Spoiler Discussion Thread

[bijoux]

I'm really not clear on the timeline of the last episode. It could very well be four months from December when Felicity was shot, not four months from January when this episode aired.

 

Sa tweeted that they wereon their last day of filming 4x15 yesterday. That means we should get the title of 4x16 soon, doesn't it?

[looptab]

If the death is now four months from now, that would put it the last few episodes of the season, maybe 21? That's disappointing. I did not want this dragged out any further.

I wonder what the reason for the change was. I don't think I've seen the question brought up.

I don't think there's been a change, they just really suck at maths.

[bijoux]

I don't think it's impossible, I just think it's highly, highly unlikely.

Oh, I don't think for a second it will happen. But I am willing to give credit where credit is due.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, they did a piss poor job at explaining the timeline. When I was watching, I thought that we pretty much picked up where 4x09 left off - like it was one or two days after the shooting. I didn't get a sense that it had been longer than that, so IDK when this "four months from now" was supposed to have taken place. Four months from our now, or four months from theirs? Is their now our now? Or do they have to catch up with our now? Almost as headache-inducing as time travel.

[Velocity23]

The person in the grave will most likely be revealed in the episode just before a little break in April. Last year they went on a break after episode 3x18 on April 1st. Came back for on April 15th for episode 19th - 23th. We also got a nice 4-5 episode promo for the sweeps.

[bijoux]

I'm working on the assumption that they'll have caught up to our "now" by the next episode. That's also what Darhk's reprieve is for, so we know we haven't missed a confrontation with him in the time that will have passed between 4x10 and 4x11.

[Chaser]

I had assumed 4x10 would pick up right after 4x09 and then the show would would time jump with 4x11. That way the show stays real time.

But the timeline was wonky in 4x10. It seemed to pick up right after but at the same time it didn't. Multiple surgeries kind of indicates some time had past.

Could use some clarification EPs

[dtissagirl]

The problem is we have no idea how much time passed in between surgeries. Hell, we don't even know how many surgeries. So yeah, the episode felt like 1.5 day immediately after the shooting, but it could have been weeks passed in that opening montage scene of Oliver beating people up while he also stood in the ER with Felicity.

 

Oh, and here's a receipt, Wendy Mericle actively quoted as saying it's not Felicity in the grave:

 

The show easily could’ve kept viewers in the dark (no pun intended) about Felicity’s ultimate fate, but executive producer Wendy Mericle told Variety, “we wanted to put some questions to bed and raise the stakes about who it could be. We now know for sure that it’s not her, but that just shifts the focus to a whole host of other characters. We’re lucky to have a big ensemble and it’s still a big question mark, so we got a chance to have our cake and eat it too, and we took it.”

 

From the Variety article posted in SPOILERS ONLY - http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/arrow-felicity-alive-wheelchair-grave-dead-1201684452/

Edited January 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tarotx]

Time had passed. Felicity would have been on death's door from the blood loss. I say weeks have passed. Probably the large chunk of the episode took place no and not in December.

 

On a different note that Variety article interview with Wm confirms Felicity in the grave is off the table so I hope fans shut up with her still in the grave theories.

The show easily could’ve kept viewers in the dark (no pun intended) about Felicity’s ultimate fate, but executive producer Wendy Mericle told Variety, “we wanted to put some questions to bed and raise the stakes about who it could be. We now know for sure that it’s not her, but that just shifts the focus to a whole host of other characters. We’re lucky to have a big ensemble and it’s still a big question mark, so we got a chance to have our cake and eat it too, and we took it"

[bijoux]

Who do you think would be the best person to ask about thw timeline?

[tv echo]

From the EW interview with WM (in the Spoilers thread)...

Will we see other flash forwards that reveal more information about the cemetery scene? And are you basically saying that it’s going to happen in the finale?
We try to leave the timeline a little bit open. We went back and forth about what timeline that was. It’ll be close to the finale. Right now, the plans are not to have it in the finale, but we won’t be doing any more flash forwards going forward. We wanted to revisit that and have a little fun with the audience in terms of noting where Oliver and Felicity are, emotionally and physically — they’re in a limo outside the gravesite. We have no plans, at this point, to do anymore of those.

[dtissagirl]

Who do you think would be the best person to ask about thw timeline?

