Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Sakura12]

I think should just let Rip be the one that brings her back because he knows she's a future legend and is needed to fight Vandal Savage. Of course then they would've just brought her back in the big crossover. Bringing her back on Arrow shows me that they know they made a big mistake killing Sara off and have to bend over backwards to bring her back.

[Primal Slayer]

They should've just had Rip, rip her out of the past. It's a show about time travel after all.

[AyChihuahua]

I think should just let Rip be the one that brings her back because he knows she's a future legend and is needed to fight Vandal Savage. Of course then they would've just brought her back in the big crossover. Bringing her back on Arrow shows me that they know they made a big mistake killing Sara off and have to bend over backwards to bring her back.

Having Rip be the one to bring her back makes so much more sense. He could have done it right when she was shot, making it unnecessary for anyone to carry around a corpse that would basically be bone soup at this point. Also, I don't see how this makes Laurel look good, but Rip has an excellent reason to do it.

I am, however, absolutely LOVING the pretzels they're having to tie the show into to fix a huge unforced error, that they just thought they were so awesome to do. Guggie is a turd.

[apinknightmare]

This is probably an unpopular opinion here, but I don't think they're admitting that killing Sara off was a mistake, not really. If they were, I think she'd be staying on Arrow. They're bringing her back and shipping her off to another show. 

 

If I had to guess, TPTB didn't realize that Sara had the fanbase that she does, and decided to cash in on that by bringing her back and sending her off to LoT - a show that they desperately want people to watch - hoping those fans would follow Sara over there. 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think having one Black Canary as a regular on Arrow makes sense, so I really don't see how they could fit in two regulars.

[Primal Slayer]

They needed a well known female on the show so it is logical to bring Sara back and use her. It wasn't going to be Laurel or Thea and Flash hadn't introduced any female heroes to use.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, people were upset over Sara's death, but the ratings for the season were up overall. I just don't think they see killing her off as a mistake - I think they saw the outcry and desire to have her back and decided to use that as an opportunity to gain a following for their new baby. 

[Sakura12]

They were trying to do an ATOM show, Sara wasn't part of the talks until later when it changed to a Team Show. 

 

As I said if it was just LoT, why not just bring her back on the big crossover episode? Why bring her back in the beginning of Arrow and focus the storyline on her. That makes it especially funny to me since again they wanted to do an ATOM show and he's barely mentioned for the upcoming episodes. 

[apinknightmare]

 

They were trying to do an ATOM show, Sara wasn't part of the talks until later when it changed to a Team Show.

 

That doesn't negate my point?

 

Why wouldn't they bring her back on Arrow? The majority of her family's storyline last season was about her. Her fanbase grew there, and those people will be anxious to see her back, and will follow her and her storyline over to LoT. I just don't see how bringing her back for another show is admitting a mistake. If the LoT opportunity hadn't presented itself, what are the chances that she would've been LPed? Pretty small. 

[Starfish35]

Didn't the ratings take a dive after her death? It seeme like I remember a big drop for the half-hours for the episode right after her death. The ratings didn't really pick up again until the crossover IIRC. But this is probably a discussion for the ratings thread.

As to why Laurel would bring back Sara now, I think kismet nailed it the other day. Laurel probably doesn't know how Thea was brought back yet. and as soon as she finds out, she'll talk Thea and Malcolm into helping her bring Sara back. That's almost certainly Laurel standing beside the pit in the trailer when Sara comes out, and probably Thea standing beside her.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[tarotx]

I don't see why Laurel bringing Sara back is a bad thing. I mean it probably will be bad for her but the want, I can't see it as bad. If Laurel isn't religious why not want your sister not dead? Especially if she finds out about Thea being LPed and here's Thea alive and kicking. I think Thea will not tell people about the LP side affects. I don't know if she sees them as bad. I think they be  played as a "mental illness" story. I know Sara and Laurel aren't close but the show likes to pretend that isn't the case.

 

And Rip taking Sara from the past affects everything unless he were to bring her back to the moment of death. Him LPing a newly dead Sara would be idea for Sara but I think the show runners want Crazy Sara potential. And they want it to affect Laurel and Quinton as well. They consider Lance family drama important to the show.

