Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Guest]

Maybe they're just filming out of order.

[kismet]

I am starting to feel Nyssa is going to die :S

I think they really love KL, so that might save her. But I wonder if they will need to sacrifice someone to bring SL back. And if that is the case, the only 3 people I could see making that sacrifice is QL, LL & Nyssa. QL I think is too valuable as the show's only permanent contact to the cops & PB seems content with his contract/character spending only a small amount of time on the show. LL is both too selfish & narcissistic on the show to be willing to give up her life. I doubt KC would give up her sweet gig on Arrow. So that leaves Nyssa for whom making the ultimate sacrifice for her beloved is both in character & something you give to a recurring guest star because you don't have to worry as much about contractual obligations.

 

But on the plus side, maybe the team of LoT can go back in time and save her from needing to make that sacrifice later in their seasons. It might get a little screwy, but that's bound to happen with time travel. And they have far warned that things could get very messy for the team as they try to fix stuff for personal reasons. I can imagine both SL & RP wanting to go back in time to save their beloveds once Rip Hunter tempts them with time travel. It's a juicy story to write/tell.

Edited August 17, 2015 by kismet

[AyChihuahua]

Are they switching around filming, but not airing?

 

As an aside, is Arrow much less organized than other tv shows, or is this kind of thing typical?  I mean they have had to totally change storylines around because they haven't locked in actors, they didn't know when S2 started whether Sara and Isabel would be good or bad, it seems like they didn't know that Slade would be in love with Shado, etc.  I totally understand and laud a willingness to deviate from a plan that's not working (e.g., booting LL as love interest), but these people seem not really to have much of a plan in the first place.  I find it bizarre, but I'm not in the television business, so maybe it's typical?

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I'm guessing they're shooting out of order, but it seems like it would be easier to just say that on Twitter than doctor up the script page and still manage to be confusing, haha. It technically is still 4x05, even if they are filming it 4th. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

I read that there was scheduling  & timing issues with Rutina Wesley's availability in one of the casting articles. That both sides worked stuff around to make it work. So maybe they had to reorder some of the episodes to accommodate for her story/availability. Maybe something similar happened with Matt Ryan. When you're able to lock down great talent, you want to be able to use them & not waste their time. It could be as simple as locations not being available either. I'm fine if they had to move some episodes/stories around to make a better show.

 

Honestly, I doubt it matters if they tell SL's story in 404 or 405. It probably doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the season, since its probably more of an adjacent to the major story arc, than part of the major arc.

[dtissagirl]

IIRC, production numbers are fixed, and need to obey the order of filming, so the fourth filmed episode will always be labeled "4x04", even if it airs as 5th, or 17th, or never ever airs.

[Morrigan2575]

Supernatural has filmed out of order to accommodate Mark Sheppard's filming schedule. It's not unusual for that to happen, sometimes you have to but, i would wager its easier to do at the start of the season when you have more time for post production.

I guess this explains why CL and Matt Ryan flew in for filming this week.

[apinknightmare]

IIRC, production numbers are fixed, and need to obey the order of filming, so the fourth filmed episode will always be labeled "4x04", even if it airs as 5th, or 17th, or never ever airs.

 

Yeah, Brian Ford Sullivan posted that exact reasoning on his Twitter just now.

[GreatAtBoats]

Sara wanted to kill Roy when he was on Mirakuru, the others wanted to keep him alive.

Sara's conflict over Roy was with Oliver, and Sin and Thea if you want to stretch things. But there was no "standoff" between her and Diggle or Felicity about it.

[dtissagirl]

I have a feeling -- or maybe it's more of a hope -- that the formation of the team part of the story is over and done. The team is the team, and the growing pains of working together happened last season. They'll still have issues, obviously -- Diggle and Oliver have to make up, Oliver and Laurel will most likely butt heads over Sara's resurrection [if Laurel is involved in it] -- but I think [hope] it'll be character issues, and not "do I belong in this team" issues.

 

And they need to give Laurel a storyline outside of the Arrow cave, if we're to believe all of the talk from SDCC, about reconnecting the characters with the city. She's the ADA, so she already works for the city. We know there are political shenanigans going on, and that Lance is somehow involved with DD. They need to insert Laurel into that part of the story, for her to have anything even remotely meaningful in a story about working for the law vs. being a vigilante.

