S05: Thailand

[Whimsy]

Here is your Survivor S5 topic.

[LadyChatts]

Going through Survivor withdrawals, so decided to go through and do some re-watching.  Starting with Thailand, and I'll see if it is as bad as I remember.  And, if after all these years/seasons, if the final 4 is still the absolute worst ever.  IIRC, wasn't this the season the crew came back depressed because of how it turned out?  I also realized, this is a season I haven't re-watched before, despite thinking otherwise.  Thoughts after watching episode one:

The whole Sook Jai tribe was more obnoxious than I remembered.  Especially Robb (with 2 b's).  I thought after dealing with Bounty, Foley, Colton, Corinne, he might not seem like such a bad guy.  Nope, still a jerk.  I'm surprised Survivor didn't pass on Robb and send him straight to the Big Brother house.  He seemed better suited for that show.  First boot John was also more annoying than I remembered.  Aside from that stupid trick he played on his tribe about where their water source was, I couldn't remember much about him.  Now I see why he got booted first.  

Before the season premiere, I remember people thought the tribes were going to be divided based on age, due to the first episode title and some cryptic clues.  Instead, we got the tribe pick 'em, with the two oldest castaways being the pickers.  On that subject: I loved how Jan picked the "older" crowd, seemingly at random, whereas Jake was picking what should have been a strategically stronger tribe.  On paper, they should have kicked ass.  Of course, we saw how quickly Sook Jai crashed and burned.  Also, Jake could have wound up on the kind of tribe that would have booted his butt to the curb at the first challenge loss, just for being the old guy.  Looking back, Jan probably did have a strategy to her method, even if it didn't come across that way.  People were kind of mean not wanting to be on her tribe.  If they didn't outright get a TH stating it, the looks were enough.  Robb even avoided making eye contact with her, in hopes he wouldn't get picked.  She was better off letting him go to Jake.  Before the tribes were divided, Jeff went around the group and asked everyone to state their name/age/occupation/location, but they could chose to share only what they wanted, if it proved to be a strategic hindrance to their game.  Nowadays, everyone would lie through their teeth about that kind of stuff.

First challenge: even knowing what I know now, I so wish Sook Jai would have lost.  For all the bragging about being the younger, buffer tribe, they were behind in the entire challenge.  Not by much, but had Ghandia not got stumped on that puzzle, they would have been going to tribal.  Chuay Gahn kicked ass.  Especially Jan!  

I guess Brian got a winner's quote episode one?  Some other thoughts: I forgot just how much they focused on the finding food/water/building shelter.  That in itself took a good chunk of the episode.  And, in true old school Survivor fashion, there was arguing over who was doing what.  But no one bothered to make fire?  It wasn't even mentioned.  And unless I missed it, the winning tribe of the IC didn't get flint.  Did that start this season?  Also, after Chuay Gahn lost the IC and went back to game, there was virtually no footage of anyone strategizing.  Just the typical Ghandia needs to go for blowing the challenge, or Tanya because she's sick and may be a liability.  Yet nothing about John being the boot.  I don't remember being shocked by his boot then, and it was obvious on re-watch he was going.  

Edited May 30, 2016 by LadyChatts

[LadyChatts]

So I've made it to the fake merge episode, where Shii Ann jumped the gun by telling her tribe she was deserting them.  Yet even without that betrayal, I think she was gone.  Ken may have been with her, but somehow I think Jake might have ended up siding with the two girls.

Going back over the first half of the season, I'll start with the really, really ugly incident: Ghandia and Ted.  Yikes.  I forgot just how awkward that was.  This was worse than I remembered.  Makes me wonder how TPTB would handle a situation like this nowadays.  This wasn't just bullying like we get now, this was a woman claiming a man was grinding on her and biting her in the middle of the night.  Then we get footage of Ghandia telling Helen and Jan more details than she told Ted of what she remembered happening, and she admitted in TH that she didn't tell them he apologized.  Then there was Helen, saying she believed her story, but that Ghandia may have brought it on herself by how she acted around camp (as she's saying this, we get a shot of Ghandia, blurred out from the waist down).  I think the kicker for me was the episode where she was voted out, where Helen again said she believed her but thought it was better to stick with the boys, game wise.  Sure, she probably was right from a game perspective, but still, that was just awkward to watch.    

As for my overall opinion of the tribes, I'll start with Chuay Gahn: Ted is an ass, Clay is a bigger ass, and it was Brian that came across as charming during the pre-merge phase.  Maybe it really was the outside stuff that made me dislike the guy.  It's interesting to watch a season back and see how the winner's story arc was shaped.  At this point it seems clear that Brian was going to be the winner, as he was really the only one ever seen talking much about strategy.  I dislike Helen more on re-watch for no real reason, and actually found myself rooting for pre-mergers Ghandia and Tanya.  Clay certainly had a high opinion of himself regarding his challenge ability, and so-called contributions to the tribe.  He was weak in challenges, did nothing around camp, and acted like a two year old when his name got written down at TC.  I was sad to see Tanya go, even if she was sick.  Funny that when she was voted out, Jeff didn't have an issue with people writing "Tennessee" on the parchment in place of her name, yet when Clay wrote "Bye bye Denver diva" when booting Ghandia, suddenly Jeff is all "enough with the nicknames".  I guess Jeff was over this group by that point.  Jan is an absolute sweetheart.  A bit of a fruit loop, but I thought she was a stronger and smarter competitor than Clay.  However, given how many times she has already cried, it's clear she was in over her head, game wise.  She was there for the fun and friendship. Her wanting to do a funeral for the baby bat was sweet, but I did get a laugh when Brian said he was more interested in whether they could eat it or not.  Speaking of bats, I don't have a problem with them, but I would have been creeped out sleeping in the cave with all those bats hanging above me.  The biggest excitement at Chuay Gahn?  Helen and Jan first getting hopelessly lost looking for their water source, then the boys losing the boat, and Clay trying to pass the blame and not make it a big deal.