 

Guggenheim on Twitter? Or maybe the episode writers -- @ojbalderrama and @sarahtarkoff

 

It might be addressed in the next episode though.

[Chaser]

Sometimes it's frustrating when you can't apply basic logic to the show. Logically days should have past. Those surgeries would take time. The body would be so taxed it would need some recovery time between them. But it's Arrow, so maybe it was just a couple days.

WM said there weren't any immediate plans for more flash forwards. I know some of us speculated that Thea in the hospital would be a flash forward. It doesn't seem to be case. They put a target on Felicity at the start, moved it off of her and seemingly placed it on Diggle (I'm not even going to consider MamaSmoak because that doesn't fit at all IMO). It looks like Thea is up after him.

[looptab]

 

Oh, and here's a receipt, Wendy Mericle actively quoted as saying it's not Felicity in the grave:

 

 

From the Variety article posted in SPOILERS ONLY - http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/arrow-felicity-alive-wheelchair-grave-dead-1201684452/

 

 

On a different note that Variety article interview with Wm confirms Felicity in the grave is off the table so I hope fans shut up with her still in the grave theories.

Great! Phew!

[Sunshine]

Originally it was 6 months in show. The episode picked up basically where 409 ended (Dec) then time advanced based on multiple surgeries. I think that still puts us in Ep 19-20 range unless they have decided not to give the characters time to react. I still think MM is probably being set up to be S5 Big Bad

[Morrigan2575]

Originally it was 6 months in show. The episode picked up basically where 409 ended (Dec) then time advanced based on multiple surgeries. I think that still puts us in Ep 19-20 range unless they have decided not to give the characters time to react. I still think MM is probably being set up to be S5 Big Bad

WM seems to indicate in at least one interview that it's much closer to the finale then originally hinted at.  At least that's my takeaway from her interviews.  Sounds like it's now 421 or 422.

 

Also, since WM is being so cagey about the "he" in her interviews I don't see MM being set up for the S5 Big Bad.  I think the "he" in question is in fact Malcolm and they'll kill him off in the S4 finale.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Carrie Ann]

I'm really not clear on the timeline of the last episode. It could very well be four months from December when Felicity was shot, not four months from January when this episode aired.

 

Sometimes it's frustrating when you can't apply basic logic to the show. Logically days should have past. Those surgeries would take time. The body would be so taxed it would need some recovery time between them. But it's Arrow, so maybe it was just a couple days.

 

Until we get something explicit from the show, I'm basing my timeline off of TV Magic when it comes to medical stuff. So yes, everything that happened would have taken much more time, but I think we're supposed to believe it was a matter of about two days. If Oliver had been MIA from the hospital for weeks or even one week, I don't think the team, let alone Felicity or Donna, would have handled it so lightly. So that puts 410 in mid-late December, which still puts us in roughly April for the grave scene. 

 

I think there will be a jump of an unspecified amount of time between 410 and 11, because of DD's promise of a reprieve of a few weeks, and because we see Felicity home from the hospital and talking about still not being ready to do Arrow stuff. Plus, I think that's about how it went last season? The jump was in 311 or 12, right? Not 310? (And then there seemed to be another between 12 and 13.)

Edited January 21, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[Morrigan2575]

So that puts 410 in mid-late December, which still puts us in roughly April for the grave scene

 

In 409 they specifically said that 409 was 3 months after 401 which is the mid-way point between 401 and the 6 months later flash forward in the premiere.  In theory if 410 also takes place within the same week as 409 which is mid-December but now there's a flash foward that says 4 months from now, they've effectively pushed the death out, roughly a month.

[Carrie Ann]

Ohhhh gotcha. I totally missed that. Well, then that just seems like a dumb mistake (one way or the other), but doesn't affect my opinion of the timing of this ep or the death.

[Chaser]

P.S. This is one of the parts I've 'forgotten' but since someone asked about making more out of Oliver and Laurel's interactions, here's WM's response in her TVLine interview:

Unfortunately,

she might be hinting that Laurel will take on the role as Oliver's moral compass for awhile, since both Diggle and Felicity may be morally compromised and in their own dark places (per the 'angel' quote from WM in her TVLine interview on page 29 of the Spoilers thread: ").

