The Bullpen

[normasm]

To your one point about the security lock in the hotel room (Erin's, right?), i think the implication is that Rossi would be coming in later, so she left the deadbolt unengaged.

 

But everything else you said, spot-on! Especially Garcia's reaction to the zugzwang flu taking over her computer. Lawd.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I really don't know if this is the right place to put this, but, please, enjoy.

 

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tv-show-under-fire-for-depicting-murder,37206/

 

“Needless to say, the millions of viewers who saw, for the first time ever, one human take the life of another Wednesday night were left deeply disturbed,”

 

BWAH! I love it

 

I love this almost as much.

 

http://next-episode.net/criminal-minds/trailer

[Old Dog]

Brilliant! I love that! Very very clever. Thanks for the link.

[Old Dog]

Season 10 starts here in the UK tonight - only 3 weeks later than in the USA. Usually we are months behind - which is why I watch on line. I think the fact that they have bumped it up is an indicator of just how popular it is over here - you can catch an episode or two every single day. But what amused me was when Sky TV emailed the promo information for Season 10 they used a Meet the Team gallery that was all pictures of the team from when they were first on the show. I was really struck by JJ's from Season One - she is hardly recognisable in it. She was such a softly pretty girl and it certainly showed up how much she has changed and gained some hard edges, MGG must be Peter Pan as he just doesn't seem to grow up!

[missmycat]

Apparently Breen Frazier and Larry Teng did some sort of chat last night while this episode was on. They both confirmed that 10x11 was the Mary Sue's PTSD episode. Hotch is suppose to help her through it. For my part I do not plan on watching it in real time. If it turns out to be half way decent I can always watch it on demand. That is one episode I won't mind Reid being scarce. I can't stand the thought of him suffering even the slightest bit of anxiety over that pathetic character.

 

And one other thing Breen apparently wants to do a prank wars part 2 with Morgan and Reid. If he can find the right opportunity to do so. Considering the fact he totally botched Reid's academic background the first time he did it, one has to wonder why in the world he wants another go at it. 

[normasm]

I wonder who is directing, does anyone know? I hope it's not MGG. 

 

I didn't like prank wars part 1, may I just hope they don't have time for this?? Please?? Although I would like to see Reid and Morgan have more brotherly action, I think personal bits could be better used other than this way. 

[Danielg342]

I didn't buy Prank War I for the simple fact that it's unprofessional and, on the job, would likely lead to a stiff reprimand. What does it say to the public that, on the case, two FBI agents think it's appropriate to play practical jokes on each other? They sure don't look like they're taking their job seriously, which is the last thing I'd want if I need the police's help.

 

Maybe if Reid did some sort of "April Fool's crime" where he concocts something entirely made up, gets a police department and a few actors to play along and dupes the team into thinking a real crime took place it could work. It could contain some "meta message" about the team taking things too seriously, or about critical thinking or some other kind of point Reid would like to make- but, that would require the writers to be clever, and I'm not sure they're capable of that.

 

I don't know...an "April Fool's crime" might be fun, even if it too is unprofessional. At this stage, how else can the show think outside of the box? *shrugs*

[alexvillage]

So, JJ is going to be on PTSD mode and Hotch will help her. 

I wish the writers did not make Hotch into a superman. He did not show PTSD either, even tough he was viciously attacked, then had to hear his wife being murdered, not to mention not knowing about the kid, then he killed the perp with his bare hands.

The little we saw was his attention to security, maybe a hint of "I need a friend to get out of the house" when Emily picked him up (which would probably be something the friends decided to do, not that Hotch asked). We could say he worked some of the initial PTSD when he killed Foyet. But even for an agent, killing someone with bare hands is pretty extreme.. After that, nothing.

And he was the super hero for Emily too, the go to guy that listened to her whenever she needed to talk. 

The writers managed to strip Hotch of feelings. Or did I miss some episode where this was addressed?

[FrankieRoo]

Season 10 has really disappointed me so far.  I watch the show for Reid, I'll admit that now. 

 

So Reid is still having pains in his neck in the first episode...and that's it now is it?  What was the point in having that scene if nothing else was going happen?  He was going to have an episode but that got dropped.  When season 10 was coming out there were interviews about Reid saying that he would be struggling with the physical and emotional pain of the shooting.  We've had nothing.   Even in Garcia's episode, a perfect opportunity to have some nice Reid moments, we get nothing. 

