Spoiler Discussion Thread

[BkWurm1]

When Team Arrow goes to Star Labs,...shouldn't they encounter the people who are there often? E2 Wells, Joe and Iris?

What?  Why are you trying to use logic?

[statsgirl]

When Team Arrow goes to Star Labs,...shouldn't they encounter the people who are there often? E2 Wells, Joe and Iris?

Definitely Wells, Cisco and Caitlin, who work there.  Joe and Iris have other jobs in other places so if it's an Arrow case, I can see why they wouldn't appear. 

I can't remember, did Joe meet Ray and Felicity when they showed up to get his suit fixed?

[quarks]

I see this less as an issue of fairness to characters or story, much less logic, and more as an issue of money.

 

When Arrow and Flash were blocking/writing the crossovers last year, they had no idea that Flash would end up being that much more popular than Arrow - I'm sure they hoped, but they didn't know.

 

This year, they know that Flash gets a lot more viewers than Arrow does, both live and post.  So they don't need to sell Flash to Arrow viewers. They need to sell Arrow and LoT to Flash viewers. Thus, what looks like at least five Arrow characters on the Flash half of the crossover (Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Thea and Malcolm) as well as at least three LoT characters (the Hawks and Vandal Savage). Plus, Thea, Malcolm and Damien are the only Arrow regulars who haven't been introduced to the Flash cast yet, so the inclusion of at least the first two makes sense.  

 

On Arrow - they don't need to sell Flash to Arrow viewers: Flash is already more popular, and Arrow viewers have already shown that they like Barry Allen - all of his episodes do well in ratings/total viewers.  And by now, it's fairly safe to say that Arrow viewers have more or less made up their mind about Flash. Berlanti and co do, however, need to sell LoT to Arrow viewers. As discussed elsewhere, the numbers for Ray can be best described as all over the place, and although Sara is popular online, the ratings/total viewers for her episodes haven't always trended with her online popularity. So the idea is to try to sell the Hawks on Arrow as well, in the hopes that loyal Arrow viewers get sucked into their characters and thus not follow the example of AyChihuahua and refuse to follow Ray anywhere.

 

In any case, I still think it's unlikely that any character other than Barry, Oliver and the Hawks will get a lot of screentime, so I'm not sure that getting left out of this particular crossover, assuming they are left out, is a huge deal.

[bijoux]

I hope Oliver gets to put at least four arrows in Vandal Savage who I presume is the one who crashes the dinner. The man finally gets to hoast a dinner party and it's ruined. Poor thing. And stop ragging on his shirt. It's obviously his entertaining-at-home ensamble. He had it for brunch with the Hoffmanns as well.

[wingster55]

Definitely Wells, Cisco and Caitlin, who work there. Joe and Iris have other jobs in other places so if it's an Arrow case, I can see why they wouldn't appear.

I can't remember, did Joe meet Ray and Felicity when they showed up to get his suit fixed?

Good question. No

"Plus, Thea, Malcolm and Damien are the only Arrow regulars who haven't been introduced to the Flash cast yet, so the inclusion of at least the first two makes sense."

Does Damian count as a regular. Regardless Malcolm knows Barry is Flash, and Thea met Cisco. If that counts

Edited November 18, 2015 by wingster55

[SmallScreenDiva]

I hope Oliver gets to put at least four arrows in Vandal Savage who I presume is the one who crashes the dinner. The man finally gets to hoast a dinner party and it's ruined. Poor thing. And stop ragging on his shirt. It's obviously his entertaining-at-home ensamble. He had it for brunch with the Hoffmanns as well.

 

Actually, that's a new shirt, it's long-sleeved. The shirt he wore at brunch with the Hoffmans was the horrible light green checkered one he was wearing last week. And ABSOLUTELY ABHOR both shirts.

[bijoux]

Actually, that's a new shirt, it's long-sleeved. The shirt he wore at brunch with the Hoffmans was the horrible light green checkered one he was wearing last week. And ABSOLUTELY ABHOR both shirts.

Wasn't that one just a long-sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled up? They look the same to me.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Wasn't that one just a long-sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled up? They look the same to me.

 

Nope. Here's the one from the crossover:

 

 

And here's the one from "Lost Souls"

 

 

And here's a GIF from the brunch:

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[bijoux]

Yeah, you're right. I watched the promo while still bleary eyed from sleep.

