Spoiler Discussion Thread

[lemotomato]

Hmm. Response to the commotion caused by CG's tweets, maybe?

[Chaser]

I'm surprised WH could post that.

 

I'm assuming Diggle is a witness and not on trail. 

[lemotomato]

If they're prosecuting DD, Diggle could be testifying about getting abducted in 409

Edited January 27, 2016 by lemotomato

[bijoux]

I went through Laura Hurley's tweets and this is some additional info I found on 4x11:

• a great character episode
• MVP goes to EBR
• the performances (plural) in the hallucination scenes are fantastic
• she liked how Felicity got her codename, though not one of the lines about it

[BkWurm1]

David Ramsey sounded like he was absolutely just playing the speculation game.  Even if he knew at that moment (because I think they would have only just recently found out given the time table) I think he was sharing what he had been thinking in response to episode 4-10 so yeah, I don't think it eliminates Lance at all.  And if he DOES know, he could have been throwing up smoke so it seemed like a surprise when Lance actually does die.  But his reasoning was off because, again, if Malcolm is the one that kills someone, it doesn't matter how close Felicity is to that person since she hates Malcolm and even if it is only DD that is the "he" that must be killed, if her mom's heart is broken when Lance dies, Felicity is going to be upset and furious on her mom's behalf so her level of emotion makes sense.     

 

 

Tbh I don't think they would have Felicity leave this season or have them still be broken up at the end of the season.They might do something like that at some point but the fact that they're breaking up in 4.15 makes me think they're following the usual pattern of angst in the middle of the season and resolution at the end.If they did the break up in like episode 4.20 I would think a hiatus apart would be likely.

 

 

 

 I would be more optimistic about a reconciliation before the end of the season except that with the big death, there doesn't seem to be time for it to happen.  (I'd like to be wrong and this show does run their relationship on just about the fastest timeline ever so I won't rule it out) 

 

Even if they do get them back together, we still have perhaps another 3 seasons of the show runners messing with our heads and not wanting their characters happy (even if it would IMO probably make most of the viewers happy - shippers and nonshipppers -since the early season lack of relationship drama was VERY well received IMO by everyone - but MG is in charges so...). So if Olicity is endgame and 95% of the time I think it is, then there is a certain logic in doing some serious stalling and not even having them around each other over the summer would help.  A lot. 

 

I started speculation on Felicity leaving at the end of the season simply because no couple gets to stay a couple without breaking up at least once and initially, I was trying to figure out a way to break them up without really breaking them up since I never expected them to make Oliver so stupid as to lie to her (Glad SA agrees).  I figured they could pull something that created some misunderstanding where when she's gone everyone assumes she left over a break up even if she didn't intend to go through with a break up.  

 

Then in the fall when the show returns, there could be a rescue but for "reasons" they could even have Felicity and Oliver agree to reset their relationship back to pre-dating status for a while and go back to "moments" while the show focuses on something else and then the show would spend that season moving them closer again but with more "reasons" to stall them actually getting serious again.  If the show is to last only until season 7, then a season 6 wedding would fit the timeline better but I have no freaking idea what they would do if they thought it likely that the show will just go on and on like Supernatural.  Predicting what they plan with the relationship is hard because they move so freaking fast with it.  Faster than anything I've experienced on other shows (but every time that worries me, I remind myself that Oliver wouldn't be in this deep if it was a placeholder until they revert to canon).   So yeah, my guessing game for what they have in store may not be on point at all.  

I'd much prefer Olicity being broken up at the end of S4 then a last minute reconciliation like S3 (I freaking hated that reunion and hated that Felicity left with him).  However, I don't know if I believe Felicity is the one to leave at the end of S4, need more information than what we've gotten so far.

 

More information is key.  My guess wasn't based on anything we've learned this season, just stall tactics and the fact that it seemed like her turn to pull an Oliver.  Maybe though it's Diggle's turn instead.  Maybe that comment about his worry over raising baby Sara in Star City  was throwaway but it felt like foreshadowing to me.  

 

So maybe instead of Felicity going, they will again give us a happy summer but make it seem like the OTA will never be again. 