Sook Jai: I have a love/hate relationship with this tribe.  After the first ep where I was Team Chuay Gahn, I found myself rooting for them.  Jed was probably one of the biggest waste of spaces to ever be cast.  And boring.  His final words almost put me to sleep.  One of the most common themes from the early days was certain people thinking they were contributing more to camp, even when they weren't, and claiming their other tribe mates weren't doing anything (despite footage to the contrary).  That was the case with Stephanie and Jed.  I don't know how those two thought they were doing anything to help to their tribe, especially when it came to shelter building.  They barely helped with the fire and food gathering.  And Jed was bold to criticize the shelter his tribe built without him, yet sleep under it to stay dry.  Robb (with 2 b's) was immature, but by the time his boot rolled around, I can't say I disliked him.  He seemed like a young, stupid kid, who had a lot of growing up to do.  I'd almost like to see him return, just to see how different he might be.  Stephanie seemed somewhat more likable by the time her boot rolled around as well.  She was miserable in the beginning, though she was sick (kind of her fault for sleeping out in the rain, rather than in the shelter with her tribe).  But she really seemed to be disconnected from her group.  Too bad she didn't take the offer of jumping over the other tribe when the offer was put out there.  By the time she was voted off, it seemed like she was finally becoming comfortable and feeling better, so I believe she wanted to stay.  Shii-Ann was probably my biggest favorite the first time around, but I've found her to be pretty annoying in re-watching.  She seemed to have a high opinion of herself and her game play.  I'm surprised she survived the vote over Robb Z.  Penny and Erin got more screen time than I remembered (considering I didn't even remember either girl).  I've actually enjoyed their presence.  Ken was a bit more of a vocal hothead than I recalled.  I can't tell if he's just a control freak that gets upset when things don't go his way, or if he was just naturally like that.  Don't have any opinion on Jake, who isn't getting as much screen time as I remembered.  Funniest moment at SJ was Robb getting stung by a sting ray right in front of his tribe mates-and them just carrying on their conversations, without turning around, as he yelled in pain.  Also, everything must have been getting lost in the water, because they also lost their fish net.

Some other thoughts: We had the first ever mutiny this season, though no one took the bait and switched.  We had the first One World experience, with both tribes living on one beach together, despite not merging.  Challenges so far haven't been my favorite, although there have been a few that I liked.  I loved having the Red Berets as a reward.  And it was a nice change having the Survivor auction during the team phase rather than the individual phase.  I also miss them having luxury items.  Seems like it gave them something to do.   And because it can't be said enough, it's so nice having Probst be completely silent during the challenges.

Edited June 29, 2016 by LadyChatts

[azshadowwalker]

I was never a fan of Shii-Ann. Her whole "She-Devil" thing just annoyed me. She was definitely impressed with it (and herself), though.

As for Ghandia, I was always on her side. Lots of dudes "apologize" after they do creepy shit, especially if they get called on it. That doesn't mean they aren't creeps who should be shunned and avoided. Seeing that group stand by Ted still turns my stomach.

Edited July 4, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[LadyChatts]

On 7/3/2016 at 11:51 PM, azshadowwalker said:

I was never a fan of Shii-Ann. Her whole "She-Devil" thing just annoyed me. She was definitely impressed with it (and herself), though.

As for Ghandia, I was always on her side. Lots of dudes "apologize" after they do creepy shit, especially if they get called on it. That doesn't mean they aren't creeps who should be shunned and avoided. Seeing that group stand by Ted still turns my stomach.

As I said, I liked Shii-Ann the first time around, but god she was annoying on re-watch.  I don't know if this group was just that miserable the first time around that it didn't bug me as much, or what.  Considering how safe she played it during AS, it seems like she was full of a lot of hot air during this season.  I doubt she would have managed to break the CG group if there hadn't been a fake merge, or if SJ had won that IC.  So she would have just been an extra vote for them until they didn't need her anymore.  And I seriously don't remember Ted being as arrogant as he's coming across.  The Ghandia issue aside, he's just so obnoxious and unpleasant.  

I've made it to Jake's boot, so all the former Sook Jai members are now jurors.  We had one last boot (Erin) before the tribes officially merged.  Shii Ann made it seem like she was super tight with Jake and Ken, and Ken didn't seem particularly fond of Penny (though we never really saw why).  But Erin went before Penny?  That was never really explained.  Also, it didn't seem like Jake had any issues with Penny.  But again, none of that was ever explained or shown.  Ken had a beef with Penny that went back to her telling Robb he was gunning for him or something.  I don't know if that's it.  I was kind of impressed with Ken's game play.  I'm somewhat disappointed he, Jake, and Penny were never given a second chance to come back.  Given a chance to really play, I'd be curious what they could accomplish.  Thailand was so long ago, and still remains very unpopular, so I doubt we will ever see anyone return from this season again.  Jake was called a snake by CG for trying to stir stuff up and flip people, but really, he was doing exactly what they would have been doing had they been in his shoes.  Also, what is it with this season that people are offended they receive votes at TC?  First Clay, then Ted.  I know this was an early season, but still, getting votes was kind of the idea since season 1, episode 1.  Jake spoke a lot of truth about Clay and Brian.  Especially Clay.  How stupid did Ted and Helen feel when they watched back, and saw everything he was telling them was true?     

