Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint (or Something Else?)

[CherryAmes]

 I always thought Ray's behavior in that episode was a lot worse.  First it never even occurred to him to bring Debra along at all and then the main reason he does  is because he knows the other wives will probably mention to her that they were there.  Typical Ray.

[ByTor]

I didn't agree with Deb's behavior when Ray has to go to the super bowl and she is offended that he doesn't intend to spend every minute with her-- unreasonable.

This is one of the episodes I can't rewatch because Debra's behavior makes me that angry. So she's supposed to hang out all day while he golfs? Yep, it was a work assignment, and the golf was part of it.  And it really bugged me that she wasn't self aware enough to see that the other wives had no problem with their husbands going off during the day to fulfill work obligations rather than kissing their asses 24/7.

[Guest]

This is one of the episodes I can't rewatch because Debra's behavior makes me that angry. So she's supposed to hang out all day while he golfs? Yep, it was a work assignment, and the golf was part of it.  And it really bugged me that she wasn't self aware enough to see that the other wives had no problem with their husbands going off during the day to fulfill work obligations rather than kissing their asses 24/7.

Ugh, all of this.  He didn't bring her because he didn't think she'd be interested.  Then he realizes he should have brought her.  So she comes, but expects it to be like a vacation.  If all the other wives had been doing things with their husband and she hadn't, that would be one thing. But instead because she didn't get her way exactly, she ruined the trip for Raymond as well.  She got a child-free vacation to a nice location. But she had to make it all about her and ruin it.

[CleoCaesar]

First it never even occurred to him to bring Debra along at all

 

Why would it have? It was a work trip and Debra isn't the least bit interested in football. I thought it was unreasonable of her to just assume she was going. It's not like he was invited to a conference in the Bahamas or something - then I could understand it being a fun trip. This was a football game with tens of thousands of fans packed into a stadium. Hardly fun and romance, at least for Debra.

[Inquisitionist]

I think the point is that it never occurred to Ray to ask Debra if, given the circumstances of the weekend, she would like to go.  When there's a free trip involved, it's a good policy to always check with your spouse first.  :-)

[ByTor]

I think the point is that it never occurred to Ray to ask Debra if, given the circumstances of the weekend, she would like to go.  When there's a free trip involved, it's a good policy to always check with your spouse first.  :-)

I definitely don't disagree with that, it wasn't a good idea to not ask her, but IMO that's the only thing he did wrong.

[CherryAmes]

I think the point is that it never occurred to Ray to ask Debra if, given the circumstances of the weekend, she would like to go.

 

Especially since it looked like every other guy down there had brought his wife!  Some guys don't need to buy a clue that their wife might enjoy  vacation in a nice hotel somewhere.  Most particularly when you're barely going to be working yourself - Ray had to cover one press conference the rest of the time was his own to enjoy.  Deb may have overreacted but she was hurt.  First Ray doesn't even consider taking her and then when he does send for her he makes it clear he isn't going to spend any time with her other than bedtime.  And she's supposed to be happy about that?   I'd have told him off too!

[LADreamr]

Ray is in no way perfect, but I have to be with him on this one. She doesn't even read his column; she shows little interest in or respect for his work, much of the time, even though he has been shown to be very accomplished and respected in his field. He's passionate about it and supports them in a very nice way with it, and yet she's only marginally interested. I don't see how he could have known she'd want to be a part of this. I would just as easily expect her to roll her eyes and call him an idiot.

[Guest]

Ray is in no way perfect, but I have to be with him on this one. She doesn't even read his column; she shows little interest in or respect for his work, much of the time, even though he has been shown to be very accomplished and respected in his field. He's passionate about it and supports them in a very nice way with it, and yet she's only marginally interested. I don't see how he could have known she'd want to be a part of this. I would just as easily expect her to roll her eyes and call him an idiot.

"Yes, I want to go to the trouble of getting a babysitter - ask YOUR MOM for help - so I can go to a football game.  Idiot."

 

I don't think he really saw it as a vacation.  He traveled for work all the time, and it never seemed to be a consideration for Debra to accompany him. I think he didn't realize how different the Super Bowl trip would be from what he was used to - the only other trip we saw much of mainly involved him sitting in a hotel room spinning his wedding ring.