Edited August 17, 2015 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

Sara's conflict over Roy was with Oliver, and Sin and Thea if you want to stretch things. But there was no "standoff" between her and Diggle or Felicity about it.

 

I think the OP might have been talking about the scene with Roy, Sara, Felicity and Diggle in "Deathstroke" when Roy lost it over Slade kidnapping Thea. I don't recall Diggle really "sticking up" for Roy in that scene, apart from telling him to calm down, so who knows. 

[BkWurm1]

As an aside, is Arrow much less organized than other tv shows, or is this kind of thing typical?  I mean they have had to totally change storylines around because they haven't locked in actors, they didn't know when S2 started whether Sara and Isabel would be good or bad, it seems like they didn't know that Slade would be in love with Shado, etc.  I totally understand and laud a willingness to deviate from a plan that's not working (e.g., booting LL as love interest), but these people seem not really to have much of a plan in the first place.  I find it bizarre, but I'm not in the television business, so maybe it's typical?

I think it will vary from show to show but is probably more common than we know.  I remember the Smallville runners bragging about the cliffhangers they would write for the end of the season with absolutely no idea how they were going to "fix" it not to mention the number of times a character was clearly written not evil only to retcon them by the end of the season as evil. 

 

At least Arrow seems to try to tie things up at the end of each season rather than take it as their cue to just start randomly throwing crap to see what sticks. 

IIRC, production numbers are fixed, and need to obey the order of filming, so the fourth filmed episode will always be labeled "4x04", even if it airs as 5th, or 17th, or never ever airs.

They can film it in any order they want as long as it makes sense when they air it.  Kind of looking forward to the spoilers that might come out.  Also don't really want to be spoiled.  Two months to go. 

 

Two very long months.

[tv echo]

I really don't understand WM's response that "There's no more learning curve" for Laurel.  Remember when Oliver was trying to teach Barry and, iirc, saying that he's always training, always learning?  That's what he had to do to stay alive.  I'm not a martial artist, but I believe those who are still train and learn and try to get better, no matter how good they are.  Now it sounds like the EPs have thrown Oliver's whole message away. WM should've given a better response, one that's more consistent with the idea of continual improvement.  I agree that the quick hero journeys of Laurel, Roy and Thea have undermined Oliver's long hero journey.

 

As for Laurel's struggling with issues as an ADA, I wonder if TPTB have spies monitoring fan boards because some of us were complaining last season about her hypocrisy in prosecuting lawbreakers by day and being a lawbreaker herself at night (and even before that, when she went after the purportedly abusive boyfriend with a bat).

 

I think that Laurel will have plenty of screentime in 4A.  In addition to being part of Team Arrow 2.0 as the "fully arrived" BC and grappling with her secret identity and ADA issues, she'll have the whole Sara resurrection story and dealing with her father (Lance family drama), she'll apparently play a major role in launching LoT, she'll have some issues with Oliver (per SA), and she supposedly has "one big development" that MG couldn't talk about (as of SDCC time).  It's 4B where they'll have to come up with new story ideas for Laurel.

Edited August 18, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

Seems episode 6th is the episode Ray returns so I hope CR has scenes with Oliver.

[tv echo]

Just read the spoiler that Donna Smoak is showing up in 4x06. That's the same episode where, according to MG, they're going to explain the whole time line with respect to the PT building explosion and Oliver/Felicity's journey away from Starling City. So I wonder if Oliver & Felicity make a pit stop in Las Vegas.

[apinknightmare]

If Laurel not having a learning curve any more means I don't have to watch her train, or fumble around like a moron one minute and beat an assassin the next, then that's good news to me. Personally, I don't care when or how or if she improves as long as I don't have to watch it. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tarotx]

Oh we will watch Laurel train still. We watched Sara's fully formed Canary train so KC will make sure her Black Canary gets the same kind of scenes. But yeah nobody wants to watch the inconsistent fighting skills.

