S04.E04: All My Exes Live In Essex

[Clanstarling]

I saw this as an irritating conundrum for Joan. If she goes through channels and complains or back channels through Gregson or Bell or any of her friends on the force, she risks this irritation becoming vendetta. Chances are that any of the above options would have resulted in less than a stern talking to unless Joan could get IA or another group with oversight involved. I have a feeling Cortez would have accepted a < STT like twelve year olds accept an 8 o'clock bedtime. 

 

Getting IA or oversight involved would have set her back- with everyone, not just Cortez- into the personae non grata zone she's already worked her way out of. It wouldn't develop rapport she and Sherlock desperately need to do their job. I can't see either of these options getting Joan the results she was looking for- Cortez ceasing and desisting.

 

I dunno. To me, this was a damned if you do, damned if you don't for Joan. :( I don't think Cortez's school yard bully is going to be deterred by a couple of rounds though she might think twice before physical intimidation. Her threats were specific and her harassment focused. If Cortez has buddies, they'll be seeking ways to intimidate Holmes and Watson too.

I didn't get the feeling that Cortez's vendetta actually has anything to do with Joan "not belonging." It seemed way too heated and personal - especially since she was asking, specifically, if Joan was known to have committed any crimes. I don't have an encyclopedic memory - but I kind of think this ties into some case where Joan was involved and may have brought down a fellow cop, or other close associate of Cortez. (was the bit with the Captain's daughter with Kitty or Joan, I forget)

*posted before I read johntfs' post.

Edited December 1, 2015 by clanstarling

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Big Love(s), American-Style
Sherlock and Joan get involved in some complicated living arrangements on this week's Elementary.

[MaryHedwig]

In some ways it reminds me of the situation where Gregson punched the cop who'd hit his daughter.  To make things right, Gregson had to offer a handshake in front of cops just like he'd hit the guy in front of cops.

Along this line of thinking, can someone please explain why Gregson punched Sherlock in the stomach?  Is it significant that he punched Sherlock in a police bar?  I always just thought that Gregson had lost it, but maybe there was a cold calculation to that act.

[frenchtoast]

I thought he punched Sherlock in the stomach because he was angry with Sherlock for behaving above the law and torturing Moran. He felt betrayed by Sherlock and was angry with himself that he still wanted to work with Sherlock and it all came out in that punch. 

 

It is entirely possible I read waaay too much into that scene.

[jhlipton]

I also liked the inclusion of group marriage/atypical families in the plot as incidental and without being preachy about it. The show has a decent track record with societal fringes and outliers. 

 

Same here.  Sherlock hires prostitutes to sleep with and to pose for crime scenes, and no one raises even a sniff, much less insults the women.

 

hey're not Mormons. That isn't the the way poly relationships work, as a rule. You've done so well with gay and transgender people, show - why'd ya have to go and fuck it up with polyamorous folk? 

 

He didn't say either arrangement was like the Mormons, he was giving examples of poly societies.  In fact, the first group was polyandrous and the second was mixed (4 women and 2 men).  I got to meet quite a few poly people in Los Angeles, and more than few shared a house.  I kind of liked that Biodad (didn't he look a bit like Wilson the Oncologist from House?) and Brandon were lovers first before DeadWife came into the picture.

[basil]

Abby, Biodad and Bradford were all smart people living in a polygamous situation and Abby was dying from cancer already.  Figure it's extremely likely that they had set up a situation to ensure that the kid remained with Biodad and Bradford.  It's possible that Denise might well have pointed Abby to a friendly judge and didn't mention it in the interview because it really wasn't relevant.

 

 

Denise was such an incredible bitch it's almost impossible she could ever do any decent thing. I was actually surprised at how awful a person she was. Also worth mentioning, I noticed during a rewatch that in the interview with Branford and Biodad, they mentioned that Branford had to be on the downlow because they were afraid social services would take away the child.

 

They're not Mormons. That isn't the the way poly relationships work, as a rule. You've done so well with gay and transgender people, show - why'd ya have to go and fuck it up with polyamorous folk?

 

 

He didn't say either arrangement was like the Mormons, he was giving examples of poly societies.  In fact, the first group was polyandrous and the second was mixed (4 women and 2 men).  I got to meet quite a few poly people in Los Angeles, and more than few shared a house.