[CherryAmes]

If he didn't see it as a vacation then why did he ask Gianni to go with him?  He knew he had lucked in to a great gig - he got two free tickets to the super bowl, he only had to attend one press conference and he was staying, at no expense to himself, in a pretty classy hotel.  I don't believe for one minute that the writers expected us to think Ray was going to be working hard all week-end!  Far from it.  That he never even thought of asking Deb to go could be excused if none of the other guys heading down to the super bowl had asked their wives.  Clearly though, they had and to the point where someone had organized activities for the wives to attend while the husbands "worked" on the golf course.  Sorry but while Deb may not have handled things well when she realized what was going on Ray set her up being typically, selfishly Ray.

Edited June 16, 2015 by CherryAmes

[Inquisitionist]

Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint

 

Why does it have to be either/or? She was written as both, sometimes in the same episode!

 

If he didn't see it as a vacation then why did he ask Gianni to go with him?  He knew he had lucked in to a great gig - he got two free tickets to the super bowl, he only had to attend one press conference and he was staying, at no expense to himself, in a pretty classy hotel.

 

I don't remember the details, as this is not one of my favorite episodes, but that sounds about right.  As soon as he knew he had an extra ticket, he thought about who he'd enjoy watching the game with, and that wasn't Debra.  I understand the impulse, but when something this big and unusual drops in one's lap, see if your spouse is interested! 

[CherryAmes]

Why does it have to be either/or? She was written as both, sometimes in the same episode!

 

Heh, for that matter sometimes in the same scene!

[Guest]

Heh, for that matter sometimes in the same scene!

I think this sums it up.

 

Back to the Super Bowl, I think he knew going to the game was going to be exciting, and was stupid not to ask Debra if she wanted to go. Because even if someone doesn't like sports in general - IT'S THE SUPER BOWL!  But I don't think him making a thoughtless move justifies her reaction.

[ByTor]

Heh, for that matter sometimes in the same scene!

Good point :) 

 

I fall asleep to Raymond every night, and last night I finished up the episodes where Debra/Marie weren't speaking.  I'm not crazy about how Debra has a tendency to take her frustrations over Marie out on Raymond (not that there wasn't plenty about Raymond to make her frustrated!), so I really like how this whole thing transpired.  Marie could tell the kids weren't behaving, and if I were Debra I also would have blown up over Marie barging in unannounced with other people and insisting on hearing knock-knock jokes.  Marie was clearly in the wrong IMO, yet she still made it all about her and got snarky about Debra having no control over the kids.

[ShadowSixx]

How about when Marco started hanging out with Marie and then Frank got upset and Frank and Marco started hanging out. Marie and Debra both dragged Ray into the middle of it even though earlier Debra said that Ray should stay out of it, but then tells Ray to tell Frank not to hang out with Marco anymore. I was like WTH, you can't have it both ways.

[CherryAmes]

Marie was clearly in the wrong IMO, yet she still made it all about her and got snarky about Debra having no control over the kids.

 

What I particularly liked about this episode, and especially this initial scene, was that you could see both sides.  I agree completely that Marie was out of line to just show up with people and want to do "the grandma show".  On the other hand I could also sympathize with Marie for being embarrassed by the way Debra treated her in front of her friends. 

 

I also admit I didn't buy the idea that it's late afternoon and Debra is about to put kids that age into baths.  Nonsense.  Most of the time time on ELR the writers are pretty good about keeping things real.  Sometimes though they really blew it and this was one of those times.  But of course they had to have a reason for Debra to be involved with the kids and not appreciate Marie just showing up.

Edited July 8, 2015 by CherryAmes

[ByTor]

I just saw that one where Robert & Amy had that 3-month anniversary party (the dramatic way Robert and Amy set the table will never not be funny), and for the life of me I can't figure out what Debra's problem is.  There was the scene where Raymond was trying to do Robert's suggestion of holding hands, Raymond asked Debra to not grind his knuckles, she says his hand is lying there like a dead fish, then she gets all pissy with the "do you care about me at ALL?!?!?!" after he tried to make nice (even making fun of himself with the "hold my flipper" comment).  I think in that instance it was a case of her getting angry for the sake of her being angry at the dinner.

[Inquisitionist]

I could also sympathize with Marie for being embarrassed by the way Debra treated her in front of her friends.

 

IMO, Marie deserved to be shamed on occasion, and this was one of them. 

[LADreamr]

It was Marie's fault it even went that far. Debra was trying to tell her it was a bad time, but she always has to have everything exactly her way. I'm not a great fan of Debra's, but in this instance she had no other choice but to be that direct.

