/directing.

[BlossomCulp]

I know the episode "Bad Moon Rising" is based on Phil Rosenthal's wife - Monica Horan aka Amy - I always wondered how she appreciated that episode.  

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 6/13/2017 at 5:04 PM, BlossomCulp said:

I know the episode "Bad Moon Rising" is based on Phil Rosenthal's wife - Monica Horan aka Amy - I always wondered how she appreciated that episode.  

I loved Bad Moon Rising and thought it was hysterical.  Many people did not find it all that funny but the whole "Here!  Take a pill!" part cracked me up!

[Guest]

I really hate Debra in Boob Job. She fakes Ray out into thinking she had surgery, then was mad because he liked it. If he had responded negatively, she would have been insulted as well. I can see why she didn't like his original "not if you think it's stupid." But she totally overreacted.

[CherryAmes]

Yeah, I like that episode right up until the "big reveal" after that it just didn't make any sense.   I could totally understand Debra feeling insecure about her body - I think most women who've had three kids (and especially a set of twins) would understand her feelings, but the way they wrote her attitude towards Ray made him completely unable to say the right thing.  Even her telling him he should have said "I love your body the way it is and you shouldn't change anything" made me think that even if he had said exactly that she still would have gotten mad.  Well of course if she hadn't we wouldn't have had a show!  But still I wish they had had Ray be a little more stupid in his response so that her anger made more sense.

[Guest]

I think that's why I think Debra sets herself up to be the victim in so many circumstances.  Ray (who trust me, is very flawed. Not arguing otherwise) is truly damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.  (Other times he's just a childish jerk.)

[ButterQueen]

On 6/30/2017 at 2:54 PM, Mrs. Hanson said:

I loved Bad Moon Rising and thought it was hysterical.  Many people did not find it all that funny but the whole "Here!  Take a pill!" part cracked me up!

.......and you need a prescription for bitchy.   ?????

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

.......and you need a prescription for bitchy.   ?????

I used to not like it, but I really like it now.  Marie's "oh look, Frank's toenails just walked right into the garbage can" always makes me laugh.  I always love when Debra and Marie team up against Raymond/Marie sides against Raymond. It's rare enough that it hasn't been overused.

[Mrs. Hanson]

3 hours ago, ButterQueen said:

.......and you need a prescription for bitchy.   ?????

You probably DO need a prescription for bitchy.

Speaking of real life scenarios being used to write an episode:  The Suitcase was based on a writer coming to work complaining that his wife wouldn't put away a suitcase.  That one struck a nerve for MANY MANY couples!!  (It did for me!!)  I have a girlfriend who had her husband working from home (and this was BEFORE the episode on ELR aired) who asked her hubby to go back to the office cause he drive her crazy!!  "Honey?  Can you keep the kids quiet?"  "No, they are ages 3 year old twins and an 18 month old toddler.....so no."  I called her and was like, "Lisa!!!  You have to watch this!!"  LOL!

Edited July 14, 2017 by Mrs. Hanson

[BlossomCulp]

On 6/30/2017 at 2:54 PM, Mrs. Hanson said:

I loved Bad Moon Rising and thought it was hysterical.  Many people did not find it all that funny but the whole "Here!  Take a pill!" part cracked me up!

A lot of people complain about how violent Debra is to Ray in this episode but aside from the fact that it's played for laughs it's more than obvious that petite Debra isn't going to be able to inflict much damage on Ray.  Anyway it's funny how the people who get annoyed that Debra pushes Ray never seem to talk about the episode where Ray. trying to remove a splinter from Debra's hand. pursues her around the living room, blocks her efforts to get away and eventually pins her to the ground, won't let her get up, and finally very painfully removes the splinter and then almost passes out because he's made her bleed.  I just saw this episode and it's actually a little scary the way Ray overpowers Debra and won't let her get away.  Of course Ray wouldn't ever be abusive to Debra and I don't for one minute think this episode was showing that happening but it was definitely clear that physically at least Ray is bigger, stronger and could inflict some damage if he wanted to!

Edited July 15, 2017 by BlossomCulp

[Maharincess]

I hate the PMS episode. Abuse is abuse whether the abuser can commit damage or not. 

[CherryAmes]

1 hour ago, BlossomCulp said:

 I just saw this episode and it's actually a little scary the way Ray overpowers Debra and won't let her get away.

I never thought of it that way but I saw this episode tonight as well and now that I've read your comment it is a little scary the way he won't let her leave the room and then manhandles her and pins her down.  I agree it's not abuse and was never meant to be abuse but that's also true of the Bad Moon Rising episode.  The writers are using physical comedy and sometimes I think things are taken to an extreme that makes the audience uncomfortable.