[Genki]

Aww, I kind of like Grumpy Old Man Oliver form the cross-over last year. As much as I love Masterchef Oliver, I think the world weary hero, stuck baby-sitting a bunch of kids shooting Barry in the back with arrows & telling Cisco not to touch anything the Arrow Cave, lecturing them all about secret identities, is the Oliver character beats that I liked best.

 

Having said that I do like Olvier & Felicity hosting a party, boo on VS interrupting it, and Barry suit has it's own chamber, but I thought there were only 4 polycarbonate biometricaly sealed cases. Did they kick someone's suit out for Barry's? 

 

Whoever buy's Oliver's day-to-day shirts needs to stop, I'm sure if Moira were still with us, this would not happen.

[Menrva]

Aww, I kind of like Grumpy Old Man Oliver form the cross-over last year. As much as I love Masterchef Oliver, I think the world weary hero, stuck baby-sitting a bunch of kids shooting Barry in the back with arrows & telling Cisco not to touch anything the Arrow Cave, lecturing them all about secret identities, is the Oliver character beats that I liked best.

 

Having said that I do like Olvier & Felicity hosting a party, boo on VS interrupting it, and Barry suit has it's own chamber, but I thought there were only 4 polycarbonate biometricaly sealed cases. Did they kick someone's suit out for Barry's? 

 

Whoever buy's Oliver's day-to-day shirts needs to stop, I'm sure if Moira were still with us, this would not happen.

It's like Oliver and Steve Rogers both shop at Costco for their casual wear. Cripes.

 

I'm ok with kicking out Laurel's bondage fetish suit for Barry's.

[quarks]

Does Damian count as a regular. Regardless Malcolm knows Barry is Flash, and Thea met Cisco. If that counts

 

Well, Damien's getting a "Special Appearance By" credit, which means he's getting paid more per episode than at least some of the regular cast members, if not all, and he's getting called a regular by Arrow cast and crew members, so I'd say yes, even if he's only on the show for one year.

 

Malcolm met Barry, yes, and Thea met Cisco, yes, but they met over on Arrow,  not on Flash. The idea here is not to introduce these characters to each other, but to introduce them to the Flash audience, which needs to happen Tuesday nights when Flash viewers tune in.

[kismet]

When Team Arrow goes to Star Labs,...shouldn't they encounter the people who are there often? E2 Wells, Joe and Iris?

If they have time. But I'm sure its not a priority. The Wests will probably be conveniently busy. The masks seem to be the priority in the crosovers, esp now that there are so many.

[bijoux]

When did Thea meet Cisco?

[dtissagirl]

This idea of writing television specifically to highlight each and every character fairly/equally seriously baffles me. Has that ever happened on any tv show, ever?

When did Thea meet Cisco?

 

Technically she didn't meet him, like, they weren't introduced or anything. But she served Cisco a drink when he was at Verdant with Felicity and Roy during last year's crossover.

[Morrigan2575]

Looking at the Flarrow promo it seems like it's clips from both episodes.

 

These are the scenes I believe are from 408

Kendra/Hawkman at the farm 

Malcolm

Because Comics

 

I also think the cry is Hawkgirl not Because Comics. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[bijoux]

Technically she didn't meet him, like, they weren't introduced or anything. But she served Cisco a drink when he was at Verdant with Felicity and Roy during last year's crossover.

Duh. I completely forgot about that scene. I'm ashamed now, especially since it was pretty great what with 'Who's that hottie?', and simultaneous 'Oliver's sister' and 'My ex-girlfriend.' Thanks for jogging my memory.

[apinknightmare]

Having said that I do like Olvier & Felicity hosting a party, boo on VS interrupting it, and Barry suit has it's own chamber, but I thought there were only 4 polycarbonate biometricaly sealed cases. Did they kick someone's suit out for Barry's? 

 

Thea's suit used to be to Oliver's left, so it looks like hers got the boot.

Edited November 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Carrie Ann]

Nope. Here's the one from the crossover:

 

 

I only ask this because it used to come up a lot in fic and fandom in general: is this is the first time Felicity's worn green? Not like a pastel or aqua, but a true green? It's pretty on her.

[bijoux]

I only ask this because it used to come up a lot in fic and fandom in general: is this is the first time Felicity's worn green? Not like a pastel or aqua, but a true green? It's pretty on her.