This is an interesting answer after that episode. They butted heads, but Oliver just dismissed Laurel in this episode. I certainly didn't see anything resembling Oliver and Diggle's relationship, it was actually a sharp contrast too it. They love to say that Laurel is an equal and respected, so thats nothing new.

 

As for Laurel being a moral compass? I don't think so. I think WM would have mentioned something in her previous interview. I think there is a difference in being a moral compass - like they have assigned Felicity and Diggle - and being a bumper. Oliver and Laurel being on different sides of a this "ends justify the mean" thing could establish someone who just creates resistance. I think a moral compass is more of an emotional, personal connection. A bumper is more logical, a different POV.

 

I'm nervous about how they are going to work in The Calculator. It sounds like they are driving into the Smoak Family, but that description doesn't leave much room.

[bijoux]

In 409 they specifically said that 409 was 3 months after 401 which is the mid-way point between 401 and the 6 months later flash forward in the premiere.  In theory if 410 also takes place within the same week as 409 which is mid-December but now there's a flash foward that says 4 months from now, they've effectively pushed the death out, roughly a month.

I don't remeber that. That makes it a mistake on the part of the previous episode. The premiere was in October and 4x09 with Hannukah and Christmas decorations definitely in December. If I actually had faith in these people's basic math skills, I'd start to think this was intentional amd there are multiple timelines, with Barry going back to reset things and it still all ends up the same, only not at the same point in time. However, they really do add up 2 and 2 to 5 just as often as not, and Barry is on a different show.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't remeber that. That makes it a mistake on the part of the previous episode. The premiere was in October and 4x09 with Hannukah and Christmas decorations definitely in December. If I actually had faith in these people's basic math skills, I'd start to think this was intentional amd there are multiple timelines, with Barry going back to reset things and it still all ends up the same, only not at the same point in time. However, they really do add up 2 and 2 to 5 just as often as not, and Barry is on a different show.

Yes and I made the math problem comment in my initial posts on the timeline.  However, that was before WM's interviews started dropping where she talked about playing with the timeline and that the death is not in the finale but a lot closer to the finale then where we are now.   I think they've changed their minds about where the death should occur in the season and pushed it back a couple of episodes.  

Edited January 21, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

Yeah, they had issues with estabilishing for just how long Andy had been presumed dead, too.

Edited January 21, 2016 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

Man, Felicity said the words "3 months ago" three times in 409, haha.

 

Felicity: Oliver was gonna propose to me 3 months ago.

Donna: What?

Felicity: 3 months ago.

 

Oliver: Is it Darhk?

Felicity: In as much as he's the reason that Laurel and Thea showed up on our doorstep 3 months ago right before you were going to propose.

[looptab]

It may be because when they count, they go like "It was october, now it's December, so, October, November, December->1,2,3" LOL

[bijoux]

It may be because when they count, they go like "It was october, now it's December, so, October, November, December->1,2,3" LOL

It would be funny if it wasn't true.

[Sunshine]

@Morrigan2575 - Are you saying you think there will be 2 deaths? The grave and MM?

[Morrigan2575]

@Morrigan2575 - Are you saying you think there will be 2 deaths? The grave and MM?

Yes.  I always assumed that Oliver would kill the "him" that was responsible for THE death.  I just think the "him" is not Darhk (which was my initial suspect) but instead is Malcolm.  

 

This is mostly based on WM being cagey about the "him".  In story wise it seems like Darhk should be the "him" in question.  So I really don't know...

[Belinea]

Judging by Felicity's reaction, BM and son are not in the grave, right. She seemed more upset than Oliver to me. I doubt it is her mother though, but I'd still go with Lance.

Still praying it is not my beloved Diggle.

I assumed that him could be Darkh, MM or even Andy. Depending on the person in the grave. But it should either be MM or Darkh.

Felicity will break up with Oliver in 4x15 or 4x16 because of the lie who I still consider to be one even though MG's definition differs from that. The death should happen in 4x21 - 4x22... Doubt it is the last episode. Usually they put a nice bow on top of the season finale.

I still don't buy that they don't know who or when. That would make them extremely incompetent. Maybe they drag it out but they know.

I don't see how Laurel becomes relevant to Oliver again. They always have such a negative vibe (imo) and once (if) she finds out about the kid, their relationship will once again add insult to injury.