 

 

I wasn't saying Sherlock was comparing them to Mormons (he has repeatedly shown himself to be very open-minded regarding various lifestyles), it's that the show seemed to be, in as far as everyone lives under the same roof (and not even Mormons always do that). My evidence, like yours, is anecdotal (though, without details, I think it's likely that mine has a far more personal perspective than yours). In my experience, polyamorous arrangements with more than three people rarely share a house, and pooling all the money isn't common, either (in fact, that's just begging for discord).

 

Also, just because six people are involved in a polyamorous relationship doesn't mean that all six are intimately involved with each other (not that that was explicitly stated). They just seemed...messy, and not really happy. Even polyamorous people need their private spaces.

 

I kind of liked that Biodad (didn't he look a bit like Wilson the Oncologist from House?) and Brandon were lovers first before DeadWife came into the picture

 

.

 

Yeah....about that - if Biodad and Bradford were together first, why weren't they married, since Abby was the addition? This is New York City. Gay men (or bisexual men who choose to marry a gay or bisexual male partner) announce their nuptials in the NY Times every week. They adopt and raise kids, nobody raises an eyebrow. I don't get all the tsuris.

 

I thought he punched Sherlock in the stomach because he was angry with Sherlock for behaving above the law and torturing Moran. He felt betrayed by Sherlock and was angry with himself that he still wanted to work with Sherlock and it all came out in that punch.

It is entirely possible I read waaay too much into that scene.

 

 

No, I think you're spot on - and that blow was coldly calculated. Gregson knew when he was meeting Sherlock that he was going to read him the riot act, and then he was going to gut punch him (no marks, no permanent damage). He knew Sherlock would perceive it as a just punishment (so he was safe from being reported for assault), and he knew he was safe doing it in a police bar, because they would all feel Sherlock had it coming, and would have supported Gregson if Sherlock had complained (which, again, Gregson knew Sherlock wouldn't do). Gregson got it (mostly) out of his system, no permanent damage done, no pesky bystanders to interfere.

 

In fact, I have to think that was what was going through Sherlock's mind when he suggested Joan engage Cortez in fisticuffs. I don't recall Holmes ever telling Watson about Gregson punching him. Anyone?

[kitmerlot1213]

I am loving how this season is all about the closeness of the Watson/Sherlock friendship.  She's always been able to express how much she likes and cares about him and it seems this season, Sherlock is able to reciprocate more--in his Sherlockian way :)

 

And I applaud that this show is having a police woman being villainous because her behavior is exactly why so many people have become distrustful towards the cops.  She's using her resources ( the police department) and power of her badge to try and intimidate and bully someone she doesn't like.  I could never picture Gregson or Bell doing this and Cortez needs to be called out on it.

[jhlipton]

I wasn't saying Sherlock was comparing them to Mormons (he has repeatedly shown himself to be very open-minded regarding various lifestyles), it's that the show seemed to be, in as far as everyone lives under the same roof (and not even Mormons always do that). My evidence, like yours, is anecdotal (though, without details, I think it's likely that mine has a far more personal perspective than yours). In my experience, polyamorous arrangements with more than three people rarely share a house, and pooling all the money isn't common, either (in fact, that's just begging for discord).

 

Also, just because six people are involved in a polyamorous relationship doesn't mean that all six are intimately involved with each other (not that that was explicitly stated). They just seemed...messy, and not really happy. Even polyamorous people need their private spaces.

 

.

 

Yeah....about that - if Biodad and Bradford were together first, why weren't they married, since Abby was the addition? This is New York City. Gay men (or bisexual men who choose to marry a gay or bisexual male partner) announce their nuptials in the NY Times every week. They adopt and raise kids, nobody raises an eyebrow. I don't get all the tsuris.

The threesome seemed more "natural" and realistic than the six-some. I didn't get any kind of feel as to who loved whom in the latter or why any of them were together (in one house or many).

As for Biodad and Branford, there could have been any number of reasons they weren't married, before or after meeting Abbie. Just for starters, either might be out to family...

[basil]

The threesome seemed more "natural" and realistic than the six-some. I didn't get any kind of feel as to who loved whom in the latter or why any of them were together (in one house or many).

 

 

That's because threesomes are much more likely. The six-some seemed like kind of a clusterfuck of swinging couples. It can get complicated (and if I'm not mistaken, those were the first words we heard from Branford "It's complicated", like he was reading his FB status, which made me laugh).

