The Bullpen

[Knittzu]

I think it was Winston Churchill who said "Political Correctness is tyranny with manners."

 

 

It's really not. There's nothing tyrannical about asking people to be polite. Maybe it FEELS that way to people who have always enjoyed the privilege of saying whatever the hell they like without the slightest consequence but it's an absurd comparison. 

 

I do think it is stupid when they want to take a word and speak about it without saying it-- like saying "The R Word". It only gives that word more power. Plus then people get bent out of shape when it is used as one of its literal definitions (hindered or slowed). The ironic thing is, r******* was actually coined because it was deemed less offensive than idiot, imbecile, and moron.

 

 

 

The origin of the word does not matter. Words evolve and change and as of now, that word is horribly offensive. Asking people not to use it does not "give it more power" -- the word is already loaded with power and very hurtful. When people like me ask others not to use it, I'm saying that when you use it, it hurts me and please stop. At the very least, people who insist on using such an ugly word should be made aware of how it makes others feel. If that makes the word-user uncomfortable... oh well. My brother did not choose to be developmentally disabled. But the rest of society can choose not to say ugly, offensive things that make his life -- and others like him -- even more difficult. 

 

And I disagree that changing the way we use words can't change attitudes, but that's another discussion and I should probably just drop this whole subject because it's very upsetting to me.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Knittzu

[normasm]

We Americans are a sensitive, and let's face it, a litigious bunch, and in a world where a fast food joint can be sued because someone burned themselves with their coffee and have to pay out two hundred grand, there has perhaps been an over-correction somewhere. Teachers should not be allowed to use such language in the classroom, obviously, but unless you specifically order an iced coffee, its going to be hot. Hell, they even put a damn caution warning on the cup.

 

Just to this point, CoStar, I have to stop you and correct this misapprehension a lot of people have about that case. They even made a documentary about her case and one other that are always trotted out to bolster "tort reform," which is code for taking all power away from consumers and giving them to the corporations.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Coffee_(film) is a place to start.

[Knittzu]

Trust me, there was NOTHING frivolous about the case of that woman who was scalded by the super-heated coffee. The documentary is streaming on Netflix, but I honestly couldn't make it past the photos of her burns.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Knittzu

[normasm]

Knittzu, I'm glad you're saying your piece. I've always basically agreed with your opinion, but you've pointed out a few things to me that i might not have considered, particularly that the origin of the word doesn't really matter. You got me to think about it, and you're right.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Just to this point, CoStar, I have to stop you and correct this misapprehension a lot of people have about that case. They even made a documentary about her case and one other that are always trotted out to bolster "tort reform," which is code for taking all power away from consumers and giving them to the corporations.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Coffee_(film) is a place to start.

 

I clicked the link, normasm, and I stand corrected. Blame the fact that I see a lot of those ambulance chaser ads here, those and the commercials where they talk about massive settlements for people who have been hurt because they used certain medication. I had never heard of transvaginal mesh until they started talking about how you could sue if something happened to you because of it.

[normasm]

CoStar, I do know that there are frivolous lawsuits, but I really feel they are far outweighed by real suits brought to address consumer protection (and employee protection, now that I think about it). I see those dumb "strong arm" commercials, too, but what they and others are protecting (or should be) is citizen's right to sue when products, services or the workplace are not made safe as humanly possible, etc. The transvaginal mesh issue is also real, and there are many medications that are ridiculously harmful. It's one of those things where we citizens can't allow laws to sweep away our rights in the name of tort reform, we have to be able to bring suit (and demand regulation legislation) when companies and corporations and hospitals act in irresponsible ways or make harmful products. A lawsuit that is truly frivolous should be dismissed by a judge.

Edited November 5, 2014 by normasm

[dusang]

CoStar, I do know that there are frivolous lawsuits, but I really feel they are far outweighed by real suits brought to address consumer protection (and employee protection, now that I think about it). I see those dumb "strong arm" commercials, too, but what they and others are protecting (or should be) is citizen's right to sue when products, services or the workplace are not made safe as humanly possible, etc. The transvaginal mesh issue is also real, and there are many medications that are ridiculously harmful. It's one of those things where we citizens can't allow laws to sweep away our rights in the name of tort reform, we have to be able to bring suit (and demand regulation legislation) when companies and corporations and hospitals act in irresponsible ways or make harmful products. A lawsuit that is truly frivolous should be dismissed by a judge.

 

This whole discussion made me think of The Poisoner's Handbook and the Radium Girls and generally the world prior to regulation.  I feel like people really don't know why these laws were enacted and, therefore, don't appreciate them for the incredibly useful and important tools they are.

 

Also, that book is super enjoyable.

[zannej]

The story of the teacher acting like that is sad, but it does not surprise me. There really are teachers who have no business being around other human beings, much less children. Funny that Sears was mentioned. The disappearance of Adam Walsh (the one responsible for Code Adam when a child disappears in a store) happened in a Sears. Many people know that the kid disappeared and his decapitated body was later found. The parents had taken him to Sears and there was a new video game display. They told him he could stay and play while they went about their shopping. What they didn't find out until years later was that some other kids came up and argued over who's turn it was to play and a security guard kicked the 10-year-old boy out of the store (well, she told him to leave) without looking for the parents or telling him to go find his parents. The kid obeyed and that's when he was kidnapped. The guy who claimed to have killed him, said he saw him standing outside the store all alone and drove up to talk to him.