Edited September 14, 2015 by tarotx

[Coop33]

From the interview with KC posted in the Media thread:

 

Are you going to miss the bonding scenes you had between Laurel and Nyssa last season?

Absolutely! Katrina's awesome and I love working with her. I'm hoping she'll come back. It's still television, anything can happen. As of right now, [working with Merlyn] is what's happening, but I have a feeling there will be more to the story

 

I feel like this response lends more credence to the theory that Nyssa dies. :(

 

And Rip taking Sara from the past affects everything unless he were to bring her back to the moment of death. 

 

This is actually how I hoped they would bring her back. I thought it would be quite poetic if he took her from the moment right before she died and eventually had to take her back.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't see why Laurel bringing Sara back is a bad thing. I mean it probably will be bad for her but the want, I can't see it as bad. If Laurel isn't religious why not want your sister not dead? Especially if she finds out about Thea being LPed and here's Thea alive and kicking. I think Thea will not tell people about the LP side affects. I don't know if she sees them as bad. I think they will bad it off as a "mental illness" story. I know Sara and Laurel aren't close but the show likes to pretend that isn't the case.

 

And Rip taking Sara from the past affects everything unless he were to bring her back to the moment of death. Him LPing a newly dead Sara would be idea for Sara but I think the show runners want Crazy Sara potential. And they want it to affect Laurel and Quinton as well. They consider Lance family drama important to the show.

According to Guggie, Thea wasn't actually dead, by which I mean her heart was still beating. Sara has been rotting, unembalmed, in a pine box for a year. Carrying bone soup to a magical pit to toss it in is just grotesque. RIP.

[Starfish35]

This is actually how I hoped they would bring her back. I thought it would be quite poetic if he took her from the moment right before she died and eventually had to take her back.

I would hate that, personally. I would not be interested in watching her having a death sentence hanging over her head like that.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[lemotomato]

From the interview with KC posted in the Media thread:

I feel like this response lends more credence to the theory that Nyssa dies. :(

.

KL got cast on a new show, didn't she? Even if Nyssa doesn't get killed off, she's not going to be available for much.

[tarotx]

I know that being dead for a year isn't the same as "dead" for a day. But wanting loved ones back is something everyone who has lost someone important wants. Finding out Thea was brought back would make anyone wonder if it's possible. 

[kismet]

I mean, there's no reason for anyone to bring Sara back at all, but it seems as if Laurel (from what the EPs have said about her making decisions about Sara that she's going to have to live with) is the one who does it. For whatever reason.

I think having Rip, DD, or MM bring her back for ulterior purposes would have made a better and more interesting story. I think you could take it back to that scene cut where it looked like someone was watching the funeral. She could have been a bargaining chip or a soldier. There was some type of potential. But I do not think that is the direction of the show is going, since the only people at the LP scene out of that group is MM & he does not seem that happy to be raising her from the dead.

 

However, I think the writers are going the melodramatic route and having LL resurrect her sister from the dead out of some weird combination of guilt & grief. Personally, I don't find that story as compelling. I mean I get it from an emotional standpoint. There are many people I loved that I wish I could bring back to health or life from a dip in the LP pool. I can find you hundreds of people in a similar situation without even blinking an eye. But I think it just feels a little melodramatic, but when it comes to the Lances that seems to be these writers' cup of tea.

 

I think there are reasons to bring SL back from the dead both in show & out of show, some are better than the other - but it's really is whatever your personal perspective is. I do agree though that if there was not a spin-off in the mix, SL would not be taking a dip in the LP. I personally think it was a mistake to kill her in the first place, but I don't think the writers think they made a mistake. I feel like they firmly stand behind their killing of SL for plot purposes.

[Morrigan2575]

This is actually how I hoped they would bring her back. I thought it would be quite poetic if he took her from the moment right before she died and eventually had to take her back.

I unequivocally loathe this idea.  The idea that Sara has a death sentence hanging over her head, one that is rather short since she still has to look like 26 year old Sara and not 95 year old Sara is depressing as all hell.  She deserves better, IMO.  That's why I'm glad she's getting LP'd she has a brand new life

[dtissagirl]

KL got cast on a new show, didn't she? Even if Nyssa doesn't get killed off, she's not going to be available for much.

 

Yeah, she shot the pilot a couple of weeks ago, and she's one of the leads. If it gets picked up, then Nyssa is probably toast.