 

Honestly, I'm still waiting for someone to get amnesia.  Maybe season six.  ;p

Edited January 27, 2016 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Really? Because I would think it's completely rational and would be 100% in character for someone like Felicity. If I were in her shoes and my fiance withheld the fact that he was willing to marry me without telling me I'd be an instant stepmom I'd be beyond livid. IMO, that's not even remotely like Oliver withholding the fact that he's working with Malcolm to save the city. Oliver lying about the existence of a kid directly impacts Felicity and her relationship with him. I'd be disappointed if she isn't hard on him about such a thing.

BM isn't allowing OQ to be the father at all. He is just being allowed to meet the child. The BM said that even William is not going to be allowed to know that OQ is his father. So in no way is FS being asked or drafted to be a step mother at any time. If OQ was planning on being a father to the child, and the BM was allowing it then it would be a whole other scenario. So other than random times when BM allows OQ to visit in whatever capacity as BM deems, it is not going to impact FS's day to day life.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree :) It's a big withholding. For me, him withholding that he was planning to die after 320 while secretly working with MM was bigger. Here she thought they would be together once OQ fought the LoA and they toasted to an "us", meanwhile he was planning a suicide mission. Plus the whole poisoning in the cell for me was a big problem. Having a kid he may never see again is the small in comparison to other stuff.

 

But I'm sure in the coming years we will get more of them from OQ for plot, so this is only the tip of the iceberg. IRL, things would be different. But with these writers and their tendencies, the audience & FS are going to have to learn to accept a lot of things for plot purposes that we would be hesitant to accept IRL. Otherwise, they will break-up every season for plot and frankly that sounds horrible to watch. Personally, I don't think its going to come down to him withholding about his child, I think it's going to be more a combination of the BMD and his inability to prioritize being there for her/them in their relationship. I think he's only going to get more tunneled vision on DD & revenge and not be there when she is struggling with her new "paralysis".

[kismet]

Oh MG, how I hate you so.  The paralysis storyline is "lighter" because Felicity isn't sobbing and crying?  Fuck off!  This show will continue to suck as long as he's involved in any capacity.  Please invest your time and energy in LoT, because I have no intention of watching that show.  Ugh, this man is like the Laurel Lance of EPs.  He ruins everything!  

Seriously, bile in my throat after reading his comment. Just because someone is not sobbing or crying does not mean the subject matter is "lighter". Paralysis temporary or permanent is a serious & dark situation, regardless of the hows & the whys. Even if she cried during that it would be appropriate. Frankly, I don't even remember her crying that much in s3, but perhaps it was because they were "killing" OQ off every other week - might make some people emotional.

 

Dontchaknow paralysis is all super fun times?! Cuz, like, you don't have to walk anymore? While I appreciate not having to watch all doom and gloom, I really hope MG is misrepresenting this story line, because I can't even put into words the level of grossness I feel over taking paralysis lightly. 

Loved your post!! I don't ever wish ill on people... but there is part of me that wants MG to suffer an injury that impedes his mobility for a short amount of time and see if its "lighter" because he doesn't get scripted to cry. It's still a dark storyline even if someone is strong and fighting through the struggle with or without tears. Perhaps he could break a leg and be wheelchair bound, requiring assistance and modification of his lifestyle and see just how great it all is because he is taking it in stride. His words and most likely his treatment of this paralysis is why I feel this show has taken a serious drop in taste level. Cheesy & crappy plot writing is one thing, misrepresentation of a serious medical condition for the sake of plotty gimmicks is whole other situation.

[kismet]

I think this time around, whoever it is will be told to STAY QUIET, but there's some things they can't control, like paps catching actors leaving Van and not coming back, for example.

I wonder if the actor is also getting PAID to stay quiet this time around. If these people still have a contract, I'm sure the teams can negotiate some type of moneys to keep people quiet.

Edited January 27, 2016 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

If the one in the grave is PB, we're going to have a hard time tracking him on SM since he not only isn't in every episode, but he often only has a short amount of screen time.  Even Roy had more time on screen.  Paul could be on vacation for three weeks and still be doing the show.   

Edited January 27, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Belinea]

Well, I don't care how they hide it or try to hide it. As long as Diggle is still going to be accounted for, I could really care less at this point. 