 Clay took being juvenile to a new level, when Jake mentioned at TC how he thought he was a threat to be voted off because he was a strong, productive member at camp. He goes off at being annoyed by everyone except his two amigos, Brian and Ted, but he has to be the most annoying one left.  Helen had long been on my wish list to return, but I don't know why after re-watching.  She seems so boring.  And as a Navy swim instructor, I'm surprised she was somewhat weak in the water related challenges.  Jan is an absolute sweetheart, but next to Kathy from S16, I don't remember anyone crying as much as she did.  Most times at absolutely nothing.  I will say, though, for being the second oldest out there, she held her own very well.  I was impressed.  She even took a nasty fall during a RC, but got right back up like it was nothing.  And speaking of crying at stuff, we had two opportunities to see the castaways cry over their loved ones this season.  First was a video tape RC that Brian won.  I guess I would have to actually go on Survivor to see if I would get emotional about missing my loves ones.  I've gone weeks and months without talking to friends/family, but don't have the mushy reunion when we finally do re-connect.  In Helen's video, she cried more over her cat than her husband and daughter.  That would probably bring the tears for me, would be my pets.  

Back to the family video, Brian seemed nervous that his wife was showcasing their home with a grand piano, and 3 luxury cars.  Not like it ended up hurting him in the end.  The second opportunity for everyone to shed tears was the actual loved one visit.  This had an interesting twist, as the loved ones competed in the challenge for a chance to go back to camp for 24 hrs.  And in true Survivor style, they got the honor of having to do the gross food challenge.  If I was Helen's husband, I would have been scared not to win that.  She looked ready to kill him if it seemed like he was struggling.  Brian's wife couldn't even make it two rounds.

Two episodes left plus the reunion show.  I do believe this season is still on track to have the most unlikable final 5 ever.  Wasn't sure if that would have changed after all these years, but they didn't even try to make the CG 5 likable.  If this was the best footage they had, I'd hate to see how bad they really were.

Edited July 13, 2016 by LadyChatts

[azshadowwalker]

It's actually kind of cool that they didn't (or couldn't) try to make the final four likeable. I would rather see an honest portrayal and hate the winner than be led to believe a walking turd is a good person just so I can feel happy when the winner is announced.

[LadyChatts]

On 7/8/2016 at 3:20 PM, azshadowwalker said:

It's actually kind of cool that they didn't (or couldn't) try to make the final four likeable. I would rather see an honest portrayal and hate the winner than be led to believe a walking turd is a good person just so I can feel happy when the winner is announced.

I was trying to think if this was an early season thing when it came to negative edits among finalists/winners.  Richard Hatch wasn't well liked at the time and he won.  And Jenna Morasca was a horrible high school mean girl, yet she won.  I never really thought much about that until your comments, but yeah, it's kind of nice they didn't sugar coat certain situations.  In some cases I just don't think they could (like with Jenna).  In the case of our Thailand final 5, I'm not sure they could have, either. 

So I just watched Ted's boot episode.  One more to go, plus the reunion (the first ever hosted by Probst).  Ted's boot featured the infamous car curse, and he was the victim of it.  That was a fun RC, even though it was just collecting puzzle pieces to spell out a word (the word was Road Trip).  I think what made it fun was people weren't listening to Jeff about where they needed to collect their first puzzle piece (he had to chase a couple of them down and tell them to go back to get it).  But Brian almost won this.  Brian spelled it 'Raod Trip', and when asked by Probst what he was trying to spell, he blurted it out, Ted heard him, and won.  So if Brian won the car, does that mean we would have had a different winner for this godawful season?  Because really, knowing Brian wins is about the only redeeming factor.  Anyway, Ted won, and Clay threw a hissy fit and turned green with envy.  Whenever I think the guy can't get more like a 3 year old.  Especially when Ted decided to take Helen along, since the reward also included a night away from camp, complete with food, a shower, and a massage.  Ted got drunk off his ass, and took booze back to camp after the reward.  I miss when the castaways got drunk.  They loved their wine and beer this season!  And that 5 continue to have a high opinion of themselves, thinking that they are the only reason CG made it intact to this point, and it couldn't have been done without the five of them.  If Helen were on a recent season, I doubt she would get much (if any) airtime because her TH are so boring.  

Helen and Ted were hatching a plan to oust Clay.  God I would have loved to have seen this guy get blindsided.  He treated ever vote and the aftermath like a blindside, even if the blindside was on the people voting.  He's so full of himself and acts like he's running this show, when he's really just doing what Brian says.  But really, the more people campaigned against Clay this season, the more they really made the case that he was the perfect final 2 opponent.  Jan actually made a smart observation to Helen that Brian kept Clay around because you "keep your friends close, your enemies closer".  And before Helen and Ted even went on the reward together (where they furthered their get rid of Clay campaign), they were off by themselves at camp, writing in the sand.  If they thought they weren't being obvious, they were wrong.  Jan was actually pretty smart and strong this season.  I continue to be impressed.  One other thing, too, but Brian flipped the bird to the camera-and it wasn't blurred out.  I watch on CBS All Access, but they censor swear words.  So I would assume they would censor someone giving the middle finger.  How did that slip through?  Was it because it wasn't done maliciously?  When he was giving his play-by-play to the camera about the remaining tribe members and how they were pawns to him, he was counting down on his hand, and was left holding that one finger up. 

