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Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
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writersblock51

writersblock51

I think Felicity would be helping Diggle with his HIVE stuff - and who knows, maybe she will at some point.  She was more than happy to help him in S1 when he first had a lead... 

 

It's contrived that Diggle is shutting Oliver and Felicity out. He's known for over a year about HIVE.  Why isn't he talking to either or both of them about it?  He spouted 'family' when talking to Laurel about it.  It's just contrived story telling.

 

I think Curtis working with the team will provide opportunities for the Diggle and Felicity friendship to get back on solid footing.  Though I'm still baffled why he's ticked at her.  Again, more contrived plots.

 

2 episodes of them not talking at all seems to be it - they will be talking tomorrow night. 

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Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

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bijoux

bijoux

I finally watched Laurel and Nyssa's scene. As far as Laurel's scenes go, it's not the worst. She's still completely wrong and Nyssa is 150% in the right, but at least she's calmed down some and is softer in that scene than she is with any other character. Hell, if I hadn't known what her and Sara's relationship was like, I might even be buying that she believes in the spirit argument. Altohugh she's just ruined all of Nyssa's fond memories of milkshakes and fries, hasn't she?

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Right now, it seems like Diggle will have his own HIVE story and Felicity will have her own PT/Curtis story.  I wonder if that's why they're giving Felicity a new BFF, because Diggle is going to be off on his own.

 

I've always enjoyed the Diggle/Felicity friendship.  I'm not sure how I feel about the idea of losing it so they both can have separated storylines of their own.

 

I know how I feel about it and it's PO'd. Separate storylines great, artificial/forced separation to make room for new and not-so-loved characters, not so much. 

 

This show struck gold when it hit upon the unlikely crime fighting team of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. What's more, OTA worked spectacularly together or in any of its various permutations. There's a zing and an energy to a scene comprised of any of the core trio, that has yet to be replicated by any other members of the Arrow cast.

 

Now, while I'm convinced the show runners know just how lucky they were to have stumbled upon that kind of chemistry as demonstrated by WM's profuse praise during SDCC, I'm worried now that it was all just lip service to keep the OTA part of the audience happy. I understand that (as much as I hate change) tv shows, like life, cannot remain stagnant and must evolve and grow but there's a way to do that, so that the core original trio and their unique and very-earned bond can be honoured. 

 

Instead, it seems the EP's are willing to rip OTA apart again and again and force other characters in, in a effort to have those characters benefit from some of the affection that the audience has for OTA. What makes it all worse, is when the writing is so bad that its made obvious that my favourite characters are suffering only so that others may get a chance to shine. RP and his entire 'hero arc' was why Diggle and Felicity barely shared any scenes last seasons, so that Felicity could be cut off not just from Oliver but from her built in support system in the team. LL and her 'hero arc' are why Diggle suddenly couldn't go out in the field and why Oliver chose an untrained lawyer instead of an army veteran to accompany him on his mission.  

 

I suffered through that level of insanity in s3,  but that's not going to work, for me at least, this time around. We're two episodes in and while I can buy that Diggle is still upset with Oliver and that some of those feelings may spill over to his relationship with Felicity, I cannot believe the level of BS that would be necessary to accept that after keeping it a secret from O and F for years, he would immediately turn around and spill a 'family' secret to LL. There's no way that years of a friendship, honed by shared sacrifice and danger could possibly compare to 5 months fighting at the side of a woman who frequently treated him as just the help before, especially when it seems he couldn't be bothered to even share what had transpired with Thea and the pit. 

 

Just to be clear my problems in this scenario are not just limited to LL. I'm just as worried that for Felicity, last years Palmer's Island is going to become residence on Echo's ...(supply the alliterative geographical option of your choice) The continued emphasis on Mr Terrific being an addition for Felicity 'to talk to' didn't really gain any traction with me, until the first two episodes aired and I realised that no one in the lair, other than Oliver bothered to talk to her.

 

With any other show runners, I'd wave this concern off but after the lengths that they went to in s3 to make RP and LL relevant, I'm a bit worried. They seem unable to achieve the level of balance necessary to introduce new characters and relationships while still honouring the old, hell most of the time, I doubt whether they have the will to even attempt that.  It's as though they cannot fathom how to expand the Arrow universe and the characters that inhabit it, without destroying some of the old and for me, as an OTA fan that is a worrying thing. 

 

Yes, I'm a huge Olicity fan, but that is not the only reason I tune in. I want powerful and well told stories about characters I care about, if you can't make other characters interesting without tearing down my faves then that says something about you and proposed additions.  As always, YMMV.