 

I can't imagine how angry the parents were when they found that out. I wasn't involved and it made me angry. That kid might still be alive today if not for that stupid security guard. Sears is lucky they didn't get sued for that.

 

Speaking of the parents, I was hoping to see more of a reaction from the red-haired kid's parents. Like to see them being upset that the cops didn't look for their son sooner or have them express feeling guilty that they thought he'd just runaway or something that gave them more personality. As it was, they were just there. and I think they could have cut some of the unsub sitting in the car drinking and listening to awful music to have something more with the parents.

Edited November 7, 2014 by zannej

[SSAHotchner]

The Angel Maker was a woman targeting women. Just wanted to throw that in there for what it's worth.

[Danielg342]

The Angel Maker was a woman targeting women. Just wanted to throw that in there for what it's worth.

She still killed a male, and was essentially doing something at the behest of a male. It's not like having a woman make a decision entirely independent of male influence to murder other women.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Danielg342

[alexvillage]

Didn't know where to put this

Emily corrected Hotch about where she had gone to college on her first episode. Georgetown? No, Yale, actually

 

Old episode yesterday (vampire one) she mentions her first Georgetown apartment when she was in college

[idiotwaltz]

Hotch thought she'd gone to Brown; Emily corrected him and said it was Yale.

 

In The Performer, what she actually says is that the UNSUB's apartment was like "the first apartment [she] had in Georgetown." It was most likely a flub in continuity by the writers, but then again, I've seen some fanfic writers fanwank it by having Emily go to grad school at Georgetown so that an undergrad degree at Yale still fits into canon. 

 

Considering the majorly implausible retcon they pulled for the Doyle arc, I'm willing to let this slip by. 

Edited November 8, 2014 by idiotwaltz

[JMO]

Georgetown is an historic neighborhood in DC.  Georgetown University is located there, but it's very possible to live 'in' Georgetown without attending the university.

[alexvillage]

I am assuming that since they were talking about college students, it was implied that Emily was talking about her college years, and her mother was sending her money.

Thanks idiotwaltz for correcting me.

 

I stand by my nitpick that this was another writer blunder

[idiotwaltz]

 

I stand by my nitpick that this was another writer blunder

 

It's always been pretty obvious to me that the writers from Season 5 or so onwards have never watched the earlier seasons, given how many times they've flopped with continuity. Don't these people have a writing bible of some sort? 

 

 

Georgetown is an historic neighborhood in DC.  Georgetown University is located there, but it's very possible to live 'in' Georgetown without attending the university.

 

Emily did say that her mother wanted her to stay on campus, but she was determined to make it on her own, so she waitressed (poorly) on weekends to swing it. Presumably she was attending Georgetown, though who the eff knows with these writers. 

 

When I went to DC this summer, I made my friend walk through Georgetown with me. She's only seen one episode of CM ever (Hopeless, which she calls the one where they get Dupont Circle all wrong) but she was very excited for me when I explained that in the cold open of Demonology, aka my favorite episode ever, we get to see a random door that is purported to be in Georgetown! (RIP Matthew Benton)  

 

It's great to have friends who understand your unhealthy obsession with fictional characters in a show about serial killers. 

[ForeverAlone]

It's really not just the season 5 writers and beyond that have screwed up continuity (though they do it more egregiously in my opinion). If we laid out all the "facts" of Hotch's life listed in the show (from the beginning), it would be very obvious that not only could Hotch not do all the stuff the writers had him doing, but there were blatant continuity errors about stuff as basic as his age. It's never really added up when it comes to Hotch.

[alexvillage]

 

Don't these people have a writing bible of some sort?

I am really demanding with writing. I can go to a certain point where I can suspend disbelief but I admit it is not very high. It has to do with this is the writers job. I assume their day job. That's what they do.

I have friends who are activists and blog. They are serious about informing people about their causes and they are dedicated. They don't get paid, they have their day jobs and they do research things, and they remember what they said before. Couldn't the writers go back to the scripts and double check their stories?

I wonder if the actors notice these details. I used to be in the artistic circle, a life away ago, and I could remember my interpretations. Not acting, but still.

And that's why when there is a strike to raise writers salaries I do not support them (not that they need me ;) )

[Old Dog]

Didn't Erica Messer once say they didn't need a bible to ensure continuity as she had been there from the start and knew everything??? I hate they way they get some half brained idea and then brutally retcon it into existence - like in The Black Queen. Shameful. They should be banned from retconning.