 

JJ gets an episode about her sister (who died when she was a teenager) and a PTSD episode with references to the absolutely awful 200. 

 

The next episode is a child kidnapping episode - I always find these types of episodes boring, plus it will be yet more excuses to show JJ sympathising because she's a mother too you know. 

 

The rest of the spoilers don't leave me with much hope.  When is Reid going to get an episode?

 

I love the show but sometimes I wonder why I keep watching it.   

 

[dusang]

I didn't buy Prank War I for the simple fact that it's unprofessional and, on the job, would likely lead to a stiff reprimand. What does it say to the public that, on the case, two FBI agents think it's appropriate to play practical jokes on each other? They sure don't look like they're taking their job seriously, which is the last thing I'd want if I need the police's help.

 

Maybe if Reid did some sort of "April Fool's crime" where he concocts something entirely made up, gets a police department and a few actors to play along and dupes the team into thinking a real crime took place it could work. It could contain some "meta message" about the team taking things too seriously, or about critical thinking or some other kind of point Reid would like to make- but, that would require the writers to be clever, and I'm not sure they're capable of that.

 

I don't know...an "April Fool's crime" might be fun, even if it too is unprofessional. At this stage, how else can the show think outside of the box? *shrugs*

 

I agree with the overall unprofessionalism of a prank war on a real crime but using the resources of the BAU and a city police force on a fake crime for a prank war seems infinitely worse.

[Danielg342]

I think “The Slave of Duty” was supposed to be the attempt at that, but I didn't catch too much PTSD from Hotch...unless he just silently stewed.

[Danielg342]

I agree with the overall unprofessionalism of a prank war on a real crime but using the resources of the BAU and a city police force on a fake crime for a prank war seems infinitely worse.

The St. Louis Blues hockey team has a yearly prank they co-ordinate with the police department where they take the team's rookies out on a hunt for some strange creature only for the police to “arrest” them- complete with the booking- for poaching. So using the police for a prank isn't as inconceivable as you'd think.

Perhaps Reid would come up with a similar idea and use Washington PD or something so the BAU wouldn't waste money on the jet, or something.

*shrugs*

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I think “The Slave of Duty” was supposed to be the attempt at that, but I didn't catch too much PTSD from Hotch...unless he just silently stewed.

 

If you're referring to shortly after Hotch was ambushed and stabbed by Foyet, he returns to the field almost immediately, as Elle did before him. The episode was Haunted, where Sean Patrick Flanery played Darrin Call, a mentally unstable man who attacked and killed several people in a drugstore after being off his meds for some time. Hotch was extremely on edge for the entire ep, being snappish both with the team, with the drugstore clerk and the local LEOs. What surprised me was that no one told him that maybe he should have gone home.

[normasm]

I think during this entire period he was struggling, Morgan was trying to run interference, and Rossi was trying to mediate. It was realistic in that we got hints of what Hotch was struggling with, but it didn't take over the whole show…. what a novel thought, that...

Edited October 25, 2014 by normasm

[Danielg342]

If you're referring to shortly after Hotch was ambushed and stabbed by Foyet, he returns to the field almost immediately, as Elle did before him. The episode was Haunted, where Sean Patrick Flanery played Darrin Call, a mentally unstable man who attacked and killed several people in a drugstore after being off his meds for some time. Hotch was extremely on edge for the entire ep, being snappish both with the team, with the drugstore clerk and the local LEOs. What surprised me was that no one told him that maybe he should have gone home.

No I'm referring to the events after “100”. I meant for that post to immediately follow alexvillage's, but a few others beat me to the punch.

[SSAHotchner]

I think “The Slave of Duty” was supposed to be the attempt at that, but I didn't catch too much PTSD from Hotch...unless he just silently stewed.