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Guest

Guest

I know how I feel about it and it's PO'd. Separate storylines great, artificial/forced separation to make room for new and not-so-loved characters, not so much. 

 

This show struck gold when it hit upon the unlikely crime fighting team of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. What's more, OTA worked spectacularly together or in any of its various permutations. There's a zing and an energy to a scene comprised of any of the core trio, that has yet to be replicated by any other members of the Arrow cast.

 

Now, while I'm convinced the show runners know just how lucky they were to have stumbled upon that kind of chemistry as demonstrated by WM's profuse praise during SDCC, I'm worried now that it was all just lip service to keep the OTA part of the audience happy. I understand that (as much as I hate change) tv shows, like life, cannot remain stagnant and must evolve and grow but there's a way to do that, so that the core original trio and their unique and very-earned bond can be honoured. 

 

I'm convinced it's intentional too. Diggle keeping secrets from the team and working on his own finding out about H.I.V.E and Felicity off having scenes with Curtis removes them from the group entirely. Already Felicity feels a little bit separated from the team considering no one but Oliver has said a word to her and we're only 2 episodes in.

 

I'm too cynical to believe this is not on purpose. Gotta make the others fit better somehow. Now I understand where those Oliver/Thea/Laurel scenes that someone asked MG about on tumblr will be coming in future...

 

Of course, I'm gonna wait and judge but I don't like the feeling that they're purposefully messing up OTA.

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Balaclava

Balaclava

I know how I feel about it and it's PO'd. Separate storylines great, artificial/forced separation to make room for new and not-so-loved characters, not so much. 

 

This show struck gold when it hit upon the unlikely crime fighting team of Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. What's more, OTA worked spectacularly together or in any of its various permutations. There's a zing and an energy to a scene comprised of any of the core trio, that has yet to be replicated by any other members of the Arrow cast.

 

They tried (Roy, Sara) they keep trying, still doesn't work and i have to say it never will imo. Although people tend to accept and understand (and even like this chars) why the eps chose to do this, in the end just circles back to OTA, if you so much hint there will be OTA scenes in any given episode automatically people forget who else is or isn't in the team. Today is one of those days, twitter is blowing up with OTA tweets 

 

Now, while I'm convinced the show runners know just how lucky they were to have stumbled upon that kind of chemistry as demonstrated by WM's profuse praise during SDCC, I'm worried now that it was all just lip service to keep the OTA part of the audience happy. I understand that (as much as I hate change) tv shows, like life, cannot remain stagnant and must evolve and grow but there's a way to do that, so that the core original trio and their unique and very-earned bond can be honoured. 

 

There is a way, there should be a way, and yet what we get is always the same. Keep FS/D apart from each other, keep OQ/D apart and this only happens because we know/they know that other scenes with others chars will always fail in comparison. The eps talk about OTA to keep us going but fail to deliver with the writing and scenes with OTA and by ep20/21 they bait those who quit back in with lines like "this started we the 3 of us it's time we go back to that". Shame they forget that no matter who comes in or out OTA should always be the core of the team and honored because they were the beginning of it all.

 

Instead, it seems the EP's are willing to rip OTA apart again and again and force other characters in, in a effort to have those characters benefit from some of the affection that the audience has for OTA. What makes it all worse, is when the writing is so bad that its made obvious that my favourite characters are suffering only so that others may get a chance to shine. RP and his entire 'hero arc' was why Diggle and Felicity barely shared any scenes last seasons, so that Felicity could be cut off not just from Oliver but from her built in support system in the team. LL and her 'hero arc' are why Diggle suddenly couldn't go out in the field and why Oliver chose an untrained lawyer instead of an army veteran to accompany him on his mission.  

 

The fact that in order to make the audience accept other characters eps need to rip OTA apart should say a lot, it says a lot. Problem is that for OTA fans makes the process of accepting others in the team much more difficult, to some it never happens because they become instinctively more protective of OTA.  

 

I suffered through that level of insanity in s3,  but that's not going to work, for me at least, this time around. We're two episodes in and while I can buy that Diggle is still upset with Oliver and that some of those feelings may spill over to his relationship with Felicity, I cannot believe the level of BS that would be necessary to accept that after keeping it a secret from O and F for years, he would immediately turn around and spill a 'family' secret to LL. There's no way that years of a friendship, honed by shared sacrifice and danger could possibly compare to 5 months fighting at the side of a woman who frequently treated him as just the help before, especially when it seems he couldn't be bothered to even share what had transpired with Thea and the pit. 

