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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

The title for 4x22 is interesting. Maybe DD/HIVE have more plans for the bay? Maybe there's an ark (LOL)? WHATEVER WILL BECOME OF THE CORN PALACE?!

ETA: Per MG's tweet, it's "Lost In the Flood." I can't post the script page at the moment.

Edited by apinknightmare
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)
-- In response to fan who asked if 421 title will be a Bruce Springsteen song, MG replied: "No. 4x22." (MG tweet, page 33 of Spoilers thread)

Here's the song lyrics to Springsteen's "Lost In the Flood"...

 

The ragamuffin gunner is returnin' home like a hungry runaway

He walks through town all alone--"He must be from the fort," he hears the high school girls say

His countryside's burnin' with wolfman fairies dressed in drag for homicide

The hit-and-run plead sanctuary, 'neath a holy stone they hide

They're breakin' beams and crosses with a spastic's reelin' perfection

Nuns run bald through Vatican halls, pregnant, pleadin' immaculate conception

And everybody's wrecked on Main Street from drinking unholy blood

Sticker smiles sweet as Gunner breathes deep, his ankles caked in mud

And I said, "Hey, gunner man, that's qucksand, that's quicksand, that ain't mud

Have you thrown your senses to the war, or did you lose them in the flood?"

 

That pure American brother, dull-eyed and empty-faced

Races Sundays in Jersey in a Chevy stock super eight

He rides 'er low on the hip, on the side he's got "Bound for Glory" in red, white and blue flash paint

He leans on the hood telling racing stories, the kids call him Jimmy the Saint

Well, that blaze-and-noise boy, he's gunnin' that bitch loaded to blastin' point

He rides head first into a hurricane and disappears into a point

And there's nothin' left but some blood where the body fell, that is, nothin' left that you could sell

Just junk all across the horizon, a real highwayman's farewell

And I said, "Hey kid, you think that's oil? Man, that ain't oil, that's blood"

I wonder what he was thinking when he hit that storm, or was he just lost in the flood?

 

Eighth Avenue sailors in satin shirts whisper in the air

Some storefront incarnation of Maria, she's puttin' on me the stare

And Bronx's best apostle stands with his hand on his own hardware

Everything stops, you hear five quick shots, the cops come up for air

And now the whiz-bang gang from uptown, they're shootin' up the street

And that cat from the Bronx starts lettin' loose, but he gets blown right off his feet

And some kid comes blastin' 'round the corner, but a cop puts him right away

He lays on the street holding his leg, screaming something in Spanish, still breathing when I walked away

And somebody said, "Hey man, did you see that? His body hit the street with such a beautiful thud"

I wonder what the dude was sayin', or was he just lost in the flood?

Hey man, did you see that, those poor cats are sure messed up

I wonder what they were gettin' into, or were they just lost in the flood?

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/brucespringsteen/lostintheflood.html

 

I am puzzled as to what these lyrics mean - and it seems I'm not the only one.  Here's what Rolling Stone Magazine wrote in 2014: 

With its images of returning veterans, Chevy races and post-Vietnam America beginning to erode, this grand, apocalyptic parable foreshadows themes Springsteen would explore throughout his career. It was, he says, about "trying to get a feeling for . . . the forces that affected my parents' lives . . . the whole thing of the wasted life." (Tellingly, he performed it during the Vote for Change concert in 2004.) The recording also marks Van Zandt's first appearance on a Springsteen album: Although he didn't play guitar, Van Zandt supplied the sound-effects blast that opens the song.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-greatest-bruce-springsteen-songs-of-all-time-20140116/lost-in-the-flood-19691231

Edited by tv echo
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ComicFan777

ComicFan777

I think the song is about a war veteran coming back from war, sees the corruption and degeneration of society, and wonders: what are we really fighting for and was everything he did worth it to come back to this.

 

Not sure how this applies to the episode though..

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

I don't think there's any meaning to be drawn from the lyrics. We know the Genesis plan involves wiping out the city - that's why DD built the Corn Palace and did whatever they did with the corn and/or mold from the bay to make the air down there breathable. I guess the plan to enact that involves a flood - and they chose the song for the title and nothing else.

Edited by apinknightmare
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Starfish35

Starfish35

Yeah, I've never gotten the impression that they choose the song titles based on the lyrics or means. Remember the endless analyzing of This is Your Sword that happened last year?

Yeah, the This is Your Sword thing taught me not to look at the lyrics for any meaning.

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kismet

kismet

Here's something to think about...