Since we had an all CG final 5, I like how Jeff pointed out that the entire jury-the majority of the jury-is made up of former Sook Jai members.  The jurors looked quite smug, and Clay seemed a little rattled when asked by Probst how he would turn around and ask them to vote for him to win.  I do question why Ted voted for Jan, though.  What happened to voting for Clay like he and Helen discussed?  And why didn't Helen try working on Jan to flip and vote Clay off?  

Edited July 13, 2016 by LadyChatts

[LadyChatts]

Just watched the finale/reunion.  Probst's reunion show host debut was interesting.  He's come a long way.  More on that later, but first the finale.

Worst final 4 ever?  Eh.  Clay was an ass, but really, I almost respected the fact that he made no apologies for who he was.  Brian was a more condescending Hatch, as I think I mentioned.  Jan was likable, and Helen was boring until her bitter betty speech.  Jan just didn't do a hell of a lot in the game besides cry, drink, and camp chores.  Would the season have been better had there been a different final 4?  I don't know.  As a whole, this cast was pretty boring.  SJ might have been more of entertaining train wreck had they been in the majority.  Still, it was fun to see Chuay Gahn self destruct at the final 5.  So some highlights (and lowlights) of the finale:

I remember that Jan had been conned into voting Helen off by Brian and Clay, and told "you'll still get third place, that's good."  She took some flack for just settling and not trying to do anything, but really, I think she was getting third no matter what.  Had she forced a tie and Helen survived the vote, I still think she was going to go third.  In terms of picking the right final 2 partner and winner, there was so much emphasis about picking the person who deserved it more (did the most around camp, got to know their fellow castaways, etc).  Just seems so old school compared to today.  That final IC was brutal.  Brian barely looked like he was wavering in it, but Jan and Clay really struggled.  For some reason, I thought the FIC was down in front of the jury.  Must be thinking of a different season.  Brian peaked at the right time.  Clay had such an arrogant bravado for these "blindsides" that he didn't even orchestrate (and old schoolers sure don't do blindsides like new schoolers do), and thinking he was tougher to beat in the final 2 than Jan.  Also those arrogant remarks that made me wonder if he understood how the jury phase works on Survivor, because he made a lot of cocky comments in TH and in front of the jury.  Most notably in his opening statements once he made the final 2, but he did have a point about the other jurors doing what he did and defending it if they were sitting in his place.  You could see Brian space out as Clay began his opening statement, as if he was already counting the million.  

Ted's demeanor seemed to change once Helen was voted out.  I saw it during the TC where Jan was voted out.  Of course they were two of the most bitter jurors this season.  I remember Helen was the Sue Hawk of the Thailand jury, but her vitriol was more directed at Brian than Clay.  I thought it was the other way around.  Not to say she wasn't bitter towards Clay, but those two kind of owned her with their responses to her questions/statements.  I will say, the FTC nowadays, people are looking for airtime.  They are more set on putting on a show and getting that last drop of their 15 minutes before the season ends.  It seemed more straightforward back then.  Ask questions, give statements, one-two bitter jurors, that was it.

Brian won in a 4-3 vote.  I knew Clay got more than one vote, but I forgot it was that close.  Glad Brian pulled it off, because he was deserving of it.  And considering the alternative...During the reunion, Helen said she would have changed her vote after seeing the show and how Brian was.  One of the more ugly/interesting moments was a comment made during the FTC, where Ted accused Clay of making a racist comments behind his back.  Clay denied it, though did say if he did he didn't mean it that way.  He did seem genuinely shocked.  At the reunion, Jeff brought that up, and Ted said he heard it from Helen.  Even though I wouldn't put it past Clay to make a remark and not realize it was offensive, I think it was bullshit in this case.  What I was disappointed about was Jeff didn't straight up ask Helen whether she lying or not.  He danced around, asking Ted if he regretted maybe casting a final million dollar voted based on hearsay.  The way Ted responded, I kind of feel like he knew Helen was lying at that point.  She even seemed miserable at the reunion.  Today, Jeff wouldn't let it drop like that.  And of course, we Ghandia/Ted re-hashed again.  That was more awkward than the footage on the show.  First, Jeff says"how do you explain that to your spouse."  The way he said it, you'd think those two had some scandalous love affair out there and were going to get caught cheating.  Then they showed footage of Ghandia with her hand on Ted's leg, talking about how she was happy to have someone out here in place of her husband (or something to that effect), and doing model poses for Ted while he pretended to take pictures.  It was just awkward all around.  I think Ghandia was over it and just reading from a script at that point, since Ted came out smelling like a rose.  In terms of airtime, Brian didn't get as much as I thought he would.  Really, while more people got talked to then than they do now, there still was a central focus on about a handful.  I also think this reunion show hold the record for the most tears shed.  It was heartbreaking watching Tanya talk about her dad, who passed away just two days before filming ended.  Stephanie's audition tape was shown, and it's too bad we didn't get that girl out there.  She seemed like a lot of fun, but did admit the show really kicked her butt from day 1.