[ShadowSixx]

I was on Debra's side as well in regards to Marie just popping over and expecting Debra to put everything on hold for the sake of Marie and her friends. Marie seen that Debra had her hands full and didn't care.

 

I agree about Debra getting upset with Ray over him taking Robert's advice on holding her hand. When Ray touched her hand she says that she's not in the mood for sex and Ray tells her he wants to hold her hand. He tells her that she has a way of grinding his knuckles when she's holding his hand and she gets upset and says that can't be the reason why Ray doesn't hold her hand. It's like she can never be wrong or have any flaws but so happily points out his flaws, just like when Ray had a problem with her touching him in bed. Ray had a very good reason not to like it cause she had her hand all in her face, knee by his groin and at one point caused him to fall off the bed.

[LADreamr]

The time he fell out of bed, it was actually Ally who kicked him in her sleep. But I never got what was supposed to be so great about Debra. She had a point a lot of the time when she was mad at Ray, but she could be a pain in the ass too, and he was never allowed to say anything without her becoming a bully to him. I was glad for the few times he did get in her face. She could be as entitled as Marie, and sometimes as sexist as the men. I'm on her side with a lot, but the things that made her unattractive would have been big deal breakers for me.

[ByTor]

The time he fell out of bed, it was actually Ally who kicked him in her sleep.

In Season 3's "Move Over", where Raymond couldn't sleep because of Debra's need to cuddle (they were married long enough, why is this an issue just now???), I thought there was a scene where Ray kept moving away from Debra to get some space, she moved closer and ended up kicking him out of bed.  Either the thing with Aly kicking him out of bed was a different episode or I'm remembering wrong (I don't like Debra in "Move Over" so that's not one I rewatch often.)

[CherryAmes]

I don't remember him actually falling out of bed in that episode (although he might have) but she was certainly all over him and not, as Ray would say "in a good way".  That episode annoyed me the same way  as the AIS episode (ass in seat where Debra is supposedly always late) and the PMS episode (where Debra is bitchier than usual) and, my favourite hate, the one where Robert is poor for a whole 1/2 hour.  They brought up something pretty serious that was never addressed before or addressed again.  Very annoying.  I get that it's a sitcom and they can't be always addressing subjects they've dealt with before but it still bugs me!

[LADreamr]

Oh sorry, I forgot about "Move Over." I don't like that one, either, so I usually skip it.

[Guest]

Oh, I hate the AIS show.  I think Debra is so very wrong in that one.  But I hate dealing with people who are consistently late, so I may be biased.

[ByTor]

 the AIS episode

 

the one where Robert is poor for a whole 1/2 hour. 

Where I live there's a private school called the Agnes Irwin School.  Some people have those static stickers in their car windows for the school & they simply say AIS.  I always call it the "Ass in Seat" school to myself :)

 

That one where Robert is poor...I can't watch him dip his baloney in the orange juice.  Just typing it turns my stomach!

[Harry24]

I forgot about "Move Over." I don't like that one, either, so I usually skip it.

 

I don't particularly like that one either, but it has the saving grace of a Father Hubley appearance, complete with awesome stink-eye.

[LADreamr]

He was always wonderful. I especially liked him in "The Angry Family."

[Inquisitionist]

"I was promised lasagna." -- Father Hubley

[Snow Apple]

Like others mentioned, I hated the one where Debra is late and Ray left without her. Instead of catching a ride with Robert/Amy or calling a cab or, heck, change into pajamas and watching TV, she just sat there all night with that curling iron stuck to her head and fuming. But I suspect she enjoyed wallowing in her self-righteous fury. It's not like she wasn't warned nor did she lose her voice to scream down (lord knows she can make herself heard).

 

I dislike the whole family in different degrees, but Debra holds a special place.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Snow Apple

[CherryAmes]

She could have screamed at the top of her voice and Ray still wouldn't have heard as he was too busy sulking in the car waiting for her to be ready instead of spending a few extra minutes with his kids or talking to Robert and Amy who were nice enough to be babysitting for them.  She was ready to go, admittedly timing things tightly, but things went wrong, if Ray had been an adult instead of a big baby he would have known that - instead he decided she didn't really love him or something so off he went to the wherever it was they were going that had the bacon wrapped shrimp.  That being so much more important than giving Debra the benefit of 5 extra minutes before she needed to be AIS.  Ray gets no sympathy from me.