[schnauzergirl]

It's been a long time since I've seen the episode where Ray pins Debra to the floor, but wasn't it the one where he ignored her choking?  Ray, being Ray, had to prove he could handle emergencies, so chasing her, pinning her to the floor, etc. was for HIM, not for Debra.  

[BlossomCulp]

13 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

The writers are using physical comedy and sometimes I think things are taken to an extreme that makes the audience uncomfortable.

Well for that matter with regard to the way Ray treats Debra and getting uncomfortable I really hate when he lies to others about her over spending and especially about her drinking.  It's not true, it was never true and yet this is a go to lie he uses often enough that people (ok well Marie) believes it to be true.  I know for me personally if I thought my husband was excusing his own screw ups by lying to people and blaming me I'd feel very betrayed.  Is that abuse?  Arguably not but it's pretty crappy.

[Snow Apple]

Debra wrote a letter to Dear Abby today, 7/16/17

http://www.uexpress.com/dearabby/2017/7/16/hard-working-dad-needs-help-relating-to

[ShadowSixx]

The Lucky Suit episode I really didn't like when Debra told Robert that Marie was trying to help with the letter she faxed over to the FBI guy. I'm glad that Robert was like you gonna stand there and say something like that, because Debra of all people know what Marie's version of "helping" really means. Then Debra agrees and says Marie isn't a saboteur and I was like did she forget about the damn meatballs incident. Would have been funny if Robert brought it up. 

[CherryAmes]

She was just trying to defuse a tense situation. No way did she really think Marie was doing the wrong thing but for good reasons!  This was a side of Debra we saw a few times over the course of the series.  No matter how angry she got with Marie she didn't want her getting jumped on (verbally of course) and hurt by the guys.

[missmansfield]

I just found this thread and am eager to vent.  I used to live watching this show until I had just had it with Debra.  I think she is an absolute C***.  I am horrified by her attitude and behavior.  Ray works and she does not have to, which to me means she should take care of the house and kids.  But she does not even want to do THAT!  She is downright abusive to him, verbally AND physically. I have seen her hit him.  If the situation was reversed and he did that to her people would riot, but because she is a female its OK for her to do it to him.

There was an episode about "The angry family" that REALLY bothered me.  The kids teacher called the family in to talk about it and Debra went on a screaming rant about how Marie constantly barges into their house and generally carries in how horrible a "circus" life she has.

I could not believe what I was hearing!  I thought 'You spoiled bitch, you have no idea how great you have it'.  There are families out there where both parents work, sometimes just to pay for child care.  Debra has a mother in law who is always there to help her with anything from childcare to housecare (for free). There are people who live in abusive relationships and some just live really hard stressful lives.  An annoying mother in law is NOT a big life problem.

[ByTor]

So @missmansfield, I guess your vote is for "shrill harpy." :)

[missmansfield]

Just now, ByTor said:

So @missmansfield, I guess your vote is for "shrill harpy." :)

Yep, hey it's my friend from DCC land!

[ByTor]

Just now, missmansfield said:

Yep, hey it's my friend from DCC land!

haha yep!  I guess we need to occupy ourselves with another show while we wait for our DCC drama to unfold!

[CherryAmes]

1 hour ago, missmansfield said:

 Ray works and she does not have to, which to me means she should take care of the house and kids.

I've been in Debra's shoes, well partially.  I didn't work out side the home until my kids were in school.  That DID NOT make me the family maid.  And it didn't give my husband a get out of jail free card when it came time to spending time with his own kids.   The shows where Ray is actually a caring involved father were few and far between.  I could cut him some slack in the housework department (maybe) but there is no way I would ever do that where being a father to his kids comes into play.

[ByTor]

My sister was a SAHM when her kids were younger.  Her feeling was that it was more or less her job to be "family maid" (in the sense of doing housework/cooking), but spending time with the kids is the job of both parents.  Same thing with my mother, actually.  She did the daily cleaning/cooking, but it was almost like my mother's "kid shift" was over when my father came home from work & he took over with us.

[CherryAmes]

Exactly.  And frankly anyone who thinks Ray would have behaved differently had Debra worked outside the home is clearly not watching the same show I've been watching!  Ray wasn't doing damn all around the house not because he felt it was Debra's job but because he was too lazy to move off the sofa.  I've known lots of women who work full-time who still don't get any real help from hubbie.  That's exactly what life would have been like for Debra too.  She'd have worked all day, picked up the kids and then done everything, just like she was already doing.  Well except for the few occasions when for reasons of the plot Ray lifted a finger around that house.

Edited August 16, 2017 by CherryAmes

[BlossomCulp]

18 hours ago, missmansfield said:

 Debra has a mother in law who is always there to help her with anything from childcare to housecare (for free). There are people who live in abusive relationships and some just live really hard stressful lives.  An annoying mother in law is NOT a big life problem.

