Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Guest]

Actually, if speculation is correct and Oliver does hang up the hood for a while, what will the 3.5 comics be about exactly? Because, no offence to LL fans, if it's just focusing on Laurel being BC I'd rather give my money elsewhere. 

 

I also can't see Oliver hanging up the hood and being okay with Thea joining their little vigilante team while he's not there to supervise or protect her. We all know what he's like.

 

Hmmm. 

[tarotx]

I think Diggle, Laurel as BC, and Thea as Speedy will be a crime fighting team in the 3.5 comics and the start of season 4.

I'm not sure what will happen with Oliver.

[nksarmi]

I really think every spoiler we are getting will lead to Oliver hanging up the hood and riding off into the sunset with CEO Felicity Smoak and not getting back into the business until the big bad of season four drags him back in and he gets a new suit and the Green Arrow name.  I'm not sure how they will overcome the Quentin issue, but I think SC is just going to get used to a different set of vigilantes on the streets for awhile and maybe they won't even blink an eye when "someone else" puts on the green hood.

 

Of course this has had us speculating about the comics for awhile.  I think the writers like to play with characters in the comics they can't necessarily use on the show because of real life issues so I would not be surprised at all if we saw Roy, Helena, and even Vixen (they said she was going to be part of the universe in some recent quote) in the 3.5 comics - maybe even Katana or Nyssa if they both survive the finale.  Maybe Oliver and Felicity do a bit of travelling and Oliver keeps hooking up with other vigilantes while Felicity is at business meetings because he just can't help it?

 

Then I think we will also see some stuff in SC with Diggle, BC, and Thea that are separate stories from Oliver.

[ostentatious]

Negl, I would read the hell out of the 3.5 comics if the Olicity was Oliver lounging around her apartment while she played Mistress of the Universe at work, and then she comes home and, well, if she ever needs to tell somebody about her day...she can tell him. Right?

I have always felt that Oliver would be happiest as a house husband/SAHD. I know it won't happen because that isn't the fanboy fantasy for him, but as a person...if they were my friends, that's what I would want for them.

Another possibility is that he learns that...ok, look, anybody can be a vigilante, clearly, because anybody is. But not everybody can be a Queen, and while I don't want to see the Mayor Oliver storyline happen, I suspect that it will at some point. The Queen name is huge in SC and while tarnished, it has power. What Oliver can do that no one else can is leverage the name and his charm and fame to guide the city to some less shitty place.

I don't think Thea can just as easily. There is a restlessness (and a restiveness) in Thea, a wandering soul feeling to her, that is the opposite of Oliver. Has nothing to do with her paternity, just her as a person. International operative feels better for her. She would get bored living the kind of life that Oliver would thrive in. He's such a little Taurus homebody. He needs to be a dad.

When you think about it, his storyline has rested a lot upon the internal conflict between being like his father/not as great as his father/sometimes better than his father/fearing being his father/fearing not being able to live up to his father. You shove an Authoritative Book into a male character's hand knowing it was written by the symbol of patriarchy in their life, and they use that book for guidance and then figure out maybe it wasn't such a great idea and IMO it's clear what that symbolizes.

Edited May 9, 2015 by ostentatious

[Carrie Ann]

With the way it feels like the season will end, I kinda think the 3.5 comics might cover stuff that happened during the S3 time period that we didn't see or something. It seems like the first batch of Arrow comics (before 2.5) were meant to take place within the seasons (S1 or S2 depending on timing).

[TVHappy9463]

Not true there have been TV Couples who were/are generally happy. It's called good writing

I will agree to disagree. Please tell me which couples, perhaps it will give me hope. 

[nksarmi]

I will agree to disagree. Please tell me which couples, perhaps it will give me hope. 

Well as much as I have issues with Once in the second half of this season - I believe they have done a decent job of showing couples in various degrees of relationship and love.  While anything could happen, they have both Snow and Charming and Emma and Hook as what appear to be cemented relationships that get external angst but the couples themselves remain firm.  The couples that they have broken up or messed with involve a villain going through or failing at a redemption arc.

 

It seems that many assemble shows can have a couple happy for awhile, but will eventually break them up because an actor wants to leave or the writers feel like the story gets stale. So perhaps the best change Oliver and Felicity have is that Arrow doesn't run past season five.