[looptab]

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree :) It's a big withholding. For me, him withholding that he was planning to die after 320 while secretly working with MM was bigger. Here she thought they would be together once OQ fought the LoA and they toasted to an "us", meanwhile he was planning a suicide mission. Plus the whole poisoning in the cell for me was a big problem. Having a kid he may never see again is the small in comparison to other stuff.

 

I'm sorry to butt in, but that's not what was happening at all. She had no idea he intended to fight the League of Assassins. She was under the assumption that he had traded his life in order to save Thea's, hence the drugging and last-minute desperate escape attempt. 

 

I agree with @Numbercruncher, I can understand the lie about the secret alliance with Malcolm because that was usual Oliver trying to save the city/fight the League/whatever, but the BM lie it's a lie that affects their personal lives and their relationship, no matter whether he is actually being a father to the kid or not.

 

But this is not spoilers thread material, so I'll leave it.

Edited January 27, 2016 by looptab

[kismet]

I'm sorry to butt in, but that's not what was happening at all. She had no idea he intended to fight the League of Assassins. She was under the assumption that he had traded his life in order to save Thea's, hence the drugging and last-minute desperate escape attempt.

I agree with @Numbercruncher, I can understand the lie about the secret alliance with Malcolm because that was usual Oliver trying to save the city/fight the League/whatever, but the BM lie it's a lie that affects their personal lives and their relationship, no matter whether he is actually being a father to the kid or not.

But this is not spoilers thread material, so I'll leave it.

Either way he lied to her about everything regarding LoA for plot and she forgave him for plot. I predict the same pattern for seasons to come with these writers.

[Chaser]

 

I went through Laura Hurley's tweets and this is some additional info I found on 4x11:

• a great character episode
• MVP goes to EBR
• the performances (plural) in the hallucination scenes are fantastic
• she liked how Felicity got her codename, though not one of the lines about it

 

She said the flashbacks were Refreshing. I laughed because I'm betting its going to involve Oliver and water. 

 

She also said that she felt Diggle and Felicity's stories were by and large respected.

[bijoux]

The flashbacks are Dig and Andy in Afghanistan. So not the standstill at the island and thus refreshing.

[nksarmi]

BM isn't allowing OQ to be the father at all. He is just being allowed to meet the child. The BM said that even William is not going to be allowed to know that OQ is his father. So in no way is FS being asked or drafted to be a step mother at any time. If OQ was planning on being a father to the child, and the BM was allowing it then it would be a whole other scenario. So other than random times when BM allows OQ to visit in whatever capacity as BM deems, it is not going to impact FS's day to day life.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree :) It's a big withholding. For me, him withholding that he was planning to die after 320 while secretly working with MM was bigger. Here she thought they would be together once OQ fought the LoA and they toasted to an "us", meanwhile he was planning a suicide mission. Plus the whole poisoning in the cell for me was a big problem. Having a kid he may never see again is the small in comparison to other stuff.

 

But I'm sure in the coming years we will get more of them from OQ for plot, so this is only the tip of the iceberg. IRL, things would be different. But with these writers and their tendencies, the audience & FS are going to have to learn to accept a lot of things for plot purposes that we would be hesitant to accept IRL. Otherwise, they will break-up every season for plot and frankly that sounds horrible to watch. Personally, I don't think its going to come down to him withholding about his child, I think it's going to be more a combination of the BMD and his inability to prioritize being there for her/them in their relationship. I think he's only going to get more tunneled vision on DD & revenge and not be there when she is struggling with her new "paralysis".

 

I so agree.  I know they weren't technically together and certainly not engaged in season three, but not only did she forgive him for some of the shittiest stuff he has ever done (including working with MM in a very big way) - she drove off into the sunset with him when she was the VP of Palmer Tech.  I mean, that's huge levels of "whatevs!  love u!  let's go make googlie eyes at each other!"

 

Now I totally understand if this break up was more about a cumulative effect of his lies and withholding - but for that to ring true to me, I think he must do something with MM again.  That's why I don't think this is just BM lie - it's BM lie combined with him either sneaking off to see said child behind her back (which I really hope is not the case) or lie plus partnering up with Malcolm instead of Nyssa or something like that.  Then it's all going to blow up in his face when Malcolm kills someone close to them.

