Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Velocity23]

Team #GiveFelicitySmoakABreak

[jay741982]

Guys I have the perfect Bruce Springsteen song title for the Episode 22 Title: Dancing in the Dark or Darhk!

You're Welcome !

[Morrigan2575]

Hah! Funny.

I'm still hoping for Badlands or My City of Ruins

[jay741982]

Hah! Funny.

I'm still hoping for Badlands or My City of Ruins

Good choices! Now watch it be something different like My hometown, Brilliant disguise or I'm on Fire

[tv echo]

There's also these references to Monument Point in DC Comics as the new home of the JSA...

 

JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA: MONUMENT POINT [paperback]

Collecting issues #50-54! As Jay Garrick begins his term as mayor, the other members of the JSA try to settle into their new home, and Mr. Terrific attempts to deal with his shocking loss of intelligence.

http://www.dccomics.com/graphic-novels/justice-society-of-america-monument-point

The Justice Society of America find themselves dealing with issue personal and political after rebuilding Monument Point. As Jay Garrick begins his time as mayor of the city, the other members of the JSA try to settle into their new home and Mr. Terrific attempts to deal with his gradual loss of intelligence

http://www.amazon.com/Justice-Society-America-Monument-Point/dp/1401233686

First appearing in Justice Society #44, Monument Point served as the battle grounds for the new villain Scythe and the JSA.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/monument-point/4020-57224/

[tv echo]

MG's song pick for 420 was Genesis' "Land of Confusion" and now 421 is Billy Joel's "Got to Begin Again".  I think they apply to either Oliver or Darhk. Here are all of the song lyrics for "Got to Begin Again" ...

 

Well so here I am at the end of the road
Where do I go from here?
I always figured it would be like this
Still nothing seems to be quite clear

 

All the words have been spoken and the prophecy fulfilled
But I just can't decide where to go
Yes, it's been quite a day and I should go to sleep
But tomorrow I will wake up and I'll know

 

That I've got to begin again
Though I don't know how start
Yes, I've got to begin again
And it's hard

 

Well it's been quite a while since I lifted my head
And I'm sure the light will hurt my eyes
I see the way that I been spendin' my days
And reality has caught me by surprise

 

I was dreamin' of tomorrow so I sacrificed today
And it sure was a grand waste of time
And despite all the truth that's been thrown in my face
I just can't get you out of my mind

 

That I've got to begin again
Though I don't know how start
Yes, I've got to begin again
And it's hard

http://www.songlyrics.com/billy-joel/got-to-begin-again-lyrics/

Edited March 19, 2016 by tv echo

[TVHappy9463]

So Katie posted a pic on Instagram, it's her, Paul, Emily and Wiiah all at a funeral holding pink roses. She says "long days filming". Sorry for not posting link in on my mobile in Italy.

https://instagram.com/p/BDHOyULlSzn/ Here is the link.

[Primal Slayer]

It's already been cross examined yesterday. It's from S2.

[TVHappy9463]

Ok I Googled Moira's funeral because the pink roses looked familiar. And sure enough some of the elements of both photos line up. I think she is totally trolling https://www.google.com/search?q=moira+queen+funeral+scene&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=vin&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg-v-HjM3LAhVB8GMKHdR6CWAQ_AUICCgC&biw=375&bih=559#imgrc=owMblJnPaNFIiM%3A

It's already been cross examined yesterday. It's from S2.

Thanks Primal Slayer I read thru the thread and didn't see it mentioned. Was it in this thread or another.

[Chaser]

It was in the Social Media Thread.

 

A part of me is a bit surprised they didn't release the stills earlier to deflect from the grave talk.

[way2interested]

A part of me is a bit surprised they didn't release the stills earlier to deflect from the grave talk.

 

I am almost legitimately convinced that they just forgot about releasing the stills in general because of the hiatus. Meanwhile, Flash has its promo, promo photos and its comic preview all for Tuesday's episodes, along with the BvS promo with the cast. Unless CW believes that any of the photos are spoilerish, which is still strange since Marc released the most spoilery photo weeks ago that featured Oliver and Felicity getting married and Felicity walking again.

[looptab]

I think they're going to drop the photos next week before the episode. Maybe there will be some article about Laurel and DD, or they'll try and mine the wedding some more.

[Lokiberry]

Or maybe the network's being passive aggressive over who's in the grave. There's certainly been theories that the reason Laurel has lasted as long as she has is because KC has connections at CBS. Maybe WB/DC finally put their foot down over how she's casting a negative pall over a character that they might have movie plans for, and pulled the plug. CBS is butthurt about it, and so the CW is treating Arrow even more like a second class citizen than usual.