[jay741982]

I will agree to disagree. Please tell me which couples, perhaps it will give me hope.

Chuck/Sarah from Chuck hooked up season 3 stayed together till the end. Howard/Bernadette and Penny/Leonard from Big Bang theory. Castle/Beckett from Castle Snow/Charming and Emma/Hook from OUAT I realize though that Opions vary though. Edited May 9, 2015 by jay741982

[wonderwall]

Coach Taylor/Tami Taylor from Friday Night Lights. They remain to be one of the best couples of all time.

I feel as though in shows where romance and relationships are a part of the A plot, relationships need to have angst and constant change like TV or even The Mindy Project. But with shows where romance is the B plot, it's not as necessary as the show can compensate the lack of angst in relationships with drama on another front like the villain. That's not to say there shouldn't be ANY angst between the couple in question. Just not as much.

[Chaser]

Michael/Nikita. I've mentioned them before as what I want Oliver and Felicity to be.

 

There was no will they or won't they. They got together at the end of S1 and that was it. They had their ups and downs (she had to cut of his hand to save his life once, he had a surprise child show up) but they never waived in what they were to each other. They were a team and they handled it. The drama of the show was external forces.

[tarotx]

A lot are mad Laurel's s not Oliver's love interest. My issue with her is she's not a right fit for BC. She just doesn't look the part after we got Sara nor does she have a back story that makes her BC believable. I really hate that she's not her own identity. Stop making her SWF Sara!

I'm hoping that they at least get her something to do where she doesn't have to wear the stupid wig. Rather that be more Laural or just ditch the wig.

I'm hoping that her and Diggle can build a crime fighting relationship. In The first appearence of BC she was fighting along side Johnny Thunder. Even Though Our John is not even close to that Johnny, I think it's a cute Easter Egg. Especially because it points to the show moving Laurel closer to the Mom BC instead of the Daughter version her name might suggest.

Plus I think Thunder is a cool nick name for Diggle.

There is a real DC thunder who is a teen who has a brother and father connection with HIVE. So even though he also doesn't fit Diggle, there are some connections.

And I think having a married super hero Could work. Oliver&Diggle would be the ones with issues. Olicity would have married life stuff. Like finding a house. Him dealing with her making the money, her worried about Oliver and Diggle not being close. There is tons they can do in a large cast. There is even the son issue where Laurel can talk to Felicity about what it was like not trusting Oliver. Oliver and Felicity can talk about how the 5 years changed him and that he can be trusted now. Plus they could have cute scenes Like they have Excelled at. And the worry scenes would be intense.

Edited May 9, 2015 by tarotx

[FurryFury]

I don't believe this show will let Oliver and Felicity be happy for more than half a season, season tops. If you're lucky, there will be a really good reason for their break up that makes sense (Buffy/Angel are a good example). With time, they will overcome this hurdle and get together for good (near the end of the show). But most likely, it will be something trite and horrible, like amnesia or his son or something like that.

As for the examples of other couples... Sorry, can't agree here, Michael and Nikita were just SO boring together, lack of chemistry sure didn't help, and also Michael quickly stopped being relevant to the main plot forcing the writers to create storylines just for him - his son, the loss of his hand, etc. They also marginalized better-written and more interesting characters to give him more screentime, which he didn't deserve. I hated this character and after season 3 dropped the show for good.

Mindy is another example of a show that just became boring after the main couple got together for good. Dropped it in s3.

OUAT is an ensemble show, which really matters for romances. Emma and Hook and Snow and Charming fare comparatively OK (well, Snowing are ruined as characters, but not as a couple) because they all are in the background giving space to the horrible soap opera of Regina, Robin, Belle and Rumple, but it can't continue forever. Pretty sure next season Emma and Hook, at least, will get their own share of melodrama, wait and see.

I do think it's theoretically possible for the show to get Olicity together for good, but that would require for the focus of the show to shift from Oliver to an extent, and y'all don't want that. There is a good reason why TV writers don't like to keep their leads happy for long, TV needs conflict to thrive and be interesting. Romance especially is often an easy source of conflict, and these writers don't seem like they're trying to push the conventions and try to create something new. It's all quite formulaic.