Slave of Duty was basically Hotch dealing with getting Jack set up in his apartment and deciding what to do, whether he should leave the BAU to be more available as a dad. But even that only took 2 days for him to decide. I did think that we got a little of his angst in Hanley Waters when he was doing the grief assessments with the team, particularly those with Morgan and Rossi where they mentioned Haley and how was Hotch himself coping, but also in the scene where he confronts the unsub, Shelley, and talks about her son's death, how it wasn't her fault, etc. His speech to her kind of paralleled his own situation over losing his wife. The Hotch scenes are the main reason I love that episode. Otherwise everything after Prentiss "dies" in season 6 is awful...not that the rest of the season was much better.  I also think that him getting stabbed repeatedly by the Reaper should have caused much more PTSD than we ever saw. All we saw was him lamenting about being separated from Jack. But what about what happened to him? We saw the aftermath of what happened to Reid at the hands of Tobias Henkle for several episodes afterward. Then again, we had much better writers in season 2.

[zannej]

The "April Fool's" thing made me think of a story my father told me about one of his co-workers (my father was in federal law enforcement for people not in the know). Some dumbo decided to try to rob a donut shop that was full of law enforcement agents-- some of them in uniform. My father's buddy was the closest one. Guy pulled a gun on the clerk and demanded money. When the case went to court, one of the witnesses testified that the buddy did draw his weapon and point it at the would-be-robber but instead of "freeze, federal agent!" he said "April Fool's, Motherfucker!"

 

Season 6 was such a clusterfuck I don't even know where to begin.

 

I'm honestly not looking forward to JJ having PTSD because I don't trust the writers to pull it off in a way that won't suck. And I think it sucks that it will probably ONLY be Hotch helping-- as if Reid never got tortured. That said, I'm glad they are actually giving Hotch something to do-- unless he just sits there and passively listens to JJ without commenting.

 

I hated the prank wars. What Morgan did could have gotten him a demerit on his record and gotten him in some hot water with the bureau. Reid managed to retaliate after the case, BUT, what he did was just lame and not in-character. A genius of his caliber could have found something MUCH better to do. The screaming on the iPod was just stupid. There are ways for Reid to mess with people-- pretending he takes them literally when he knows they don't mean something literally and then arguing semantics, pretending to not get a joke, etc. Although Reid could probably rig something in Morgan's desk to scare the daylights out of him when he opened it. Although, even that is rather low-brow.

[JMO]

Watching 'Amplification' for the six thousandth time.  This is one I've always had a pet peeve with---specifically with Hotch telling JJ that it wouldn't be fair for her to warn her family to stay home.  He implies that they shouldn't save the people they love simply because they can't make the information widely known, and thereby also save others.  It's never made sense to me.  Isn't it better to save someone, rather than no one?  Shouldn't there be some perks for those who take on the risk?

[Cobalt Stargazer]

To a point, yes, but to be fair Rossi cautions Prentiss not to tell that woman the real reason the guys in the HazMat suits are in the neighborhood. She makes up a story on the spot about how its black mold or something, but when she and Dave are walking away, she says, "Don't Emily me..." And in the end of the ep, she tells him that next time when she has to lie because of the job, she'll probably do it without thinking twice. So she didn't like it, but she did it anyway.

[zannej]

JMO, I think back then Hotch was more of a stickler for the rules and the rules said you don't reveal this info to people who don't have proper security clearance. The concern was not that it would save people, but that it could lead to mass panic. The idea is to prevent people from being harmed or harming others while panicking over stuff. Mass hysteria is a problem that has to be dealt with when something leaks. On the flipside, there are a lot of reasonable people who would take things in stride and not freak out, but there are enough of the people who would panic that it becomes a concern.

[Danielg342]

JMO, I think back then Hotch was more of a stickler for the rules and the rules said you don't reveal this info to people who don't have proper security clearance. The concern was not that it would save people, but that it could lead to mass panic. The idea is to prevent people from being harmed or harming others while panicking over stuff. Mass hysteria is a problem that has to be dealt with when something leaks. On the flipside, there are a lot of reasonable people who would take things in stride and not freak out, but there are enough of the people who would panic that it becomes a concern.

 

Hotch also wasn't very consistent with the rules either. Jordan Todd lied to gain rapport with a witness the team needed to open up and Hotch absolutely destroyed her for it. Then Rossi lies to break Boyd Schuller and he doesn't bat an eye, nor does Hotch bat an eye in this situation.