 

My own personal theory is that the WB/DC and CBS have been at odds over KC/Laurel for a long time, possibly since the pilot, and that's why the character has been handled in such a schizophrenic way.

[Chaser]

I tend to believe the PR team from Arrow just sucks. Whatever intern was in charge of releasing the content, dropped the ball and everyone went "whatever, let's see what The Flash is doing."

[Primal Slayer]

Cbs has nothing to do with Arrow. It's a Wb production, they call the shots on anything to do with Arrow. Only thing CW has to do is keep a somewhat even number of CBS/WB productions. Ak/Gb always seemed to be more pro KC/LL as opposed to MG who didn't seem to have as close of a relationship with her.

[Velocity23]

Nope AK was the one who was always in KCs corner. Until s4 and after she stoped being a part of the team of AKs wife. She represented both DP and KC.

And KC had a contract with CBS and they insisted on KC being cast.

[Primal Slayer]

I doubt if she had a contract with CBS, it could've affected a WB prodcution, they would've gotten her on something that they had ownership of, not the other way around. Katie went from a WB production (Supernatural) to a CBS production (Harpers Island/Melrose Place) to back2back WB productions (Gossip Girl/Arrow) 

[looptab]

The part of AK's wife is unclear to me. Were they working together before Arrow? Or did they start when KC was cast?

[statsgirl]

I lost faith in MG's title picks when "This is Your Sword" had absolutely nothing in common with the lyrics of the song.

 

I think Tom Amandes but only in a future season. There's really too much going on right now to do him justice.

 

I wonder if NMcD will be back next season, He's been a great villain and if I were the EPs, I'd be reluctant to lose him.

 

Yes, you and I both know that she's irreplaceable for many reasons, but we both love Felicity and OTA and put more thought into why they work so well on the show. But to the general audience she's a tech girl+love interest. And having her not be part of the team for five months, not just an episode or two, with someone else taking her place as the team continues to fight crime, validates the theory that well, she's just the love interest, and/or they don't need her skills. 

I agree.

It's interesting that she stayed helping Team Arrowless while Oliver left to find himself and the reaction is "Felicity lied to Oliver about working for the Team so it's okay that Oliver lied to her about William."  The writers really have to bend over backwards to justify that Felicity is more than IT/love interest.

 

They use a color code for  script revisions: look here  http://kb.finaldraft.com/article/1001/884/

There are colours set for 16 revisions.  That would be a hellish project to work on.

[Primal Slayer]

DD doesn't need to survive another season or if he does, maybe only show up very sparringly. We don't need another Malcolm Merlyn on our hands just because they enjoy the actor. 

[Velocity23]

KC didnt get a main role on GG or SPN. But she did have a main role on Harper Island and MP. Both CBS productions. Why would a network support KC in getting the lead female role on Arrow if she didnt already have a contract. She got to practically choose the pilot she wanted.

[statsgirl]

I'd be on board for killing MM and keeping DD for another season, as long as he doesn't get magic again.

 

Or killing DD and keeping MM even.  Although if they keep MM, they really have to stop pretending that he's just a misunderstood good guy. 
They have to have a really ruthless, evil guy each season and I don't want it to be Felicity's father.

[Primal Slayer]

KC was originally going to be upped to a regular on SPN before things changed budget wise. If anything she had a contract with TheCW since if she did have a contract with CBS, she can't have her pick of any WB project, they owe nothing to her.

[wonderwall]

Maybe all this contract talk should go to the BTS thread?

[Velocity23]

Yeah because CBS has no influence on the CW at all. From what i heard the pickup of Arrow stood on the line.

[Morrigan2575]

I vote for "Kill MM and keep DD". However, they need to keep him depowered getting his magic back just makes the fights too predictable

KC was originally going to be upped to a regular on SPN before things changed budget wise. If anything she had a contract with TheCW since if she did have a contract with CBS, she can't have her pick of any WB project, they owe nothing to her.

Please, there was no budget issue, KC was fired from SPN. At the time she used the BS line that she requested to be let out of her contract to go do Harper's Island and Krikpe cited budget for why they fired her. Standard Hollywood crap, they always cite budget. Whedon did the same thing in S5 of Angel, they fired Charisma for "budgetary" reasons but anyone who paid attention knew exactly why she was fired.

I have no idea why they fired her but, I'm guessing it's the same reason Arrow fired her.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[wonderwall]

My vote is kill MM keep depowered DD, but also bring in a new villain next season, preferably the leader of HIVE. 

Edited March 19, 2016 by wonderwall

[Velocity23]

My vote is have a fight to the death between Malcolm, Slade and DD on Lian Yu.