[spinner33]

The current writers are too busy patting themselves on the back and high-fiving each other on social media about how AWESOME they think they are.  Their mutual admiration society is like a multi-partner folie a deux.  They don’t have time to pay attention to silly restrictions like established character backstory, or proper legal procedure.  >=\   

Edited November 8, 2014 by spinner33

[zannej]

Yeah, the current writers seem to think its ok to have completely ludicrous crap, not follow legal procedure, etc all so they can have the THE COOLEST UNSUBS EVER!1!!1 (ok, making fun of Janine Barrois' allcaps rant in one of the chats). I think some of the writing crew are obsessed with LEOs who break the rules and don't do things by the book and think that the ones who do follow the rules are boring. Once Ed left and they came in to power, the show lost a lot of credibility.

[normasm]

I think the writers just don't know how to do any other stories. It seems most of the personal stories involve either the children or love interests. They can't give them other personal stuff most of the time. And then once they do give them love interests, they don't know what to do with them.

 

I bet by the end of the series, everyone will have a significant other except Reid.

zannej, I hijacked this from the Hashtag thread cause i'm not talking about that in this post.

 

Yeah, I agree, i think the writers definitely breathed a sigh of relief when Bellamy whatshername became unavailable, because they didn't have to write her, and they didn't have to write Hotch-and-her. Rossi will do the matchmaker thing for him.

 

I figure, if SM stays true to his pledge of leaving at the end of 10, Morgan and Savannah will go off into the sunset together, probably pregnant.

 

JJ has Will and Henry, Kate has "Chris" (sort of holding out hope that Chris is a woman) and Megan (?). They are hinting that Rossi has some kind of encounter and flashback with regard to his ex-wife #2, and they have hinted at some sort of "revelation." With the way this crew thinks, I'll go ahead and guess he has a daughter or son with #2 that she didn't tell him about.

 

That leaves Reid, and nothing, no talk of anything, no hints, no ideas, not even a blush of personal growth or reaching for happiness for Reid.

 

TPTB have given up trying and are simply using that purty face to keep us coming back week after week, but they're not going to find him a girlfriend, they're not going to let him adopt a kid, nothing. They suck.

 

I hope they pay him well.

[Danielg342]

I have my own issues with Edward Allen Bernero (it was under his watch the series started showing the UnSub early and began representing its victims as nothing more than rag dolls), but at least Bernero knew how to write compelling stories and understood what "subtlety" meant. Earlier on, he was still concerned about law enforcement officers following the rules; later on he started to be a bit lax about it though the characters didn't go too overboard about it.

Erica Messer seems to be the real culprit- once you got "It Takes A Village" you knew things were going to get ugly. It took her a while to gain her footing and implement her plan but it seems like we're in full swing. It's quite apparent- as had been said many times before- that she has no clue what she's doing and has all the subtlety of a chainsaw. Not to mention she had made this show very politically charged, and I hate it because the show was never like this.

I bring up the political point again because a few days ago I saw Scandal for the first time and I was very impressed. Here's a show that, like Messer seems to want to do with CM, is unabashedly feminist- in fact, the lead character, Olivia Pope, describes herself as one. However, the men on the show are still allowed to be strong, effective characters (even sympathetic), it doesn't devolve into the radical "everything a man wants or is happens to be bad" and although feminist ideals still win out in the end, they're portrayed realistically, with challenges being faced and without every ideal being "right". Furthermore, Pope herself has quite a few flaws- on the outside, she's a strong, confident woman but you take a deeper look and you realize it's a shield for her many insecurities.

It's developed so well and I love it; CM could learn a lot from this.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

That leaves Reid, and nothing, no talk of anything, no hints, no ideas, not even a blush of personal growth or reaching for happiness for Reid.

 

TPTB have given up trying and are simply using that purty face to keep us coming back week after week, but they're not going to find him a girlfriend, they're not going to let him adopt a kid, nothing. They suck.

 

I hope they pay him well.

 

normasm, you're making me sad, especially because its probably true. These writers don't care about Reid, and they haven't for a while now. They're either too busy creating more and more ridiculous UnSubs or slobbering over JJ or both, and what's worse is that they're perfectly happy to trot him out now and then to keep his fans hanging on. It's the worst kind of pandering, because they don't actually intend to let the character get anything out of it. It does make me work harder on my version of events so that Spencer can get the attention he deserves, but I shouldn't have to do it. When an unpaid writer cares more about him than the professionals do, there's a damn flaw in the slaw.

 

I bring up the political point again because a few days ago I saw Scandal for the first time and I was very impressed. Here's a show that, like Messer seems to want to do with CM, is unabashedly feminist- in fact, the lead character, Olivia Pope, describes herself as one. However, the men on the show are still allowed to be strong, effective characters (even sympathetic), it doesn't devolve into the radical "everything a man wants or is happens to be bad" and although feminist ideals still win out in the end, they're portrayed realistically, with challenges being faced and without every ideal being "right". Furthermore, Pope herself has quite a few flaws- on the outside, she's a strong, confident woman but you take a deeper look and you realize it's a shield for her many insecurities.

 

I don't watch Scandal because I can't with Kerry Washington, but I know people who do watch and they say that Olivia is a very well-defined character.  I have been enjoying Viola Davis in How To Get Away With Murder, which is probably a less realistic show, but Davis is such a powerhouse that I can handwave most of that. I said this in another post, but I think it is possible to make characters of both genders complex and flawed without it being non-feminist. There's got to be some kind of happy medium between the criminally underused/underdeveloped Alex and Steroid!JJ.

