Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Morrigan2575]

Oliver better stay the fuck away from Central City and that kid after whatever happens in the midseason. If I was the BM (so perfect) and he tried to see my son after that shit went down, I would gut him like a fish.

Anyway, I think breakup 3.0(?) will be the opposite of the timeline 1's contrived-as-fuck breakup. I hope Oliver tells her and they talk about it even if it ends with them breaking up. They better avoid any implications that it's "Felicity vs the kid" thing. It needs to be about the incessant lying. Like the spat in 406 bringing up other issues.

Which would be absolutely hysterical.

I don't want William dragged into your crazy life!

Oh wow, Oliver heard about the car accident and kidnapping and that, that Felicity person is in the hospital. You should come to Close and see William, maybe spend the weekend...

Edited December 4, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

I actually do have hope that the blowup will be about the lie not the kid, because it was the first time they had that fight. I think Felicity is going to be supportive of Oliver being a father. She's just not going to be supportive of Oliver being a liar. And she should probably bring up that he can't be a good father and a liar at the same time. 

Yeah, lying incessantly is not exactly modeling good values. 

Damn you, Steve. Why do you have to be so affecting after last episode?

I find his facial expression in the lower gif to be pretty blah.  She's ugly gasping that she loves him as she's about to die, and he looks mildly concerned.

I don't want them to be mean but sad and touching since this is the choice we're left with.

I hated her being mean in 4.06, because he hadn't done anything wrong.  But I CRAVE her being mean for this one.  He's a scumbag.  I mean, I don't want her to tell him she's sure he'll be a terrible father or anything crazy, but I want her to bitchslap him HARD for lying to her over and over, and manipulating her.

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Password]

Hahahaha mildly concerned. I actually think he looks like he's trying to calm her down.

[AyChihuahua]

Hahahaha mildly concerned. I actually think he looks like he's trying to calm her down.

Out of context, he just doesn't look all that emotional to me.  In-show it's more likely to make sense, that yeah he's trying to calm her and probably himself down (King of Compartmentalization), and that he has a plan.

[apinknightmare]

Oh wow, Oliver heard about the car accident and kidnapping and that, that Felicity person is in the hospital. You should come to Close and see William, maybe spend the weekend...

 

Seriously. Saw you getting shot at at a beach, and that your campaign headquarters was attacked, and you got into some kind of near-fatal car accident (i'm guessing). Since there's clearly someone after you, why don't you come on out to Central City for a visit to see your kid?!

 

I hate this storyline for all it's worth, but I'm morbidly curious about how it turns out since no mother (or father) in their goddamn right minds would want to subject a kid to all that. Oliver should voluntarily step out of the kid's life, but that's not really the way I thought the show was going with regards to Oliver having a normal life and normal things or whatever. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Angel12d]

Out of context, he just doesn't look all that emotional to me.  In-show it's more likely to make sense, that yeah he's trying to calm her and probably himself down (King of Compartmentalization), and that he has a plan.

 

I like his expression and the way he presses his hand against the glass, and the breathlessness. He's breathing so heavily, like he's losing breath with her, as cheesy as that sounds. It's working for me and I hate myself for it. LOL.

[AyChihuahua]

To be honest it has always bothered me that Felicity forgave him so easily at the end of Season 3. He let her believe she was dying. He cut her and Digg out of their partnership. She was emotionally tortured thinking the man she loved gave up his soul for an episode or two.  Digg got to express that anger and betrayal, Felicity never got that agency.

I'm with you.  I am on the record as hating the Porsche ride into/away from the sunset, because he crapped all over her all season but especially towards the end.  I always imagine the first night in their hotel, with her waking up to the face of the man who left her to die.  Talk about nightmare fuel.  That's why I didn't get the people not understanding her statements re trust, because that was a big part of last season.  Apparently people's memories are really bad, even with the early S4 reminders about OTA's trust issues from Diggle. 