I'm just hoping that KC really did do enough training to make Laurel look like a fighter and I don't just mean lifting weights and losing body fat to gain muscles definition (though that will help with the visual). KC had weak transitions into the stunt double and it looked awkward. I never really could accept that was Laurel because of that. And Laurel's walking and the way she holds herself. She's very up instead of grounded. She just didn't suit Laurel's supposed fighting style. That's the main thing she needed to work on imo.

[Morrigan2575]

Just read the spoiler that Donna Smoak is showing up in 4x06. That's the same episode where, according to MG, they're going to explain the whole time line with respect to the PT building explosion and Oliver/Felicity's journey away from Starling City. So I wonder if Oliver & Felicity make a pit stop in Las Vegas.

Huh.  Didn't even think about that.  Just figured she would return to Star(ling) City.  I'm just hoping this means 406 is a Felicity centric episode, if i have to suffer through a Laurel centric episode in 405 just to see Constantine and Sara, I'm going to need a pallet cleanser following or else i won't be tuning back in for awhile (especially if 408 turns out to be Lance(s) heavy and Diggle/Felicity light.

 

I never really could accept that was Laurel because of that. And Laurel's walking and the way she holds herself. She's very up instead of grounded.

 

Aww, come on KC's bad runway walk was totally badass!  You didn't buy that she was "Tough" when she robotic(ly) walked down the tunnel?  LOL

Edited August 18, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

Oh we will watch Laurel train still. We watched Sara's fully formed Canary train so KC will make sure her Black Canary gets the same kind of scenes. But yeah nobody wants to watch the inconsistent fighting skills.

 

I don't mean training in general, I mean Ted Grant-esque, Laurel-only training plots. Don't care, don't want to see it. Sparring or whatever? Meh. Sure.

[dtissagirl]

I'm 100% sure the writers believe wholeheartedly that they already gave Laurel the full storyline of training, and struggling with fighting skills, and then getting better at it gradually so that the other heroes would approve of her vigilante-ing. It was called season three.

[tarotx]

I personally don't want to see her sparing with Oliver, Diggle or Sara. It's one of the things I'm least looking forward too with her. I can handle Nyssa and Thea. Maybe. But not Oliver, or Diggle or Sara. Unless KC can for the first time ever stay in character and not get all gleeful about a victory she shouldn't really have with a non distracted Oliver, Diggle or Sara.

[AyChihuahua]

Can they do a sparring scene with Laurel? Those are generally the actors, not the doubles, especially bc they're generally half-clothed. It's much more difficult to hide doubles without the costumes.

[tarotx]

Sara spared so Laurel will.

[kismet]

I feel like they definitely have spies on the boards. Hello! Thanks for Arrow & Thanks for reading :)  Random thoughts -

 

Laurel - Who cares about her learning curve or lack thereof? The less her training factors in to the story, the less I likely have to care about her story. Organically weaving in her martial arts training & preparedness for being a vigilante sailed away over 2.5 seasons ago. Any more emphasis on her "learning" would just be lipservice at this point & appease nobody. I just hope they got her a better stunt double for her or at least had her train more with her stunt double to make the transition from acting to stunting more seemless. Frankly, I prefer they just focus on making her relevant to story/characters or teaching her how to write a resume & transfer her skills to another needy law job far away from SC. S4 is the make or break season for LL.

 

Insta-Heroes undermining OQ's journey - Honestly, OQ's journey is the #1 reason I tune into the show and his journey is about more than learning to throw a punch or shoot an arrow. He learned pretty quickly in the FB in s1/2, so its not that big of a deal to me that everybody else learned the basics pretty quick. He's also more proficient in a lot of different types of fighting & skills. He is more versatile & in what he is capable of doing. Whereas the other insta-heroes are really only good at 1 style/type of combat. TQ is a little bit of an exception, but she was trained by MM & on drugs at the time so that get her a little bit more of an edge. Plus I would emphasize quality over efficiency in telling his story. If any complaint I can give to his journey in s3, is that they did make him far to dumb for plot purposes & that needs to change quickly. If the insta-heroes don't need a physical learning curve, than OQ doesn't need an intelligence learning curve for plot reasons. But hopefully this season they will get back to characters & not just plot which should balance stuff out.