[Starfish35]

I unequivocally loathe this idea. The idea that Sara has a death sentence hanging over her head, one that is rather short since she still has to look like 26 year old Sara and not 95 year old Sara is depressing as all hell. She deserves better, IMO. That's why I'm glad she's getting LP'd she has a brand new life

Agreed.

[AyChihuahua]

I unequivocally loathe this idea.  The idea that Sara has a death sentence hanging over her head, one that is rather short since she still has to look like 26 year old Sara and not 95 year old Sara is depressing as all hell.  She deserves better, IMO.  That's why I'm glad she's getting LP'd she has a brand new life

All they'd need to do is have Rip take her body from her grave. No one would know her corpse wasn't actually there, so no changing the future and no human bone soup. Easy peasy.

[Morrigan2575]

All they'd need to do is have Rip take her body from her grave. No one would know her corpse wasn't actually there, so no changing the future and no human bone soup. Easy peasy.

That wasn't the idea floated. The idea floated was that Rip would pull her from our time right before her death and then bring her back to die. Giving her a couple of extra years at most, which would be lived knowing she has an expiration date. That's so depressing.

[Coop33]

I unequivocally loathe this idea.  The idea that Sara has a death sentence hanging over her head, one that is rather short since she still has to look like 26 year old Sara and not 95 year old Sara is depressing as all hell.  She deserves better, IMO.  That's why I'm glad she's getting LP'd she has a brand new life

That's definitely a fair point. I didn't think about her being the same age. With it being TV and happy endings and all though, they could eventually figure out a way around her having to die. Either way, it's not what's actually happening. I'm glad she'll get another chance at life. 

[Primal Slayer]

Didn't the ratings take a dive after her death? It seeme like I remember a big drop for the half-hours for the episode right after her death. The ratings didn't really pick up again until the crossover IIRC. But this is probably a discussion for the ratings thread.

 

The ratings went from 3x01 - 2.8 to 3x02 - 2.3, which isn't bad given premieres and finales are usually higher.

They were trying to do an ATOM show, Sara wasn't part of the talks until later when it changed to a Team Show. 

 

As I said if it was just LoT, why not just bring her back on the big crossover episode? Why bring her back in the beginning of Arrow and focus the storyline on her. That makes it especially funny to me since again they wanted to do an ATOM show and he's barely mentioned for the upcoming episodes. 

They didn't think "we screwed up by killing off Sara so...lets make the ATOM show into a team up show" They are working both shows to lead up to LoT. She needs more then 1 episode to be brought back and make sense of it all. Thats why they are introducing all the LoT characters in Arrow/Flash instead and of course Sara would be getting more mentioned then Atom since she's been dead for a year and has a bigger tie to Arrow.

[Starfish35]

Replied in the ratings thread.

[lemotomato]

On a different note, the BTS pic SA posted means there's shirtless Oliver in 4x06, right? Coupled with his tweet about his salmon ladder skills last week, it's looking to be a promising episode. (I still can't believe we had a whole season with no Oliver-salmon ladder scenes.) /shallow

Edited September 14, 2015 by lemotomato

[Guest]

This is probably an unpopular opinion here, but I don't think they're admitting that killing Sara off was a mistake, not really. If they were, I think she'd be staying on Arrow. They're bringing her back and shipping her off to another show. 

 

If I had to guess, TPTB didn't realize that Sara had the fanbase that she does, and decided to cash in on that by bringing her back and sending her off to LoT - a show that they desperately want people to watch - hoping those fans would follow Sara over there. 

 

I think it was both. I do think they realized they made a mistake but they also decided to cash in on her fan base and send her to LoT, all the while providing some more story and character opportunities. As for her not staying on Arrow, I think it's simply because there's not enough room for two Canaries. It's crowded enough as it is.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I agree that it would be crowded with Sara. That's why I don't think she would've been brought back if it wasn't for LoT, so I can't really see bringing her back as a way to rectify a mistake, since they wouldn't have done it otherwise. Nothing that they've done on Arrow is changing to accommodate her return - Laurel is still BC, etc. I mean, I'm sure they love Caity - I'm not doubting that, but I think they're taking an opportunity to bring someone popular who fans know over to their new venture, and hope the fans will follow. 