[Inquisitionist]

She could have screamed at the top of her voice and Ray still wouldn't have heard as he was too busy sulking in the car waiting for her to be ready instead of spending a few extra minutes with his kids or talking to Robert and Amy who were nice enough to be babysitting for them. 

 

Yeah, what if she had had a stroke in the bathroom?  You always check on your spouse before driving off!  Yeah, Debra was cutting it close, and Ray would have been justified in getting pissed off once he knew the reason for her lateness, but he didn't bother to find out before taking off in a snit, and that was a big no-no, in my book. (and in Frank's, too!)

[Guest]

I disagree.  People who are chronically late shouldn't expect a pass because that one time they had a legitimate reason.  If anything, she shouldn't have had to curl her hair "one last time" when she was so close to the time she had agreed to be in the car.  She knew her habitual lateness hurt Ray's feelings to the point where he felt she didn't care. She should have made an effort to be early just that once.

[ByTor]

Whether Debra was right or wrong (I side with "wrong", but I'm the type who considers myself to be running late if I'm 15 minutes early), it was beyond ridiculous that she sat there all night with that stupid curling brush in her hair.

[Guest]

Whether Debra was right or wrong (I side with "wrong", but I'm the type who considers myself to be running late if I'm 15 minutes early), it was beyond ridiculous that she sat there all night with that stupid curling brush in her hair.

 

I think that's one of my problems with Debra's character. Multiple times throughout the series, she chooses to stew instead of take action to fix the problem.  It's like she enjoys playing the martyr.  In this case, it was choosing not to remove a curling iron from her hair. Bigger picture - she could have urged Ray to try to move to a different neighborhood. If that was too much, she could have locked her door.

 

Instead, she doesn't take actions to change painful/uncomfortable situations because she'd rather stew, play the victim, and rail out against Raymond (who is far from innocent, lest I be misunderstood).

[CherryAmes]

I think my basic problem with this episode is that they made it seem like Debra is chronically late but this is an aspect of her character that isn't mentioned before and I don't think is mentioned again.  If anything it's Ray who has the timekeeping problem - as in never getting home when he is supposed to because of things like Gianni having to stop and pet a deer.  Uh huh.  So anyway we have 9 years worth of episodes where Ray is the one who is never home for dinner, is always on the road (in theory) and puts his own needs and wants and those of his friends before going home to his family and then out of nowhere we're supposed to believe that Ray is Mr On Time or even Mr Early and Debra is the one dragging her feet,  Don't buy it.

[FormerMod-a1]

I don't recall Ray always being late.  Yes, he travels for work, but there I don't remember anything about him missing dinners or what have you.   Yes, he didn't want to help out anywhere - dinner, dishes, kids, etc - and no, that's not good, but that's not the same as running late.

 

That said, I agree it wasn't a plot before or after for Debra either.  And sitting with that curling iron in her hair for what had to be hours, if nothing else, that had to hurt having that dangle off her head for so long.  

[CherryAmes]

Ray isn't always late in terms of them getting ready to go somewhere together - where he's always late is in terms of the time he says he is going to come home and the time he actually shows up.  This is a recurring theme  throughout the show but particularly in the early years.  Now that I am babysitting my toddler grandson on a regular basis I am even more sympathetic to how Debra must have felt being home with 3 young children and a husband she couldn't depend on to even come home for dinner (so by 6 ish I guess).  That would have driven me crazy back when I was home with my kids but now that I am older and more tired I think I'd probably burst into tears if I was alone with a toddler from first thing in the morning until they went to bed at night!  The horror!

[ByTor]

I remember in a very early season Debra went to Ray's workplace to bring him lemon chicken (Ray was in a habit of having dinner at the office & Marie had read an article that said men who are unhappy in their marriages tend to do that), and when she gets there he's eating pizza watching Wheel of Fortune with the guys and of course not working.  This is what prompted Debra to ask Ray to start working from home.

[Inquisitionist]

it was beyond ridiculous that she sat there all night with that stupid curling brush in her hair.

 

Comedy!  It was pretty funny when Ray walked in and saw her like that.

 

 It's like she enjoys playing the martyr.  

 

For sure.  Ray even called her on it, at least once.   Again, comedy!  :-)

[ByTor]

Comedy!  It was pretty funny when Ray walked in and saw her like that.