[Primal Slayer]

I vote for "Kill MM and keep DD". However, they need to keep him depowered getting his magic back just makes the fights too predictable

Please, there was no budget issue, KC was fired from SPN. At the time she used the BS line that she requested to be let out of her contract to go do Harper's Island and Krikpe cited budget for why they fired her. Standard Hollywood crap, they always cite budget. Whedon did the same thing in S5 of Angel, they fired Charisma for "budgetary" reasons but anyone who paid attention knew exactly why she was fired.

I have no idea why they fired her but, I'm guessing it's the same reason Arrow fired her.

Joss was fairly upfront with his shitty answer to get rid of Charisma, he said that he felt as if they had told all they could tell with Cordelia instead of trying to do budget reasons. Budget reasons for Supernatural was believable imo since they spent so long with only 2 main cast members, getting a third who was a woman probably not ideal to them, that show isn't exactly known for how they treat their female characters either. 

[Morrigan2575]

Joss was fairly upfront with his shitty answer to get rid of Charisma, he said that he felt as if they had told all they could tell with Cordelia instead of trying to do budget reasons. Budget reasons for Supernatural was believable imo since they spent so long with only 2 main cast members, getting a third who was a woman probably not ideal to them, that show isn't exactly known for how they treat their female characters either.

OK 1) they did cite budget as a reason they got rid of CC, in fact it was heavily implied that they had to free up the budget to bring Spike/JM onto Angel. 2)you really bought that BS line about taking the character as far as they could? LOL. CC was fired for getting knocked up. There were also other issues that I learned recently that predated the pregnancy but, yeah she was fired for BTS reasons. Creative reasons, budget, the character reached the end of their story are ALL bullshit Hollywood PR reasons that cover the reality.

2) the budget reason for SPN was again bullshit becuase they replaced KC (an unknown actress) with an actress that just came off a staring role in a4 season long ABC Family drama (Wildfire). Yeah, I'm supposed to buy budget after they dumped KC and LC (remember the other female actress that stared in S3 of SPN?) and replaced KC with a higher paid actress and brought in Mischa Collins as a major recurring character.

So yeah, budget cut totally makes sense, yep, uh-huh.

PS - I noticed you didn't even bother to address KCs spin that she wasn't fired, she asked to be let out because she wanted to do Harper's Island. Nor the fact that a couple of years ago she finally admitted the truth that she wss fired from SPN.

ETA: And I'm done becuase this is way off topic already.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[wonderwall]

An interesting post regarding "Monument Point" and how it ties into the comic... This person argues that Monument Point is in essence, an episode of rebuilding and an episode where Oliver will become Mayor... 

 

http://oliverdant.tumblr.com/post/141311926638/arrow-ep-4x21-monument-point-dc-easter-eggs

[FurryFury]

CC was fired for getting knocked up.

 

That's not quite true (she's far from an innocent angel), but I think we've discussed it enough on this board, so it's time to let this issue go.

 

Personally, I'm 99% sure that MM is the one to kill Laurel, the writers have an obvious hard-on for the character, which is a shame. I guess my ex-husband was right to drop the show back when they've resurrected that character, it was the beginnning of the end.

[statsgirl]

I just can't take Jay Garrick seriously with that stupid helmet.  Are they trying to prove Diggle's isn't so bad?

 

I feel like having Oliver really be mayor is like having his son on the show -- a great idea in theory but impossible to put into practice on a TV show.

 

The line "taking the character as far as they could" is almost inevitable producer-speak for "I don't care about this character any more and want to play with new toys" but in Laurel's case, it might just be true.

[Morrigan2575]

An interesting post regarding "Monument Point" and how it ties into the comic... This person argues that Monument Point is in essence, an episode of rebuilding and an episode where Oliver will become Mayor...

http://oliverdant.tumblr.com/post/141311926638/arrow-ep-4x21-monument-point-dc-easter-eggs

Wouldn't be shocked

[wonderwall]

I just can't take Jay Garrick seriously with that stupid helmet.  Are they trying to prove Diggle's isn't so bad?

 

I feel like having Oliver really be mayor is like having his son on the show -- a great idea in theory but impossible to put into practice on a TV show.

 

The line "taking the character as far as they could" is almost inevitable producer-speak for "I don't care about this character any more and want to play with new toys" but in Laurel's case, it might just be true.

 

I'm really curious how Oliver being mayor is going to be weaved into the show. Because unlike the kid, being Mayor isn't just a plot point to cause drama. And because Oliver is the lead of the show, I hope that the writers will put more thought and screen time and effort into Oliver being mayor. It could be an interesting new aspect of him. See him take charge and give hope to the city without a mask on. 