The whole BM story is such a mess from start to finish. I don't see how having a kid with a guest character adds anything to the show, let's wait and see how good or bad it can get.

I have to admit the LoA stuff already bores me even though I have yet to see it. While I like Nyssa, I don't care anymore for MM and his schemes.

I just want Felicity to come up with something badass so that she can save the company at the end of the season. Hopefully that will be more than an afterthought.

[dtissagirl]

Possible HIMs:

 

- DD

- Malcolm

- Anarky

- Andy

- Felicity's father

- Alex

[Guest]

Given the absolutely ridiculousness of Oliver repeatedly attacking Damien and getting his arrows thrown back at him by way of magic, they need to strip DD of his powers. So I'm guessing when Oliver finds out what happened when DD touched Thea, he'll have to deal with the moral question of using his sister to stop the bad guy. And when they do, Thea will somehow get hurt or drained or something that puts her in the hospital. 

 

Then Laurel will persecute DD but his wife or someone else will be revealed to be the mastermind behind it all. I'm not ruling out Malcolm to be the 'him' they need to kill in the end. I wouldn't be surprised if he teams up with DD at some point. He did save Vandal Savage after all. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Guest

[statsgirl]

The Australian promo makes it seem like Felicity comes back to the team, screws up because sick/drugs, and quits because she thinks she's a liability.

[lemotomato]

I don't know how to feel about Felicity being forced to get right back to helping the team when she's clearly not ready. I know the show likes to ignore stuff like PTSD and recovery time from near fatal injuries, but it's ridiculous that the team apparently just expects her bounce back like she's not going through life-changing trauma.

[wonderwall]

I'm willing to wait and see how it plays out... I wonder if the team actually forces Felicity to go back to work like nothing happened, or if Felicity goes to help the team as though nothing happened... Only time will tell

[wonderwall]

I have to admit this is really cute

 

[statsgirl]

WM said that the death will be closer to the end of the season than to now.  The four months in the future timeline makes it seem like it's in May, which I don't want because given how chilly the state of Felicity and Oliver was in the limo, I want the show to give them enough time to come together again for the end of the season, not rush it like they did in season 3.  Oops, look, they're together now!

 

Possible HIMs:

 

- DD

- Malcolm

- Anarky

- Andy

- Felicity's father

- Alex

It feels like Felicity's anger is too great for it to be Andy, her father or Alex, but you never know with the twists of this show.

 

I find it interesting that it's a "him" and definitely not a "her".

[dtissagirl]

I'm not putting too much stock in Felicity's reaction until I know whether EBR was in the know about the death and the killer... otherwise it's just stage direction tailored to fool me [ie the audience].

But I also think anger against the killer depends on the victim, which is probably why there's so much spec about Donna right now.

Edited January 21, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Starfish35]

I sort of agree with that, but at the same time, I can't see Felicity having that kind of reaction if the victim is, say, Samantha. I think she'd be quiet and sad, but not as enraged as she seems to be. So I do think it takes a few of the more peripheral characters off the board.

[hogwash]

VIXEN! She looks awesome. 

[Genki]

Felicity's reaction to the death does seems over the top for certain characters, however in order to maximise the "Who's in the Grave speculation" they will have number of things go wrong and a number of people in peril.

 

So if some of Team Arrow and friends were injured and 1 was actually killed and if the chain of events that started this was due to something personal like Felicity's injuries, for example Oliver freeing Anarky, or her Dad coming back and playing out the Calculator/Proxy storyline, or Malcolm being Malcolm, I can see Felicity's reaction being so strong even for Quentin or Laurel or Baby Mama.

 

I really Felt the parallel between the Dahrks and the Queens and I'm interested to see what gets Felicity to that vengeful state that she is in, but I'm not 100% sure about the break-up, that whole scene was designed to generate buzz.

 

Someone speculated that "Firewall" could be Felicity's new codename quick google reveals the following.

 

 

Firewall was built by Barbara Gordon, aka Oracle, underneath her apartment building after Dick Grayson told her she could no longer operate out of the Batcave with her new Batgirl, Stephanie Brown.

 

The computer systems in Firewall are connected to all the digital networks and is completely untraceable because it never actually touches the data it acquires. Firewall became the base of operations for Batgirl and after Wendy Harris, aka Proxy, began handling missions in the absence of Oracle, became the unofficial headquarters of 'Team Batgirl.'