 

I'd rather Felicity be furious at him that he isn't going to try to be a father to the child than she's mad he didn't tell her about it.

[looptab]

I wonder at what point they decide to bring Andy at Argus- if it happens during this episode, or they start the ep with him being there already?

[bijoux]

I wonder at what point they decide to bring Andy at Argus- if it happens during this episode, or they start the ep with him being there already?

I imagine it's during the episode. There needs to be an explanation for it, not just a shrug and, 'Oh, we dropped him off with Waller' at the beginning. Neither Dig nor Oliver trust her (with good reason) so there needs to be an explanation in the ep why he's moved.

[Chaser]

The flashbacks are Dig and Andy in Afghanistan. So not the standstill at the island and thus refreshing.

Head to desk. I totally forgot about the Dig flashbacks. Yep, refreshing. Lol

[bijoux]

From Laura Hurley's Tumblr:

A reporter said that he appreciates the quiet moments and there are alot of them in 4x11. Does that mean its a filler episode or does stuff happen to push the story foward? Is damien in the episode?

There are a lot of quiet moments, but I wouldn’t call it a filler episode. A lot happened on the character front that I expect will carry forward in the rest of the season. As somebody who prefers nuanced characterization to crazy plot twists, I found that 4x11 was a pretty fantastic episode.

 

 

Did you personally think this episode is on par with 4x06 or even better?

I’m actually going to rank 4x11 above 4x06. I loved 4x06, but I really appreciated the greater balance of focus in 4x11. Aside from a couple of moments and one very specific line that I didn’t overly enjoy, 4x11 will probably go down as one of my favorite episodes of Arrow.

 

 

Will Dyla and Lyla fans enjoy 4x11?

Only if they like character development. :)

 

 

Curious, who says the line that annoys you? Just preparing myself thoroughly.

Oliver.

I don’t blame him, though. It was writing that was trying to be clever and just didn’t work for me.

 

 

 

Hi!! I am not great fan of LL and literally hate LOLiver. So, will I enjoy this episode? Thank you!

I expect so!

 

 

 

Hey!! Is Laurel and Oliver sparring session any good?

It was better than I expected based on how it started.

 

 

And my favorite:

You said you're answering questions about the episode so this is fair game. On a scale of 1-10 how good/sexually charged was the Laurel/Oliver sparring scene. I bet it showed the chemistry that they have & I can t wait to see you shippers lose your mind. So much for Laurel not being a threat. I also love that it shows how much respect the writers have for Olishitty which is ZERO. Laurel will be there to support him. He's will realize that Laurel is his one true love. Lauriver is on the rise.

My God. This might be my favorite ask that I’ve ever gotten in my time on Tumblr. Seriously. Thank you, Anon.

You’ve lumped me in with the “shippers” who are going to lose their minds about the episode, and yet you’ve clearly been checking out my posts on Twitter about 4x11 in which I’ve expressed how much I enjoyed the episode. You can’t have it both ways, friend.

I really enjoyed how your question escalated almost alarmingly quickly from a query to a theory to gloating that you came out on top in a scene that you have not yet seen. I commend you for your optimism.

All of that said, I did say that I’m answering questions and yours is indeed fair game for one of my vague answers.

I’ll carefully say that the Laurel/Oliver scene went better than I expected based on how the conversation between them started. It does feature the same amount of chemistry between them as they’ve maintained since 1x01, so I expect that you’ll be pleased with it.

 

 

[Morrigan2575]

Soooo, no chemistry then?  LOL

[Sakura12]

I'm going to guess that scene starts with Laurel saying something hypocritical and/or something about how Oliver doesn't treat her like an equal or help her learn to get better. Oliver is resigned and doesn't want to argue with her and picks some pads so she can hit them.

[dtissagirl]

HAHAHAHA I'm so glad for anons.

[nksarmi]

The only thing I want to hear from Laurel in regards to sparing with Oliver is "I've trained with Nyssa, Sara, and Thea, so don't hold back. Let's go."

