Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BkWurm1]

So, trying to be an optimist here.  We have Donna in 409, 410 and she's there for filming another episode now. Any chance that in one of these episodes Donna will help Felicity find a way to forgive Oliver? 

 

They said that they were going to throw everything at Oliver and Felicity and see how they react as a couple.  I have to remind myself that in a way it is a good thing if they break up by say 4-14.  That means there would be time for them to reconcile by the end of the season just in time for them to have a happy summer without us.  Maybe, just maybe the crap we get now will mean that they will come out stronger at the end (without breaking them up to the point of dating other people)

Probably and as a friend of mine pointed out the standard timeline.

Felicity finds out in 412/413
Olicity breakup for 412/413-419
Death happens and Olicity get back together in 420.

It's the same routine just this time no temp relationship unless it's the kid.

Yeah, this type of thing. 

[AyChihuahua]

I have been so proud of Oliver this season, but this is unforgivable, especially if he does propose.  On the plus side, I think that will get me totally over Olicity, and likely totally over Arrow.  I hope she dumps his ass and moves to Gotham.  I hear that Richard Grayson is a nice young man.

 

So, trying to be an optimist here.  We have Donna in 409, 410 and she's there for filming another episode now. Any chance that in one of these episodes Donna will help Felicity find a way to forgive Oliver?

Why should she forgive him?  He lied to and manipulated her last year, and now he's doing it again.  Proposing without telling her is manipulating her.  He'd supposedly learned and changed since last year, but the first big thing that comes and he lies to and manipulates her again.  Why should she want to be with him?

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[NumberCruncher]

Felicity's dad comes mid-season, correct?  And doesn't he deal in information?  So what are the odds he finds out about Oliver's secret and tells Felicity?  Because right now I don't hold much hope Oliver man's up and tells her the truth.

That would be pretty much the most terrible way to go about it which is probably why they'll do it.

[jay741982]

Probably and as a friend of mine pointed out the standard timeline.

Felicity finds out in 412/413

Olicity breakup for 412/413-419

Death happens and Olicity get back together in 420.

It's the same routine just this time no temp relationship unless it's the kid.

Don't trust these writers! Samantha will get back in the picture or Horror of Horrors Loliver 2.0

[pivot]

I have zero interest in sitting through another season of doom and gloom to get 5 minutes of happy Olicity time on the season finale. The writers seem to think people want to sit through a 22-episode Batman movie. 2 hours was long enough for that much depressing storylines for me.

[Morrigan2575]

Don't trust these writers! Samantha will get back in the picture or Horror of Horrors Loliver 2.0

Yeah, I really don't think so

[jay741982]

I have zero interest in sitting through another season of doom and gloom to get 5 minutes of happy Olicity time on the season finale. The writers seem to think people want to sit through a 22-episode Batman movie. 2 hours was long enough for that much depressing storylines for me.

Well actually we got 8 episodes at least. I don't understand why the writers did this Olicity has been prefect so far it's not hard to keep it that way without BS contrived Angst!

Edited December 3, 2015 by jay741982

[BkWurm1]

 

Why should she forgive him?  He lied to and manipulated her last year, and now he's doing it again.  Proposing without telling her is manipulating her.  He'd supposedly learned and changed since last year, but the first big thing that comes and he lies to and manipulates her again.  Why should she want to be with him?

 

Why should she forgive him?  Why should she have forgiven him last year?  Because she loves him.  And he makes bad decisions out of fear. 

 

This is the part of the story where I want Felicity to find out, yell at him for being a dumbass and just as Oliver starts to say he'll do the right thing and be the one to move out Felicity calls him an even bigger dumbass and tells him he can't get rid of her that easily and that they are in it together for the long haul and they are not done talking about this and what he needs to stop making the same mistakes but she's not going anywhere and she loves him stupid dumbass decisions and all. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Carrie Ann]

I have nothing to add to all of your rage-filled thoughts, but to say that Felicity clearly had a point in that first fight scene, because Oliver can't really trust her if he doesn't trust her not to break up with him on learning he has a child. If he really thinks she would do that...then I mean, how could he also think she's "the best?" How could you propose to a person who would break up with you over that? And even if you could, why would you, knowing the other shoe would have to drop someday? NONE OF THIS MAKES ANY SENSE.