 

Source

[Morrigan2575]

That would be dtissagirl, she called Firewall as the new code name

[dtissagirl]

I sort of agree with that, but at the same time, I can't see Felicity having that kind of reaction if the victim is, say, Samantha. I think she'd be quiet and sad, but not as enraged as she seems to be. So I do think it takes a few of the more peripheral characters off the board.

 

Right, I totally agree. It's just that I discounted BM and kid even before this flash forward, so I didn't even factor that.

 

What I meant is, I can see Felicity having ginormous amounts of anger towards Alex or Anarky being the killer, if the victim is someone she loves.

[Starfish35]

Right, I totally agree. It's just that I discounted BM and kid even before this flash forward, so I didn't even factor that.

What I meant is, I can see Felicity having ginormous amounts of anger towards Alex or Anarky being the killer, if the victim is someone she loves.

Oh! Yes, agreed. I wasn't thinking of Felicity's reaction of being indicative of who the killer was, just the victim.

[wonderwall]

I posted a screencap a couple of pages ago that her codename might be firewall based on what we see on her monitor

 

[lemotomato]

If the death is as big of a deal as the EPs claim, it kind of makes sense they'd push it later so it happens during May sweeps (4/28-5/25 this year). That would contradict what MG had said about the death after 401, that it was going to happen with enough time left in the season for us to see the other characters process and be affected, but I guess they changed their minds.

[statsgirl]

They could still have time to process it.  They processed Oliver's "death" in 3x10 enough for me.

 

I'm more worried about Oliver and Felicity having time to get back into a good place for the summer hiatus.

 

Firewall is a good name for Felicity because that's kind of what she does -- keep the Team in the field from harm.

[calliope1975]

The level of Felicity's anger really made me wonder if it's Malcolm she's talking about.  She REALLY hates Malcolm.  It wouldn't matter who the person in the grave is to her if the one responsible for putting them there was Malcolm. 

 

After reading what WM said I had a moment of Diggle dread and it was strong.  Losing Diggle would rock the show - in a pretty horrible way IMO but after all our complaints about Laurel not being logical when Oliver had Diggle, could they have decided to get rid of Diggle?  I mean, the body count to the altar of because the comics say so is already pretty steep.  Would they consider dealing with Andy, wrapping up Diggle's storyline? 

 

I think MM is the "son of a bitch" too. He's a regular. He's been around since S1. He's a crazy sociopathic crackpot, and it's time for him to go. Oliver can for really real kill him this time in some epic fight so JB goes out in a blaze of glory. Maybe Thea can be the one to actually kill him in a sins of the father type thing. Nyssa takes over the LOA and remains frenemies with TA. 

 

Thinking about last night's TA without Felicity, and how terrible it was, I think it would be the same without Digg, too. Props for having an almost all-girl team if Digg were to go, but I think it still wouldn't gel. I know TIIC think the team needs to change, expand, etc., but if they want it watchable, Felicity and Digg shouldn't be going anywhere. 

 

WM seems to indicate in at least one interview that it's much closer to the finale then originally hinted at.  At least that's my takeaway from her interviews.  Sounds like it's now 421 or 422.

 

That's disappointing. I was hoping the death reveal would be sooner rather than later so we could get this speculation over with and then deal with the aftermath for a few episodes. Apparently not.

[Starfish35]

Deleted.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

Oh! Yes, agreed. I wasn't thinking of Felicity's reaction of being indicative of who the killer was, just the victim.

I think that was set up on purpose -- Felicity's anger is all about getting us worried about Diggle and Donna.

[lemotomato]

They could still have time to process it. They processed Oliver's "death" in 3x10 enough for me.

I'm more worried about Oliver and Felicity having time to get back into a good place for the summer hiatus.

Episodes 21-23 are differently paced compared to episode 10, though. The end of the season is always wall-to-wall action and plot with little time spent to process. The team didn't even really have time to react to thinking that Oliver left them all to die in 322-23. They shrugged it off and followed his lead as soon as he showed up again.

And yeah, I'm also worried about Oliver and Felicity being on the outs so close to the end of the season. I don't want to believe TPTB would keep them apart through summer hiatus but who knows.