 

Star City - At least in the pic with PB & DR and the Star City police badge, the 2 of them look to be joshing around having fun. And if this means that we get more scenes with DR & PB together than that's something to look forward to. Its dumb to change a city's name out of the blue. But at this point, if it helps make the fans feel better, than so be it.

 

Mama Smoak - Here's hoping her time is not wasted just on RP's plot line. I loved having her return last season, but then they squandered away most of her scenes in that stupid hospital. If she's contracted for an episode I want her acting with FS, OQ, JD & QL (if their onscreen chem is as promising as their off-screen chemistry). Everybody else can be hiding in the bunker taking a nap for the rest of the episode.

[tv echo]

To clarify my previous comments, I wasn't saying that I wanted to see more training scenes with Laurel.  I was saying that WM's comment about her learning curve being over was inconsistent with the message (communicated by Oliver) that heroes have to train and improve continuously in order to stay alive.  We don't see Oliver train all the time, but we know he does it.  We don't see Diggle working out all the time, but it's clear he does as well. WM could've conveyed the idea that Laurel is now a competent BC without making it sound like she's stopped learning anything.

 

Here's another thought - the fifth episode (4x04, 4x05 or whatever) is supposed to have significant Constantine/Laurel interaction.  If it turns out that MR and KC have major chemistry (and if the ratings are high), I can see them bringing him back for future episodes and have Laurel get into magic.

Edited August 18, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

Can they do a sparring scene with Laurel? Those are generally the actors, not the doubles, especially bc they're generally half-clothed. It's much more difficult to hide doubles without the costumes.

They shouldn't waste the money to bring stunt doubles on for those scenes. Honestly, that's probably why they moved the training area into a separate off camera room. Less sparring in general for main cast. Which is such a waste of SA & DR. They'll probably just show KC wiping her face with a towel. It'll be the equivalent of when FS/EBR got caught "training" in her 2 scenes. Or when RH/CH would just grab something & then walk off camera. KC sparring with the other cast just doesn't seem believable or safe unless they upped her actual training in real life. As far as I know, SA/CL/DR all can actually enter a sparring match in real life & survive. They only thing I've seen of KC BTS is her playing with some marital art weapons. Not sure she could come out of a sparring match IRL uninjured.

[tarotx]

I don't mind Laurel being fully able to take on bad guys. It's just what they do to Oliver, Diggle and Sara to make Laurel prove she's a fully functional BC that I worry about.

Thea already had archery training via thophies in the pilot. And she did have drug induced mental training and The LP. I don't want to see her take on Oliver or Diggle either though WH will handle that gloat of a victory better than KC.

I guess what I don't want is the characters I like to be physically dumbed down. I'm sick of dumb for Laurel.

Lol I probably shouldn' have done a season 3 rewatch over the week end :p

[AyChihuahua]

Lol I probably shouldn' have done a season 3 rewatch over the week end :p

Why would you do that to yourself?!?

[tv echo]

So really definitely Star City then *sigh*

https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulBlackthorne/status/633334888247238656/photo/1

 

Here's the pic for anyone having trouble with the link:

Edited August 18, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

:p

A friend just watched s1 and 2 and she wanted me to watch 3 with her.

Why would you do that to yourself?!?

[Sakura12]

CL is still training IRL, she posted something about getting her yellow belt in the Filipino Martial Arts (weapons training) she started taking after Arrow killed her character off.  

 

I think SA said CL could kick his ass and CL said DR could kick her ass in a fight. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

DR could probably kick everybody's asses IRL. He's huge and he kickboxes. One hit and anybody would be done.

[Chaser]

The use of KCs stunt double was more and more evident as the season progressed. This is after a year plus of KC heavy training? I don't think it's her strength. I don't think we are going to get Oliver Sara Diggle style sparring. I think it's going to be inferred.