Overalll, still a bad season.  I think Caramoan, WA, RI, and One World are worse, but still a bottom 10.  I actually liked the twists of picking your own tribes, fake merge, and possible mutiny.  It's too bad it didn't turn out differently.  And I know a lot of people here hated the fallen comrades segment and are glad it's done, but I love it.  They did a good job with it this season.  It's better when the castaways don't have to comment, especially since they may not know some of the boots.  Crazy to think that Ted's little baby (who was born days before he left for filming) is a teenager now.  I also got the feels seeing the promo for the Amazon season (still one of the all time best).  I can't believe how much time has passed!

Edited July 13, 2016 by LadyChatts

[Hanahope]

On 7/13/2016 at 1:04 AM, LadyChatts said:

Crazy to think that Ted's little baby (who was born days before he left for filming) is a teenager now.  

Someday, maybe they will have a season filled with children of former players.

[LadyChatts]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

Someday, maybe they will have a season filled with children of former players.

Responding to this under Fix the Show.

Edited July 18, 2016 by LadyChatts

[Lamb18]

I just started watching this season - finished episode 4 last night. So far I like it. Regarding the Ted/Ghandia thing. I do remember reading posts about this. I guess I believed both of them. I believed that it happened - Ghandia didn't make it up - and I believed Ted's explanation and apology. Once Ghandia accepted the apology I feel she shouldn't have talked about it to others, or talked about it just to make Ted look bad. When she was voted out she said that her attempt to cause divisiveness backfired on her. There's one comment she made that led me to believe she suffered similar intentional abuse in the past (I do think Ted's was unintentional) and that in a sense she was punishing Ted for it. That's my opinion so far. I guess I'll have to see how the season continues.

The only person I've heard of from this season is Shi Ann, the She-Devil. She doesn't really seem that devilish. Actually I kind of like her. I think she's about the only one I like on her tribe. Well, I like Jake, too. I liked his pep talk with Shi Ann. I really like Jan, too, as I'm a little older than her. It's nice to see an "older" woman doing as well as she is.

[SVNBob]

31 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

Regarding the Ted/Ghandia thing. I do remember reading posts about this. I guess I believed both of them. I believed that it happened - Ghandia didn't make it up - and I believed Ted's explanation and apology. Once Ghandia accepted the apology I feel she shouldn't have talked about it to others, or talked about it just to make Ted look bad.

Agreed on all counts here.  The incident happened.  They talked it out like adults, and Ted took responsibility for what he had accidentally done.  That should have been the end of it.  Or at least Ghandia should have included the part about the apology when explaining what had happened.  I like to think that if it had happened in the real world, she would have.

However, in the world of Survivor, I get why she didn't.  She was trying to construct a reason to get Ted (a big physical threat) voted off before her and before the merge.  A wise strategic move, but a badly implemented plan on how to do it.

31 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

There's one comment she made that led me to believe she suffered similar intentional abuse in the past (I do think Ted's was unintentional) and that in a sense she was punishing Ted for it.

I hadn't thought of that, but that does make sense.  That also adds another level to her primal scream.

[Lamb18]

I reread your posts, LadyChatts, and now I'm curious to see why this is a bad season. So far I'm feeling neutral on it. No one really stands out as an interesting character - good or bad. I guess Shi Ann intrigues me the most because she called herself the She Devil but I haven't seen anything to back up that nickname. I was thinking of something more like J'Tia or Abi. I like the opening scenes, (those super long fingernails!) and the setting, especially the tribal council set, a miniature temple. The challenges don't seem as challenging, lots of puzzles, but I like them using Thai puzzles and Thai-themed challenges.

The disappearing boat is funny but I think swimming to the water hole would be a big pain! Kudos to Jan for swimming there and back with a water jug!

[ljenkins782]

Quote

 

Agreed on all counts here.  The incident happened.  They talked it out like adults, and Ted took responsibility for what he had accidentally done.  That should have been the end of it.  Or at least Ghandia should have included the part about the apology when explaining what had happened.  I like to think that if it had happened in the real world, she would have.

However, in the world of Survivor, I get why she didn't.  She was trying to construct a reason to get Ted (a big physical threat) voted off before her and before the merge.  A wise strategic move, but a badly implemented plan on how to do it.

 

In the context of the game, I get why she latched onto this as an opportunity for strategy, but in the context of life, the guy had a wife to go home to so it was rather shitty of her to stir the women up with a false narrative. 

Also, she did seem like a drama magnet in general, so I think that's why the whole thing backfired on her. 

Quote

I reread your posts, LadyChatts, and now I'm curious to see why this is a bad season. So far I'm feeling neutral on it. No one really stands out as an interesting character - good or bad. I guess Shi Ann intrigues me the most because she called herself the She Devil but I haven't seen anything to back up that nickname. I was thinking of something more like J'Tia or Abi.

Shii Ann fancies herself a big personality, but she's definitely not. The only reason she's really remembered is because of her spectacularly huge mistake at what she thought was the merge. 

Overall, this season didn't have a lot of big personalities and I think the eventual F2 and winner is part of the reason people didn't like it. Also, the end of the game is rather frustrating to watch, there were opportunities to change the outcome but nobody could work together enough to get it done. 

