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Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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tarotx

tarotx

(edited)

Maseo was a major recurring last season so I don't know why he wouldn't count. He wasn't a real villain. He was Oliver's partner. Slade turned into a Villain but in a lot a ways it's like a vampire or Zombie turn. The fact that he's just a messed up man right now is sad. 

 

Imo the way Sara and Shado died and the fact that Malcolm is still alive is the only big issues. I know Roy is alive but he was blasted by ray and attacked (for real) in prison before the fake death and is now on the run alone. Being alone is very sad for his character. Team Arrow became his family. 


Quentin also has a near death experience at the end of season 2.  

Edited by tarotx
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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

(edited)

Maseo provided the means for an entire city to be murdered. His manpain excuse is no better than Malcolm's or Slade's (waaah, someone murdered my loved one so Imma murder a whole lot of innocent people (and try to murder my lovely wife), waaaaaaah). He's a villain.

 

We weren't talking about people leaving, we were talking about people being killed. Roy wasn't killed, he was just beaten up. If we count beatings we get into the scores and the numbers become meaningless. In-show, being blasted by Ray's electricity wasn't a near-death experience. In-show, it was no big. Quentin's near-death may count...I'm not sure whether it was natural causes or not. I'm also not sure it counts as near-death. He was hospitalized but we don't really know enough details to count him or not count him. Again, if we count every hospitalization we get into big numbers.

Edited by AyChihuahua
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

I'd have to include Robert and Yao Fei on that list of people who died because of their strong influence on Oliver's hero journey (mentioned in the honor the dead by fighting scene), even if they weren't in the show much.

I think for me, major character means in the regular credits. Those two were definitely important to his journey, but not really to the show. They were only in a few episodes. 

 

It's all opinion, though, and how one defines squishy terms such as "major," so it's probably impossible to debate with much precision. Overall I think they've killed too many women, but not to a degree that I'm offended, other than Sara's unnecessarily grotesque death. Next year there won't be any major female characters left for them to kill. I'm personally fairly sure that Thea and Felicity are safe for the run of the show, and I don't worry TOO much about Lyla.

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

The numbers don't really matter to me. It's a grimdark show that gets off on using death as the main source of motivation to the hero's journey. What then happens is -- because killing people to motivate Oliver is part of the premise of the show -- they should be finding ways to avoid falling into the Women in Refrigerators trope. The problematic trope only concerns female characters, which have been historically killed, victimized and brutalized over and over again in pretty much every single superhero property ever written, by male villains, with the intention to cause pain to male hero. The women are reduced to objects that the hero possess, and that the villain can steal/destroy to motivate the hero's narrative. That's what the trope is about, and that's what's concerning about Arrow.

 

The trope doesn't apply to male characters being killed. Spider-Man's Uncle Ben doesn't fit the trope. Tommy Merlyn doesn't fit the trope. But so far on Arrow, the number of women who have been victimized by male villains who only do it to propel Oliver's journey is problematic.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

the number of women who have been victimized by male villains who only do it to propel Oliver's journey is problematic.

 

This is a problem even taking death off the table.  Thea's whole storyline the last two years almost never is really hers.  She never gets to resolve it.  Though I suppose they see her deciding she's would die rather than give into her blood lust as her taking ownership for her storyline, but she never is given the chance to save herself.  Last year, this year, she is comatose while Oliver gets the job done.  I need that to stop. 

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kismet

kismet

I do agree that they need to give the females more agency in their own storylines. Also their injuries/deaths need to be about them and their journey, not just to propel OQ's journey. That all being said, Arrow I think has done a decent job writing and integrating females into the narrative and making them part of the story. The same can not be said for the FLASH, where females barely exist in the story at all. Or LOT, where 1 of the 2 female characters is simply a pawn to kill the bad guy and her other role is love interest to be tossed between 3 of her male cast mates. 

 

I just hope the LL's death is a heroic one, because she is a mask & has been on the show for 4yrs. It will not make up for the harsh & unnecessary way they killed Sara (or even Shado or Moira), but hopefully they have learned from their mistakes. And killing her badly, wouldn't absolve them or make up for how they killed Sara. There is truly no way for them to redeem that mistake. I hope it stays true to her character and is caused because she is headstrong and foolish most of the time, especially in her crime fighting. So it would only make sense that she would make a dumb strategic move in court and then a dumb tactical move in the field, which results in her untimely (on the show) death, but her appropriate time to depart the show (if not a little overdue). These are the writers that thought her running back into a burning & structurally unsound building to retrieve paperwork was a heroic dead - so I have faith they will find a way to make LL's death be simultaneously foolhardy & heroic.

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kismet

kismet

Sorry, you lost me at "because she is a mask". :/

Didn't mean to offend or lose you, I just meant she is a masked superhero it would be kinda silly to kill her in an unremarkable way on a superhero show. Superheros should get heroic deaths that's part of the gig. I may not agree with the fact or how LL got her mask, but at the end of the day she is a masked superhero, so a heroic death seems to make sense.