[normasm]

More to your and my point, there's gotta be some good writing for Reid.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Yes. That is a moral imperative.

[zannej]

Yes. That is a moral imperative.

Now I'm thinking of the movie "Real Genius". I loved that movie.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Now I'm thinking of the movie "Real Genius". I loved that movie.

 

[OT]"Kent? This is God....."[/OT]

 

Without trying to either stir the shit or foster conspiracy theories, I'm wondering when Reid fell out of favor with the writers. CM has always been, shall we say, easy-handed with the characterization of the main cast, even in the early days, but lately it seems particularly egregious in Reid's case, especially since on top of that he seems to get the least screen time. I've said before that I don't really pay attention to who writes what episode, and I don't think it has to necessarily be some kind of deliberate plot to sideline either the character or Gubler as an actor, bit I do wonder sometimes if something is up.

[normasm]

CoStar, i'm thinking the writers pretty much have to have the balance they are told to have. I think it's the show runner who dictates to the writers, but she may have some pressure on her from above. I doubt any of the numbers guys in charge would have a problem with MGG, but what do I know? It's been 10 years and they haven't even really pushed the show, much less the stars of it.

You would think they would advertise the hell out of it, and really push their most popular stars/costars, but we never see much of anything. They did some promotion around 200, but it was on the lesser-watched network daytime shows.

I tend to put more blame on Messer, because i can't think that anyone else would be more in charge and hands-on than she. By the same token, I can't imagine why she would 1. not like MGG, or 2. hate the Reid character. ???

Edited November 10, 2014 by normasm

[Knittzu]

Without trying to either stir the shit or foster conspiracy theories, I'm wondering when Reid fell out of favor with the writers.

 

 

I don't think it requires any sort of elaborate conspiracy theory to say that there is obviously stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. In a production as huge as CM, there's no way that isn't all sorts of drama going on in the background, things we will never hear about. That's been the case at every organization I've ever worked at, even the smallest non-profit. I can't imagine that a huge television show filled with ambitious people would be any different.

 

I'd say the most likely explanation is also the simplest -- the showrunner, who doesn't especially like or understand the Reid character, nonetheless understands that his fans aren't going anywhere. No matter how little of him she includes in the show, MGG's fans will turn in week after week, always hopeful for more but settling for what we're given. Meanwhile there are probably pressures on her to promote a "strong female character," to amp up Garcia for the tweens who love her, to show off Morgan's abs, create bizarre unsubs, etc.

 

Besides, how could anyone not like MGG? If anything, my guess is that he's too accommodating and doesn't push for screen time as some of the other actors have clearly done.

[Danielg342]

I don't know about not liking Reid- there's nothing about the character that would make him "hateable". I think it would have more to do with not understanding what to do with him. At least in the earlier seasons you had the storyline of Reid trying to learn how to be a profiler and how to be the best FBI agent he could be. Seeing him grow in confidence was a nice storyline and gave him the chance to have some real character development- but now that he's "completed" his growth as an agent I can see how the writers have hit a roadblock and have no idea where to go next.

Most of the issues with Reid stem from the fact that CM has just never been great at characterization at all. Hotch had his storyline- lawman who loses his family because he's too busy with work- and when that was done, Hotch hasn't had any growth as a character at all. Gideon and Elle had no character development until it was time to boot both from the show. Rossi's only storylines seem to deal with unresolved cases and his old Vietnam sargeant. Morgan has gained a few traits and had an appreciable role as Reid's "big brother" but largely they use him just to speak the lines and do the actions other characters can't seem to fill. Prentiss' characterization was haphazard at best and nonexistent at worst. Blake received nothing substantive to speak of. JJ went from being an eternal cipher to being the one character who seems to have all the important scenes, all while having little appreciable growth or storylines as a character. Garcia hasn't had much character growth to speak of- most of her definition comes from the actress herself. Then, finally, there's Callahan, who might still have time for some development but so far, I don't have my hopes up (that, and I believe Jennifer Love Hewitt might be exerting influence on the stories herself, but I've been over this before).

So when I think of Reid, I think of it as an extension of what's plagued the writers since, really, Season 4, combined with the terms of AJ Cook's return in Season 7. Cook's kind of upstaged everyone at this stage of CM's life, and I think this has something to do with the writers mistaking the backlash over the firing of Cook and Paget Brewster as the fans thinking they want Cook to take over the show. We all know the writers are lazy, and being unable to balance each character and give them appreciable storylines is extension of that.

[missmycat]

Didn't Erica Messer once say they didn't need a bible to ensure continuity as she had been there from the start and knew everything??? I hate they way they get some half brained idea and then brutally retcon it into existence - like in The Black Queen. Shameful. They should be banned from retconning.

Erica Messer and Rick Dunkle "laughingly" referred to themselves onetime as a couple of walking bibles when asked during a joint chat if the show had any sort of bible.

[normasm]

Well, perhaps "hate" was too strong an expression * Inartful Expressions by Normasm™ *, but I do believe EM and others hate to write expressly for Reid. I think they don't understand him (SLW comes closest to being empathic), so they either shove him into the background or make him do stupid stuff to show how quirky he is. 