 

This felt exactly like an S3 episode, and I have strong fears that most of 4B will as well. I think Mama Smoak is around to nurse Felicity through whatever her injury is (and to make time with QL, obv), so that's happening. Then at some point, oh probably around February sweeps, Felicity will learn about the kid, one way or another but let's assume that it's in whatever way is worst. They break up, probably using the same love/trust language from the fight scene in this ep.

 

Then I predict that the writers will do their damnedest to turn this shit around and make people happy again, so there will be a marked change in tone in about 415/416, like last season, but that will not be when O/F get back together. If they do. I'm with others that that won't happen until May sweeps time, possibly not until the very last moment. Ta-da! That's how you arc out the worst possible plotline, Arrow-style.

[AyChihuahua]

Why should she forgive him?  Why should she have forgiven him last year?  Because she loves him.  And he makes bad decisions out of fear. 

 

This is the part of the story where I want Felicity to find out, yell at him for being a dumbass and just as Oliver starts to say he'll do the right thing and be the one to move out Felicity calls him an even bigger dumbass and tells him he can't get rid of her that easily and that they are in it together for the long haul and they are not done talking about this and what he needs to stop making the same mistakes but she's not going anywhere and she loves him stupid dumbass decisions and all. 

You have to know that's not what's going to happen.  They are going to break up.

 

And how many more times does she have to put up with him lying and manipulating to her?  Every year, for the next 56 years he gets a pass for lying and manipulating because he's scared?  He never has to change, for real?

[Angel12d]

I'm expecting a break-up around the time Felicity's father is introduced, so that's 413/414, right? I wouldn't be surprised if it unravels then. Felicity meeting her dad at the same time she finds out Oliver is a father. Makes sense to me. 

 

Plus Oliver deserves to get dumped over this and should earn back her trust. The question is whether I'll still be around to watch it. 

 

Hahahahahaha. KIDS RUIN EVERYTHING. SO DO DUMB ARROW WRITERS.

[BkWurm1]

Well actually we got 8 episodes at least. I don't understand why the writers did this Olicity has been prefect so far it's not hard to keep it that way without BS contrived Angst!

 

And it hasn't just been fans of Olicity that have been happy, but those that don't like it.  It's not really the romance that most IMO hate but the manufactured angst and drama.  Then relationship crap gets the blame. 

You have to know that's not what's going to happen.  They are going to break up.

 

And how many more times does she have to put up with him lying and manipulating to her?  Every year, for the next 56 years he gets a pass for lying and manipulating because he's scared?  He never has to change, for real?

About 95% sure you are right but wouldn't that be just super repetitive?  Crap, now I'm praying that MG pulls one of his TWISTS! and surprises the hell out of the audience by making Felicity NOT react like she did before.  Of course making that work would mean Felicity would have to have a few teachable moments that alter her viewpoint of Oliver's actions.  It could be done with just a few conversations or through Felicity struggling to recover so for a little while longer I will cling to my 5% fairy tale.

Edited December 3, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

And it hasn't just been fans of Olicity that have been happy, but those that don't like it.  It's not really the romance that most IMO hate but the manufactured angst and drama.  Then relationship crap gets the blame. 

About 95% sure you are right but wouldn't that be just super repetitive?  Crap, now I'm praying that MG pulls one of his TWISTS! and surprises the hell out of the audience by making Felicity NOT react like she did before.  Of course making that work would mean Felicity would have to have a few teachable moments that alter her viewpoint of Oliver's actions.  It could be done with just a few conversations or through Felicity struggling to recover so for a little while longer I will cling to my 5% fairy tale.

I'm pretty sure these writers consider repetition to be the height of art.

 

She doesn't need the teachable moments, he does.  He's going to be visiting the kid, i.e., piling lies on top of lies.  For at least weeks.  Basically every day he'll be looking at her and lying straight to her face about something huge that affects her.  She would have, probably, gotten over it in Argument #1, but she ain't going to get over it now.