[Morrigan2575]

Seriously. Saw you getting shot at at a beach, and that your campaign headquarters was attacked, and you got into some kind of near-fatal car accident (i'm guessing). Since there's clearly someone after you, why don't you come on out to Central City for a visit to see your kid?!

But just make sure you don't tell anyone about William, not even that Felicity person you say you're dating. Are you still dating her? Maybe you should break up, can't risk anyone finding out about William... Oh hey, bring a change of clothes, you can sleepover and make a weekend of it. William would like that! Edited December 4, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

I like his expression and the way he presses his hand against the glass, and the breathlessness. He's breathing so heavily, like he's losing breath with her, as cheesy as that sounds. It's working for me and I hate myself for it. LOL.

You just love his face.  He could probably make the Bark Collar taking-a-big-poo expression and he'd still look handsome, so hey, I get it.

 

I think it's more jarring to me in comparison to her.  Unlike KC, who tries to look pretty even while she's being tazed, EBR is willing to look ugly if the scene requires it.  She did it in the final Slade scene, too.  She made appropriate emotional facial expressions that were not particularly attractive.  So here, she's ugly gasping, and he's kind of looking handsomely intense, like usual. 

But just make sure you don't tell anyone about William, not even that Felicity person you say you're dating. Are you still dating her? Maybe you should break up, can't risk anyone finding out about William... Oh hey, bring a change of clothes, you can sleepover and make a weekend of it. William would like that!

EXACTLY.  (Also, stop, you're going to upset people.)

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[hogwash]

Yeah, lying incessantly is not exactly modeling good values. 

Though technically that's not something former spree killer and current masked vigilante Oliver Queen is really going for...

 

Seriously, this is exactly the kind of leverage the BM wants. If she doesn't use it against him, WTF? At least pretend the plot device BM isn't a plot device. If Oliver goes sees them after Darhk literally tells him "I'm doing killing these people because you care about them", I have no words. 

[Angel12d]

You just love his face.  He could probably make the Bark Collar taking-a-big-poo expression and he'd still look handsome, so hey, I get it.

 

Uh, what? It's nothing to do with him being handsome. I like his expression. I can feel his panic. That was my point. 

[dtissagirl]

Seriously, this is exactly the kind of leverage the BM wants. If she doesn't use it against him, WTF? At least pretend the plot device BM isn't a plot device. If Oliver goes sees them after Darhk literally tells him "I'm doing killing these people because you care about them", I have no words. 

 

This.

 

For all the loathing and dreading I have for this entire storyline, if they keep BM and William 100% out of the show UNTIL Felicity finds out, I might be able to cope with it. After Felicity dumps Oliver for being a shithead, he can go visit his kid all he wants.

[AyChihuahua]

Uh, what? It's nothing to do with him being handsome. I like his expression. I can feel his panic. That was my point. 

I was joking.  I thought the taking-a-poo thing would make that clear, since I am not good at emojis.

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Morrigan2575]

For all the loathing and dreading I have for this entire storyline, if they keep BM and William 100% out of the show UNTIL Felicity finds out, I might be able to cope with it. After Felicity dumps Oliver for being a shithead, he can go visit his kid all he wants.

That's where I am. Right now, I'm annoyed at the contrived writing because (like one of the reviewers just said) it's only happening because an outside force is afraid the audience is getting bored by happy Olicity.

However, if they put Felicity through the wringer, she gets tossed through a glass wall; nearly poisoned/killed in a chamber and finally injured after HIVE shoots up their limo. If after all that, Oliver goes to check on BM/William while Felicity is injured/recovering that's when I'll probably get pissed off.

However, I suspect Oliver will only conveniently go to visit William in 412/413 just in time for Felicity to find out.

I also suspect (sadly) that Olicity breakup in 413 just in time for a 414 Flashback episode where Oliver/Poppy get together. That's probably the contrast, Olicity breakup in present because of lies, Oliver gets girlfriend in the past because of lies. Poppy gets killed in the past, Felicity survives in the present.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

I really had forgotten about Poppy.