 

I mean, I get that witnesses need to trust the FBI so the agents can't be too wild with their stories...but I didn't see too much harm in Todd's actions in "52 Pickup". It's not like the witnesses would be needed after the case anyway, and it's not like Todd lied on her press releases. It just sounded like, to me, a contrived example of Hotch being a stickler for the rules when they could have done something else.

[normasm]

To be fair to Hotch, he didn't know until after the fact that Rossi was lying to the judge. And there had been several run-ins between the two for other unacceptable (even for a founder) behavior.

I thought he was a little harsh on Todd, too, but it was because he didn't want a newbie to flounder around not knowing the rules. Once you know the rules and have a bit of experience in the BAU field, you can innovate a bit.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Hotch also wasn't very consistent with the rules either. Jordan Todd lied to gain rapport with a witness the team needed to open up and Hotch absolutely destroyed her for it. Then Rossi lies to break Boyd Schuller and he doesn't bat an eye, nor does Hotch bat an eye in this situation.

 

I mean, I get that witnesses need to trust the FBI so the agents can't be too wild with their stories...but I didn't see too much harm in Todd's actions in "52 Pickup". It's not like the witnesses would be needed after the case anyway, and it's not like Todd lied on her press releases. It just sounded like, to me, a contrived example of Hotch being a stickler for the rules when they could have done something else.

 

To be fair, Emily kind of called Hotch on that. She asked if Jordan had misrepresented the Bureau itself, and he said "she misrepresented herself", and Emily more or less told him that Jordan would never be able to actually learn the job if her every move was under a microscope.

[Old Dog]

Amplification always annoys me too. Hotch tells JJ not to phone home and warn the family yet in an earlier episode, Lessons Learned, he actually tried to phone Haley and warn her not to go to the Mall because of the terrorist attack. I know he couldn't get through but he did try so it always seemed OOC to me for him to be so uptight with JJ.

[zannej]

I think in Hotch's position he might have felt one way but known that he still had to tow the party line in a way. He might understand JJ's concerns but at the same time, he's the supervisor and couldn't condone her letting people know what was going on.

 

Also, Hotch could have simply called Haley and said "Hey, can you wait until I get home so we can go together?" or something. But then, its hard to tell. The writing can be very inconsistent sometimes. The characters can be very mercurial so as to fit with whatever plot the writers come up with. I think it is one of the weaknesses inherent in programs that use different writers when not all of the writers are on the same page about the personalities of the characters. I know that there may be some dispute among the writers about how certain characters would act in specific situations. 

 

Hotch's reaction to Jordan might have had something to do with his lack of trust in women that Prentiss once mentioned. I wish that they would satisfactorily explain why on the show sometime.

Edited October 27, 2014 by zannej

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Amplification always annoys me too. Hotch tells JJ not to phone home and warn the family yet in an earlier episode, Lessons Learned, he actually tried to phone Haley and warn her not to go to the Mall because of the terrorist attack. I know he couldn't get through but he did try so it always seemed OOC to me for him to be so uptight with JJ.

 

Another instance of "not using insider info" is when Reid asks Garcia to record a message for his mother in case he doesn't pull through. He says that he knows he can't tell Diana what's really going on without alerting everyone at her hospital, but that he wants to say goodbye just in case. That was another effective use of Not Annoying!Garcia, because when he calls she doesn't say hello in an overblown way, and he even comments on it - "What, no traditional witty Garcia greeting?" "I'm all out of witty right now, considering where you are."

[zannej]

Yeah, I liked that Garcia recognized the gravity of the situation and was being serious but wasn't whining and making it all about herself. 

[normasm]

That scene represented their relationship for me. She's sparkly for him, he's brilliant for her. That was a long time ago, I guess. No matter who she's talking to now, it's about her. She (to our knowledge) hasn't even talked to Reid since she helped save his life. Stupid writing.

 

Guys, I don't blame the actors at all for sometimes fumbling through this show, not even AJ, not even KV. Sure, they all ask for certain things for their characters, but a strong show runner would keep her eye on the ball, and not have the show skewed to any one character, or any one genre beyond the definition of the series from the get-go. If some of the better actors seem like they are "phoning it in" at times, maybe they are; maybe this is because, as we've discussed before, the show runner doesn't run a tight ship, so the writers don't have cohesion, and when the writers aren't keeping canon, the show is all over the place.