 

When more than three people get involved, you usually have something like a couple who has invited a third person into their relationship. They may or may not live together, and the third person is likely to have another partner outside of the threesome, who is otherwise unconnected to it (though, if everyone is honest, as they should be, is aware of it).

 

The six-some isn't really a thing that happens much. That's practically a commune.

 

As for Biodad and Branford, there could have been any number of reasons they weren't married, before or after meeting Abbie. Just for starters, either might be out to family...

 

 

I assume you mean they might not be out to family, which, sure, is possible - but for well-heeled professionals, at their age, in New York City? That seems very unlikely to me.

[theatremouse]

Did they say how long any of the relationships were? Or just that he and Branford came first? Easily could've been all three together and married dead-wife before could've been possible to marry Branford in NY. Or Branford wasn't into marriage and the other two were and all were cool with that.

Edited December 5, 2015 by theatremouse

[basil]

Did they say how long any of the relationships were? Or just that he and Branford came first? Easily could've been all three together and married dead-wife before could've been possible to marry Branford in NY. Or Branford wasn't into marriage and the other two were and all were cool with that.

 

 

I'm not quite sure I followed all of that, but they didn't specify the duration any of the relationships, only that Branford and biodad were a couple first.  You know, now that I think of it, we keep using the term "biodad", but I don't think that was ever verified that the child was biologically his. The child could have been adopted, an implanted fertilized egg, a product of the six-some or even Branford's, for all we know. We only know the child is two years of age.

 

Anyway, it doesn't sound like Abby had left the six-some all that long ago (years, yes, but doesn't sound like many). Same sex marriage has been legal in nyc since 2011. As to Branford being opposed to marriage, we know he was not, since Sherlock comments on the two men's "matching wedding rings" (which, if you think about it, was pretty stupid if they were worried about their relationship would be discovered. They worked in the same hospital, had matching wedding rings. Didn't anyone wonder who Branford was married to?)

 

On a completely different note, I loved Sherlock realizing that the skeleton was the missing woman's, and his addressing it: "Hello, Abby Campbell". A strangely touching moment.

Edited December 5, 2015 by basil

[jhlipton]

That's because threesomes are much more likely. The six-some seemed like kind of a clusterfuck of swinging couples. It can get complicated (and if I'm not mistaken, those were the first words we heard from Branford "It's complicated", like he was reading his FB status, which made me laugh).

 

When more than three people get involved, you usually have something like a couple who has invited a third person into their relationship. They may or may not live together, and the third person is likely to have another partner outside of the threesome, who is otherwise unconnected to it (though, if everyone is honest, as they should be, is aware of it).

 

The six-some isn't really a thing that happens much. That's practically a commune.

Moving this to Small Talk

 

As for either men being "out", even well-heeled professionals can have very conservative families.  (Although having matching rings doesn't really fir with that.)  One of my well-heeled professional friends is trans and was disowned by her parents until fairly recently.

[Ceindreadh]

I'm not quite sure I followed all of that, but they didn't specify the duration any of the relationships, only that Branford and biodad were a couple first.  You know, now that I think of it, we keep using the term "biodad", but I don't think that was ever verified that the child was biologically his. The child could have been adopted, an implanted fertilized egg, a product of the six-some or even Branford's, for all we know. We only know the child is two years of age.

 

 

When they were interviewing Nate, at one point I'm sure he said that Abby would never have left 'her' child.  I would have expected him to say she'd have never left 'our' child - since at that point we only knew that he and Abby were a couple and didn't know about Branford. 

So maybe Nate wasn't the biodad either. 

[johntfs]

When they were interviewing Nate, at one point I'm sure he said that Abby would never have left 'her' child.  I would have expected him to say she'd have never left 'our' child - since at that point we only knew that he and Abby were a couple and didn't know about Branford. 

So maybe Nate wasn't the biodad either. 

 

It was the administrator who said that.  Nate wasn't interviewed until after her skeleton had been found and idenitified.  As I recall, Nate and Abby met five years previous and married three years previous.

[basil]

As for either men being "out", even well-heeled professionals can have very conservative families.  (Although having matching rings doesn't really fir with that.)  One of my well-heeled professional friends is trans and was disowned by her parents until fairly recently.