[tarotx]

It doesn't have to shift from Oliver. His big romantic conflict just won't be will or Won't they. Oliver has never had to be present in a family before. Being there physically and psychologically is a hurdle Oliver needs to go through to be whole. It's been an on going theme of the show. I can see how it could work with Felicity as his wife.

Not that I think there is an Olicity wedding in the finale but I do think Family will be season 4's theme.

[FurryFury]

It doesn't have to shift from Oliver. His big romantic conflict just won't be will or Won't they. Oliver has never had to be present in a family before. Being there physically and psychologically is a hurdle Oliver needs to go through to be whole. It's been an on going theme of the show. I can see how it could work with Felicity as his wife.

 

It could work for a season, but no longer, I'm afraid.

[nksarmi]

Michael/Nikita. I've mentioned them before as what I want Oliver and Felicity to be.

 

There was no will they or won't they. They got together at the end of S1 and that was it. They had their ups and downs (she had to cut of his hand to save his life once, he had a surprise child show up) but they never waived in what they were to each other. They were a team and they handled it. The drama of the show was external forces.

ETA: I was thinking of Michael/Nikita from Le Femme Nikita and didn't count them.  However, they were an amazing couple all the same somehow.

 

I want to count Piper and Leo from Charmed but even they got messed with by the end of the show's run.  Still they always loved each other.

 

I did forget about the many couples on Big Bang that seem to work.  Do sitcom pairings count?

Edited May 9, 2015 by nksarmi

[wingster55]

Felicity as permanent CEO? She's not equipped. 

 

I don't want an ending that's "Oliver and Felicity ride off into the sunset"

what kind of cliffhanger is that?

[nksarmi]

I think the best thing Arrow could do with Olicity - especially with how far they have gone this season - is to pair them up for the rest of the show's run and let any issues they face be external ones that might cause tension between them, but never moves them away from it being "their" love story.  I think the same thing needs to happen in regards to Emma and Hook on ONCE.

 

I think it is "ok" to have a couple be together but experience pain and other issues as long as that couple stays together and isn't paired off with anyone else.  I strongly suspect at this point, that most fans will no longer accept Oliver or Felicity dating anyone but each other.  (I think the same is true of Hook and Emma).  Once a couple reaches that point, writers have to tread carefully.

 

And frankly on Arrow, I don't think the writers have much choice but to keep Oliver and Felicity together.  At this point....

 

- No one - but no one - wants to see Oliver tell Felicity he loves her but they can't be together anymore. 

- Lauriver fans aside, not many people want to see Oliver or Felicity date anyone else now that they have proclaimed their love for each other.

- Now that Felicity has called him "My Oliver" no one really wants to see her tell him they can't be together.

 

So what choice do they have?  They literally have to keep them together or kill off Felicity or pull some weird shit like give one of them amnesia (if they do this - we are officially in soap opera land).  The best thing in the world they can do is pair them up and just let them face external problems like...

 

- If/when Oliver finds out about his son he considers moving to CC but Felicity wants to keep running the business in SC.

- Some relative of Felicity's (dad, unknown brother, etc...) turns out to be someone Oliver has to battle.

- Some female villain kidnaps Oliver and temporarily puts some love voodoo on him that Felicity has to break through.

 

Etc....

Felicity as permanent CEO? She's not equipped. 

 

I don't want an ending that's "Oliver and Felicity ride off into the sunset"

what kind of cliffhanger is that?

MG said "kind of" cliffhanger which most people believe will be a side-line introduction of Damien Darhk.  Since the show does a time jump between seasons and has the comics fill in that space, we aren't going to get a major cliffhanger.

[Guest]

Felicity as permanent CEO? She's not equipped. 

 

I don't want an ending that's "Oliver and Felicity ride off into the sunset"

what kind of cliffhanger is that?

 

Who said the position was permanent? We don't know yet.

 

Also, O/F driving off into the sunset is not a cliffhanger at all. A cliffhanger would be "Felicity, will you marry me?" and then end scene with no answer. (Just to qualify, I do not think this is what will happen, it's just an example.) So I highly doubt O/F has anything to do with the 'kinda' cliffhanger MG has mentioned before.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Guest

[ostentatious]

She spent a year running QC (Oliver sure wasn't running it, everything that came out of his office was due to her) and now a year as VP of PT. She's more qualified than anyone else who will be on the show in S4.