[dtissagirl]

However, I suspect Oliver will only conveniently go to visit William in 412/413 just in time for Felicity to find out.

I also suspect (sadly) that Olicity breakup in 413 just in time for a 414 Flashback episode where Oliver/Poppy get together. That's probably the contrast, Olicity breakup in present because of lies, Oliver gets girlfriend in the past because of lies. Poppy gets killed in the past, Felicity survives in the present.

 

Oh, man. 413 just went up in my bet for the break-up. Oliver asks BM to please let him tell Felicity about William, but Daddy Smoak's tracking him, and tells Felicity all about Oliver's secret family.

 

And I think you're totally right about the flashback ep too.

[AyChihuahua]

I also suspect (sadly) that Olicity breakup in 413 just in time for a 414 Flashback episode where Oliver/Poppy get together. That's probably the contrast, Olicity breakup in present because of lies, Oliver gets girlfriend in the past because of lies. Poppy gets killed in the past, Felicity survives in the present.

Real talk here, try to picture that.  A love scene, or even a kissing scene, between Oliver and Poppy. 

 

The idea makes me actually for real shudder.

[theacostov]

They've drawn comparisons to Oliver and Papa Smoak before (2x13 and 4x06). What are the chances Papa Smoak has a secret family too?

[Password]

...great, another possible storyline to think about.

[quarks]

That's where I am. Right now, I'm annoyed at the contrived writing because (like one of the reviewers just said) it's only happening because an outside force is afraid the audience is getting bored by happy Olicity.

 

 

I would say more that it's because at this point, Arrow wants a reason both to delay the Oliver/Felicity wedding until either the end of this season or, much more likely, season five, and to make viewers wonder if the wedding is actually going to happen.

 

After all, two weeks ago it seemed pretty clear that Oliver and Felicity would get married, right? Now - WHOOPS! SECRET CHILD AND LIES! OH NO! WILL THEY GET MARRIED NOW AFTER ALL? CAN THEY? TUNE IN NEXT TIME!

 

It reminds me of the second season, where Oliver and Sara slept together less because it made sense for either of them, and more because the show wanted to delay Oliver and Felicity. Here, we have Samantha demanding that Oliver keep this secret from Felicity, less because it makes any sense for Samantha - controlling visitation rights, sure, telling Oliver not to tell his live in girlfriend, really not - but more to cause suspense between Oliver and Felicity. 

 

It also reminds me a bit of Friends, which had a happy Monica and Chandler right up until the season finales, when suddenly Chandler would develop serious commitment disorder and run off from Monica to provide "suspense" about their engagement/wedding. Hijinks ensued. At least it was a break from Ross/Rachel. And at least with Arrow Oliver does have a history of lying, and the show has a history of examining the negative effects of violence on interpersonal relationships, and how violence impacts the ability to trust. Friends had to ignore that Chandler, outside those season finales, was a pretty stable, committed boyfriend, especially by TV standards.

 

Which is to say, this is all pretty standard for television. Sadly.

[Morrigan2575]

BTW - I'm totally skipping the flashback episode. Poppy can't act and the only thing that's worthwhile is Conklin but, not even Ryan Robbins is enough to make 42 minutes of that crap worth watching.

Double bonus: 414 is Bambam's next directorial gig (if it is the flashback) I get to skip a boring episode with crap directing :)

Edited December 4, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

If TV law goes: proposal in 409, break up in 413, forgiveness in 420 after whoever dies, proposal again in 423, wedding in 508 because EPISODE 100 + crossover.

 

It's just, you know, stop burning through plot points and then having to stall story because you're dumbasses who can't plan 23 episode seasons in a non-shitty way.

[apinknightmare]

I know it won't happen, but I really hope they walk this kid thing back somehow with Barry figuring out he did the test wrong (which I know probably isn't how science works, but I don't care). I just don't see how–after DD going after Oliver himself as a public persona—they deal with the kid. Who would ever believe that oh-so-protective Samantha would allow a guy who's constantly being targeted to be linked to her son? Why would Oliver ever, EVER take that chance? I can't believe the lesson here would be that Oliver just shouldn't ever have children, but how do they keep the kid in the picture at all? Even with secret weekend visits or whatever? 