 

She's also one of the good guys and good guys deserve heroic deaths. I would want the same for the unmasked superheroes on Arrow if & when the show decides to kill them off. The good guys should die like Tommy and not like Sara.

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EmeraldArcher

EmeraldArcher

I want LL to die as BC because I see an unintended separation between the two, and I can respect BC dying a heroic death.  BC and LL don't even seem like the same person (probably because they're not--the stunt person is BC) in the same way that Oliver and Green Arrow are clearly the same person. I'm not referring to looks, but rather to personality, motives, actions, etc. 

 

For example, I can't reconcile that the LL who crosses her arms and is haughty and condescending to everyone is the same person as the BC who leapt onto Green Arrow's zip cable before the arrow anchored.  That requires way more trust in a teammate than LL has ever shown to another human being.  Whether or not we agree on KC's acting choices, I think we can agree that BC joins the fight and takes as many risks as her teammates. So, I'm OK with BC getting a hero's death even if I don't think that LL deserves one.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

The biggest reason I want to see LL die as BC is because I want the writers to show the audience that yes, it's dangerous being a vigilante which brings back a sense of urgency when the team goes out into the field. I also hope that after Laurel dies, the team gets hurt a LOT more often. Getting hit by bullets, having bruises, breaking bones etc. Because we don't see that now and that's one of the reasons why these actions scenes have been so damn boring this season, because I think we've gotten used to thinking that the team is invincible...

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EmeraldArcher

EmeraldArcher

The biggest reason I want to see LL die as BC is because I want the writers to show the audience that yes, it's dangerous being a vigilante which brings back a sense of urgency when the team goes out into the field. I also hope that after Laurel dies, the team gets hurt a LOT more often. Getting hit by bullets, having bruises, breaking bones etc. Because we don't see that now and that's one of the reasons why these actions scenes have been so damn boring this season, because I think we've gotten used to thinking that the team is invincible...

I agree.  When it was just Oliver going out into the field, we saw him get hurt and even some of the lasting effects of those injuries.  His knee injury caused him pain for awhile, and his movements reflected that. When he got shot, he still flinched later in the episode if someone unwittingly hugged him or touched his wound. Now, either they don't get hurt, or their injuries only last for the scene. Having been injured or shot early in the episode doesn't prevent them from being at 100% fighting capacity later in the episode.  Oliver hasn't even shown bruising when DD has pummeled his face.  

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kismet

kismet

I agree.  When it was just Oliver going out into the field, we saw him get hurt and even some of the lasting effects of those injuries.  His knee injury caused him pain for awhile, and his movements reflected that. When he got shot, he still flinched later in the episode if someone unwittingly hugged him or touched his wound. Now, either they don't get hurt, or their injuries only last for the scene. Having been injured or shot early in the episode doesn't prevent them from being at 100% fighting capacity later in the episode.  Oliver hasn't even shown bruising when DD has pummeled his face.  

I think that is an overall writing & filming issue that definitely needs to be improved. I don't think LL/BCs death will have an impact on that unless the writers feel the need to write more injuries or at least more aftereffects of injuries during s5. The writers have seemed to make TA invincible losers this season, they can barely win but they never get hurt. It feels like injuries disappeared along with realism. I half wonder if it is related to budgeting because make-up & shoots can be expensive if the injuries don't line-up in every shot. Hopefully, s5 will be a new season and the show can return to some of their roots in terms of quality stuntwork & better writing. 

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nksarmi

nksarmi

"The good guys should die like Tommy and not like Sara."

 

That pretty much sums it up.  I think Arrow uses women better than Flash does and I don't really think that there is a huge disparity in stories being for plot points instead of having real resonance.  For example, for me, the search for Ray was a better story for Felicity and what it meant for her character than Laurel's need to bring back Sara.  But while not fantastic, Felicity's wheelchair story was slightly better than Oliver's daddy story.  I mean for all the horribleness plot regarding the lie - it's not like the upside was we got to know what Oliver really felt about being a dad.  Did finding out he has a son make him think about giving up being the Arrow once they defeated Darkh?  Did he start to think about if he and Felicity would make good parents?  Or even if their life would ever be safe to bring a child into?  Did he question if he could be a good dad considering how kind of messed up his parents were? And so on.  We got ZERO insight into Oliver's psyche with this story.  At least with the wheelchair story for Felicity - we got some small glimpse inside her head.

 

So all in all, I think shallow stories with less emotional impact than we deserve is just something that has gotten worse on Arrow over the seasons.  Perhaps with this new death, they can find a way to right the ship.  Because while I'm disgusted on some level that Malcolm is probably going to be responsible for Laurel's death - if the show gets tighter because of it, then I'm glad.  The Laurel / BC story has just been problematic for too long.  I have thought of dozens of ways they could have fixed it, but since they choose not to - her death is probably the best thing the show can do, especially if it wants to go for six or seven seasons instead of five.

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Guest

Guest

OH I'm sure we're going to see Quentin's ghost in episode 421 which is why PB is on set O_O

 

Spooky

 

PLOT TWIST. Everyone's a ghost!

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Guest

Guest

EXCEPT FELICITY. 