 

I just posted a recap of the LoT panel at WonderCon in the Mind Your Surroundings thread. Apparently MG said that if LoT had not gone forward, both Sara Lance (CL) and Ray Palmer (BR) would've returned to Arrow.

I like LoT, so I'm happy for s2... but now I'm really happy for s2. SL & RP dropping in on Arrow for 2-3 eps a year is fine, but there is just not enough room in the cast or the storyline for them to become even semi-regulars even with the impending cast departure. The show just does not work with a large ensemble. MG may like all of his characters but the Arrow cannot sustain a storyline when they have that big of a group that all serve the same purpose. S1 had a large cast, but people had different roles & purposes. If SL & RP rejoined Arrow, they would just be additional muscle/brain on TA ~ so unless you have a really challenging supervillain/group which Arrow has yet to successfully write, there is no need to have that big of a crime fighting force in SC.

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kismet

kismet

Perhaps the writers have switched their inspirational classic/soft rock to the bandmates of Genesis this year in addition to Billy Joel... they mentioned the band before, perhaps it extends to Peter Gabriel's solo career. Maybe Genesis should be take both literally on the show & in pop culture referential inspiration.

 

When I saw the title "Lost in the Flood", all I could think of is the Peter Gabriel song "Here Comes the Flood" which has been a frequent background song on many a drama, esp on the CW/WB. And honestly, the lyrics seem like it might be appropriate for a where the show may be emotionally in 422.

 

Lyrical highlights ~ http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/petergabriel/herecomestheflood.html

Lord, here comes the flood
We'll say goodbye to flesh and blood
If again the seas are silent in any still alive
It'll be those who gave their island to survive
Drink up, dreamers, you're running dry.

 

When the flood calls
You have no home, you have no walls
In the thunder crash
You're a thousand minds, within a flash
Don't be afraid to cry at what you see
The actors gone, there's only you and me
And if we break before the dawn, they'll
use up what we used to be.

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kismet

kismet

I wonder how it's being spelled there? B-R-A-K-E-U-P? 

There is some irony in that spelling... since essentially this break-up is really just a plot & couple stall so in many ways it was just stepping on the brakes.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Maybe that's what the Corn Palace is?  It is an Ark for realz!

I think it will be the metaphoric ark for sure.  Still not sure why they  need to destroy Star City.  How about they just move to South Dakota?  They already have a corn palace and everything.  No seriously though, unless they think they are going to wipe out the world, why wouldn't HIVE's elite members just move to where the air is already clear?  Even if the corn maze is somehow magical and rejuvenating, why do they also need to reek havoc on the surface dwellers? 

 

I think the song is about a war veteran coming back from war, sees the corruption and degeneration of society, and wonders: what are we really fighting for and was everything he did worth it to come back to this.

 

Not sure how this applies to the episode though..

I got an Andy and Diggle vibe looking at the lyrics. 

 

Changing subject.  My episode summary for 4-17 reminded me the team gets help from a surprising ally.  Do we still think it's just Curtis?  I mean, that's about the least surprising option. 

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ComicFan777

ComicFan777

Changing subject.  My episode summary for 4-17 reminded me the team gets help from a surprising ally.  Do we still think it's just Curtis?  I mean, that's about the least surprising option. 

 

I would think most likely Curtis...unless Echo's hinting at the Calculator is really meant for 4.17 and not later...

 

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Velocity23

Velocity23

http://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-emily-kinney-brie-larvin-felicity/

Arrow: Emily Kinney Discusses Becoming Felicity's Nemesis

 

You first appeared on The Flash, so were you excited to get to be on Arrow this time?
Emily Kinney: Yeah, definitely. I feel like I had such a nice time on Flash, and ever since then it was like, "Oh, how could Brie [come back]?" It was mostly just scheduling and timing and what works with the story, but it was definitely something where if they wanted to have me, I was excited to do it. And this episode is cool because in Flash, you only saw Brie behind the computer screens, and this time you really get to see her interact and have a lot of scenes with Felicity and Willa [Holland]. So it's really cool. You get to know her a little better this time around.

 

What new things might we learn about her?
Kinney: You'll see how she's able to escape jail, so you'll learn how good she is with all the computer hacking. I think you'll also get insight into why it's so important for her to find Felicity. You get to see a little more of the human side of Brie because she explains more why she is the way she is. That's always interesting when you're dealing with evil characters. Like, why are they so mean?