[zannej]

Oh, I don't blame the actors for phoning it in when the writing is sucking. In some ways I also blame the directors for letting the actors phone it in instead of motivating them. But sometimes the writing is just so bad that the directors probably can't get anything good.

 

But quality control is not strong on this show. I mean, look at the mullet hairpiece they put in Matthew and allowed to go through without a single person on set catching it and saying "this looks bad, we need to redo it". Oh, and don't even get me started on how awful the color balance was in I think season 7 where everyone's lips were too bright, Rossi was orange, and you could see the splotchy makeup on Hotch's face. It wasn't until Matthew directed an episode that they fixed the color issue. A good showrunner would have not let that crap slide. I mean, maybe if one episode slipped through and they realized something was wrong, but to have more than 5 episodes with that issue is inexcusable.

 

I really do think that the writers need to sit down and have a powow where they write down stuff about each character and what they think defines the character and then all share what they think. Include things like how each one would react in x situation and then discuss their ideas. If they differed in opinions on anything, they would then discuss it and come to a consensus so there would be consistency in the behavior/reactions of the characters instead of having it be "all over the place".

[Danielg342]

From “Boxed In”:

Is it wrong that I now somehow want them to have a really funny unsub? Not in a way that would make the show seem less serious-- but maybe have an unsub who has some snark and makes some comments that are good for a laugh.

I still remember in Cold Comfort (I think that was the one) where the necrophiliac made a comment about "cracking in to a cold one" or something like that. The team members were disgusted, but I admit that I laughed.

I agree. Foyet could have been that guy if they just gave him the material, because C. Thomas Howell had the chops. I think a funny UnSub would work to break the monotony of the UnSubs of late and, if it's done right, it can add to their menace. I mean, if any of you were tortured by this guy and he's making wisecracks about your life, wouldn't that make you a bit more scared, considering it really sounds like he doesn't care about your life? I know I would.

[normasm]

I remember that remark in Cold Comfort, zannej, when he said "I'm not the only one who likes to crack open a cold one," and Reid looks over at Hotch and nearly cracks up laughing. I thought at the time I first saw it that it was Matthew breaking through the Reid character. Now, I think Reid would actually do that and restrain himself immediately.

 

And i agree, daniel, that the fact Foyet could make me laugh made him all the creepier, and no one did it better than Howell. But I think there's a line, which they did not cross with (the live) Foyet, that these writers would blunder all over and ruin. Just look at what they did with the Foyet character in Route 66, trying to work the hallucinatory, funny angle. IMO, it was awful. Howell was up for it, it just wasn't written and directed well enough.

Edited October 28, 2014 by normasm

[Old Dog]

I'm so glad there is someone else who found Route 66 dreadful! I thought it was really badly done and so hokey - it is so ironic that they were trying so hard to promote Beth ("she's a keeper") and now Beth is destined for the chop! That's one of the handful of episodes that I cannot bear to rewatch any part of.

[Knittzu]

Route 66 is the one where Hotch almost dies and the "family" just shrugs and continues on with their work, right? Yeah, awful. They all should have been out in the waiting area like they were for Emily. So what if they caught one less psycho killer? The world they live in is positively teeming with murderous nutjobs; taking a few days off certainly wasn't going to make any different in the long run.

 

Foyet could have been that guy if they just gave him the material, because C. Thomas Howell had the chops.

 

 

Totally agree. They really wasted an opportunity there. Unfortunately, I don't think the current roster of writers is capable of writing a character who is both evil and funny. That requires quite a bit of finesse to pull off and they often struggle just keeping their own team members IC.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Oh, I don't blame the actors for phoning it in when the writing is sucking. In some ways I also blame the directors for letting the actors phone it in instead of motivating them. But sometimes the writing is just so bad that the directors probably can't get anything good.

 

I'm torn about that, because I think professionals should give their best effort even when other people aren't doing the same thing. I don't know how they film CM, but if they don't make time for extra takes or re-shooting a scene if they don't get what they need from the actors, that's something that should change. I know that soaps tend to block tape, which is where they film a bunch of episodes all at once, and usually only give one take whether the actors sell the writing or not.  They also shoot way in advance, sometimes four or five months ahead. So what they film in, say, June, might not show up until the fall or even the winter. For a show that's on every week instead of every day, it's probably different, though.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think the current roster of writers is capable of writing a character who is both evil and funny. That requires quite a bit of finesse to pull off and they often struggle just keeping their own team members IC.