[statsgirl]

I don't know, of course, what really went on but I suspect that Brandon Routh/Ray Palmer wasn't enough to see a second spin-off so they threw in Sara, who had a big fanbase, along with Victor Garber and a number of other comics character and that sold the show.

 

It makes sense to bring Sara back on Arrow though. Not only does it give Laurel a juicy storyline for 4A (I wonder if they're still having problems writing for her/writing her in) but an already-alive Sara would be a plus for the opening episode of LoT.

 

 I wonder if KL's pilot not being picked up yet means that Nyssa wouldn't be dead, just off-screen. Then they can kill her if the pilot gets picked up.

 

This is actually how I hoped they would bring her back. I thought it would be quite poetic if he took her from the moment right before she died and eventually had to take her back.

I think that's an interesting idea and all sorts of complex for Rip but it would mean that they couldn't do cross-overs with Arrow and Flash since it would screw up all sorts of things if she was alive in the present, Laurel's motivation to become BC for one. and the whole Ra's plot for another.

[Primal Slayer]

I think they just realized that the ATOM couldn't really sustain a series by himself and CW wanted something different so they decided to switch it to a team up show where they can constantly have a revolving cast and keep introducing/exploring new characters along with older ones.

 

I think with the right writing it would be great (really sad though) if Sara had been taken out of the time stream right before her death and was willing to live with the fact that she knows she has to go back to that moment in time and still die. It could've produced some highly emotional material between her and her family. Time travel is tricky so it wouldn't really mess up anything in S3 since this whole team traveling through time won't be messing with history or Flash traveling to the past didn't really create any butterfly effects.

On a different note, the BTS pic SA posted means there's shirtless Oliver in 4x06, right? Coupled with his tweet about his salmon ladder skills last week, it's looking to be a promising episode. (I still can't believe we had a whole season with no Oliver-salmon ladder scenes.) /shallow

Well he did say we are suppose to get plenty of shirtless Oliver this season, especially since they worked training into his overall schedule.

 

I wonder if we will get to see Laurel tackling the Salmon ladder the first half of the season or if they wait to do it during the 2nd half if they don't forget.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[AyChihuahua]

On a different note, the BTS pic SA posted means there's shirtless Oliver in 4x06, right? Coupled with his tweet about his salmon ladder skills last week, it's looking to be a promising episode. (I still can't believe we had a whole season with no Oliver-salmon ladder scenes.) /shallow

I don't think that's necessarily shallow at all. SA's physicality is one of the reasons he's so believable as a superhero. I'm really glad they're giving SA scheduled training time.

Edited September 15, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

Physicality is good but I don't like that they have to train specially for shirtless scenes.  Since both he and David Ramsey probably work out a lot, they shouldn't have to go the extra training to be seen shirtless.  The real Oliver wouldn't need to be super-ripped, just enough to do his vigilanting and parkouring.

 

I don't like it when women actors have to be super skinny to be thought attractive, and I don't like it when the men have to train specially for shirtless scenes.  Let's see them as real people, physically healthy and realistic.

Edited September 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[Primal Slayer]

That's the phase that Hollywood is in right now. If this would've been in the 90s, it would be a totally different ball game since big arms/major six packs weren't needed to be an action star or play a superhero.

[AyChihuahua]

Physicality is good but I don't like that they have to train specially for shirtless scenes.  Since both he and David Ramsey probably work out a lot, they shouldn't have to go the extra training to be seen shirtless.  The real Oliver wouldn't need to be super-ripped, just enough to do his vigilanting and parkouring.

 

I don't like it when women actors have to be super skinny to be thought attractive, and I don't like it when the men have to train specially for shirtless scenes.  Let's see them as real people, physically healthy and realistic.

When women are shirtless it's not usually to show them as believable superheroes. Sara was probably the exception to that, because she was in a sports bra on the salmon ladder, not lounging about showing off her boobs while she watched tv. If Oliver were all skinny or chubby I would never believe he could jump from building to building, among other things. One of the [many, many] reasons I thought Nable sucked is that he was chubby and looked weak, so the big swordfight was a letdown for me. So I guess I just totally disagree with you. He's not just playing a rando hot dude, he's playing a superhero, one with no special powers, whose body is his weapon. That's not someone who develops a beer gut.