[zannej]

I think part of the problem with the writers and Reid is that in order to have any semblance of realism, the character needs to mature and change. The writers on Stargate: SG1 had a similar problem with Daniel Jackson. He started out as this excited, wide-eyed genius who was compassionate and always wanting to be gentle and kind to the cultures they encountered. Over time, they realized that his dealings would make him more jaded and that as his experience grew, his sense of awe at everything would diminish (at least that's what they seemed to think would happen). They liked him in his sort of baby-face state, but couldn't figure out how to deal with his growth as a character so they started wallflowering him. Only the actor fought back. He begged for them to give him *something* and they flat out told him that his story had played out and there was nothing more to do with his character. He gave an ultimatum to either come up with something or he'd walk. They told him not to let the door hit him on his ass on the way out and then tried to replace him with a new alien character who was a supergenius in to science and had the fresh eyes-- unfortunately, the actor didn't get along with anyone on the cast except the one who played Daniel and the fans had a vitriolic reaction so they found a way to bring back Daniel a season later. He was still intelligent and interested in things, but he was much more jaded.

 

I see something similar happening with Reid. The character can't stagnate. He can't stay the same wide-eyed, slack-jawed kid he was in the beginning. He has to grow and learn how to deal with things differently and become more confident. And maybe the writers don't know how to write him like that. OR, maybe its the trap that I often see when they have genius characters but writers who are not geniuses and they can't put themselves in his mind. Since they can't see things that way, they can't problem solve or figure things out the way a genius would so they can't show him figuring things out-- and to make it tougher, they can't come up with plots that would have a genius character stumped. One thing I noticed is that writers will do stories that a genius character could figure out in 5 minutes and then they would have no episode, so they can't use the ones that will solve things too quickly. Mind you, other shows have figured out how to do this-- but they have higher caliber writers. I don't think the writers on CM are dumb, but they don't strike me as the brightest bulbs (except maybe Sharon Watson).

 

TL:DR I think its hard for them to write Reid bc someone of his intelligence would solve the case too quickly and easily and they can't figure out how to write the story credibly enough to have him actually be stumped so they dumb him down.

 

To be fair, I think they have dumbed all of the characters down (except Garcia-- who seems to have gotten an intellect boost but lost points in stamina and maturity level). She needs to ask the game-masters to let her re-roll her stats. :P

[normasm]

Zannej, yes, they dumb him down so he won't solve everything immediately - they also blame his being unable to solve everything on his "genius" or his Aspergers (this week) or his being brought up in Vegas, or some other lame excuse.

And Garcia, they don't dumb her down intellectually, just emotionally. They make her seem like a child who needs her "boo" to constantly be by her side or it "interferes with her ability to work."

[Knittzu]

He can't stay the same wide-eyed, slack-jawed kid he was in the beginning.

 

 

I never saw him as wide-eyed or slack-jawed. When we first met him (admittedly, this was almost a decade for most of you but a mere few month back for me!) he had already been part of the BAU for several years. He was struggling with things like "thinking outside of the box" and nightmares and such, but I never thought he was looking at crime scenes or anything else with wide-eyed wonder.

 

If they can continue to come up with storylines for JJ, they could do the same for Reid. Of course at this point I'm not convinced they can come up with good storylines for any of their characters. Morgan's having time-management problems with his ladyfriend (again), JJ is rehashing her sister's death, Garcia is fourteen, rehash and remix. If this is the best they can do I'd rather they cut the personal stories altogether and maybe focus on writing some good cases solved by solid profiling... but as that seems entirely unlikely...

 

Why not give Reid something else in his life? It doesn't have to be a cheesy romance; the writers have already demonstrated that romantic relationships really aren't their strength. How about a friend, then? I'd love to see Reid develop a friendship outside the BAU, someone on his level that he can have some enjoyable times with. Or Reid deciding to start working on his post-FBI career. He's still very young, and I can't buy that working for the BAU is the end-all be-all for him.

 

If it were -- god, what a tragedy. So much potential wasted on a job that could be handled by JJ, Morgan, and Garcia's computer alone.

[Danielg342]

I see something similar happening with Reid. The character can't stagnate. He can't stay the same wide-eyed, slack-jawed kid he was in the beginning. He has to grow and learn how to deal with things differently and become more confident. And maybe the writers don't know how to write him like that. OR, maybe its the trap that I often see when they have genius characters but writers who are not geniuses and they can't put themselves in his mind. Since they can't see things that way, they can't problem solve or figure things out the way a genius would so they can't show him figuring things out-- and to make it tougher, they can't come up with plots that would have a genius character stumped. One thing I noticed is that writers will do stories that a genius character could figure out in 5 minutes and then they would have no episode, so they can't use the ones that will solve things too quickly. Mind you, other shows have figured out how to do this-- but they have higher caliber writers. I don't think the writers on CM are dumb, but they don't strike me as the brightest bulbs (except maybe Sharon Watson).