I accept that Laurel is going off on a life changing summer camp adventure with Nyssa and will come back more qualified to be the BC than anyone else. It's a comic book show. Felicity is the resident super genius. Running PT is well within the capabilities of the resident super genius of a comic book show.

Edited May 9, 2015 by ostentatious

[Starfish35]

Not to take away from the rest of your point, but I thought Isabel was running QC in season two.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Starfish35

[apinknightmare]

We don't have enough information to say what Felicity is and is not capable of regarding business management, because the only work we ever saw her do this year, when she was an actual Vice President, was on Ray's suit. Felicity knows what she can and cannot handle, and after working with Ray for the better part of a year she knows what the position requires, and if she doesn't feel equipped for it, then she's smart enough to ask for help or find someone who can actually do the job. 

 

If she ends up accepting and running the company like a champ, then so be it. This is a world where magical healing hot tubs exist and a guy runs around with a bow and arrow and manages to pretty regularly defeat dudes with high-powered weaponry - I can accept that a person as smart as Felicity is can run a company. 

[ostentatious]

Not to take away from the rest of your point, but I thought Isabel was running QC in season two.

There was a battle, but the Queen side was in that battle, because Oliver had control to sign over to Isabel. His office could not have been silent all year. I thought from Felicity's nagging that she was the person trying to keep up the pretense that Oliver was actually doing some work.

Edited May 9, 2015 by ostentatious

[SmallScreenDiva]

There was scene in "Broken Arrow" where Ray saw her in her office and asked what she was doing, she said something about checking the quarterly earnings report and finalizing a patent application. That made me think that Felicity was quite hands-on with the business side of Palmer Tech, so if she becomes CEO, I can buy that she has the smarts and experience to handle the job just fine.

[nksarmi]

SA said he wants Oliver to smile more in season four....oh dear lord if he can please get his wish!

[olicityfan25]

She can definitely run the company if it comes to that. Walter gave her high praise and even Moira saw her skills.

[wingster55]

We really haven't seen her exhibit any skills needed to run a company. Unless they pull it out of nowhere which is entirely possible. 

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I'm sure she learned absolutely nothing working as VP at Palmer Technologies. 

[wingster55]

Which we haven't seen. (Also a title she wasn't really qualified for...unless she learned a lot working in the IT department) 

[olicityfan25]

Once again not giving Felicity any credit. I wonder why you even talk about the character at all.

[wingster55]

Or maybe I refuse to give her too much credit. 

[apinknightmare]

Which we haven't seen. (Also a title she wasn't really qualified for...unless she learned a lot working in the IT department) 

 

You wrote that they would be pulling any management skills she has out of thin air, which they wouldn't since she's been VP of Palmer Technologies for however many months. Not saying she's qualified, but she's not completely unqualified. Do you need to see everything on this show to believe it? Laurel trained with Nyssa even though we didn't see it. Diggle has a life and a marriage with Lyla that we don't really see. Palmer Technologies is a profitable company, so she can't be doing that bad of a job.

[wingster55]

Do you need to see everything on this show to believe it?

 

Uh...yes. It's a visual medium. 

 

You wrote that they would be pulling any management skills she has out of thin air, which they wouldn't since she's been VP of Palmer Technologies for however many months.

 

We haven't seen her manage anything as VP. Have we?

 

And we may not have seen all the training Laurel has done with Nyssa but we did see them on the field which is a version of training. 

[apinknightmare]

Uh...yes. It's a visual medium. 

 

We haven't seen her manage anything as VP. Have we?

 

And we may not have seen all the training Laurel has done with Nyssa but we did see them on the field which is a version of training. 

 

Okay, so you don't need to see Laurel and Nyssa training to know that they've trained, just seeing the result of that training is okay? 

 

What exactly do you want to see Felicity manage? What would be riveting to you? Is hearing her talking about quarterly earnings and patent filings not enough to know that she does actual work as VP? They barely have enough time to show the actual important parts of this show, why are they going to waste time showing Felicity doing mundane administrative crap to show that she's doing the job that we already know she does? 