[AyChihuahua]

I would say more that it's because at this point, Arrow wants a reason both to delay the Oliver/Felicity wedding until either the end of this season or, much more likely, season five, and to make viewers wonder if the wedding is actually going to happen.

I agree, but I'd add that I think this was an original O/L story point, and they like to stick Felicity into those original story points, bc characters, especially female characters, are interchangeable, you know.

 

My specific problem isn't the stalling, it's the stalling by stupidity.  There are a million perfectly fine ways to do this storyline, add drama, stall them, without this.  And, for me they're using a sledgehammer on something that needed a mallet.  They're breaking them, not just breaking them up.  Once he proposes to her while lying, and tells more lies to cover this lie and to visit the spawn, they've broken O/F, and it will never be as meaningful or special again. 

[bijoux]

Real talk here, try to picture that.  A love scene, or even a kissing scene, between Oliver and Poppy. 

 

The idea makes me actually for real shudder.

It's actually making me giggle and snort.

[Morrigan2575]

If TV law goes: proposal in 409, break up in 413, forgiveness in 420 after whoever dies, proposal again in 423, wedding in 508 because EPISODE 100 + crossover.

It's just, you know, stop burning through plot points and then having to stall story because you're dumbasses who can't plan 23 episode seasons in a non-shitty way.

Will Everyman show up at the wedding? I'm sure there's an E2 version they can bring over just for this occasion. LOL

However, yeah I can totally see big Olicity wedding for 100th episode/S5 Flarrow Crossover because these guys follow standard TV plotting/laws/tropes.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

What if the break-up is in 414?

12/13 it's Calculator, plus CR is back for 13. And Bambam is directing because Antonio Negret had to decline. Flashback episode+Olicity breaking up in the present =

BOOM

[Morrigan2575]

What if the break-up is in 414?

12/13 it's Calculator, plus CR is back for 13. And Bambam is directing because Antonio Negret had to decline. Flashback episode+Olicity breaking up in the present =

BOOM

That's possible. I actually haven't watched a flashback episode since S1. Is there usually enough time in the present portion of the episode to cover an Olicity breakup?

[apinknightmare]

That's possible. I actually haven't watched a flashback episode since S1. Is there usually enough time in the present portion of the episode to cover an Olicity breakup?

 

Yeah, I think so.

[AyChihuahua]

If she can't find out on her own, I like the idea of her dad telling her.  If DD does, then we have to worry about him napping the kid, and YAWN to that idea.  But the Calculator wouldn't have any major interest in the kid, other than using his existence to destroy Oliver's relationship with his daughter.  So I am thinking 12/13 sounds right, especially 13.

 

Also, I hope it's not 14, bc I don't want to watch a flashback or a Bam episode, but I really want to watch the breakup.

[looptab]

How do you think they'd handle Oliver's eventual visit to CC? Offscreen or with the actual actors there? Because if they have him go there while Felicity is meeting her father, wow, that's even worse.

[dtissagirl]

Will Everyman show up at the wedding? I'm sure there's an E2 version they can bring over just for this occasion. LOL

 

I bet Evil Story Steve would LOOOVE to play evil dude impersonating Oliver for an episode or six.

[theacostov]

If she can't find out on her own, I like the idea of her dad telling her. If DD does, then we have to worry about him napping the kid, and YAWN to that idea. But the Calculator wouldn't have any major interest in the kid, other than using his existence to destroy Oliver's relationship with his daughter. So I am thinking 12/13 sounds right, especially 13.

Also, I hope it's not 14, bc I don't want to watch a flashback or a Bam episode, but I really want to watch the breakup.

How appropriate. The guy that broke her trust in men coming back to break her trust in the one man that's supposed to have been the exception.