 

If Arrow made sense, the 1st person that Diggle would tell about HIVE would be Felicity, she already knew he was looking at his brother assassination, she helped him investigate, they're friends. Arrow showed me that FS/D are friends didn't told me, and this is one of the biggest problems with Arrow and certain characters and SL's (tell not show vs show not tell) 

I'm having a really hard time trying to understand within logic why is Diggle not talking to Felicity, zero not even a "Hi", these 2 "died" together FFS, only explanation i can come up with is the eps don't want too because them his convo with Laurel would make even less sense

 

Just to be clear my problems in this scenario are not just limited to LL. I'm just as worried that for Felicity, last years Palmer's Island is going to become residence on Echo's ...(supply the alliterative geographical option of your choice) The continued emphasis on Mr Terrific being an addition for Felicity 'to talk to' didn't really gain any traction with me, until the first two episodes aired and I realised that no one in the lair, other than Oliver bothered to talk to her.

 

I think at this point is a given the real reason why Curtis is there, sure FS needs someone to have scenes with at PT but going by Echo interview soon he'll be helping the team too and becoming a hero, again my money is on FS pushing him in that direction and yet propping another char when her story line gets forgotten in limbo, this should be about her and in the end it will be about him. I'm tired of that tbh and i'm afraid this is just another way to remove her more from the team scenes

 

With any other show runners, I'd wave this concern off but after the lengths that they went to in s3 to make RP and LL relevant, I'm a bit worried. They seem unable to achieve the level of balance necessary to introduce new characters and relationships while still honouring the old, hell most of the time, I doubt whether they have the will to even attempt that.  It's as though they cannot fathom how to expand the Arrow universe and the characters that inhabit it, without destroying some of the old and for me, as an OTA fan that is a worrying thing. 

 

Arrow needs to stop writing so much for spin-off characters that take away from what they should be writing for the regular cast, a lot of time is wasted telling SL's about chars that are moving to another show, and Arrow regular cast suffers because of it. They're now filming 4X09 and every other BTS pic is about crossovers and chars from others shows, and here i sit waiting for the promise that this is year of Diggle and Felicity to happen, or even for me to see some hints that is happening

 

Yes, I'm a huge Olicity fan, but that is not the only reason I tune in. I want powerful and well told stories about characters I care about, if you can't make other characters interesting without tearing down my faves then that says something about you and proposed additions.  As always, YMMV.

 

I'm an Olicity fan too, but before that i was an Oliver/Diggle/Felicity & OTA fan, they're the reason i watch, and i need this show to write SL's for them, decent and compelling stories that pull me in, tearing down my faves and what makes this show the best version of itself to make other things work does nothing for me and honestly does nothing for the show either. S3 left a very bad feeling, but it's only been 2 episodes and i'm trying to have some patience and see where all of this is going, i hope S4 turns out to be a fantastic season. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

There are two ways to write this:

 

One way would be to use Diggle's anger at Oliver and apparently Felicity to somewhat establish relationships with other characters on the Team (e.g. Diggle with Laurel, Felicity with Curtis) in order to build a better, more cohesive team when Diggle finally forgives them in hopefully the next episode or two.

 

The other way would be to use the anger to keep them apart most of the season as Oliver was pushing Felicity away last season to set up Ray.  No prizes for which way I would prefer.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

LOVE Felicity.

 

Do you think that's how Double Down finds Felicity and Curtis?  He tracks his card to Palmer Tech?

 

(Diggle was so (non-verbally) mouthy to Felicity, I'm surprised she hasn't smacked him before this.)

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Guest

Guest

I'm guessing the sneak peek of Felicity is good? That's all I need to know.

 

Damn, I deserve a medal for my restraint in not watching these sneak peeks. Haha.

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Belinea

Belinea

(Diggle was so (non-verbally) mouthy to Felicity, I'm surprised she hasn't smacked him before this.)

I have to admit that even though I get Diggle being angry, I don't particularly like how he is behaving. I just want to say 'Get over it'. I know what Oliver did was bad but Diggle isn't even willing to listen to the guy and then say 'Alright, I don't trust you but we can still coexist in a friendly manner here'. I somehow expected Diggle to be more levelheaded. 

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Guest

Guest

I'm gonna give Diggle a pass for now but if this carries on for longer than 2-3 more episodes, I'll be pissed because I know they're writing against his character. 

 

I don't like Diggle being pissy at Felicity though. WTF is that about?

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

I'm gonna give Diggle a pass for now but if this carries on for longer than 2-3 more episodes, I'll be pissed because I know they're writing against his character. 