It's funny. I didn't read lots of Laurel into that spoiler. The whole life and mask balance is what they are doing with everyone it seems. It didn't read unique storyline like Olivee getting political, Felicity and Her Company, Diggle and his brother. The big development was from the TV Guide, in retrospect they could have just been talking about Sara/LoT. As for being a big part of launching LOT, it could be big but given their history of selling Laurel it could also be a single conversation between Laurel and Sara with Laurel giving her stamp of approval on Sara's new life. I really don't know how to read anything from the EPs regarding Laurel. It never hits the mark.

Are we for sure that ep6 is when Ray returns? I was so looking forward to Donna coming back last season and was disappointed with how they used her with Ray and Oliver. Really hoping we get some good hints about Felictys Dad. If they are planning on bringing him in later in the season, that would be a good time to lay some foundation.

[quarks]

I don't think 208 and 408 are going to be Lance family heavy, or any character heavy except for Oliver, Barry, and - very possibly - Rip Hunter, Jay Jackson and Hawkgirl, since in theory these two episodes are introducing Legends, and those are the only three Legends characters who haven't appeared in multiple episodes yet. 

 

Basically, in 84 minutes, the two shows have to give screentime to:

 

Barry (presumably the majority, as the main character on the more popular show)

Oliver

Ray Palmer

Sara Lance

Captain Cold

Heatwave

Hawkgirl

Jay Jackson

Rip Hunter

Victor Garber

Cisco

Caitlin

Iris

Joe 

Felicity

Diggle

Laurel

 

Possibly:

 

Quentin

Malcolm

Whoever Reverse Flash is pretending to be this year

Mr. Terrific

The police chief on Flash

Jay Garrick

Wally West

Lyla

Nyssa

Damien Darkh

 

That's 17 characters who almost certainly will be appearing (it's possible Thea or one of the Legends characters - my money would be on Heatwave - won't appear), plus ten more characters who could appear, in just 84 minutes. Even eliminating the "possibles," that's still about seven more speaking parts than many 90 minute films have, including bit parts.  The episodes just won't have time to feature any character.

 

With that said, these two episodes are also trying to sell a very expensive upcoming show, so if anyone outside of Barry, Oliver and Legends characters is going to be featured (and that's questionable) it will probably be fan favorites Joe, Cisco, whoever Reverse Flash is this season, Felicity or Diggle. Laurel, no. Yes, her crossover episode to Flash did fine in the ratings (better than Felicity and Ray's crossover did) and her arc did fine in the ratings (probably because of the bump from Flash, but we could argue that) but numerous other signs suggest that she's still a controversial character.  For this, Arrow/Flash/Legends need a sure thing. Hi, Cisco!

[kismet]

I wonder if its going to be Dig working with QL that somehow makes way for the return of the Team Arrow.  Perhaps he's the link that helps repair Team Arrow & QL/SCPD. Somehow, QL has to learn to trust Team Arrow again & I don't see that happening with either OQ or LL. I anticipate PB/DR working together will be fun & enjoyable duo. Plus they have a lot of the same moral code, I see them being more similar in their priorities.

 

I wonder if less of Digs time will be spent with OQ for most of s4a. Which will be sad, but I think believable considering how they ended things. I can see Dig bringing OQ/GA back into the fold for practical & logistical purposes. But the emotional relationship & friendship will not be there. It will be all business (like when TA worked with Nyssa/LL/MM last yr). Trust is going to be a major issue. Sadly FS is no longer a neutral force that can help mend the situation. SO, I wonder if QL will help Dig come around in late s4a/early s4b and be the one that helps repair OQ/Dig bromance & trust. Which would be a cool thing for QL to do considering how he completely F** over Team Arrow last season. QL owes OQ/TA (& frankly the audience) something.

[AyChihuahua]

They took Quentin too far down the crazy train for me last year. Crowing about Roy's death to Oliver and hitting Oliver when he was handcuffed and not a threat, and unbelievably hypocritically ignoring his daughters' (PLURAL) vigilante activities AND his own past criminal support of them made me sick. I personally don't see any reason for them ever to trust him or even speak to him ever again. PB seems like a lovely chap, but Quentin can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned.

[Guest]

I'm sort of getting that same feeling of dread that the show will be nothing but Lance family stuff. Ugh. No thanks. 