[wonderwall]

Uh...yes. It's a visual medium. 

 

We haven't seen her manage anything as VP. Have we?

 

And we may not have seen all the training Laurel has done with Nyssa but we did see them on the field which is a version of training. 

 

Here are a list of successful CEOs without business degrees: http://www.bloomberg.com/ss/09/05/0522_no_college_ceos/1.htm

 

So really, it's not unbelievable that Felicity would be a successful CEO considering she is a really intelligent woman who has a passion for her field. 

 

Not really difficult to believe tbqh. What's difficult to believe would be if Felicity went from being a fresh college graduate straight to being CEO of a multimillion dollar corporation which is a more accurate representation of Laurel's 'transformation' with Nyssa (considering just two episodes ago she could barely take down a thug then the next episode she's fending herself well against 3 league members?). 

Edited May 10, 2015 by wonderwall

[wingster55]

Her field is computers...running a company requires more than that. Just because the writers and Ray say that she's qualified/has the skills to run the company. It's a bit much to have her do everything well.

 

Okay, so you don't need to see Laurel and Nyssa training to know that they've trained, just seeing the result of that training is okay?

 

Sending Laurel out on the field and critiquing what she did wrong IS training. Her ability to take on the LOA is ridiculous but another matter entirely. 

Regardless..bringing up Laurel's uneven storyline doesn't have any barring on Felicity's.

[DrSpaceman10]

wrong thread

Edited May 10, 2015 by DrSpaceman10

[apinknightmare]

Sending Laurel out on the field and critiquing what she did wrong IS training. Her ability to take on the LOA is ridiculous but another matter entirely. 

Regardless..bringing up Laurel's uneven storyline doesn't have any barring on Felicity's.

 

I'm not bringing up Laurel's storyline to compare it to Felicity's, I'm merely pointing out that we have never seen Laurel and Nyssa actually training (Nyssa showing her the moves she's critiquing) - we've only seen them fighting together, which is the result of that training, and yet you aren't questioning that they've actually trained, even though you haven't seen it. You don't believe Felicity's been doing any sort of meaningful Vice Presidenting offscreen because you haven't seen it, but you have seen her talking about quarterly earnings reports and patent filings - typical company running stuff. Seems a little hypocritical to me.

 

Personally, I'm glad they haven't shown more of Felicity doing day-to-day work. I love her, but I imagine that would be more boring than the flashbacks this season.

Edited May 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

Her field is computers...running a company requires more than that. Just because the writers and Ray say that she's qualified/has the skills to run the company. It's a bit much to have her do everything well.

 

I wonder if you complained when Oliver took over QC as CEO? Because in reality he had zero skills yet Moira thought it would be prudent for him to become CEO? Again, Felicity is an intelligent woman and it's not like her VP won't help her with things she doesn't understand. Again, you don't need a business degree to run a company. You need the knowledge, yes, but Felicity was learning that on the job as VP (because honestly, what else was she doing? In episode 11 when Ray walked into her office she was talking about how she was going over some financial statements so it's not like she's an idiot), and she'll learn as CEO as long as she pays attention to the company unlike Oliver. 

[olicityfan25]

Except the person who brought up Laurel also brought up Diggle. So really Laurel is fair game to talk about how her rise to being a "fighter" is done all in the background. At least we see Felicity at PT and at least we saw her help Ray with the suit. We haven't seen Laurel training since Ted Grant. Her whole storyline is a take from others (Sara).

[wingster55]

but you have seen her talking about quarterly earnings reports and patent filings - typical company running stuff. Seems a little hypocritical to me.

 

But you just said it. Talk 

Not show...they showed the result of the off-screen training (with more training) 

they didn't just mention the training without showing it.

 

I wonder if you complained when Oliver took over QC as CEO? Because in reality he had zero skills yet Moira thought it would be prudent for him to become CEO?

 

I don't recall...regardless he also was under qualified and the show imo didn't suggest otherwise. Isabel was really the person running things and he lost it in a way that showed his inexperience (and his attempt to regain also showed it) 

Edited May 10, 2015 by wingster55

[apinknightmare]

But you just said it. Talk 

Not show...they showed the result of the off-screen training (with more training) 

they didn't just mention the training without showing it. 