What they could have done with Reid is make him someone who second guesses himself constantly. A guy with his intellect would be able to come up with many different answers and scenarios that could tackle the problem, and he could be indecisive over which one is best. I know there's the whole "I think best under extreme terror" but that can be argued as a "survival instinct"- if Reid's not in imminent danger, he'll overthink everything.

He could have also been made "brilliant, but lazy". Everything, by now, should come so easy to him- why would he feel the need to work as hard as his mates? They don't have to make him this arrogant guy who flaunts how easy things are to him, but they could mix a few short instances where we see him do something like playing every iteration of chess because he's finished whatever task Hotch asked him to do. We could even get agents wanting to be paired with him because he makes things so easy; then finally we could have Hotch wonder just how to maximise Reid's potential.

*shrugs* Just a few random thoughts.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

TL:DR I think its hard for them to write Reid bc someone of his intelligence would solve the case too quickly and easily and they can't figure out how to write the story credibly enough to have him actually be stumped so they dumb him down.

 

To be fair, I think they have dumbed all of the characters down (except Garcia-- who seems to have gotten an intellect boost but lost points in stamina and maturity level). She needs to ask the game-masters to let her re-roll her stats. :P

 

Everyone has made some very good points, but this in particular I wanted to examine in a minute.

 

After the third or fourth season of BTVS (yes, that again) Joss Whedon took Nicholas Brendon aside and told him that he was pretty much done with Xander as a character, that he was going to start focusing on Buffy and Willow a lot more. Or something to that effect. That he could stay and remain in the background, or that he could go and take his chances elsewhere, but that either way Xander was never going to actually be a main character again. Some people, myself included, believe it was because of the internet basically exploding with outrage due to The Lie, that the screams of protest from shippers rattled Whedon and the writers, and so they sidelined Xander as a result. Brendon chose to remain until the show ended, and I've never heard any complaints from him about being treated badly. Perhaps he, like Gubler, was too easy-going.

 

I do think they have dumbed Reid down, and at the risk of harping they seemed to have passed a fair share of his intelligence to JJ. Which was not the solution. The writers not being smart enough to come up with ideas that would stump a genius means they need to either sharpen their skills or be handed their walking papers. The easy fix would have been to get better writers, not to warp Reid's character for whatever purpose, whether it was to make JJ look better or otherwise. Maybe I'm just removed enough from the situation, and I'm not saying I could personally do a better job working within the time constraints television calls for. As a medium, TV only allows for so much time for some things, and I don't think it's necessary to narrate every move. What I do think is that someone who is likely getting a good bit of change as a professional writer needs to be able to handle another writer's creation with respect.

[SSAHotchner]

The current writers are too busy patting themselves on the back and high-fiving each other on social media about how AWESOME they think they are.  Their mutual admiration society is like a multi-partner folie a deux.  They don’t have time to pay attention to silly restrictions like established character backstory, or proper legal procedure.  >=\   

Yes!  But I would think the actors would remember facts about their own characters. I really hated what they did in The Brothers Hotchner having Hotch say he was away at boarding school? When? In the first season we were told that he met Haley in high school. When was he in boarding school? And they said that he was wild as a kid but you get the impression that Hotch was always straight as an arrow in terms of following the rules, obeying the law, etc. Don't even get me started on the nonsense that was The Black Queen.

Now I'm thinking of the movie "Real Genius". I loved that movie.

Me too!

I think part of the problem with the writers and Reid is that in order to have any semblance of realism, the character needs to mature and change. The writers on Stargate: SG1 had a similar problem with Daniel Jackson. He started out as this excited, wide-eyed genius who was compassionate and always wanting to be gentle and kind to the cultures they encountered. Over time, they realized that his dealings would make him more jaded and that as his experience grew, his sense of awe at everything would diminish (at least that's what they seemed to think would happen). They liked him in his sort of baby-face state, but couldn't figure out how to deal with his growth as a character so they started wallflowering him. Only the actor fought back. He begged for them to give him *something* and they flat out told him that his story had played out and there was nothing more to do with his character. He gave an ultimatum to either come up with something or he'd walk. They told him not to let the door hit him on his ass on the way out and then tried to replace him with a new alien character who was a supergenius in to science and had the fresh eyes-- unfortunately, the actor didn't get along with anyone on the cast except the one who played Daniel and the fans had a vitriolic reaction so they found a way to bring back Daniel a season later. He was still intelligent and interested in things, but he was much more jaded.

 

I see something similar happening with Reid. The character can't stagnate. He can't stay the same wide-eyed, slack-jawed kid he was in the beginning. He has to grow and learn how to deal with things differently and become more confident. And maybe the writers don't know how to write him like that. OR, maybe its the trap that I often see when they have genius characters but writers who are not geniuses and they can't put themselves in his mind. Since they can't see things that way, they can't problem solve or figure things out the way a genius would so they can't show him figuring things out-- and to make it tougher, they can't come up with plots that would have a genius character stumped. One thing I noticed is that writers will do stories that a genius character could figure out in 5 minutes and then they would have no episode, so they can't use the ones that will solve things too quickly. Mind you, other shows have figured out how to do this-- but they have higher caliber writers. I don't think the writers on CM are dumb, but they don't strike me as the brightest bulbs (except maybe Sharon Watson).