 

And they are absolutely breaking up.  At least there's not a Ray around for her to date.  

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Morrigan2575]

I'm expecting a break-up around the time Felicity's father is introduced, so that's 413/414, right? I wouldn't be surprised if it unravels then. Felicity meeting her dad at the same time she finds out Oliver is a father. Makes sense to me.

Felicity's dad is in 412-413 and Donna comes back in 413. So yeah Felicity probably finds out in 412 or 413. I believe it's been mentioned that Calculator blackmails people with information/ secrets to get them to do his bidding.

He could blackmail Arrow with the BMD and that's how Felicity finds out.

[Chaser]

Can't you guys hear the break up now?

 

"I was just so afraid to lose you."

 

"And the irony is, you wouldn't have. Then."

[Angel12d]

Can't you guys hear the break up now?

 

"I was just so afraid to lose you."

 

"And the irony is, you wouldn't have. Then."

 

And she's gonna give him back the ring and they'll both be crying. IT'S ALL SO PREDICTABLE IT HURTS. 

 

Seriously, they had the chance to portray a real healthy and mature couple with Olicity and they just blew it for the sake of what? Pissing off everyone? Olicity fans aren't happy about this and haters won't be happy about it either. Did they not learn their lesson from s3?!

Edited December 3, 2015 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

And for me, it won't be particularly sad now.  His behavior, after S3 and supposedly learning from S3, is totally dumpworthy.  (God, another 7-ish episodes of them at odds.  Just like S3.  FUN.)

[wonderwall]

Can't you guys hear the break up now?

 

"I was just so afraid to lose you."

 

"And the irony is, you wouldn't have. Then."

 

I really want Felicity to break up with Oliver though. Make him feel the pain and consequence of lying. Because honestly, I feel like that's the only way he'll learn. Before, when he lied he rarely had to suffer the consequences (long term) and often got off scot free from his friends/family. So now I want them to break up.

 

Mind you I still lvoe this couple. But I'm loving them from afar right now.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I really don't think so

 

Unfortunately it seems like she is coming back on - it was mentioned in a post-mortem that we'd be seeing more of her. I think it was the EW article. It wasn't a direct quote though, so I'm holding out hope that they're wrong. 

[Lady Calypso]

So....if Calculator is the one who tells Felicity about the kid, then it'll be the third person that gives up Oliver's secret instead of him doing it himself. Slade to Laurel, Ra's to Quentin, and now Calculator to Felicity.

 

WRITERS, TRY SOMETHING NEW FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIVES GODDAMNIT! If we can all predict what'll happen, you're not doing your jobs well enough. Try having Oliver actually tell Felicity in the limo. Have him not propose. Have Felicity injured, but in the know about the kid because of Oliver. And, most importantly, HAVE THEM WORK THROUGH IT AND NOT BREAK UP GODDAMNIT.

 

That's literally all I want. Have Felicity be peeved, have Oliver grovel and do everything for Felicity to forgive him for lying, but for pete's sake, don't have them follow cliches. 

[Chaser]

I really want Felicity to break up with Oliver though. Make him feel the pain and consequence of lying. Because honestly, I feel like that's the only way he'll learn. Before, when he lied he rarely had to suffer the consequences (long term) and often got off scot free from his friends/family. So now I want them to break up.

 

Mind you I still lvoe this couple. But I'm loving them from afar right now.

I am totally on board with a break up at this point. 

 

I don't want it ugly and cruel, but Oliver needs to understand he is a little shit. And Diggle needs to punch him. Hard. Then give him an ice pack because they are still brothers. But then help Felicity pack up her things and insist she stay with them for awhile.

 

We didn't see Oliver try and make anything up to Felicity for his actions last season, but I'm going to need a full-on, muti-episode wooing this season.

[apinknightmare]

 

 

Brian Ford Sullivan ‏@briforsul  6m6 minutes ago

I remember @mguggenheim coming into the room and telling me "you have to watch these Oliver/Samantha dailies right now!" So many feels!

 

Uh...nope.

[calliope1975]

 And Diggle needs to punch him. Hard. 