Marie crossed a line from annoying to evil somewhere along the 5th or 6th season.   And if all she'd ever done was help that would be fine.  Debra wanted the help, what she didn't bargain on was the constant carping, fault finding and criticism.

Edited August 16, 2017 by BlossomCulp

[ByTor]

7 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

I've known lots of women who work full-time who still don't get any real help from hubbie.  That's exactly what life would have been like for Debra too.

That's why he didn't want her getting that job in Working Girl.  Also why he didn't want her as PTA president.  He was too afraid Debra wouldn't stand for that kind of life.

Edited August 16, 2017 by ByTor

[BlossomCulp]

17 hours ago, ByTor said:

That's why he didn't want her getting that job in Working Girl.  Also why he didn't want her as PTA president.  He was too afraid Debra wouldn't stand for that kind of life.

It's also why I don't have a lot of sympathy with the attitude that Debra chose to be at home so tough luck to her.  Ray wanted Debra home and made no bones about how he felt about her getting any kind of job, even volunteer work.  Her staying home was clearly a mutual decision they both had come to and that, for the most part, both were happy with.  I will never understand why this mutually agreed upon choice they made somehow means that Debra doesn't get to expect any help from Ray!  She didn't sign up to be Ray's servant, she is his wife and her being home means they have a lifestyle that Ray wants them to have.  That means he has to step up now and then and do something more than bring home a paycheque!  Hell he doesn't even do the stereotypical "guy" jobs like repairs around the house or garden work.  Frank does that.  But hey it's all good, Ray has more time for golf and other games with his friends.

[CherryAmes]

On 8/17/2017 at 10:27 AM, BlossomCulp said:

She didn't sign up to be Ray's servant, she is his wife and her being home means they have a lifestyle that Ray wants them to have.

Bingo.  Debra being home was at least as much because that was what Ray wanted as it was what Debra wanted (and of course what the writers and producers wanted :) ).   He didn't keep regular hours at the best of times and was often away for days at a time.  Was it really too much to expect a little help from him when he was around?  I don't think so!  Besides which Debra rarely asked him for help around the house once the kids got past a certain age.  What she wanted from him was to not make extra work for her - like maybe he could put his own clothes in the hamper and not mess up the living room pigging out with his friends.  Not seeing the reason for outrage with that!  Anyway mainly Debra wanted Ray to spend time with the family.  Although you'd think she'd learn that wasn't such a good idea!  I just saw the episode with one of the twins playing basketball and Ray makes a total fool of himself.  If I'd been Debra I'd have taken Ray aside later and said "you know honey you don't really need to go to see basketball games, I'll tape them for you".

[BlossomCulp]

On 8/18/2017 at 11:27 AM, CherryAmes said:

 Anyway mainly Debra wanted Ray to spend time with the family.  

Definitely.  And even with regard to helping out, the first season or two showed Ray pitching in.  The pilot has him coming through the door and immediately helping Debra with the kids - and given they had twin babies and a preschooler at the time that made perfect sense!  Somehow as the years went on they thought it would be funnier I guess to have Ray become a total jerk where helping out was concerned and had him focus on getting golf or sex whenever he was home.  If I'd been Debra I'd have been royally pissed off with him a lot of the time too!  IMO she didn't get mad at him often enough!

[Sweets]

Shrill Harpy gets my vote.

One particular episode that bugged me was 'Ally's F'. Ally had good grades in all her classes except Math. Debra was hellbent on Ally being the problem when any realistic person would conclude something else must be going on if she was excelling in her other classes. It took the teacher being rude to her towards the end of the episode before she finally ruled him as the problem. The whole thing irked me.

Also, she knew how intrusive Ray's family was before marrying him. That was the same family who interrupted their date night - even bringing the priest along- in a flashback episode. That's nowhere near normal and should've been an instant red flag. In another flashback (after they were married but still living in an apartment), Marie was trying to break down the door to tell Ray the pregnancy news before Debra could get the chance. But Debra still insisted on living right across the street from them...regardless of all the red flags, topped by Ray's warning about it. That could be why he wasn't compelled to fight battles for her once she got fed up with the family because he felt she had already been warned by him. Maybe subconsciously he also resented her for it.

Ray used work as a temporary escape from Debra. I felt bad for him when she started insisting he work from home in one episode. Yes, he could be a man child but the man could do NO right as far as she was concerned. Even in the 'Annoying Kid' episode when he was correcting that misbehaving child she didn't take his side. Well, at least not until that couple said something passive about their kids.