 

I also think that the writers -- bar Keto Shimizu -- never really cared for Laurel which is why they've always made her say or do the most nonsensical things. I don't know, I feel like they felt obligated to keep her around with the way they've written her. I'm glad the writers are getting rid of an aspect they don't like on the show because now they can focus on aspects they DO like. 

Wouldn't be shocked

 

Also I know we have to take Marc's Billy Joel song choices with a grain of salt, but he DID choose Got to Begin Again for this episode which reinforces the whole 'rebuilding' theme...

[ComicFan777]

 

Also I know we have to take Marc's Billy Joel song choices with a grain of salt, but he DID choose Got to Begin Again for this episode which reinforces the whole 'rebuilding' theme...

 

If the rebuild starts in 4.21, then does that mean that the Genesis project and fighting the big bad is over in a single episode (4.20)?  That would feel less than epic for a battle.  Do you think there is more to HIVE or is the last few episodes are focused on Malcolm? 

Edited March 19, 2016 by ComicFan777

[SmallScreenDiva]

A part of me is a bit surprised they didn't release the stills earlier to deflect from the grave talk.

 

Not sure they really want to deflect from the grave talk. I mean the character is getting more buzz these days than she ever had before. I doubt the wedding photos are going to generate more buzz since folks online probably already suspect the wedding is not real anyway.

[wonderwall]

If the rebuild starts in 4.21, then does that mean that the Genesis project and fighting the big bad is over in a single episode (4.20)?  That would feel less than epic for a battle.  Do you think there is more to HIVE or is the last few episodes are focused on Malcolm? 

 

I have no clue... I'm guessing the Genesis project is revealed in 420, and TA destroys it in the middle of 421, and the rebuilding starts towards the end? I'm not really sure. But then that leaves 422-423 and I don't really know what the writers can come up with other than setting the stage for S5 if they destroy the Genesis Project by 421... I really hope there isn't a lot of exposition in 422-423 though because that would be kind of boring

[Primal Slayer]

OK 1) they did cite budget as a reason they got rid of CC, in fact it was heavily implied that they had to free up the budget to bring Spike/JM onto Angel. 2)you really bought that BS line about taking the character as far as they could? LOL. CC was fired for getting knocked up. There were also other issues that I learned recently that predated the pregnancy but, yeah she was fired for BTS reasons. Creative reasons, budget, the character reached the end of their story are ALL bullshit Hollywood PR reasons that cover the reality.

2) the budget reason for SPN was again bullshit becuase they replaced KC (an unknown actress) with an actress that just came off a staring role in a4 season long ABC Family drama (Wildfire). Yeah, I'm supposed to buy budget after they dumped KC and LC (remember the other female actress that stared in S3 of SPN?) and replaced KC with a higher paid actress and brought in Mischa Collins as a major recurring character.

So yeah, budget cut totally makes sense, yep, uh-huh.

PS - I noticed you didn't even bother to address KCs spin that she wasn't fired, she asked to be let out because she wanted to do Harper's Island. Nor the fact that a couple of years ago she finally admitted the truth that she wss fired from SPN.

ETA: And I'm done becuase this is way off topic already.

I know Charismas pregnancy played a big role in getting rid of the character, never said it didn't, just that he gave more reasons apart from "budget", thus the shitty comment. 

 

And Supernatural could've easily been both them originally offering Katie a full time part on the show, taking it back and offering her a reoccurring guest spot that she already was doing and her turning them down and deciding to move on. Either way she left the show either on her own accord or theirs. As far as bringing in an actress that cost more? Haven't heard that one before but ok. 

[wonderwall]

I know Charismas pregnancy played a big role in getting rid of the character,

 

Wayyyyyy off topic here but I thought you said "Christmas' pregnancy" and was confused for a solid 1 minute :p

[BkWurm1]

I think the rebuilding will be about personal lives more than the city. Quentin after Laurel dies and hopefully Oliver and Felicity edging their way back together.

[wonderwall]

I think the rebuilding will be about personal lives more than the city. Quentin after Laurel dies and hopefully Oliver and Felicity edging their way back together.

 

Sort of like Team Arrow helping themselves before they help others/ save the city... I like that!

[ComicFan777]

I wonder if the rebuild might refer to both Oliver being elected as mayor and Felicity starting to build the foundations of Justice League in the midst of Team Arrow trying to figure out how to take down the rest of HIVE...maybe Genesis has been foiled and DD is put in the ARGUS supermax in 4.21, but then HIVE is still being run by other HIVE members and maybe being manipulated by Malcolm...then the remainder of the season is taking down the other prominent HIVE members with Malcolm escaping at the end of the season. 