 

I didn't know how badly I needed this until I just read it. Yes, please. 

 

I also need Lyla and some mint chocolate chip ice cream while hanging with Baby Sara.

[Chaser]

Uh...nope.

I honestly can't stand how MG and WM are talking about this storyline.

[apinknightmare]

I honestly can't stand how MG and WM are talking about this storyline.

 

He knocked her up and behaved like a douche to the point where his mother thought the best option was to ask her to fake a miscarriage. She lied to Oliver about the kid being his THREE TIMES, then made the condition of Oliver's presence in his son's life inexplicably stupid. THE FEELS!!!

[Carrie Ann]

Uh...nope.

 

OMG, the replies to that tweet. *praise hands emoji*

[calliope1975]

OMG, the replies to that tweet. *praise hands emoji*

 

Where might I find such things?

[Carrie Ann]

Where might I find such things?

 

Right here!

[jay741982]

Uh...nope.

I'm telling you and others. I will not put it past these fucktard writers to break Olicity up. Then have Samantha and Oliver getting closer cause of their son!

[calliope1975]

Right here!

 

Thank you! That was hilarious. I'm glad I'm not alone in my feelings that this was a garbage episode.

 

I also absolutely agree that this ep is why the Flarrow viewing was canceled, and I want to know who pulled the plug. Can you imagine the Q&A that would have occurred as the credits rolled and the lights came on. That reaction would have truly been epic. I am now sad it didn't happen.

[jay741982]

OMG, the replies to that tweet. *praise hands emoji*

I love some of the responses! " did you guys binge Gilmore Girls when writing this?" "She is the worst ever" "worst episode ever". Etc etc

[statsgirl]

Well MG did say that they were going to avoid Felicity being kidnapped for as long as possible. I guess that's this is one way of doing it.

 

If they're broken up for the death, it explains why Felicity isn't supporting Oliver at the graveside.

 

The only possible way this could be worse is that while Oliver and Felicity are apart, one or both start dating someone else.

I don't feel so bad about the current scenario now.  If Oliver does start dating Samantha, or Felicity someone else, I'm out.

 

So between Oliver and Felicity and the lying and the injury, and Emma and Hook on OUaT trying to kill each other, and Castle and Beckett still separated, it's been a great fall for my ships.  (At least Castle and Beckett are talking now.)

Edited December 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[jay741982]

Thank you! That was hilarious. I'm glad I'm not alone in my feelings that this was a garbage episode.

 

I also absolutely agree that this ep is why the Flarrow viewing was canceled, and I want to know who pulled the plug. Can you imagine the Q&A that would have occurred as the credits rolled and the lights came on. That reaction would have truly been epic. I am now sad it didn't happen.

Me too! The rage over Oliver being a fucktard would be great to see/hear about

[Morrigan2575]

Unfortunately it seems like she is coming back on - it was mentioned in a post-mortem that we'd be seeing more of her. I think it was the EW article. It wasn't a direct quote though, so I'm holding out hope that they're wrong.

I'm not questioning her return but I don't see Oliver hooking up with Samantha or Laurel after Olicity breakup.

[NumberCruncher]

Uh...nope.

They're all clearly trolling the shippers at this point. They obviously think it's hilarious.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

So how is his relationship with flashback lady going to parallel his relationship with Felicity. The lying? 

[jay741982]

I'm not questioning her return but I don't see Oliver hooking up with Samantha or Laurel after Olicity breakup.

Oliver should be suffering not having the best thing in his life and working to regain her trust but I don't trust these writers

[statsgirl]

They did say that the two relationship will end differently. So maybe he's honest with the flashback woman in the end while he isn't with Felicity

 

I love the MG and Sullivan thought that we would be all "Oh, the sad feels" and the responses are all ragey.

Edited December 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

I'm not questioning her return but I don't see Oliver hooking up with Samantha or Laurel after Olicity breakup.

Same. He will focus on the kid. She will focus on her father. I don't see them giving Oliver or Felicity a new romance.

 

So how is his relationship with flashback lady going to parallel his relationship with Felicity. The lying? 