I saw the superbowl episode mentioned in here. I can somewhat understand why she felt slighted about not being asked. But then I can't really blame him because she was a wet blanket once he did fly her in. It was the SB but It was also a work related trip where it would be expected he would meet up with colleagues and rub elbows. It's like she wanted to turn it into their 2nd honeymoon. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Sweets

[ByTor]

7 hours ago, Sweets said:

One particular episode that bugged me was 'Ally's F'. Ally had good grades in all her classes except Math. Debra was hellbent on Ally being the problem when any realistic person would conclude something else must be going on if she was excelling in her other classes. It took the teacher being rude to her towards the end of the episode before she finally ruled him as the problem. The whole thing irked me.

Actually, it wasn't the teacher that was the problem, it was because some boy she had a crush on was in that class with her.  Debra told the teacher & she expected him to understand that that was why Ally wasn't paying attention in class, and the teacher pointed out that he knew about Ally's crush, everybody knew about Ally's crush, but he really doesn't give a crap, he's there to teach math.  The only rude thing he said was "I have 30 distracted chatterboxes on their way in here to get this wrong! If you really wanna help, be a parent at home and let me be the teacher here."  Besides that, I thought he was spot on, but of course since he wouldn't help keep poor little special snowflake Ally focused (how was he supposed to do that anyway???), he was a meanie and everything was all his fault. 

7 hours ago, Sweets said:

I saw the superbowl episode mentioned in here. I can somewhat understand why she felt slighted about not being asked. But then I can't really blame him because she was a wet blanket once he did fly her in. It was the SB but It was also a work related trip where it would be expected he would meet up with colleagues and rub elbows.

Right???  Didn't she see that the other wives had no problem with their husbands playing golf?  Was it so hard for her to believe it wasn't all about her?  I know golf was always a sore subject with her, but she worked for the New York Rangers, she had to know work-related golf outings existed (pretty much all professional athletes love golf) AND she had to know how you, as an employee, would be viewed if you didn't attend.

Edited September 19, 2017 by ByTor

[CherryAmes]

What bothered me about the Ally's failing math episode was that while I thought the teacher was a jerk I also thought it was completely unlikely that Debra, or any other parent, would go BACK to the school to tell the teacher that their child had a crush on another student.  If she thought this was vital information then a phone call (and nowadays an email) would have sufficed.  Of course if logical thinking was the basis for most sitcom writing we'd miss a lot of funny scenes!!

[Sweets]

6 hours ago, ByTor said:

Actually, it wasn't the teacher that was the problem, it was because some boy she had a crush on was in that class with her.  Debra told the teacher & she expected him to understand that that was why Ally wasn't paying attention in class, and the teacher pointed out that he knew about Ally's crush, everybody knew about Ally's crush, but he really doesn't give a crap, he's there to teach math.  The only rude thing he said was "I have 30 distracted chatterboxes on their way in here to get this wrong! If you really wanna help, be a parent at home and let me be the teacher here."  Besides that, I thought he was spot on, but of course since he wouldn't help keep poor little special snowflake Ally focused (how was he supposed to do that anyway???), he was a meanie and everything was all his fault. 

Right???  Didn't she see that the other wives had no problem with their husbands playing golf?  Was it so hard for her to believe it wasn't all about her?  I know golf was always a sore subject with her, but she worked for the New York Rangers, she had to know work-related golf outings existed (pretty much all professional athletes love golf) AND she had to know how you, as an employee, would be viewed if you didn't attend.

Thanks. I remember she had the crush but for some reason I thought it ended with the teacher being the major part of the issue. It's been a while since I watched but I do know Debra worked my nerves that episode. Lol.

Regarding the SB episode, you can see how much she really cared about it....she was fast asleep as Ray and Gianni were watching. 

[Sweets]

6 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

What bothered me about the Ally's failing math episode was that while I thought the teacher was a jerk I also thought it was completely unlikely that Debra, or any other parent, would go BACK to the school to tell the teacher that their child had a crush on another student.  If she thought this was vital information then a phone call (and nowadays an email) would have sufficed.  Of course if logical thinking was the basis for most sitcom writing we'd miss a lot of funny scenes!!

I was thinking the same thing. That's probably why I thought it ended with Ray being right about the teacher being the problem. 

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, Sweets said:

That's probably why I thought it ended with Ray being right about the teacher being the problem. 

Well, Debra DID say it was the teacher that was the problem at the end, but the reason the episode annoyed me is because it really was because Ally had a crush on a boy...Debra refused to let Ally take responsibility in the end, much like when Debra blew off Ally bullying poor Judy Hooty, who may or may not have cooties :)

[Guest]

I think the teacher was part of the problem. Part of teaching is reaching your students, and he said several times he only cared about the math. I don't think Ray was wrong that he was part of the problem, but he did let Ally off the hook too easy.