 

***In no way do I expect Laurel to be able to hold her own with Oliver (Thea can't do that unless she's in a blind pit-induced rage), but I would just appreciate recognition that off-camera training has been happening with three women who are better trained than she is.  I'll take tell rather than show when it comes to Laurel as long as they give me some reason to believe she's got her shit together!

Edited January 27, 2016 by nksarmi

[apinknightmare]

HAHAHAHA I'm so glad for anons.

 

Anons are basically worthless to me unless they really go balls-to-the-wall like this one did. A+

[Sakura12]

The only thing I want to hear from Laurel in regards to sparing with Oliver is "I've trained with Nyssa, Sara, and Thea, so don't hold back. Let's go."

 

***In no way do I expect Laurel to be able to hold her own with Oliver (Thea can't do that unless she's in a blind pit-induced rage), but I would just appreciate recognition that off-camera training has been happening with three women who are better trained than she is.  I'll take tell rather than show when it comes to Laurel as long as they give me some reason to believe she's got her shit together!

 

Sara looked like she was swatting a fly in her sparring scene with Laurel.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Arrow: David Ramsey Drops Big Hint about Oliver's Son, Talks Felicity's Paralysis

 

David mentioned a couple of things that had my eyebrows going up ...

 

His heart goes out to Felicity. As much as she's not available to the team as much as she used to be, it's much less of a logistical concern than it is an emotional concern.

 

She's not available to the team as much as she used to be? And people wonder why fans bristle at this storyline. Sure, give Felicity a storyline of her own, but also make sure it's one that keeps her away from the team, lessens her involvement because we need to take away a badass character so others don't look useless.

 

His advice to Oliver was, "Put the mission aside and give into the man, to the husband, to the lover and go be by her side." That will be his advice to him, but I'm betting you good money he won't listen.

 

 

Didn't Wendy Mericle in the last interview just say Oliver had learned his lesson in 4x10? Why am I not surprised. Ugh.

[Morrigan2575]

whiplash

[jay741982]

Fucking great! yes I really need to hear what sounds like Felicity isolated from the team again SMH. Gotta take Felicity away so fucking Laurel can be more of a ''Moral compass" PUKE. These fucking writers.

[Chaser]

They just shot the scene of Diggle finding out about the kid? They are filming 4x16 now and the BM was in 4x15. Does Oliver go off on his own in 4x15 or does everyone think its some random kid? I'm confused.

 

Also confused about how Felicity isn't as accessible. We know she is back in the Arrow Lair after this episode. Where is she supposed to be going? More time at PT? Maybe she isn't there as much because of her father? I don't know about this. 

 

Conflicting messages about Oliver.

[apinknightmare]

Doesn't it make sense that Felicity wouldn't be available as much in this ep since the preview made it pretty clear that she's not sure that she wants to go back? Obviously she does go back, but she *just* got paralyzed, so it seems natural to me that she'd be hesitant. As for DR's comments conflicting with WM's, I'll wait and see what happens in the ep before I get upset about it.

[Morrigan2575]

Assuming DR was talking only about 411 it make perfect sense.   

 

My whiplash comment was about WM's interview saying Oliver learned his lesson and DR's interview saying Oliver won't listen to Diggle telling him to put GA aside and focus on being there for Felicity.

[Chaser]

I wasn't even thinking about it in relation to just this episode. I was thinking about more of a rest of a season kind of thing. That makes me feel better.

[tangerine95]

I think he means not available in this episodes since we see she has issues with being on the team and is at the loft the whole time.I think that gets mostly resolved at the end of the episode and we know she's back at the arrow bunker in future episodes.About Oliver not being there i think he was talking about 4.10?Wendy said he's done being away and will be focused on her so I don't see a repeat of 4.10 happening.

[Primal Slayer]

So excited to see Laurel and Oliver training, bout time it happened, though I love training scenes in general. Laurel has certainly been stepping it up this season and if she isn't in the grave, I expect it will only get better.

[apinknightmare]

My whiplash comment was about WM's interview saying Oliver learned his lesson and DR's interview saying Oliver won't listen to Diggle telling him to put GA aside and focus on being there for Felicity.