[Lamb18]

In one of the current season's threads someone said there was speculation during the Thailand season that Erin was transgender. And I'm trying to figure out why anyone thought that. When I watch the next episode I'll have to look more closely. One thing I liked was the fake merge. Everyone thought they were a big happy family, and nope!! You're still two tribes even though you're sharing the same location.

Another thing I like about this season is how the challenges are Thai-related. I also like tribal council being on its own island (or pier - hard to tell because it's usually dark).

[Oholibamah]

On April 19, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Lamb18 said:

In one of the current season's threads someone said there was speculation during the Thailand season that Erin was transgender. And I'm trying to figure out why anyone thought that. When I watch the next episode I'll have to look more closely. One thing I liked was the fake merge. Everyone thought they were a big happy family, and nope!! You're still two tribes even though you're sharing the same location.

Another thing I like about this season is how the challenges are Thai-related. I also like tribal council being on its own island (or pier - hard to tell because it's usually dark).

I recall that conversation re: Erin happening on boards when it aired, but my older self still doesn't really see it. Their logic was fake breasts + broad shoulders + husky voice. All of which I've seen thousands of cis-females have, so not very convincing. 

Oddly, Erin was my 14-year-old self's favorite when Thailand first aired. On rewatch she wasn't edited heavily enough to remain a favorite, but I thought she seemed sweet, and reminded me of the character Maria from Roswell that I also loved at the time. 

[LadyChatts]

I loved Erin, too.  I forgot about the comments made about her being trans, but I think that was just people being mean.  I remembered her having a near invisible edit this season, so while boring, she still seemed like one of the brighter spots with this crew and dreary back drop.  I was surprised by some of the people, like Penny and Ken, that actually seemed to play a pretty decent game and have a better edit than I remembered.  It's too bad they wound up with this crowd, and in such an unlikable season that TPTB never wanted to bring anyone else back from it.  At least beyond AS, I never remember hearing anyone from Thailand being on the radar, except Shii Ann turning down an invite for HvsV.

Quote

Another thing I like about this season is how the challenges are Thai-related. I also like tribal council being on its own island (or pier - hard to tell because it's usually dark).

Even though the challenges are simple by today's standards (and I still think the challenges today are pretty tame), I loved how they would incorporate the country or theme into the overall season-tribes, challenges, TC, even camp life.  For an early Survivor season, this was probably one of my favorites for challenges, and I loved the TC set. 

[enlightenedbum]

One of them was totally unwinnable for the tribe that went second if I remember right.  At least if the first tribe was smart, which they were not.

[SVNBob]

7 hours ago, enlightenedbum said:

One of them was totally unwinnable for the tribe that went second if I remember right.  At least if the first tribe was smart, which they were not.

The 21 challenge.  Yeah, that's an unfair game if you know what you're doing. 

It also depends on the victory condition they were using, which I don't remember off hand.  Was it the last to take a flag wins or last to take loses?  In either case, it's possible to play the game "perfectly" to win.

[Lamb18]

Clay masterminded that challenge for his tribe.

[Lamb18]

I was liking this season just fine until the last two episodes. I liked Brian just fine until then, I was soured on him and the season when he felt betrayed by people who went outside the plan he determined for them. In his mind, people were supposed to be satisfied with being fourth out, third out, second, etc and anyone who deviated was a traitor. Shame on Helen for writing in the sand with Ted! I ended up liking Helen quite a bit.

It was a close vote between Brian and Clay, but Brian won because he contributed more at camp than Clay, who I guess sat around and bossed others around.

[SVNBob]

9 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

It was a close vote between Brian and Clay, but Brian won because he contributed more at camp than Clay, who I guess sat around and bossed others around.

Yeah.  Brian was really the innovator of the "Goat-herder" strategy of actively keeping the biggest goat (or goats) around to sit next to you at FTC.

[303420]

There's a discussion in "fix the show" re: F2 vs. F3. Here's the question: if it's an F3, does Jan win Thailand?

If the players know there's an F3, does the boot order change? Brian has the last three immunities. Does he successfully engineer the ousters of Jan and Helen, in that order, to be with Ted and Clay in the F3? Does he still win the rest of the immunity challenges?

The whole game is different if F3 is a possibility.

ETA: IIRC, when Robb gets bitten by the stingray, he hilariously falls vertically into the surf. I would love a gif of that.

Edited April 29, 2017 by 303420

[LadyChatts]

If they had done a final 3, the jury would have had to start with Shii Ann.  Otherwise it would have been Erin/Ken/Penny/Jake/Ted/Helen jury, and I doubt they would have gone with a 6 person jury.  In addition, Jan was a Brian vote.  If she was off the jury and Shii Ann was on, whose to say Clay wouldn't have wound up winning?  I don't know if Jan would have won.  She definitely wouldn't have gotten votes from Ted or Helen.  I don't know about the remaining Sook Jai people.  Penny said she voted for Clay because he took the time to get to know her.  I don't know if Ken would have voted for Jan.  He might have gone for someone more strategic.  So no, I don't know or think Jan would have won.  As nice as she was, and as much as people liked her, I don't think she would have had the respect as a gamer with that jury.  Brian told her flat out she was playing for 3rd sticking with them.  One vote for Brian that went to Jan or having Shii Ann on the jury voting for Clay could have meant that he ended up winning.  If anything, a final 3 seems like it would have benefited Clay more than anyone.  