 

I think Professor Rothschild was supposed to be funny, but Jason Alexander was way too hammy for my taste. And while it makes me skeeve a little, Jacob Dawes' "Don't you ever smile?" to Hotch is creepy-funny. To me, at least.

[zannej]

I just realized something... in "100", Jack went and hid in a box.. So we already had Jack in the box!

 

I have to agree that these writers have all of the subtlety of a neon yellow 18-wheeler, so I doubt they could pull of the humor well. Their attempts at humor in the past have been at the expense of Reid's intellect. They made him act so dumb. And we know Matthew can do comedy well, so it was the writing that was bad.

[normasm]

I agree, after seeing outtakes from Life After Beth, MGG will do anything for the shot the director wants (and then some!).

 

I think that now, on CM, they are not only not writing the best stories, but they aren't directing them all that passionately either. The setup and follow-through for all the shots must be so rote by now. I'd be surprised if they didn't have to wake the actors up to say their lines.

[SSAHotchner]

To be fair to Hotch, he didn't know until after the fact that Rossi was lying to the judge. And there had been several run-ins between the two for other unacceptable (even for a founder) behavior.

I thought he was a little harsh on Todd, too, but it was because he didn't want a newbie to flounder around not knowing the rules. Once you know the rules and have a bit of experience in the BAU field, you can innovate a bit.

I also think that at the point of the Boyd Schuller case, Hotch was preoccupied with Foyet and not knowing where Haley and Jack were. And the fact that Rossi lied to a guy who was now dead...well, what difference did that make?

[SSAHotchner]

I think in Hotch's position he might have felt one way but known that he still had to tow the party line in a way. He might understand JJ's concerns but at the same time, he's the supervisor and couldn't condone her letting people know what was going on.

 

Also, Hotch could have simply called Haley and said "Hey, can you wait until I get home so we can go together?" or something. But then, its hard to tell. The writing can be very inconsistent sometimes. The characters can be very mercurial so as to fit with whatever plot the writers come up with. I think it is one of the weaknesses inherent in programs that use different writers when not all of the writers are on the same page about the personalities of the characters. I know that there may be some dispute among the writers about how certain characters would act in specific situations. 

 

Hotch's reaction to Jordan might have had something to do with his lack of trust in women that Prentiss once mentioned. I wish that they would satisfactorily explain why on the show sometime.

Zannej, I've always felt that it had something to do with his mother. Nobody knows, but because of his remarks at the end of Natural Born Killer, I've assumed he was abused as a kid. Maybe his mother was verbally abusive. And he had been with Haley since high school so not much experience with other women. Then she becomes shrewish regarding his job. Just my thoughts.

That scene represented their relationship for me. She's sparkly for him, he's brilliant for her. That was a long time ago, I guess. No matter who she's talking to now, it's about her. She (to our knowledge) hasn't even talked to Reid since she helped save his life. Stupid writing.

 

Guys, I don't blame the actors at all for sometimes fumbling through this show, not even AJ, not even KV. Sure, they all ask for certain things for their characters, but a strong show runner would keep her eye on the ball, and not have the show skewed to any one character, or any one genre beyond the definition of the series from the get-go. If some of the better actors seem like they are "phoning it in" at times, maybe they are; maybe this is because, as we've discussed before, the show runner doesn't run a tight ship, so the writers don't have cohesion, and when the writers aren't keeping canon, the show is all over the place.

10,000 likes for you Normasm!!!

[normasm]

SSAH, interesting thoughts. Maybe Hotch doesn't trust women because his mother was too cowed by his father to defend him. In 100, he tells Foyet, "Your father abused you and your mother was too weak to stop him and you always blamed her for that." 

 

I think Haley, as Rossi said, just reached her breaking point with the job. She wasn't being shrewish; that implies she's trying to emasculate him. She wanted him to have a normal job. He didn't want that, for complex reasons. She couldn't stand the strain anymore, and she started destroying their intimacy. It happens all the time, and frequently, not for as justifiable reasons.