This, IMO, was one of those things that was too ridiculous to be funny.

[VCRTracking]

Maybe this is shallow but I think it was easier to sympathize with Debra when she was dressed frumpier and less glam looking in the early seasons when Patricia Heaton had that not-as-flattering short haircut.

[Snow Apple]

Yeah, I don't understand why they all fawn over her like she's the most beautiful and sexy thing to walk the earth and Ray is lucky to land her. Ray is lucky to find someone willing to put up with him at all, but I think they're evenly matched in the looks department. She's nice looking, but keep pointing out she's so beautiful and sexy just draws attention that she's not, even after the makeover and surgeries. 

[VCRTracking]

Huh? The only people who do that are Ray and Robert. Ray is her husband and often quite horny and Robert has ever really done that and it's only as a joke when it slips out in front of Amy. When Stefania shows up she's usually the gorgeous woman in the room and they mention that.

 

Though I agree when you see pics of her back in 1992 when she was in Beethoven(with David Duchovny) the difference is noticable.

Edited August 5, 2015 by VCRTracking

[momofsquid]

Huh? The only people who do that are Ray and Robert. Ray is her husband and often quite horny and Robert has ever really done that and it's only as a joke when it slips out inf front of Amy. When Stefania shows up she's usually the gorgeous woman in the room and they mention that.

There have been a few other examples though. Marie sometimes acts as though Debra carries on as a sexpot, suggesting to me that she resents Debra's looks (as well as everything else about her!). I can't think of an example but I think Frank has made some suggestive remarks. There was also the episode where Debra hung out with the guys at the lodge, though the old men would probably have been all over any young woman. I think showing Debra as too attractive for Ray is a device they pull out when they feel like it, even though Patricia Heaton's looks don't support it. 

[VCRTracking]

Again, there aren't that many examples I can think of. Lois on Family Guy is the bigger WTF to me. Other characters are always going on about how hot she is, Brian the freaking dog wants to have sex with her, even though by the standards of that cartoon she's not even remotely beautiful. Meanwhile poor Meg gets treated like a hideous beast, even though she has the same features in her design.

 

When Ray Romano was on Parenthood I was rooting for her and Lauren Graham(a much more attractive woman than Heaton) to get together but that's because he was playing a much nicer guy than Ray Barone.

Edited August 5, 2015 by VCRTracking

[Snow Apple]

I think Ray's friends also went on about her in a few flashback episodes. 

 

I really liked Deb in flashbacks. She was sweet. However, it was funny when she realized she's now "one of them" after seeing the expression on Amy's face in the Good Girl episode.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Snow Apple

[ByTor]

I think Ray's friends also went on about her in a few flashback episodes.

Yes they did; I remember in the flashback where Ray proposes to Debra they all talk about how "hot" she is. In another flashback episode (when Ray delivered Debra a futon) Debra talked about the investment bankers and professional athletes she used to date, implying that's whose league she's in. There was the time in Italy where the men sitting on the Spanish Steps were telling her how beautiful she was. In that one where Ray took over the checkbook, Marie commented "I told you she was too pretty for him." The one with the old men in the lodge make me ill, but probably the worst was "PT&A," when Debra wore the mini skirt and low cut top when Ray lied that the PTA mothers said she dresses "trampy." At the end she threatens to take her top off, and Robert & Frank keep peeking in the front door like a couple of creepers. Maybe Robert talking about how hot Debra is in front of Amy is supposed to be a joke for the audience, but the Robert character certainly isn't joking.

ETA: Thinking about Debra's looks reminded me of the Thanksgiving episode where Marie got glasses. Marie told Debra she has skimpy eyelashes, so Debra wears a lot of black eyeliner & mascara, prompting Ray to call her "the Thanksgiving Day hooker." Truth be told, I thought she looked really good with her eyes made up like that.

Edited August 5, 2015 by ByTor

[VCRTracking]

There was the time in Italy where the men sitting on the Spanish Steps were telling her how beautiful she was.

 

 

Well that's Italy, come on.

[CherryAmes]

Debra has consistently been depicted as an attractive, confident woman, she's intelligent and she comes from a monied and cultured background and when they first met she was working in a pretty cool job.  She was way out of Ray "the futon delivery guy" Barone's league and he knew it. 

 

That she's not movie star "hot" has nothing to do with anything as far as I can see.