[statsgirl]

I don't think SA or DR would be chubby if they just looked their normal during-the-season selves.  (SA did let the abs go during the hiatus after s2 but hey, it was the hiatus.)

 

It's the super muscles that they have to put on for the shirtless scenes that I think is too much. DR even said that they had fewer shirtless scenes in s2 because it took time to put those muscles on.  If they can do the salmon ladder or parkour anyway (and they can because they've done it with shirts on), it's the extra time to be really RIPPED that I don't like.  It's an unrealistic body image, just as Sarah Michelle Gellar was too thin to be able to do the stunts during BtVS but girls watching her thought they should look like that.

[apinknightmare]

All I know is I got to see SA's arms up close recently, and was lucky enough to have one of them wrapped around me, and it was an A+ would do again experience. Whatever he's been doing there, he needs to keep doing it IMHO!

[Guest]

Yeah, I agree that it would be crowded with Sara. That's why I don't think she would've been brought back if it wasn't for LoT, so I can't really see bringing her back as a way to rectify a mistake, since they wouldn't have done it otherwise. Nothing that they've done on Arrow is changing to accommodate her return - Laurel is still BC, etc. I mean, I'm sure they love Caity - I'm not doubting that, but I think they're taking an opportunity to bring someone popular who fans know over to their new venture, and hope the fans will follow. 

 

Ah. Well I think contracts and BTS things meant that they could never really change things on Arrow to accommodate Sara's return. And it would be pretty ridiculous to kill off a character to make Laurel BC and then take all of that back. I don't ever see that happening, even if Sara was more popular. But seeing as there was always talk of a spin-off, I think it made things easier. They could basically have their cake and eat it. 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't really care how ripped Digg is. He's a tough guy, but he's not a finely-honed weapon. I specifically appreciate that SA looks like he could be a non-superpowered superhero, and his athletic abilities and physical appearance make it believable.

Re SMG, Buffy had superpowers. It's completely different when the character has superpowers. They can be skinny or fat or short or tall or whatever, and it doesn't affect believability. If Buffy hadn't had superpowers it would have been entirely unbelievable. I think a better example would probably be Nikita, because that actress, while a little taller than SMG, probably weighs 100 lbs. I could kind of buy it because she's athletic and has real martial arts training, but otherwise she was far too thin for her character, but of course she wasn't actually playing a superhero.

Speaking of which, that is a show that used its actress's looks unnecessarily. She's gorgeous, but I think I saw her in her underwear more often than I've seen myself in my underwear.

Edited September 15, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[AyChihuahua]

Final note, abs are not just for looks. They're incredibly important for stability, endurance, and doing amazing things with one's body, for example flipping yourself upside down and climbing a chain hand-over-hand. SA's abs are necessary because OLIVER's abs are necessary.

[looptab]

Haven't been around here for a while, I'm not up to date with everything and I don't know if I'll be able to catch up on what I missed, but hearing that Katrina Law/Nyssa could be off the show is sad, sad news. :/

[statsgirl]

I'm fine with whatever abs are necessary for stability, endurance, flipping and fighting.  It's the part beyond that, the part that's for show rather than purpose (i.e. when they have to work out extra because the scene is going to be shirtless as opposed to doing the same scene with a shirt on), that I wish they wouldn't go to extremes with because normal humans are going to feel bad about not measuring up.

[AyChihuahua]

But Oliver's not a normal human. Not at all. He's literally a superhero. Do people really compare their bodies to superheroes' bodies and find themselves wanting? I don't understand that POV at all.

[wonderwall]

I'm fine with whatever abs are necessary for stability, endurance, flipping and fighting.  It's the part beyond that, the part that's for show rather than purpose (i.e. when they have to work out extra because the scene is going to be shirtless as opposed to doing the same scene with a shirt on), that I wish they wouldn't go to extremes with because normal humans are going to feel bad about not measuring up.

 

I disagree. That's would be like telling Felicity to try not to act smart or look smart in school or in life because other people would feel bad about measuring up...I think it's just kind of ridiculous for a superhero to have a 'normal' body (whatever that means). The point is superheroes are NOT normal. They go above and beyond both physically and mentally. I see nothing wrong with it. 