 

Could be. Whether it is or not, I feel like it's a conscious choice on the part of the costume department. Barry's in his suit when Vandal crashes their shindig, while Oliver's got his bow and quiver, but no suit. So Felicity is representing GA on the color front.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I only ask this because it used to come up a lot in fic and fandom in general: is this is the first time Felicity's worn green? Not like a pastel or aqua, but a true green? It's pretty on her.

 

Seems like. I saw a lot of tweets last night along the lines of "OMG, she's finally wearing HIS green." 

[Morrigan2575]

Apparently twitter is speculating that Felicity is pregnant in 408 (promo shows her drinking water while Oliver has alcohol).  They believe that Felicity gets injured in 409 and loses the baby and I'm guessing this (in their theory) ties into 

 

Linda Ge@lindazge
"Oliver will have an emotional and surprising storyline with Felicity in 408 that will have huge repercussions the rest of the season."

 

 

Thoughts?

[Guest]

I have to admit I don't understand the need to see Felicity wearing GA green because a) I don't see it as 'his' color and b) I'm pretty sure Oliver associates that color with bad things (at least he did). But EBR does look really great in that deep green. 

 

 

Apparently twitter is speculating that Felicity is pregnant in 408 (promo shows her drinking water while Oliver has alcohol).  They believe that Felicity gets injured in 409 and loses the baby and I'm guessing this (in their theory) ties into 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I have one thought: PLEASE NO. 

 

I just think that's about finding out he has a kid. It's going to be emotional for both of them. Oliver especially but Felicity won't be unaffected. 

[Morrigan2575]

I have to admit I don't understand the need to see Felicity wearing GA green because a) I don't see it as 'his' color and b) I'm pretty sure Oliver associates that color with bad things (at least he did). But EBR does look really great in that deep green. 

 

I have one thought: PLEASE NO. 

 

I just think that's about finding out he has a kid. It's going to be emotional for both of them. Oliver especially but Felicity won't be unaffected. 

I think we all thought/figured it was about Baby Mamma Drama and it is a HUGE jump to go from Felicity drinking water (how can they even tell?) to she's pregnant and loses the baby but it certainly made me take another look at that statement...it's sadly plausible.

[Guest]

I think we all thought/figured it was about Baby Mamma Drama and it is a HUGE jump to go from Felicity drinking water (how can they even tell?) to she's pregnant and loses the baby but it certainly made me take another look at that statement...it's sadly plausible.

 

Yeah, it's definitely plausible. O/F finding out they're going to have a baby only to discover he already has a child with someone else. That would definitely up the emotional stakes. Even more so if she went on to lose the baby after she's injured in 409 or whatever. I just don't know if they'd go there so soon? I don't want them to either. 

 

And yeah, the leap from drinking water to pregnancy is a pretty damn big one. LOL.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

Well, we know they've filmed with baby mama, so the likelihood of that being the "surprising and emotional" story they're talking about is pretty high. Could be that Felicity just doesn't like whiskey or whatever that is - I'd choose water, too. It is sadly plausible though, and it doesn't bode well for future dramatics if Oliver and Felicity lose a baby right around the time he finds out he has a kid. 

 

I'm going to hold fast to Felicity just not being a whiskey drinker, and the kid being the story. 

[AyChihuahua]

Occam's Razor...we KNOW Baby Mama and A kid are going to appear, because we saw them filming.  We don't know that it's really Oliver's kid or much else, but we definitely know that the woman who at least claimed to be pregnant with his kid and a kid of appx the right age will appear.

 

People get really elaborate speculating re this show, but it almost always turns out not to be surprising.  Moira died, not surprising.  Sara died, not surprising.  Oliver didn't really die, not surprising.  Oliver wasn't really evil, not surprising.  Oliver didn't stay in the LOA, not surprising (there were a surprisingly large number of people who thought Oliver was going to stay in/be RAG in S4, which I thought, turns out correctly, was crazy).  Etc.  Therefore, I am 99.99% sure it's Quentin in the grave (not surprising), and that Felicity is not pregnant.  For one thing, the loss of a pregnancy is too RL sad for this show, plus it's so early in their relationship for her to be pregnant.  Also, LBR, Felicity does not screw around with birth control.  I am willing to bet big bucks she is a birth control implant kind of girl.