[apinknightmare]

How do you think they'd handle Oliver's eventual visit to CC? Offscreen or with the actual actors there? Because if they have him go there while Felicity is meeting her father, wow, that's even worse.

 

One of the post-mortems (EW, I think) indicated that we'd be seeing more of Samantha, but that wasn't a direct quote, just part of the write-up, so I don't know if it's correct, but if it is I imagine we'd see the actors? If it's not, hopefully all of this happens offscreen. 

[Angel12d]

I can see Felicity's dad telling her about Oliver's son, although I'm not quite sure how he would know that. Details! 

 

But I can totally see them coming up against each other and Felicity maybe defending what she does with Oliver and her dad will be like 'Do you even know the kind of man he is?' or whatever and then totally drop him in the shit. 

[AyChihuahua]

I can see Felicity's dad telling her about Oliver's son, although I'm not quite sure how he would know that. Details! 

 

But I can totally see them coming up against each other and Felicity maybe defending what she does with Oliver and her dad will be like 'Do you even know the kind of man he is?' or whatever and then totally drop him in the shit. 

If they go with the comic book idea that he's kind of an evil Oracle, he'll probably know everything about every target he goes after.  Since he apparently blackmails Roy in the episode, he'll have investigated the shit out of Roy, which will lead him to Oliver, et al.  That'll lead him to his daughter dating Oliver, who he'll know, surely, is the Green Arrow, and he'll see potential future advantage to causing friction bw the Green Arrow and his gf/tech support, so he'll try to suss out any potential blackmail items on Oliver.  From there it would be a very small hop, skip, jump to BM/spawn, especially if Oliver's visiting them by then.

[calliope1975]

^^ I'm leaning towards her father. Like, I imagine he knows all kinds of things on her and her life.

 

I'm going to go with Felicity meeting up with Dear Ole Dad, making a crack about him being an absentee father, and her Dad responding with something along the lines of - oh, like your boyfriend?

 

 

I really had forgotten about Poppy.

 

Haven't we all?

[Coop33]

If the break up is going to happen in 12/13 then I wonder if Felicity actually goes back to Vegas to visit in her mom in 13 instead of Donna coming to Star City again. It would make sense to me that she would want to get away for a while. 

[apinknightmare]

If the break up is going to happen in 12/13 then I wonder if Felicity actually goes back to Vegas to visit in her mom in 13 instead of Donna coming to Star City again. It would make sense to me that she would want to get away for a while. 

 

I'd be for that. Although I also wouldn't mind if Donna was in town when it happened so she'd have some support. And she could pack Felicity's things for her and tell Oliver how disappointed she is in him when he inevitably comes home and finds her with a suitcase. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'd be for that. Although I also wouldn't mind if Donna was in town when it happened so she'd have some support. And she could pack Felicity's things for her and tell Oliver how disappointed she is in him when he inevitably comes home and finds her with a suitcase. 

WHY WON'T YOU FIC IT?!?

 

For those not in the know, so you don't think I'm a crazy person, apinknightmare wrote several excellent O/F fics, including a post-S2 multichapter that is particularly good.  It's near the top of the kudos list on AO3.

Edited December 4, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Password]

Seriously don't raise my expectations like this. I'd like nothing better than the situation @apinknightmare described. Oliver needs a time out.

[Carrie Ann]

I've kind of envisioned a scenario where there are longer-term effects from the presumed injury, and that Donna would already be in town for nursing duties. So when the inevitable breakup occurs, I envisioned Felicity moving out (probably just into a PT corporate apartment, i.e., the lab hastily redressed a la RP's place) and Donna coming with her. But yes, any disappointed glances she can throw Oliver's way, I will accept with gratitude.

[wonderwall]

One of the post-mortems (EW, I think) indicated that we'd be seeing more of Samantha, but that wasn't a direct quote, just part of the write-up, so I don't know if it's correct, but if it is I imagine we'd see the actors? If it's not, hopefully all of this happens offscreen. 

 

If it's written by Natalie Abrams it's 99.99% likely to be false. 