[Primal Slayer]

Look at all the actors who played Batman and Superman in the past, they were in shape but they weren't as extreme as heroes are now. Even Routh wasn't as ripped as Cavill is when he played Superman and it didn't take anything away from them. But I am fine with how they all look since I don't mind it. 

[statsgirl]

.I think it's just kind of ridiculous for a superhero to have a 'normal' body (whatever that means).

I never said they should to have a 'normal body'.  I'm just against an abnormal one

 

One of the things I really liked about Caity Lotz playing Sara is that while she was slim, she was also muscular.  It made sense that she could fight the way she did unlike a number of other women who are supposed to be fighters but don't have the body strength to actually be able to do it if they had to.  (Buffy can be the exception because the character had special powers but SMG's stuntwoman said in an interview that if she were as thin as SMG, she wouldn't be able to do her job.)  Sara was realistic.

 

I remember an interview with Will Snow about 14 years ago talking about how unfair it was that the women on The Lost World have to maintain perfect bodies all the time (especially Jennifer O'Dell who as the jungle girl wore a leather 2 piece) while when the men have to do a shirtless scene, all they have to do it lay off the donuts for a couple of weeks. He was exaggerating (I think) but those days are far gone because now men are under pressure to live up to an unrealistic body image the way women are..

 

I was watching the athletes during the Pan Am Games.  Those guys are super fit and strong and yet they don't have the kind of muscles that Diggle and Oliver have.  When DR and SA can do the salmon laddder just as well with shirts on as not but have to do extra body building for a shirtless scene (according to DR) to match the current male ideal, I think it becomes more about fashion than about realism or health.

 

Even Brandon Routh, whose character depends on his suit to do his fighting and Grant Gustin ("lightning gave me abs") are pressured to conform to the fashion.

 

In the same way that it bothers me when an actress is so thin that she looks unhealthy, it bothers me when male actors have to put on extra muscle for show rather than purpose.  Body dysmorphia is a real condition but even many ordinary people feel bad about their bodies because they don't match up to an unrealistic ideal

 

But I'll drop it now since it appears my point is being misunderstood.

[AyChihuahua]

I understand your point; I just wholeheartedly disagree with it as it relates to SA/Oliver (and only SA/Oliver). Oliver should have an abnormal body, because he is abnormal and he does abnormal things with his body. He fights multiple bad guys at a time, climbs mountainsides/buildings with little to no equipment, holds Felicity with one arm while swinging/sliding with the other, fights guys bigger than he is, fights superpowered guys, and climbs up chains upside down. Among other things. That requires an unbelievably strong body.

Also, the shirtless scenes help illustrate what's under his clothes in the non-shirtless scenes. It all helps the viewer suspend disbelief.

[EmeraldArcher]

I never said they should to have a 'normal body'.  I'm just against an abnormal one.

[. . .]

In the same way that it bothers me when an actress is so thin that she looks unhealthy, it bothers me when male actors have to put on extra muscle for show rather than purpose.  Body dysmorphia is a real condition but even many ordinary people feel bad about their bodies because they don't match up to an unrealistic ideal

 

But I'll drop it now since it appears my point is being misunderstood.

@statsgirl, thank you for your thoughtful explanation. I wish I'd had time to add my thoughts earlier when the conversation was starting because I understood and agreed with your points. I understand the others' points about Oliver being a superhero without superpowers, so of course he'd have an extraordinary body, but I think your concerns situate OQ in a much larger social context.

Young people are especially susceptible to internalizing messages about how their bodies should look, so I think a discussion is warranted about how the increased pressure on actors (male and female) to conform to a cosmetic standard that emphasizes the aesthetic over even function is dangerous.

Your point that SA/OQ can perform amazing physical feats with his usual level of fitness and core strength but requires additional training so that he looks even more impressive while doing them is well made. It's as if there is a rejection of him simply being able to perform the stunts thanks to his physicality because of the demand that he enhances his already impressive abs by defining them even more. To what end, if his abs give him the ability to do the stunt? It's purely cosmetic. A man with ripped abs lounging by a pool does not look like a superhero. A man parkouring through an urban environment to catch bad guys does--whether he's wearing a shirt or not or is insanely ripped or not. His heroism is defined by his actions--which are made possible by his level of fitness--not by how good he looks shirtless.