Edited April 30, 2017 by LadyChatts

[fishcakes]

Quote

ETA: IIRC, when Robb gets bitten by the stingray, he hilariously falls vertically into the surf. I would love a gif of that.

Edited April 30, 2017 by fishcakes
imgur was being uncooperative

[LadyChatts]

What I love most about that scene is Erin, Penny, and Jake ignoring him.  I believe Jake even said that they were use to Robb acting like that so they assumed nothing was wrong.

[Daisy]

On 4/30/2017 at 1:24 AM, LadyChatts said:

What I love most about that scene is Erin, Penny, and Jake ignoring him.  I believe Jake even said that they were use to Robb acting like that so they assumed nothing was wrong.

That one slayed me. like. no reaction, Jake's all "Meh. Whatever." 
This was my third ever survivor. (Africa being the first) I always enjoyed this season for what it was, even though out of the first 10 it was low. I always feel that Borneo needs a little asterisk by it because I think it was always going to be slow - and for most of that cast they were just happy to be on a camping show and Rich was like "watch me put on a show."

and I think for me - that's what Thailand was for me. It was my Borneo. There were a little bit more strategic players - the "Sue" is Helen, there's really no Kelly, there's no Sean (thank God), and Rudy is replaced by this little smackable old man who is an ass - but I also didn't "mind" Clay at times. I also didn't mind Brian. I was rooting for him and Helen if I remember. It was only until reading that Brian refused to go on All Stars unless he got paid a mint (to which Burnett said hah, no), and then the puppy thing- it got really ugly. and then during rewatches you sort of see how brian went from. this okay guy to this really ice-cold guy who had zero idea who the other people were (He couldn't even remember Shii Ann's name) didn't know much about people (Penny's question was a flop to him).

What makes it so interesting to me here is that Rich stepped off knowing he couldn't win his final tribal because if he did he had to take Rudy, Rudy wins. if Rudy won, Rudy takes rich, Rudy wins, but if Kelly wins Kelly takes Rich and Rich has a chance. 

Brian always had the option. and he takes the goat (which he wanted to do)... but the goat almost wins. and I've said this so much.. If Clay wins instead of Brian does this pretty much kill the goat strategy. I mean let's look at it. 

Borneo - there's no real Goat after they boot off Sean. No one was gonna vote for Sean. 
Australia - everyone hated Keith (I still don't get why). no one was going to vote Keith. 
Africa - there was no goat... other than the one Lex and Ethan bought (teehee).   
Marqueas - You could argue if there was a goat or not but I feel everyone had a chance to win. (one could argue the two goats flipped on Kathy - who I think wins) - and that's assuming you think Vee + Neleh were goats and I don't. 

Here, Clay is the goat, he's designated as the goat, Ted/Helen see him as a goat and I really think they'd each take him to the end... The only one who doesn't think he's a goat is Clay... and the 3 people who voted for him. 

And since then, minus a few seasons, everyone wants to tote around that guy who can be an easy vote off, and lately for a while now -esp with final 3 it makes it easier because your twosome is safe you've got an extra vote, and chances one in your pair really didn't do much either so you win in a landslide how easy is that. 

but say had Helen voted Clay... 
Does Matt make it to final 2? maybe not because Rob/Jenn think "gee but what if he wins like Clay?"
I don't think we see an actual goat play until... wow. Fiji? 

Pearl Islands, Lil is the goat but she shouldn't have even been there but she actually won FIC. 
All Stars - No goats. 
Vanuatu - no goats. 
Palau - you could argue Katie. actually. okay. five seasons  without goats, then  you have Katie. (but it shouldn't have been Katie thanks a lot Ian). 
Exile Island - no goats. 
Cook Islands - No goats (Unless you see Becky as a goat)

and then Dreamz + Cassandra 100 percent goats. 

it doesn't impact Palau at all nor Fiji. It would be these later seasons.  so who knows, and the funny thing is....does anyone watch season five and go "beware bringing the goat?" because SuperFans didn't start showing up until like mid 20s and recently an onslaught. very admitted fans of the show minus your Rob C etc. 

interesting. 
 

[Nalan]

You missed Guatemala, @Daisy.  Goats in that season?

[Daisy]

On 6/5/2017 at 6:31 PM, Nalan said:

You missed Guatemala, @Daisy.  Goats in that season?

how did i miss this Tag. 
I think Viewer Wise - we'd all agree Lydia.  But they sniped her. 
You could ultimately argue that Stephanie was the goat as well. so if we buy that - then yes. Goat :D 

But, I do think Steph was playing well enough to win until she really started shooting herself in the foot. (or i could totally be underestimating the fact that they were never going to have a previously played person win this game). 

[Corporal Agarn]

Just finished rewatching this season. I liked Brian when I watched and never got the hate. Now I’m learning for the first time ever about the puppy incident uugghhh what a despicable person.

[30 Helens]

I’ve been watching some old seasons lately and decided to give this one a try. I think I probably saw it once, long ago, but had no recollection of it. And even though I was aware of the season’s sub par reputation and Brian’s problematic <ahem> post-show history, I thought, how bad could it be?

Well, PRETTY DAMN BAD. This is the most unlikeable group of people I could ever imagine invading my TV set. And the longer they were there, the more unlikeable they got. Never before have I more wanted to see  “none of the above” as a viable jury vote.