 

I don't like Diggle being pissy at Felicity though. WTF is that about?

I am comfortable that after this episode their working relationship will be repaired.  Their personal relationship will probable take awhile longer, but it will be much less obvious without the sniping.  Plus Oliver does end up at Digg's house soon, which seems promising. 

 

And agreed, he shouldn't really be angry at Felicity.  That is a very high school girl-reaction.

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

I am comfortable that after this episode their working relationship will be repaired.  Their personal relationship will probable take awhile longer, but it will be much less obvious without the sniping.  Plus Oliver does end up at Digg's house soon, which seems promising. 

 

And agreed, he shouldn't really be angry at Felicity.  That is a very high school girl-reaction.

 

Yeah, I think this episode is where the thaw begins. They'll learn to put their personal stuff aside while out in the field which is necessary. The personal side will take longer but you're right, there's a dinner scene at Diggle's in 406, I think, so fingers crossed this improves by then.

 

The annoyance at Felicity feels out of nowhere to me, especially as she was helping the team all summer. They 'died' in each other's arms too! Badly done, Diggle! 

Edited by Guest
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SleepDeprived

SleepDeprived

Aw, Chloe and Oliver. :)

 

The OTA clip was fantastic! I can't wait for more of Diggle/Felicity/Oliver (which I can't watch live 'cause I'm getting home late). I'm sure they'll be the highlight of this episode for me. I've missed them.

 

LOVE Felicity.

 

Do you think that's how Double Down finds Felicity and Curtis?  He tracks his card to Palmer Tech?

 

Yeah, that's probably how Martouf Double Down connects Felicity to Green Arrow. The comic preview of GA vs DDown because of a robbery likely happens first (with Oliver probably getting injured during the scene in the promo where DDown is on the ground and reaching to his neck while GA points a bow at him) and then Felicity dressing down Diggle/Oliver and then DDown following Felicity to Palmer Tech with Curtis then Felicity/Curtis escaping to the elevator then going to the basement lair and Felicity handling the machine gun against DDown then GA gets there and falls against some shelves while fighting DDown. Wow. I think I've seen a good portion of the episode in the promos already. If DDown gets away at the end, or tells DDarhk about Felicity/Palmer Tech as GA's accomplice/hideout, then perhaps that's the "Oh No" reaction that SA said about this episode at the Nocking Point party?

 

I wasn't worried about Nyssa before, don't really think the show will kill her tonight, but now I am after that Malcolm/Thea clip. 'Cause, yeah, that "life for a life" spiel is raising red flags for me about Nyssa. Then again, Nyssa could go off on a trip to the mountains, for Sara, to try to find this mystic that can help after a person has been revived by the Pit, which is why KL hasn't filmed since this episode.

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kismet

kismet

Sneak peak with Oliver, Feliciy and Diggle! Use your loud voice Felicity!

http://www.tvguide.com/news/arrow-season-4-video-felicity-oliver-diggle/

Finally a preview I actually want to watch for this episode!

 

I feel so rewarded by the universe right now. THANKS FOR EXISTING, FELICITY.

It was rewarded double for me because the ad was even good. Got to watch an acoustic version of "defying gravity" with Aaron Tveit. So I felt very rewarded. Plus the clip was great. Here's hoping FS has some way to actually lock them down in the lair.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Yeah, here's hoping Nyssa just takes off to find this sage, which will probably be a waste since Oliver calls in Constantine in a couple of weeks. I guess maybe they might've needed to get her out of the way so that Laurel could be by Sara's side or whatever.

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Chaser

Chaser

(edited)

JB's quote about Nyssa doing something shocking kind of makes me think it isn't Sara killing Nyssa, but Nyssa choosing to trade her life.

Edited by 10Eleven12
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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

JB tends to overstate stuff.  It could just be Nyssa attacking Malcolm (which she seems to do, because in one shot they each have a sword and in the next he has both their swords), or even not agreeing at all to resurrect Sara.

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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

Yeah, I think Nyssa's a goner, and my guess is it's a mystical life-for-life thing, but not something I think they're going to know about in advance, because I don't think any of them would allow it to go forward. It'll be something like "the person they love the most" dies or something--or maybe it'll be like Sara is momentarily Rogue and she grabs Nyssa and absorbs her lifeforce!--and that's (another reason) why they'll never bring anyone else back. Anyway, this is a super great plan, so glad we're maybe going to lose another awesome character for no reason, can't wait for tonight.

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SleepDeprived

SleepDeprived

^Love your enthusiasm! It's such superb writing, ain't it?