 

The Flashepisode you were in had a lot of humor in it. Are we going to see Brie in a bit more serious context this time?
Kinney: You definitely do see a serious side of her. You start to understand what she's after when she gets out of jail and starts going after Felicity. You do see her interact and have a lot of scene work with Felicity, so you get to know her. So in that way, there is a lot of drama. I do feel, though, just Brie in general - the costumes and the glasses and stuff - has an element that is a little bit silly and fun. So there's more drama in this one, but it's still got that little bit off silliness to it too.

 

Does Brie know that Felicity is the same person who got her imprisoned?
Kinney: She doesn't know, but I think that's one of the coolest things about this episode. You'll see her figure it out and that's when there's really fun twists and turns in the episode.

 

How would you characterize Brie and Felicity's dynamic throughout the episode?
Kinney: They're rivals in a way. They have this similar skill and they're well matched. So in this episode you just see them as well-matched rivals.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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I wouldn't put it past them to parallel Laurel's and Poppy's deaths. But I thought someone said she was on set past that?

She posted something that implied she was filming something for 420 or 421, probably for Arrow

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bijoux

bijoux

So, Brie has a disabled loved one whose life would be changed with the implant? Pretty much a rehash of the Clock King's motivation, which is why I'm putting my money on it.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)
-- Taiana (ER) might be in 420 or 421.  On Mar. 17, ER tweeted: "All the hidden layers under your costume while shooting on location in #yvr....who knows what I'm taking about? #stayingwarmoutthere." (ER tweet, page 961 of Spoiler Discussion thread)
-- Taiana (ER) might be in 421 or 422. On Mar. 29, she posted instagram pic of her shadow standing amidst unidentified cast trailers. (ER instagram post, page 34 of Spoilers thread)

 

With the way this season's been going, Poppy will probably be in 420, 421, 422 and 423!

Edited by tv echo
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)

He hinted before that he might be back by the wnd of S4. Maybe they pushed his next appearance to S5?

I really like Roy but I'm honestly not sure the show can support 4 people in the field. Guest Star? Sure. Recurring character (ala Nyssa)? Yes, please. Series Regular? Only if they got rid of Thea.

ETA: Not advocating replacing Thea with Roy just that i only want 3 people in the field with a team of 4 total. With Lance acting as a freelancer helping the team from time to time while working on other things.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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tarotx

tarotx

The show could support 4 people in the field. It's the idea that all 4 are equal and having them out at the same time that has driven the poor stunts of season 4. Imo.

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Velocity23

Velocity23

I am still confused about the 4 people on the field at the same time. I thought the whole purpose of more mask in s3 was so that Oliver could be more then just the Arrow. So if they would show smaller stunts with Thea/Roy, Thea/Diggle while Oliver actually being Oliver it could work for me. But not what we have been shown this season. When all 4 people have to go for the simplest fight. I still need Oliver to have the biggest fight scene, that he stops just observing and letting others shine.

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Starfish35

Starfish35

Honestly, I never believed there was any hope of a smaller field team. I mean, I might end up being wrong about that. But I figured Laurel would be replaced by someone. I just figured it would be Curtis, not Roy.

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Guest

Guest

They could do 4 people in the field if they remembered that Oliver is the lead and he needs to actually do something more than jump off something and watch. It's not necessarily the 4 people in the field, it's how they show and use them that's the problem.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

Is it confirmed that Brie is coming back to take Felicity's microchip to help someone she loves who's going through the same thing?

 

Because if it is confirmed, I can see this as a catalyst for Felicity to start mass producing the chip (which is her new goal to help people). Start a whole medical division of PT.

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Sunshine

Sunshine

The Billy Joel Song for 4.21 Monument Point is "Got to Begin Again" per MG.  I wonder if Oliver is off the island which might be the reason for the horrendous beard SA was adorned with.  If so Poppy would have to die in 4.18 or 4.20 unless they have 2 sets of flashbacks (Tommy's funeral and the island) in 4.19 which seems unlikely.  Are we getting LL flashbacks in 4.18 or is she just in the 4.19 flashback?   

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lemotomato

lemotomato

The Billy Joel Song for 4.21 Monument Point is "Got to Begin Again" per MG. I wonder if Oliver is off the island which might be the reason for the horrendous beard SA was adorned with. If so Poppy would have to die in 4.18 or 4.20 unless they have 2 sets of flashbacks (Tommy's funeral and the island) in 4.19 which seems unlikely. Are we getting LL flashbacks in 4.18 or is she just in the 4.19 flashback?

Non-island flashbacks for sure in 4.19, because of the flashback funeral. Not sure about 4.18. We thought 4.18 would be Lance's flashbacks because PB posted a pic of him in a wig, but it turns out that was probably for the LoT episode filming at the same time
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