Edited October 29, 2014 by normasm

[SSAHotchner]

I'm so glad there is someone else who found Route 66 dreadful! I thought it was really badly done and so hokey - it is so ironic that they were trying so hard to promote Beth ("she's a keeper") and now Beth is destined for the chop! That's one of the handful of episodes that I cannot bear to rewatch any part of.

Yes! You just hit my hot button. That episode had so much potential and they turned it into a Beth love fest. I was beyond furious. It wasn't macabre or innovative or anything. It was just silly writing to have Haley all smiley and joking with Foyet. And then Virgil got all bent out of shape because people criticized it. It was really to TG's credit that he was able to deliver such a moving performance in the midst of that piece of crap.

[SSAHotchner]

SSAH, interesting thoughts. Maybe Hotch doesn't trust women because his mother was too cowed by his father to defend him. In 100, he tells Foyet, "Your father abused you and your mother was too weak to stop him and you always blamed her for that." 

 

I think Haley, as Rossi said, just reached her breaking point with the job. She wasn't being shrewish; that implies she's trying to imasculate him. She wanted him to have a normal job. He didn't want that, for complex reasons. She couldn't stand the strain anymore, and she started destroying their intimacy. It happens all the times, and frequently, not for as justifiable reasons.

Yeah, I get you. It's just that I love Hotch so much that I feel if he were only home one night a month, I'd want to be the one he comes home to on that one night, you know? I guess sometimes I'm too hard on Haley. I wish the writers hadn't gone in that direction. It gave TG a lot of powerful moments, but I would love to see Hollywood portray a successful marriage for a change.

[Danielg342]

...but, if there was a successful marriage, then it gives the characters nothing to angst about, because they're always happy! And we all know True Art Is Angsty, so we can't have happy characters, so no happy marriages!

[/sarcasm]

I think the storyline- and how well the actors sold it (it wasn't written particularly well) is just another example of lazy writing, because it's easy to be overt about misery instead of showing that even in happiness, things are a struggle. What's worse is that the success of “100”, with Hotch crying over Haley getting a nod at the Emmy's, clouded the writers' perception of good drama- Breen Frazier even admitted he wrote “Zugzwang” the way he did after noting the reception “100” got, forgetting that “100” was earned and “Zugzwang” was forced.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

SSAH, interesting thoughts. Maybe Hotch doesn't trust women because his mother was too cowed by his father to defend him. In 100, he tells Foyet, "Your father abused you and your mother was too weak to stop him and you always blamed her for that." 

 

 

He did tell Foyet that, but he also told Vincent Perotta, "You learned to accept the abuse. You learned to smile. And even though your mother never lifted a finger to help you, you still loved her, even though she let you get hurt. Because the truth was that he beat her as often as he beat you."

 

...but, if there was a successful marriage, then it gives the characters nothing to angst about, because they're always happy! And we all know True Art Is Angsty, so we can't have happy characters, so no happy marriages!

[/sarcasm]

 

*cough*JJ and Will.*cough* And don't think that doesn't grate my cheese a little, that Reid and Hotch both lose the women they love while JJ and the semi-creepster seem to be getting a HEA. Not that I need for them to break up or anything, or to see them angsting because Will can't deal with her career, but it does seem particularly glaring that Hotch and Haley broke up because she couldn't cope with how much he liked his work, and that Reid's only (in-canon) relationship ended up in murder, but JJ and her husband just keep clicking along.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Watermelon]

 

*cough*JJ and Will.*cough* And don't think that doesn't grate my cheese a little, that Reid and Hotch both lose the women they love while JJ and the semi-creepster seem to be getting a HEA. Not that I need for them to break up or anything, or to see them angsting because Will can't deal with her career, but it does seem particularly glaring that Hotch and Haley broke up because she couldn't cope with how much he liked his work, and that Reid's only (in-canon) relationship ended up in murder, but JJ and her husband just keep clicking along.

Well to that end, they gave her an easier situation to deal with. Of course a cop is going to be more understanding about why an agent feels like she HAS to go after the bad guys.  It's much different than a SAH mom...although, now that you mention it, it really is quite bullshit that everyone's SO gets put in harms way.

[normasm]

Well, Will and JJ started off knowing about each other's jobs. Will even left NO and his cop job because he knew she wouldn't leave hers, so if he wanted to have a relationship with his kid, he basically had to.