 

So...what. You want to actually see her pull up the earnings reports? You want to see the mouse clicks? You want to see her in a board meeting? I'm not being snarky here, but you're complaining about Laurel and Thea not having screen time together, and you want the show to devote screen time to showing Felicity doing paperwork? 

Edited May 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

But you just said it. Talk 

Not show...they showed the result of the off-screen training (with more training) 

they didn't just mention the training without showing it. 

 

Palmer trusted Felicity's intelligence and skills enough to hand her the company. Otherwise he wouldn't have unless he wanted PT to fail? Clearly he thinks that Felicity is capable. I feel like the only people who don't think she's capable are the ones who are constantly undermining her intelligence and character (AKA the people who don't like her) because I need to mention yet again, that you don't need to have a business degree to successfully run a business (look at Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Michael Dell etc.)

Edited May 10, 2015 by wonderwall

[TanyaKay]

Both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were college drop outs and extremely successful CEOs of multi billion dollar tech companies.

In a show where we got an insta canary who excelled in hand to hand combat after weeks of training as a boxer, a magical hot tub with powers of resurrection and a city of blind people where no one recognizes Malcolm Merlyn, a genius with two degrees running a company is the most believable thing. I would not only buy that, I would eat it with a spoon.

Edited May 10, 2015 by TanyaKay

[wingster55]

So...what. You want to actually see her pull up the earnings reports? You want to see the mouse clicks? You want to see her in a board meeting? I'm not being snarky here, but you're complaining about Laurel and Thea not having screen time together, and you want the show to devote screen time to showing Felicity doing paperwork?

 

I want all of that, yes. If she's the CEO for good and not just waiting to give it back to Oliver (or even if she does but acts as it for a significant time) I want to see her do CEO things from time to time...wouldn't be boring at all to me. 

 

Palmer trusted Felicity's intelligence and skills enough to hand her the company. Otherwise he wouldn't have unless he wanted PT to fail? Clearly he thinks that Felicity is capable. I feel like the only people who don't think she's capable are the ones who are constantly undermining her intelligence and character (AKA the people who don't like her) because I need to mention yet again, that you don't need to have a business degree to successfully run a business (look at Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Michael Dell etc.)

 

But when did I say she needed a business degree? 

 

In a show where we got an insta canary who excelled in hand to hand combat after weeks of training as a boxer, a magical hot tub with powers of resurrection and a city of blind people where no one recognizes Malcolm Merltn, a genius with two degrees running a company is the most believable thing. I would not only buy that, I would eat it with a spoon.

 

 

I think it's just as ridiculous. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by wingster55

[TanyaKay]

Lolz, they never showed anyone take a bath except Oliver Queen, does that mean everyone is filthy in Starling City and stinks like hell?

[apinknightmare]

I want all of that, yes. If she's the CEO for good and not just waiting to give it back to Oliver (or even if she does but acts as it for a significant time) I want to see her do CEO things from time to time...wouldn't be boring at all to me.

I wouldn't mind seeing her do CEO things from time-to-time, but weren't you arguing that you didn't think she was qualified to be CEO because you haven't seen her do those things already?

[wingster55]

Lolz, they never showed anyone take a bath except Oliver Queen, does that mean everyone is filthy in Starling City and stinks like hell?

 

That's really not the same thing at all. 

 

I wouldn't mind seeing her do CEO things from time-to-time, but weren't you arguing that you didn't think she was qualified to be CEO because you haven't seen her do those things already?

 

And if I do, I would most likely change my stance. 

[wonderwall]

We honestly haven't seen if Felicity feels like she's in over her head being CEO and whether she struggles or not. I hope we see her struggling a bit in the beginning but getting a handle of it later in season 4. People are acting like she's going to be a pro right off the bat, that may not be the case.

Edited May 10, 2015 by wonderwall

[wingster55]

Thea (a college/high school dropout) successfully running Verdant?

 

I really wish we saw more of this. 

Random times of doing inventory doesn't cut it. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by wingster55

[olicityfan25]

Omg lol Isabel wasn't shown at all to be running things.