 

Or, if they want to destroy Nyssa/Sara

to make way for a possible Sara/Ray (blerg!) on LoT

, Nyssa could try to kill Sara since whatever came out of the Pit isn't her Sara but something different in the soul and she doesn't want Sara to hurt anymore/wants her to have peace. And the spoiler dialogue is Laurel to Nyssa to stay away from her/Sara/her family.

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kismet

kismet

Maybe the shocking twist is that there is not twist at all. Right now it seems pretty straightforward. I do agree that JB oversells a lot in his interviews. Its part of his charm.

 

I'm still in the camp that Nyssa will not be killed off. But part of me wonders that if Nyssa were to be killed it would be in the Constantine episode as either the sacrifice that saves her soul or the final straw that causes her to lose it all the way.

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calliope1975

calliope1975

Yeah, I think Nyssa's a goner, and my guess is it's a mystical life-for-life thing, but not something I think they're going to know about in advance, because I don't think any of them would allow it to go forward. It'll be something like "the person they love the most" dies or something--or maybe it'll be like Sara is momentarily Rogue and she grabs Nyssa and absorbs her lifeforce!--and that's (another reason) why they'll never bring anyone else back. Anyway, this is a super great plan, so glad we're maybe going to lose another awesome character for no reason, can't wait for tonight.

 

I'm having bad feelings about Nyssa's fate as well. I hope I'm wrong, but something big has to happen to show why this was a terribad idea and make it unusable for every other character TIIC have killed off. But hey, if they do kill Nyssa off, she can always return as he heretofore unmentioned twin or triplet! Or in flashbacks, I suppose.

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AyChihuahua

AyChihuahua

Life for a life doesn't work for me as a never-use-the-Pit again thing, bc Oliver would happily, cheerfully, and with a dumb smile on his face trade his life for Thea (again), Felicity, or probably Digg.  Or baby Sara.  It has to be more.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

I think the life for a life thing isn't a willing trade so much as a murder? Like, you don't get to pick. You come out of that pit, and someone? They're gonna die. Top that off with the pit person being off for who knows how long (and maybe not all the way right again, even with someone like Constantine helping), and I can see why all that would add up to NEVER AGAIN.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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Life for a life doesn't work for me as a never-use-the-Pit again thing, bc Oliver would happily, cheerfully, and with a dumb smile on his face trade his life for Thea (again), Felicity, or probably Digg. Or baby Sara. It has to be more.

That would only work if you could pick and choose the death. Most likely the trade-off is an unknown, so it could be anyone.
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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

So much to love about that Original Team Arrow clip. Well, first, Felicity is patching up Oliver, yay!!! Don't think I saw that in Season 3 ever. Then the loud voice! I love Felicity's loud voice. Rarely used but damn effective. Oliver's reaction in the end with the hand and his soft "yes" is precious! 

 

Am I missing something something though? I'm not sure I'm getting any annoyance from Digg at all in that clip. In fact, he seemed rather contrite and tells Felicity's she's right and it won't happen again. 

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calliope1975

calliope1975

That would only work if you could pick and choose the death. Most likely the trade-off is an unknown, so it could be anyone.

 

I'd love for MM to flippantly remark that so and so had died for Thea, like, no big deal. Did you guys not know that part? Dramatic shrug.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Maybe it's not a life for a life, but a soul for a soul. Sara comes out of the LP without a soul.  The only way for her ever to have a chance of regaining her humanity is for someone else to sacrifice their soul, which would be transferred to Sara.  Even then, she still needs Constantine to bring her all the way back.

Edited by tv echo
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kismet

kismet

Life for a life doesn't work for me as a never-use-the-Pit again thing, bc Oliver would happily, cheerfully, and with a dumb smile on his face trade his life for Thea (again), Felicity, or probably Digg.  Or baby Sara.  It has to be more.

I think somebody here or in the comics thread stated that the pits dry up when they are used to resurrect the dead. Taking this angle would be a good idea for the show. It doesn't add another layer of dramatic angst, it simply takes away the dipping back to life option. No pit, no resurrection.

 

Since Ras, MM & TQ were never officially dead, they could dip as long as they wanted with less ill effects because their souls were intact when they dip. Sadly, I think TQ will not be as affected by SL because her soul was not lost. On a character level, I don't want TQ affected for long. But I enjoy the story potential & WH's acting in it, which is why I would be sad if there was a quick fix. SL was dead, her soul had moved to wherever it goes depending upon one's or the show's beliefs. So her resurrection will be worse & problematic because she is an empty vessel in which a lot of bad things can enter - which is why Constantine is probably needed for her and not TQ.

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