Let’s start with Ghandia v. Ted. There’s no question an assault happened. He admitted to it, although he waffled a bit about how aware he was in the moment. But he apologized, so let’s everyone blame Ghandia for the unpleasantness. Including Helen, who was aware that Ghandia was a rape survivor and had actually worked as a crisis counselor, so you might expect her to have a bit of empathy?? And how about the editors, who did their best to showcase the ways in which Ghandia was asking for it, and Jeff, who had the gall to ask at the reunion how they “explained it to their spouses”. Ghandia had nothing to “explain”, jackass.  I know this was nearly 20 years ago, but damn. The way this was handled was really shocking to me—and yet somehow, not shocking at all. 

Clay was boorish, backwards-thinking, selfish, and proud of it. Jan was just ridiculous. Brian came off as a real sociopath. He freely admitted in confessionals that he gave zero craps about any of these people and saw them as nothing more than pawns on a chessboard. He smiled while explaining his perceived friendliness was a total act of manipulation, knowing that the others would see it later and be hurt. He clearly felt superior to everyone else there, and wanted to make sure we shared that opinion. I’m not surprised he killed a puppy. I’m only surprised we never heard about more.

Even ShiAnn was a bit too self-satisfied. I wonder why everyone was happy to see her again on All Stars. 

In the end, I found no redeeming value in this season and wish I hadn’t wasted my time. 

 

 

 

[SVNBob]

2 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Even ShiAnn was a bit too self-satisfied. I wonder why everyone was happy to see her again on All Stars. 

Popular opinion was that she was twist-fucked by the fake merge and thus the most deserving of a second chance of either of her casts.  Even people who disliked her the first time agreed with that.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, SVNBob said:

11 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Even ShiAnn was a bit too self-satisfied. I wonder why everyone was happy to see her again on All Stars. 

Popular opinion was that she was twist-fucked by the fake merge and thus the most deserving of a second chance of either of her casts.  Even people who disliked her the first time agreed with that.

It also seemed like, for that first All-Stars, they wanted to have at least one person from every season, and Shii Ann's fake merge moment was the only really memorable moment from that season that didn't involve unwanted inter-personal contact of one sort or another.

[LadyChatts]

15 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

I’ve been watching some old seasons lately and decided to give this one a try. I think I probably saw it once, long ago, but had no recollection of it. And even though I was aware of the season’s sub par reputation and Brian’s problematic <ahem> post-show history, I thought, how bad could it be?

Well, PRETTY DAMN BAD. This is the most unlikeable group of people I could ever imagine invading my TV set. And the longer they were there, the more unlikeable they got. Never before have I more wanted to see  “none of the above” as a viable jury vote.

Let’s start with Ghandia v. Ted. There’s no question an assault happened. He admitted to it, although he waffled a bit about how aware he was in the moment. But he apologized, so let’s everyone blame Ghandia for the unpleasantness. Including Helen, who was aware that Ghandia was a rape survivor and had actually worked as a crisis counselor, so you might expect her to have a bit of empathy?? And how about the editors, who did their best to showcase the ways in which Ghandia was asking for it, and Jeff, who had the gall to ask at the reunion how they “explained it to their spouses”. Ghandia had nothing to “explain”, jackass.  I know this was nearly 20 years ago, but damn. The way this was handled was really shocking to me—and yet somehow, not shocking at all. 

Clay was boorish, backwards-thinking, selfish, and proud of it. Jan was just ridiculous. Brian came off as a real sociopath. He freely admitted in confessionals that he gave zero craps about any of these people and saw them as nothing more than pawns on a chessboard. He smiled while explaining his perceived friendliness was a total act of manipulation, knowing that the others would see it later and be hurt. He clearly felt superior to everyone else there, and wanted to make sure we shared that opinion. I’m not surprised he killed a puppy. I’m only surprised we never heard about more.

Even ShiAnn was a bit too self-satisfied. I wonder why everyone was happy to see her again on All Stars. 

In the end, I found no redeeming value in this season and wish I hadn’t wasted my time. 

 

 

 

When I watched Thailand again a long time ago, I also had a similar line of thinking-after all this time, all these other terrible seasons later, surely Thailand couldn't be that bad.  Yet, somehow, it was worse than I remembered.

I agree about the Ghandia/Ted incident being one of the most shocking, mishandled, poorly edited situations ever, for all the reasons you said.  And by poorly edited, I mean Ted going from being apologetic, to saying she wished someone like him would grind on her.  And the bro-down where the guys worried this could hurt Ted's reputation back home.  I don't know who I was more disgusted with when it was all said and done.  Helen saying she wanted to believe Ghandia and support her, but couldn't for alliance purposes, was also pretty bad.  Lucky for this crew this was in the era before social media.  

In terms of game play, I can't really fault Brian for acting that way.  He really had this handed to him on a silver platter, with such poor game play by pretty much everyone involved, including the self destructing Sook Jai tribe.  I don't know that I've ever seen a cast so miserable before.  As much as I hate admitting it, he did deserve the win.  Although since Helen seemed determined to stir stuff up to make Clay lose, I kind of wish he had won just to spite her.  And while both tribes just seemed to sit around their camps, Chuay Ghan was like watching paint dry while Sook Jai just whined.  I actually liked Shii Ann for the simple fact that she was there to play the game and get stuff going.  

Edited November 29, 2020 by LadyChatts