 

 

I hear that, but I don't follow why well-off men would give a fuck about what their families thought about them, and instead chose to lie - or why they would be worried about social services taking the child away unless there was a very good reason to think the child was being abused. With money does come privilege, and unless they needed money from their families, I don't understand the reason to lie (I don't understand the reason to lie, anyway, but I get why some feel they need to in order to survive).

 

The closet, in my experience, is deadly. Truth is always best.

Edited December 16, 2015 by basil

[possibilities]

They gave the conservatism of their workplace as the reason they wanted to avoid controversy, but the same argument about them being able to get jobs elsewhere could be applied. I'm rabidly anti-closet, so I don't know why they'd choose that over a less uptight and discriminatory workplace, but who knows? People make all kinds of choices I would never make, so I basically handwaved it as plot-convenient.

[johntfs]

They gave the conservatism of their workplace as the reason they wanted to avoid controversy, but the same argument about them being able to get jobs elsewhere could be applied. I'm rabidly anti-closet, so I don't know why they'd choose that over a less uptight and discriminatory workplace, but who knows? People make all kinds of choices I would never make, so I basically handwaved it as plot-convenient.

 

They're doctors, which is something of an inherently conservative profession, at least in terms of public perception.  Sort of "Do you really want to think about the guy putting his hands on (or in) you as being a person involved in some weird sexcapade?"  It isn't fair or enlightened but I can see it being a problem for them.

[jhlipton]

I hear that, but I don't follow why well-off men would give a fuck about what their families thought about them

 

Family, especially parents, don't fade into the wood-work just because you have money.  If I hit the lottery tomorrow, I'd still want my mom's respect.

 

I'm glad the closet is fading (sorry, Jay Pritchett!) and more families are accepting, but can still be hard for those whose families don't.

[basil]

They're doctors, which is something of an inherently conservative profession, at least in terms of public perception.  Sort of "Do you really want to think about the guy putting his hands on (or in) you as being a person involved in some weird sexcapade?"  It isn't fair or enlightened but I can see it being a problem for them.

 

 

 

Good Lord! Do people really still think that way? I suppose they do, but this show is set in NYC, which is arguably one of the more enlightened cities, and the writers have gone out of their way to represent it as such. It just struck me as an anomaly within the Elementary universe. It's so far from my line of thinking and my circle of friends and colleagues in NYC. 

 

 I'm rabidly anti-closet, so I don't know why they'd choose that over a less uptight and discriminatory workplace, but who knows? People make all kinds of choices I would never make, so I basically handwaved it as plot-convenient.

 

 

 

I am the same, so I guess I'll have to join you in your handwaving it as a plot-convenience. ;)

 

Family, especially parents, don't fade into the wood-work just because you have money.  If I hit the lottery tomorrow, I'd still want my mom's respect.

 

 

 

If a mother's respect is based on lying to her about who you really are, can it truly be respect? (I am not speaking of you, personally, of course, just hypothetically). Families do tend to eventually come around, but if they don't know the truth, you're not even giving them the chance. I know they don't always, but it is hard for me to understand how adult men and women who are  gay, bi, or trans can live a lie to their families - for the rest of their lives. I would prefer to be honest and give them the opportunity to work it out, and yes, risk being disowned or estranged - but, as possibilities said, people make all kinds of choices I would never make, and visa-versa.

 

 

One of my well-heeled professional friends is trans and was disowned by her parents until fairly recently.

 

 

 

 

 

If I read this correctly, your friend's family did come around eventually. I'm sure that was a hard and painful process, but I like to think they are better for it. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by basil

[jhlipton]

If I read this correctly, your friend's family did come around eventually. I'm sure that was a hard and painful process, but I like to think they are better for it. 

 

I'm not 100% sure that they have -- she doesn't talk much about them, and I never see them with her, her wife or her son.

[basil]

One of my well-heeled professional friends is trans and was disowned by her parents until fairly recently.

 

 

The bolded part was what had me confused. That implies to me that her family had disowned her, but fairly recently, changed their minds. I hope you can understand my confusion. I hope your friend works things out.

 

On a lighter note, I loved this title, a play on the song "All My Exes Live in Texas".

[jhlipton]

The bolded part was what had me confused. That implies to me that her family had disowned her, but fairly recently, changed their minds. I hope you can understand my confusion. I hope your friend works things out.

 

I'll reply by PM.