 

Oh, I understood. I'll just wait and see because Oliver not listening to Diggle's advice doesn't mean he isn't there for Felicity. It could just mean that he tries to do both and doesn't completely abandon the mission to care for her (which I don't think Felicity would want him to do anyway). Totally not counting out Oliver being a dipshit, but I don't think this interview indicates either way. 

[Guest]

With regards to Felicity not being available to the team as much, I really hope DR is only talking about 411. I think he might be but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Guest

[Ann Mack]

Why in reading that interview I got the feeling that Diggle will indeed be the one who is understanding to the "supposed" difficult situation that BM put Oliver in. Ugh these writers. I will be glad when the writers stop sacrificing Felicity's potential in order to prop another character or sideline her to try and bolster another character. Any how bracing myself for what's to come. Not nearly excited about this back half as I should be but maybe just maybe things might change (doubt it highly with these dumb ass writers)

[Primal Slayer]

I'm pretty sure once Felicity faces down her personal demons, she will be back full time.

[apinknightmare]

With regards to Felicity not being available to the team as much, I really hope DR is only talking about 411. I think he might be but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

Since they give her a code name and put a ramp down in the lair, it's probably temporary. 

[Chaser]

Going off of the preview and this interview, I wonder if it's a situation where Oliver wants them to go to the Lair together and she doesn't but she does insist he go.

 

I can see Diggle being like What The Hell Are You Doing Here? and Oliver being at a loss.

 

Honestly if Hurley likes the episode, then I'm not that concerned about it.

[Guest]

Since they give her a code name and put a ramp down in the lair, it's probably temporary. 

 

I think so too. But using this to sideline her has always been my main worry with this storyline. So my first reaction is always NOPE. Haha.

[SmallScreenDiva]

God, I hope so. I hope it's just this episode and it's resolved by the end. I'm already pissed by the whole wheelchair story line in part because I suspect it's an "organic" way to keep Felicity away from the field. I feel like Guggenheim was running out of excuses.

[Chaser]

The wheelchair has always been about Oracle. She may not be getting the name, but they want her to have some of the story beats.

[Primal Slayer]

Unless Felicity was going to start fighting full time, I don't see what would make her go out in the field in the first place. And if she was there then who would be manning the computers and hacking?

[AyChihuahua]

The wheelchair has always been about Oracle. She may not be getting the name, but they want her to have some of the story beats.

For me it was mostly Oracle, a little Proxy, and a good bit to give Oliver a continuing excuse for not telling her. Quentin heart problems-style.

[tangerine95]

Idk that they would need to do a wheelchair storyline just to keep her out of the field.She already doesn't go unless they give her a reason to so I think they wouldn't have a problem just not writting plots that require her in the field.I really think they just think the wheelchair is a good way to give her a cruicible and an emotional storyline.I don't really agree though but I don't think they did it to sideline her.

[apinknightmare]

Unless Felicity was going to start fighting full time, I don't see what would make her go out in the field in the first place. And if she was there then who would be manning the computers and hacking?

 

She's been out in the field several times. She went undercover at the casino, she used herself as bait for the Dollmaker, she used herself as bait for Slade, she was out and about with the team in the S2 finale. Can't remember what she did in S3. I enjoyed that and I think other fans do too, and would like to see it again. I don't think this story has anything at all to do with them trying to avoid that though.

Edited January 27, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

Considering SA's comments at the Con about how Felicity is the same character and they are just treating it like a non-entity, I don't think they intend on sidelining.

 

I do hope that once Felicity gets her legs back they do work her into the field more. Not as a fighter of course, but something like the earlier seasons.

[Primal Slayer]

Doing things here and there yeah I can totally see, but I was mainly thinking of more of a fuller time of field work which wouldn't make much sense for her.

[Morrigan2575]

She's been out in the field several times. She went undercover at the casino, she used herself as bait for the Dollmaker, she used herself as bait for Slade, she was out and about with the team in the S2 finale. Can't remember what she did in S3. I enjoyed that and I think other fans do too, and would like to see it again. I don't think this story has anything at all to do with them trying to avoid that though.

S3 she went to the power plant to get info on that Metahuman in 319 and she went to Nanda Parbat with the rest of the group towards the end of S3.  She also rescued Oliver using the ATOM suit in 323