 

And unfortunately, I think the kid probably is Oliver's, and will be around a bit.  It doesn't have to be a total mess, though...Friends had two main characters have kids, including with each other, and we ALMOST NEVER saw the kids.  He can just mention seeing him every so often...if they bring the kid on in any kind of real capacity they are absolute idiots.  I'm guessing he'll have a decent amount of screentime this season, and then he'll fade away a good bit, like Booth's oldest kid on Bones.

[bijoux]

it doesn't bode well for future dramatics if Oliver and Felicity lose a baby right around the time he finds out he has a kid. 

Could you expand on this?

She could be drinking martini, just not out of a martini glass. We know she drinks those.

[Morrigan2575]

Well, we know they've filmed with baby mama, so the likelihood of that being the "surprising and emotional" story they're talking about is pretty high. Could be that Felicity just doesn't like whiskey or whatever that is - I'd choose water, too. It is sadly plausible though, and it doesn't bode well for future dramatics if Oliver and Felicity lose a baby right around the time he finds out he has a kid. 

 

I'm going to hold fast to Felicity just not being a whiskey drinker, and the kid being the story. 

the sheer level of angst that would be derived from Felicity having a miscarriage very close to when Oliver finds out he has a child is staggering.  It's actually quite horrible to think about especially if they took it to 11 with the old - miscarriage makes it impossible/difficult to get have children in the future story.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[looptab]

I don't know how likely that is, but, suppose it is what happens..wouldn't it be too much, too soon? I mean first the proposal, now a pregnancy..why burn through so much potential story in less than 10 epidodes?

[AyChihuahua]

the sheer level of angst that would be derived from Felicity having a miscarriage very close to when Oliver finds out he has a child is staggering.  It's actually quite horrible to think about expecially if they took it to 11 with the old - miscarriage makes it impossible/difficult to get have children in the future.

They keep swearing it's a lighter season.  Losing a wanted pregnancy is not light.

 

Honestly, it is something that works in fanfic (there's a fanfic with this exact plot right now), but not in a tv show that wants viewers.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't know how likely that is, but, suppose it is what happens..wouldn't it be too much, too soon? I mean first the proposal, now a pregnancy..why burn through so much potential story in less than 10 epidodes?

Because this is Arrow?  That logic will never work on this show because they are constantly blowing through stories that most shows would hold back on until S5 or later.

[apinknightmare]

Could you expand on this?

She could be drinking martini, just not out of a martini glass. We know she drinks those.

 

Well, @morrigan2575 just did it for me. :)

[SmallScreenDiva]

Apparently twitter is speculating that Felicity is pregnant in 408 (promo shows her drinking water while Oliver has alcohol).  They believe that Felicity gets injured in 409 and loses the baby and I'm guessing this (in their theory) ties into 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

I like it, actually. I like the potential for conflict and relationship drama. IF done right, of course. I can imagine Felicity being a little hesitant about it, just judging from her reaction to the mention of kids in Ivy Town. I can see Oliver being over the moon (I think he's already named the twins in his head). They spend an ep or two discussing it and realize they both really, really want it. Could even push Oliver to finally propose. Felicity gets hurt in winter finale, loses the baby. Cue the angst. Oliver finds out about Baby Mama, hides it from Felicity for an ep because he doesn't want to hurt her, but because they are adults he finally tells her. Etc. 

[apinknightmare]

the sheer level of angst that would be derived from Felicity having a miscarriage very close to when Oliver finds out he has a child is staggering.  It's actually quite horrible to think about especially if they took it to 11 with the old - miscarriage makes it impossible/difficult to get have children in the future story.

 

My exact worries about it.

[AyChihuahua]

That would be much darker than last season, which everyone complained was too dark.  I am positive they are not going there.  I mean think about it, The Flash does a King Kong ripoff and has a landshark, while Arrow has the main couple lose a wanted pregnancy?  Nah.

[kismet]

Apparently twitter is speculating that Felicity is pregnant in 408 (promo shows her drinking water while Oliver has alcohol). They believe that Felicity gets injured in 409 and loses the baby and I'm guessing this (in their theory) ties into

Thoughts?

I think it's a plausible theory. But I don't think its gonna happen. It's way too fanfic like. I think it will just be the secret kid reveal. But I believe that reveal will lead to some differences of opinion on when & if they want future children. Which is organic relationship drama & baby stall.

Also there are alcoholic drinks served in those size glasses, so without watching episode hard to say if that drink dtill supports their theory.