 

Hayley knew Hotch as a high school kid, a student, law student, FBI agent, and BAU agent. That's a lot of changes over a lot of years, as opposed to JJ and Will from 2007 to now. 

[Danielg342]

Well, Will and JJ started off knowing about each other's jobs. Will even left NO and his cop job because he knew she wouldn't leave hers, so if he wanted to have a relationship with his kid, he basically had to.

 

Hayley knew Hotch as a high school kid, a student, law student, FBI agent, and BAU agent. That's a lot of changes over a lot of years, as opposed to JJ and Will from 2007 to now. 

 

I still think they've conveniently sidestepped answering a lot of questions by not bringing Will and Henry around a lot because, at the end of the day, JJ's marriage is horribly one-sided. Will has done everything to maintain the relationship, sacrificing his original home, his original job and eventually his life outside of his family just so he could be with JJ. What sacrifices has JJ made? She got to keep her job, stay where she lives and gets to work whenever she likes and forget her home life. Granted, there are legitimate reasons for this setup...but why would we expect Will to always be happy about this?

[Watermelon]

I still think they've conveniently sidestepped answering a lot of questions by not bringing Will and Henry around a lot because, at the end of the day, JJ's marriage is horribly one-sided. Will has done everything to maintain the relationship, sacrificing his original home, his original job and eventually his life outside of his family just so he could be with JJ. What sacrifices has JJ made? She got to keep her job, stay where she lives and gets to work whenever she likes and forget her home life. Granted, there are legitimate reasons for this setup...but why would we expect Will to always be happy about this?

I've never gotten the impression he is happy about it.  He seems like someone who would probably get drunk at his local bar and complain about his workaholic wife.

[zannej]

I think that in some ways, Will is more of a doormat and he's more understanding. He probably realizes that if he and JJ split that she would be likely to get custody and he really loves his kid. Sometimes people stay in bad relationships because they don't realize how toxic they are-- or even when they realize how toxic they are, they just can't seem to let go. I have a friend who is in a horrible relationship and he knows that the bitch is bad for him and his kid. He's tried to kick her out several times but he always caves and lets her stay.

 

I still think it was bad writing to have Haley divorce Hotch. Yes, I realize she was pissed off that he was gone so often and that she felt like a single parent, but how did moving out help anything other than to punish Hotch and make it even harder for Jack to see his father? It would have been more interesting if they had stayed married and we got angst from Hotch coming in after an argument with Haley and maybe being upset that Jack was acting out in school bc he heard the arguments and was upset. If they had established that it was adversely affecting Jack, I could see Haley having a reason to bail- but they didn't do that. Plus I think the way she left was really crappy. She could have told him flat out that she was going to take Jack and leave if things didn't change. I don't think she ever gave him that ultimatum-- because he was totally shocked when she was gone.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

 Plus I think the way she left was really crappy. She could have told him flat out that she was going to take Jack and leave if things didn't change. I don't think she ever gave him that ultimatum-- because he was totally shocked when she was gone.

 

To be fair to Haley, just before she left she and Hotch had an argument because he was packing his go-bag to leave for a case. This was when Strauss was in the field with the team, I think, and he had kinda-sorta told Haley that he was going to retire or cut way back so that he could be home with her and Jack a lot more often. While he was putting clothes in his bag, she said something to the effect of, "After this case, there'll be another one. And another one. And another one. There will always be a case, Aaron." He says, "This is who I am." She responds, "No. This is what you do." I will say that he was stunned when he returned home and found that she had packed up herself and Jack and left, possibly to Jessica's, but he's smart enough to have had some inkling that the fight they had before he left might have been the final straw.

 

I do agree, though, that they should not have gotten divorced. After Haley died, Jessica told him, "It isn't like you split up because you stopped loving each other, it was just the damned job that kept getting in the way" or something like that. While it is true in real life that the divorce rate among law enforcement officers is really high, as is the rate of alcoholism, the writers didn't have to go there with Hotch.

[alexvillage]

You remind me of something the show never followed up on.

I think it was on the same episode, the phone rings, I think Hotch picks up and nothing. Then Haley phone rings and she doesn't answer, or leaves, I don't remember.

That gave me the impression that Haley had some kind of secret, but they never explained that.