 

#actualFelicityshow

Yep. Then in s5 it becomes The Felicity Diaries: Ghost Files.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

Dialogue tease definitely to Oliver about Cupid. Just can't figure out who is saying it. I could see anyone but LL saying it.

Of course it has to be Felicity because let's not forget, this has now become The Felicity Show :)

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kismet

kismet

All joking aside, it does sound like something snarky FS would say to OQ. Especially since she sometimes uses humor to hide her emotions. And I imagine a fake wedding is going to be emotional, no matter who's idea or how necessary it was.

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

She might, but I hope she doesn't comment on Oliver getting to enjoy the "fun parts." :)

 

LOL! Depends on the delivery, I guess ;)

 

Regarding that photo of Emily chatting with Bamford, I do hope there's an Olicity stunt or two during the last few episodes. I've missed those this season. Apparently the director of this episode, Kevin Tacharoen, is pretty good with the action. 

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jay741982

jay741982

LOL! Depends on the delivery, I guess ;)

 

Regarding that photo of Emily chatting with Bamford, I do hope there's an Olicity stunt or two during the last few episodes. I've missed those this season. Apparently the director of this episode, Kevin Tacharoen, is pretty good with the action.

Yes we deserve an Olicity stunt or two or three lol

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lemotomato

lemotomato

(edited)

Now that it's 99.999% sure that Laurel is in the grave, I wonder how much fanservice-y stuff she's going to get in the next 3 episodes? Will there be time for her to do the salmon ladder? Or a positive Lauriver scene? Will *gasp* "Pretty Bird" finally be uttered? I'm pretty sure she's going to get a decisive victory in court against DD, at least. I feel like it's possible that they're going to stop dropping anvils for everyone else and just load up on positive Laurel stuff to ease some of the angry and bitter reactions they're going to get. 

Edited by lemotomato
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wonderwall

wonderwall

Knowing EBR and knowing Felicity, I definitely think that if that line is hers, it's going to be 90% hostile... And I'm going to hate it because it does seem like a cruel comment if it's delivered with a lot of hostility...

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Chaser

Chaser

Felicity in a stunt would be great but I'm more excited at the prospect of Lance and Felicity sharing screentime. Felicity in a scene with someone not named Oliver or Curtis? Yes please.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

Felicity in a stunt would be great but I'm more excited at the prospect of Lance and Felicity sharing screentime. Felicity in a scene with someone not named Oliver or Curtis? Yes please.

 

If only that person could be Diggle... *heavy sigh*

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Will *gasp* "Pretty Bird" finally be uttered?

 

I could see Felicity dropping it over the coms as in "Hey Pretty Bird, Ghost coming up on your left."

 

 

 

Knowing EBR and knowing Felicity, I definitely think that if that line is hers, it's going to be 90% hostile... And I'm going to hate it because it does seem like a cruel comment if it's delivered with a lot of hostility...

I don't think it sounds hostile.  It's more a complaint against Carrie, not Oliver.  It sounds snarky and I'm sure it will be said to Oliver but there's nothing negative directed at him. 

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

I was wondering if maybe it's something Felicity actually says to Carrie rather than to Oliver?

Could be a half and half thing.  Like she says the crazy ex girlfriend part to Carrie and the without any of the fun parts to Oliver? 

 

I think it's more likely just to Oliver but yeah, I could see it. 

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bijoux

bijoux

If Felicity is involved in any stunts in the scene(s) they were shooting yesterday, it won't be with Oliver. SA did a Facebook live video from Palm Springs so he obviously wasn't on the set. He also did a two truths and a lie thing - there's a mention of an ark (or arc, I don't know), Alex is nowhere to be seen and Oliver leaves the island.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

PLEASE let Oliver leave the island in the flashbacks.  It's the first thing that's given me any hope for the flashbacks since Constantine.  Also, please leave Poppy on the island when you leave. 

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bijoux

bijoux

If he does leave the island (sooner rather than later, since I was counting on him leaving at the end of the season anyhow), it would be pretty weird to take her along, only to bring her corpse back later in order to bury it there.

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SleepDeprived

SleepDeprived

(edited)
If Felicity is involved in any stunts in the scene(s) they were shooting yesterday, it won't be with Oliver. SA did a Facebook live video from Palm Springs so he obviously wasn't on the set. He also did a two truths and a lie thing - there's a mention of an ark (or arc, I don't know), Alex is nowhere to be seen and Oliver leaves the island.

 

That is an extreme closeup of SA in the FB live video. I actually leaned back from my laptop because SA's face (while lovely) was just way too in my face. Heh.

 

2 Truths: a) The ark mention--Probably related to Genesis since H.I.V.E.'s plan seems to be wiping the whole world (or just Starling City) and saving the chosen few in an ark of sorts (the underground cornfield?). Kinda like in the bible. b) Oliver leaves the island--'Cause he's finally going to Russia now. Probably.

 

A Lie: Alex is nowhere to be seen--I think we'll be seeing him again, either working with/joining H.I.V.E. so he can be "saved" or being an actual good guy who ends up trying to help but then becomes one of the casualties of Genesis.

Edited by SleepDeprived
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