That is a very good question. I am terrified of the answer. Why would they do secret child/baby mama in the same season they do flashback Poppy?

 

I love the MG and Sullivan thought that we would be all "Oh, the sad feels" and the responses are all ragey.

How quickly the April effect is forgotten.

Edited December 3, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[jay741982]

Why didn't they have a preview for Mid season finale after the episode? Did CW figure a lot of people would be mad and not pay attention lol?

Same. He will focus on the kid. She will focus on her father. I don't see them giving Oliver or Felicity a new romance.

 

That is a very good question. I am terrified of the answer. Why would they do secret child/baby mama in the same season they do flashback Poppy?

 

How quickly the April effect is forgotten.

Lol and the BFS tweet had someone ask if they binged Gilmore Girls!

[Ann Mack]

Marc is losing it because fans don't like what they saw tonight IRT Oliver and Felicty:

 

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/672271218360213505

[NumberCruncher]

I doubt he's upset. I think he's quite pleased with himself. He set out to get a rise out of his Twitter followers and they gave him exactly what he wanted.

I'm debating whether to watch the MSF or not. I was willing to give it a shot even with the speculation re: Felicity getting seriously hurt, but I think if they have Oliver propose to her after this, it may send me into a rage. I cannot deal with S3 levels of relationship angst until 4x22, just to have a half-assed, clunky resolution in the season finale.

Edited December 3, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[catrox14]

HOLY CRAP Guggenheim is just ....LOL what a dumbass

[Morrigan2575]

Prompted by quarks post in the relationship thread.

5. That wedge was bad enough that it screws with Oliver's head, directly leading to the deaths of thousands of people (and possibly that poor donkey), and another dangerous change to the timeline which, if Barry is correct, will lead to more deaths

We all know that the time jump changed the future, instead of SC/CC and our heroes getting killed they won and are happy (for now).

However, they made a point in show about changing the timelines will cause ripples so and Oliver lying to Felicity was a change.

I'm guessing this seismic shift is what's going to lead to the grave but I can't figure out who will end up in it. Normally it would be someone who didn't die in the original timeline but everyone pretty much did. Since that power wave seemed to destroy everything from SC to CC.

Unless the change isn't Arrow related at all and the whole timeline swerve is what leads to Vandal Savage conquering earth in the future? I could see MM collecting the ashes and even knowing Savage's curse leading to very bad things.

I'm just trying to make sense out of it.

[apinknightmare]

I was just thinking... Now that Oliver knows about messing with the timeline and that the original timeline involved a breakup (even though that's questionable, but that's what Barry believed), and he's going to propose to Felicity and she'll (seemingly) get injured in some terrible way after, I wonder if he'll feel like shit on a shoe because he wouldn't have proposed if they'd just broken up, obviously, so him changing the timeline leads to her getting injured.

[Morrigan2575]

True but I wonder if they'll even address it? Who would Oliver confide in? Unless it's unconscious Felicity? Only other person aware of the time shift is Barry.

[statsgirl]

Is Oliver even going to make the connection between changing tghe timeline and what happens in either at the end of the mid season finale or wrt the grave?  Oliver (ie.the writers) has a habit of forgetting causes and just looking at the effects.  Felicity or Diggle are usually the ones to point things out to him  but since they don't know about the timeline change or that there are problems when the timeline gets messed with, is Oliver going to be able to make the connection?

 

I tend to think no since he doesn't feel responsibility for the death of whoever is in the grave, and if he knew his messing with the timeline had caused it, he would.

[tarotx]

Yeah I feel like the Arrow cast will have consequences with the time travel where Barry still hasn't had any real personal consequence. I'm going to need him ate inside over Felicity's injuries and at the Grave site death if it'at anyway connected to the decisions Oliver made based on Barry telling Oliver about erased events.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I can't believe he would still give Felicity his mother's ring after finding out what his mother did. You would think anything that reminded him of her would make him seethe right about now. Not to mention looking at his mother's ring on Felicity's finger would remind him he's a lying liar who lies.

[Chaser]

Wrong Thread. Oops

Edited December 3, 2015 by 10Eleven12