[apinknightmare]

WHY WON'T YOU FIC IT?!?

 

OKAY, FINE

If it's written by Natalie Abrams it's 99.99% likely to be false. 

 

I don't think it was, but I'm not 100%.

[Morrigan2575]

It was Natalie Abrams

Despite Barry’s warnings about Oliver keeping this secret from Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards), the emerald archer stays mum. Basically, instead of the quick and heated breakup Olicity had in the first timeline, now there’s a simmering slow burn to what may be in store — unless she’s in that grave. It probably doesn’t help either that we’ll be seeing more of Samantha in coming episodes.

“It’s definitely going to come to a head in the middle of the season,” EP Wendy Mericle says. “Obviously for the arc of Oliver and Felicity’s relationship this season, the fact that he’s keeping this from her — true to what we’ve done on the show, if there’s a secret somewhere, it’s going to come out and it’s going to have some serious consequences. We’re really excited about how that’s going to change things and it’s really going to raise the stakes and throw some wrenches into the works of their relationship, which so far this season it’s been pretty smooth sailing. True to form, we’re really going to mine that. There will be some fallout for both of them.”

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/02/arrow-flash-crossover-legends-spoilers-oliver-kid

Edited December 4, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

It was Natalie Abrams

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/02/arrow-flash-crossover-legends-spoilers-oliver-kid

 

Oh good. That makes me feel better!

[AyChihuahua]

Here's my spec: Felicity and the Calculator realize they're father/daughter and current enemies.  They agree to a meeting, but she's on comms, with Oliver and the rest of TA.  Felicity has a bit of a cruel streak, which she doesn't get from her sweet-as-heck mom, so I'm going to guess she gets it from daddy.  He mentions that he left her and her mom for his other family.  She says that she could never want to be around a man who would do that.  He says "What about your fiancé and his second family?"  Oliver's on the comms freaking out telling her he can explain, just let him explain.  Then daddy dear could twist the knife by pointing out weirdness Felicity has already noticed, like Oliver being weird about his phone and visiting CC a lot. 

 

Tom Amandes would kill that scene.

[bijoux]

Tom Amandes would kill that scene.

I hate your spec but this is absolutely true.

[AyChihuahua]

I hate your spec but this is absolutely true.

He'd be like fatherly, but fake-y fatherly, and kind of concerned, but a bit gleeful, and a little menacing.  It'd be amazing.

[statsgirl]

How could they resist having Felicity's father be the one to tell her the news?

"You think I'm a bad father?  Let me just tell you about Oliver......"

 

 

What if the break-up is in 414?

12/13 it's Calculator, plus CR is back for 13. And Bambam is directing because Antonio Negret had to decline. Flashback episode+Olicity breaking up in the present =

BOOM

What worries me is that they give Negret the big emotional episodes because he handles the feels so well.  I really don't trust Bam-Bam to do the same.

 

I still feel like if the show is going to throw a curveball and not pick from the main cast it won't be BabyMama or William. I think it will be Poppy or Campaign manager.  However, my bet is still a LANCE in the ground.

I doubt it will be Poppy, I get the feeling she died on the island.  Contrast to Felicity who remains alive at the end of the episode.

Unless they really start giving Campaign Manager something to do, who besides Thea is going to care if he dies?

 

I think the proposal will happen because Oliver has just been threatened with the possibility of actually losing Felicity for real (and not just by breaking up but by, you know, death, if the gassing is any indication) so he'll just be so high on the fact that she's alive and they're together and he'll want to show his love and commitment by proposing. I don't think he'll even be thinking of his secret son at that moment. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if he doesn't start to tell her in the limo, once the high and the emotion has had a moment to settle and then of course, DOOM. 

 

.This is the only possible way it could turn out without totally destroying Oliver and Olicity, that he wants to tell her, just as Moira wanted to warn Thea about Malcolm, but is prevented from doing it.  And then he can't because she's hurt, and then he can't for another reason, blah, blah, blah, and then she finds out from another source.