 

I think it might be cool if Felicity's project is setting up a network of superheroes like Justice League, then Malcolm has been behind the scenes setting up a legion of supervillains (breaking the Calculator out of prison over the summer and recruiting him as the anti-Felicity on his team) - set up for season 5...maybe something like Justice League vs Legion of Doom.

Edited March 19, 2016 by ComicFan777

[wonderwall]

I think it might be cool if Felicity's project is setting up a network of superheroes like Justice League, then Malcolm has been behind the scenes setting up a legion of supervillains (breaking the Calculator out of prison over the summer and recruiting him as the anti-Felicity on his team) - set up for season 5...maybe something like Justice League vs Legion of Doom.

 

I can already hear the cry of thousands of comic book purists 

[BkWurm1]

I wonder if the rebuild might refer to both Oliver being elected as mayor and Felicity starting to build the foundations of Justice League in the midst of Team Arrow trying to figure out how to take down the rest of HIVE...maybe Genesis has been foiled and DD is put in the ARGUS supermax in 4.21, but then HIVE is still being run by other HIVE members and maybe being manipulated by Malcolm...then the remainder of the season is taking down the other prominent HIVE members with Malcolm escaping at the end of the season. 

 

I think it might be cool if Felicity's project is setting up a network of superheroes like Justice League, then Malcolm has been behind the scenes setting up a legion of supervillains (breaking the Calculator out of prison over the summer and recruiting him as the anti-Felicity on his team) - set up for season 5...maybe something like Justice League vs Legion of Doom.

Well, it really was Chloe aka Watchtower in Smallville that organized the JL into something functional, so why not continue the trend with someone else that is the hero to the heroes?

I could get behind that being what Felicity wants to build. Let heroes share resources and knowledge and the occasional satellite uplink. In a way she's already done that.

I can already hear the cry of thousands of comic book purists

Sounds like beautiful music. ;)

[Morrigan2575]

To be honest, I'd rather Felicity's new personal project be totally unrelated to Team Arrow or heroes.

[ComicFan777]

I think the benefit of setting up a legion of supervillains would be less emphasis on Malcolm, since there would be a group of supervillains wreaking havoc.  Malcolm being the main big bad next season seems meh to me.

[wonderwall]

To be honest, I'd rather Felicity's new personal project be totally unrelated to Team Arrow or heroes.

 

One thing I was annoyed with Ray about last season was not mass producing those nanites which could help save millions of people... So I really hope Felicity finds a way to make those chips available to people who need it. 

[ComicFan777]

The reason I think a Justice League setup might be cool is that I would rather have superheroes dropping by as guest stars in episodes like Vixen instead of having Arrow take the time to create more superheroes on the show like the Atom.  The writers have always used Arrow as the launch of new heroes. If instead, the heroes are already made (outside of the show) and they are just lending a helping hand in a current case, then we don't have too much propping - just teamwork.  Felicity has always been a hero whisperer, so networking seems like a good next step.  It would also be a good way for Felicity to expand her role in finding a way to protect the ones she loves by making everyone work together.

 

My main concern that if Felicity has a personal project such as medical inventions to help people, it might move her story away from the main story too much.  She would be creating her own Palmer island if she invests too much time in it.  It does make sense though if her next move is to making these medical inventions more accessible to the general public, I just worry about the her isolation from the main storyline if most of her screentime is dedicated to this.

Edited March 20, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Sunshine]

I think the benefit of setting up a legion of supervillains would be less emphasis on Malcolm, since there would be a group of supervillains wreaking havoc.  Malcolm being the main big bad next season seems meh to me.

They have already started a loose legion of supervillains.  Malcolm helped restore Vandal Savage in 4.08.  In 4.18 Malcolm is going to break Darhk out of jail. (I wonder if he actual kills Laurel or if his machinations just result in her heroic death similar to Tommy's.) H.I.V.E may have cut ties with Darhk since he gets beat up in 4.16.  

 

If Malcolm is the "him" referenced in the flash forward and Oliver ends up killing him before the end of the season, what's the likelihood that Vandal shows up in 4.23 to revive Malcolm?  Afterall, he owes him one. It might be a reason for Sara and Ray to return to 2016 for an episode.  (This is my biggest fear.  They kill Malcolm but the death doesn't stick.  There was spec that because LOT is ending a week before Flash/Arrow that the characters might be on their respective shows.) 

 

Monument Point-If it's a military base, it is possible that this is where the Diggles get wallopped in the back half of S4.  WM said something about that happening in one of her interviews.