 

I'm so happy that CR is coming back, even if it's just for one episode. I hope whatever brings her back is about Felicity and not about anyone else. So sick of Felicity being used for everyone else's storylines.

[kismet]

IMO, QL is the only one of the Lances that really still has a purpose & need to be in Star City. He's already sacrificed everything to save the city & proven that it is a top priority to him. I'd rather see him have a redemption storyline than LL try to work on her life/work/vigilante balance.

 

I feel like she needs a fresh start in a new place for her own mental health & personal growth. She should take inspiration from the City's name change & her sister's resurrection, and find rebirth somewhere else. I liked her in s1 when she was actually doing something to help. But SC is a toxic environment for her. I don't think her vigilantism is the most productive or efficient way to save her city. Maybe this season will end with her quitting one of the other, when she is not able to maintain the balance.

 

LL seems to draw heavily/steal from other people's life. She already stole her mother's narcissism, her father's addiction & her sister's life. Perhaps she'll steal OQ's broody obsessions & single-minded focus that will run her into the ground. I honestly think her big plot line will be her one-way ticket to self-destruction not from ineptitude but from failure to balance. She's headed down a dark path.

[AyChihuahua]

I think Laurel's brush with the dark path was the pointlessness of her S2 drug and alcohol/"once you let the darkness in blah blah blah..." crap. I'm guessing she might quit the DA's office, which would actually make sense. (I have zero interest in addiction storylines, which is a personal preference that guaranteed I had no interest in S2 LL.)

[tv echo]

I think I said before that I thought Laurel might quit the DA's Office and rejoin CNRI (or similar organization), which would dovetail with Oliver's entering politics, because then they could both fight for social causes and the underprivileged.

[kismet]

When I meant dark, I meant more broody. I think we're done wirh her alcoholism for plot. Perhaps even villainesque. I just see her cracking. I see her taking a darth vader path. She's gonna be channeling OQ s1.

[Sakura12]

Maybe they should've taken a note from Gotham when it came to Laurel. Barbara was Gotham's Laurel character and they turned her batshit crazy and she became a ton more interesting. 

[calliope1975]

Maybe they should've taken a note from Gotham when it came to Laurel. Barbara was Gotham's Laurel character and they turned her batshit crazy and she became a ton more interesting. 

 

After that "darkness" line, I was really hoping we would get villain Laurel (or at least Manhunter Laurel.) I think it would have been really interesting and that KC could have done a decent job with that type of story line. Alas...

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think they'll take LL dark, because they're stuck on her comic book destiny, and turning the Black Canary into Darth would be very anti-comics. I also meant generally that having her be on drugs and her moment with Helena was the EP's version of her going dark. Not that it made sense or was actually particularly dark, but that was their go at the "LL goes dark" idea. I'd actually be okay with her going bad or dark or whatever, bc I thought KC was fine on Supernatural as Ruby, who was a cold biznitch demon. I think that is much more in KC's acting wheelhouse (not that she actually is a cold biznitch IRL, but that for whatever reason she plays that part well). I just doubt they'll go there, or especially that they'll go there again. Personally I think she just won't have a whole lot to do in 4B, other than quitting being an ADA. Maybe a love interest? I really think she needs a love interest, preferably one with whom KC has chem-tested.

[dtissagirl]

Interestingly enough, last season they did this in three separate primetime shows -- Gotham, Sleepy Hollow, and Grimm. They all turned their unpopular lady characters ~evil~ because they weren't working as love interests.

[Morrigan2575]

and 2/3 got killed off.  Dammnit!

[GreatAtBoats]

Ugh, I love Charlotte Ross but I have no interest in the Smoak family drama.

[Velocity23]

What Smoak family drama? The only family that has drama programmed in is the Lance family.

[lemotomato]

Nevermind. It's not worth arguing about.

Edited August 18, 2015 by lemotomato

[Belinea]

Maybe a love interest? I really think she needs a love interest, preferably one with whom KC has chem-tested.

Maybe I am remembering this wrong but didn't they do one with her and the guy who played Ted Grant? Even if they didn't, isn't it somewhat telling that after not testing KC/SA that they now do a chemistry test for almost all the characters. At least there was a learning process.