 

TL:DR I think its hard for them to write Reid bc someone of his intelligence would solve the case too quickly and easily and they can't figure out how to write the story credibly enough to have him actually be stumped so they dumb him down.

 

To be fair, I think they have dumbed all of the characters down (except Garcia-- who seems to have gotten an intellect boost but lost points in stamina and maturity level). She needs to ask the game-masters to let her re-roll her stats. :P

Garcia is positively infantile.

[zannej]

I'm too lazy to multiquote so I'm going to respond to a few things:

Re: wide-eyed and slack-jawed-- If you look at screencaps from earlier seasons, Matthew held his eyes open wider and often had his mouth hanging open a little bit. He was wearing contact lenses back then and I think he gave that up so he squints a lot more and he doesn't hang his mouth open quite as much. So it wasn't that he was in awe or wonder-- it really was how his face looked at times. LOL.

 

Reid initially did second guess himself quite a bit. I think that would get old though. I think he has grown and has more confidence, but the writers still want to write him like an insecure little boy. They made him even less mature than he was in earlier seasons.

 

I do think that Matthew has either grown complacent with the lack of use for him or is just not pushy enough to fight for anything because he has a job and he might feel that its not his place to bug the writers. In his unauthorized docs he made fun of actors who think they can write and who tell the writers what to do.

 

I do agree that some of Reid's intelligence and perception has been passed to JJ in an attempt to show her as tehBestProfilerMotherBadassBarbieEVER...

 

I will say that actors have to memorize their lines and play so many roles at other times, that they don't always remember details about their own characters. Some very dedicated actors actually do memorize stuff like that, but a lot of them don't. I talked to someone who used to be a script coordinator on some popular TV shows and she said it is the responsibility of the script coordinators and writers to keep tabs on that stuff.

 

Now, when it comes to the writer's intellect, I can't blame them for not being geniuses. Its something they can't help-- however, they need to hire someone who *is* a genius to think of things. What I think they really need to do is have a group of people sitting around-- including Jim Clemente-- and just describe the crime that happened and the details that the team would find out about the injuries or whatever to the victim. Then they would have Jim ask the pertinent questions that a profiler would ask and then have him come up with some sort of profile of what person would fit that crime. They could have it so that the writers have to figure it out the way the team would. That way we might get fewer illogical leaps that depend on inside knowledge that didn't make it to screen. I think they need a few outside people to look in and say "Hey, a real person wouldn't do this". 

 

And yeah, Garcia is about as whiney and clingy as a 5-year-old at times.

[alexvillage]

I am not as invested in Reid and most of you guys are but the writing of the character did worsen and lot.

Part of it is that writers don't really know how to write a neurodivergent character (whether is a disability or genius, the brains do process things differently)

 

I love Reid when he is all nerdy and explaining topics nobody else seems interested on. The writers could have used that as his mechanism to profile. But all we get is eye rolling.

What really gets to me though is how all the other characters treat him like a child. From Morgan calling him "kid" even after ten years, to Hotch scolding him, not as he would do with another one of the characters, to all of them "worrying" about him in a way that is condescending.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

CoStar I agree with this for the most part. However, I will say that CM's official social media does seem to do a lot of gushing over Garcia and Morgan. With Morgan it's usually more superfluous having to do with his looks: I guess I can kind of understand this though. sarcasm on Because after all, as far as the men on that show, he is really the only eye candy CM has. sarcasm off 

 

And then there is Garcia. She is the one who is more or less promoted as the show's genius not Reid.Ever time she opens her stupid mouth and brags that she too is a genius the CM people feel compelled to highlight it on their social media pages. They currently have this one post about how the things Garcia says are just so gosh darn awesome they need to be written down. *feeling the need to hurl*

 

Meanwhile, For Reid we get stuff about his hair. But I honestly don't remember the last time his genius was promoted by CM's social media. And I don't ever remember them mentioning his other amazing abilities like his eidetic memory or his ability to read 20,000 words per minute. 

 

I've said this in another thread, but I don't really pay attention to social media. I look in at Twitter now and then, but I don't post there. I don't even look at Tumblr unless someone sends me a link to a picture. Maybe it's a fine line to draw, but I don't consider the stuff there to be actually "official" because it isn't put out there by the network. Also, on those sites it's kind of a lot of people yelling at one another, trying to see who can yell the loudest before their remarks get lost in the invisible hurricane and swept aside.

 

On the network website, though, IMO those things are supposed to be taken more seriously. Comments about how cool Garcia's glasses are or how "cute" the Morgan/Garcia banter is just make me roll my eyes because they're so puerile. But I'm pretty sure the recent bullet-pointed list about JJ was meant in all seriousness, trying to sell people like me on how great she is. It's kind of an acknowledgement, that they might actually know that they've annoyed and alienated a lot of viewers by pimping her so hard, but at the same time they're still kinda-sorta doing it. That's my take on it, anyway.