The only definite I think is a guarantee is FS is getting hurt in 409, but we already knew that.

[dtissagirl]

The amounts of DO NOT WANT I have for a miscarriage storyline are astronomical. Ugh.

[GirlvsTV]

I tend to think IF there is something Felicity/baby related coming up it's more likely they have a pregnancy scare but that she isn't actually pregnant in 3x08. That could be a catalyst for an Oliver/Felicity convo about whether or not they both want kids, which I could see being a 'yes, but not right now' resolution. That might also reassure Oliver that they both do want the same things (something he may have doubted after the premier which could have caused him to pause his proposal plans) and then he decides to finally pop the question in 3x09.

It would also sort of foreshadow the whole upcoming 'surprise kid' storyline.

I just don't think these writers would go near touching a real life storyline as serious as a miscarriage.

[looptab]

Isn't Baby Mama in the crossover? Why foreshadow?

Edited November 18, 2015 by looptab

[tarotx]

Well not being able to have a baby is something that is part of the Black Canary story and it affects her emotionally-so it's not a stretch the creatives could go here with Oliver's show girlfriend.

I hope they don't go there though...

the sheer level of angst that would be derived from Felicity having a miscarriage very close to when Oliver finds out he has a child is staggering. It's actually quite horrible to think about especially if they took it to 11 with the old - miscarriage makes it impossible/difficult to get have children in the future story.

[kismet]

Also if the theory holds then FS would have to know that she is pregnant if she is consciously choosing to drink water. I still don't think it's water. But anyway, if it is then when would she find out? At end of 407? The crossover seems pretty full and hawk/vs related. I doubt they would spare a moment to have FS pee on a stick or get blood work drawn.

Plus they have done a miscarriage plot with babymama, I doubt they would do it again so soon to the reveal & esp because this one would devastate OQ.

The only person that might miscarry this season may be Poppy and that would be only if they try to emulate the comics, which I don't think is their plan with poppy.

[Morrigan2575]

Isn't Baby Mama in the crossover? Why foreshadow?

As far as I know, she's in 410

[looptab]

As far as I know, she's in 410

Oh, so the consensus is still on 410? I thought given the hospital spoilers etc we had fallen back to 408. Damn shooting schedule!

[GirlvsTV]

Isn't Baby Mama in the crossover? Why foreshadow?

Yeah, I was going with her showing up in 4x10.

[apinknightmare]

Also if the theory holds then FS would have to know that she is pregnant if she is consciously choosing to drink water. I still don't think it's water. But anyway, if it is then when would she find out? At end of 407? The crossover seems pretty full and hawk/vs related. I doubt they would spare a moment to have FS pee on a stick or get blood work drawn.

I doubt that Felicity is pregnant, but we wouldn't need to see any of this. All we'd need is a moment between O&F where he puts his hand on her belly and asks her when they're gonna tell the team.

[Carrie Ann]

To be honest, if we were still stuck with only MG as showrunner, I absolutely think he would go to the miscarriage place because he seems to be a Worst is Best kinda guy when it comes to drama, and he has zero sensitivity. But because WM is involved now, I feel like they're moderating a bit more on these things. And not to generalize, but men are perhaps not as sensitive to miscarriage and issues surrounding fertility as women are. So I fully believe MG would be gung-ho to do this, but I bet some women in the writers' room would be like, "uh, no, that's too far, actually." Or at least, I hope that's the case.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Chaser]

All this over a glass of (maybe) water?

 

Do not want miscarriage or pregnancy at all. I don't trust them to handle that right. I would be alright with a pregnancy scare and that's about it.

[Primal Slayer]

Lol what is this fanfiction? I don't see them making Felicity pregnant, if they do I will be truly surprised. Hell now maybe the baby is the one in the grave. 

[kismet]

I doubt that Felicity is pregnant, but we wouldn't need to see any of this. All we'd need is a moment between O&F where he puts his hand on her belly and asks her when they're gonna tell the team.

True, but they'd have to show FS having some inclination, unless of course the hospital miscarriage is the big surprise reveal. They'll either give us subtle nonverbal hints to maximize the hospital reveal or they'll have it be something only FS knows.

Honestly, I don't think she's pregnant. And if they do go through with winter finale proposal I really don't want it muddled with a possible baby or cuz of the campaign. I want a pure and honest proposal based on lie and nothing else as a extenuating circumstance or factor.