The evolving cosmetic standard for men is evident elsewhere, too. I'm not sure if he naturally has less body hair than other men, but SA doesn't have underarm hair in his shirtless scenes, IIRC. Does body hair make one look less like a hero? It seems like in the last few years, it's become gross for men to have hair on their chest, backs, arms, etc.

Women have long been pressured to alter their bodies and to stay as thin as possible while sporting the largest breasts they can manage without toppling over, and now men are facing the same type of cosmetic pressures--even superheroes. Whether people on this site feel that pressure or ignore it, I think we can all agree that many people buy into the pressure to meet superficial and often impossible standards of attractiveness.

(I freely admit I enjoy seeing him shirtless, but I enjoy seeing many different body types and/or other great non-physical qualities.)

[BkWurm1]

Haven't been around here for a while, I'm not up to date with everything and I don't know if I'll be able to catch up on what I missed, but hearing that Katrina Law/Nyssa could be off the show is sad, sad news. :/

I think it's just fearful speculation at this point.  It might happen but I'm going to cross my fingers and hope that even if her pilot does get picked up that they don't kill off her character.  It just seems short sighted.  I mean, even if the pilot does get picked up, it doesn't meant the show will last or at least last longer than Arrow or LoA.  So here's hoping TPTB do the smart thing this time and not burn their bridges. 

The evolving cosmetic standard for men is evident elsewhere, too. I'm not sure if he naturally has less body hair than other men, but SA doesn't have underarm hair in his shirtless scenes, IIRC. Does body hair make one look less like a hero? It seems like in the last few years, it's become gross for men to have hair on their chest, backs, arms, etc

 

This is getting shallow but I miss seeing hairy chests.  Smooth chests are fine for some and a little sculpting is not a bad thing but it's a crying shame to train the masses to think chest hair is icky. 

[kismet]

I don't really care how ripped Digg is. He's a tough guy, but he's not a finely-honed weapon. I specifically appreciate that SA looks like he could be a non-superpowered superhero, and his athletic abilities and physical appearance make it believable.

Re SMG, Buffy had superpowers. It's completely different when the character has superpowers. They can be skinny or fat or short or tall or whatever, and it doesn't affect believability. If Buffy hadn't had superpowers it would have been entirely unbelievable. I think a better example would probably be Nikita, because that actress, while a little taller than SMG, probably weighs 100 lbs. I could kind of buy it because she's athletic and has real martial arts training, but otherwise she was far too thin for her character, but of course she wasn't actually playing a superhero.

Speaking of which, that is a show that used its actress's looks unnecessarily. She's gorgeous, but I think I saw her in her underwear more often than I've seen myself in my underwear.

I used to watch Nikita as well. Maggie Q was amazing, completely underrated actress. She could do action and drama. She was tiny but it was all lean muscle. Plus the martial arts training she has done for years, trained her to use her body in ways that worked for her advantage. But yeah Nikita's wardrobe was either lingerie lounger wear or mission gear. There was very to little casual/everyday wardrobe. It did feel a little odd at times. In later seasons, at least they dressed her because she was running the place.

 

Half of the reason SL is more believable than LL is that she knows how to control/use her body to its advantage. LL hasn't found that comfort in her body from a fighting perspective. I also feel like the stunt doubles does stuff that seems awkward for LL's body type. Either way between KC's mention of increase training & WM's mention of no learning curve - I hope the stunt double has found a way to better transition KC in & out of stunts while mimicking some of KC's natural movements.

 

Sidebar - I'm glad they are giving SA time to work-out. His physicality does help his believability as weapon & superhero. Unlike the other actors, he has the most time commitments on set. So he either has to work out in his off time or let his body go a little (both options seem unfair to him & us). I'm glad they found a way to make it work. The other actors can simply work out when they have breaks in their filming commitments.

[Primal Slayer]

I hope they give Laurel a more defined fighting technique since that will help and they can switch it up and add to it each season/mid season since Laurel should constantly be wanting to improve herself. Before S3 was done, I was hoping they would've had her leave Starling for the summer hiatus and have her do some hardcore training with Nyssa which would lead to Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva.

 

Hopefully whenever she hits the Salmon ladder, it will be a big episode for her that will include her and Oliver finally training together for the first time and her surprising him with her progress.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Primal Slayer