[missmycat]

 

I've said this in another thread, but I don't really pay attention to social media. I look in at Twitter now and then, but I don't post there. I don't even look at Tumblr unless someone sends me a link to a picture. Maybe it's a fine line to draw, but I don't consider the stuff there to be actually "official" because it isn't put out there by the network. Also, on those sites it's kind of a lot of people yelling at one another, trying to see who can yell the loudest before their remarks get lost in the invisible hurricane and swept aside.

 

On the network website, though, IMO those things are supposed to be taken more seriously. Comments about how cool Garcia's glasses are or how "cute" the Morgan/Garcia banter is just make me roll my eyes because they're so puerile. But I'm pretty sure the recent bullet-pointed list about JJ was meant in all seriousness, trying to sell people like me on how great she is. It's kind of an acknowledgement, that they might actually know that they've annoyed and alienated a lot of viewers by pimping her so hard, but at the same time they're still kinda-sorta doing it. That's my take on it, anyway.

Oh I think you are very point on about the purpose of this ridiculous JJ propaganda. That seems to be the consensus all across the board from people critical of it. How CBS ever thought that this would help win over the JJ critics is just mind boggling.But then again this network did sign off on that ridiculous story line for JJ in '200' probably also thinking it would help win over a lot of her critics.

 

I'd forgotten that you mention that you don't delve much into social media. But the social media I am talking about is CM's official twitter and Facebook accounts as oppose to some random fans'. However,as irritated as I get with the Morgan and Garcia gushing that sometimes goes on over at CM's official social media, I do agree with you that it is more or less just for fun

Edited November 16, 2014 by missmycat

[Danielg342]

Thinking about the latest episode, I think I'd like, just for once, a case where the UnSub is known to the BAU right from the start and the team has to figure out how to build a case against him. It could be someone prominent, like a Senator, a Mayor or a beloved celebrity, with the BAU facing fierce opposition to bringing the UnSub in, with the victims all being unwilling to come forward out of the fear the UnSub put (and continued to put) on them.

It'd be something different, plus it would add a storytelling dimension the show has never seen. Far too often the BAU does what it does without question and much opposition from the outside (“Fear and Loathing” being a lone exception), and we all know cases don't always happen like this in real life, and it's a dynamic the show hasn't ever really explored. I think it's time they did.

[SSAHotchner]

Thinking about the latest episode, I think I'd like, just for once, a case where the UnSub is known to the BAU right from the start and the team has to figure out how to build a case against him. It could be someone prominent, like a Senator, a Mayor or a beloved celebrity, with the BAU facing fierce opposition to bringing the UnSub in, with the victims all being unwilling to come forward out of the fear the UnSub put (and continued to put) on them.

It'd be something different, plus it would add a storytelling dimension the show has never seen. Far too often the BAU does what it does without question and much opposition from the outside (“Fear and Loathing” being a lone exception), and we all know cases don't always happen like this in real life, and it's a dynamic the show hasn't ever really explored. I think it's time they did.

This makes me think of Columbo. He always knew who his murderer was upon first meeting and then he slowly reeled him in.

[alexvillage]

I watched Lauren the other day and have been wanting to post this.

I am calling bullshit on Hotch's little talk with Clyde. He says something like "It takes a sociopath's skills to betray his team". Later when Clyde confronts him, he says Clyde is not the sociopath (he was talking about) but Doyle was. He also says Clyde is not a good profiler.

Well, Clyde is not a profiler at all (unless I missed something)

And no Hotch, you were referring about Clyde when you said he betrayed his team. Or you are being redundant saying that Doyle is a sociopath. And Doyle did not have a "team", Doyle had followers.

This one was bad because the writers messed up in the same one minute dialogue.

[zannej]

I think they knew who the killer was in the episode "Doubt" but they needed more proof and they also knew in "Soul Mates". Although the latter was an episode I really didn't like all that much.

[Old Dog]

I think they knew who the killer was in the episode "Doubt" but they needed more proof and they also knew in "Soul Mates". Although the latter was an episode I really didn't like all that much.

Oh I love Soul Mates! That look Reid gives Morgan when he asks if he is sure about his linguistic analysis. That was one of the last seasons when Reid's smarts were still celebrated properly.

[SSAHotchner]

Yes, both of those episodes were in the early seasons with the good writers.

[zannej]

Old dog, the overall plot of Soul Mates is what annoyed me. There were some nice moments in it, but something about that story annoyed me. And I felt that way before I knew that Erica Messer was one of the writers. It was also another example of people treating Reid like an alien, as if knowledge of literature and such is such a strange thing. But it was still better than all of season 7...

[Danielg342]

I think they knew who the killer was in the episode "Doubt" but they needed more proof and they also knew in "Soul Mates". Although the latter was an episode I really didn't like all that much.

I don't recall that about “Doubt”- I still think it was halfway through before they figured out who the killer was; while “Soul Mates” still required the team to figure out who the other partner was.

Either way, neither case had the crime occur right at the beginning, with the UnSub known right away; with the team at the Round Table drawing up a suspect as soon as they hear of the case. That's the kind of case I'd love to see- the UnSub daring the team to prove that he committed the crime, with the subsequent battle of wits and other twists, before the team prevails.