Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

If people really expect Oliver to never be forgiven for his actions then I guess the show is finished now. Bye!

 

In real life I would not forgive someone for drugging me, even if it was for my own good/safety. But this is a world where these people work on secret plans and drug each other all the time. There's a magical pit that brings people back to life. I just don't apply real life forgiveness requirements to this. In the show, I think given Oliver's situation and fears and stubbornness, everything he's done makes sense to me, and I don't see forgiveness being out of reach for him by a long shot. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

There is forgiving, and then there is forgetting. 

[Guest]

But no one is saying that everything should be automatically forgiven or forgotten. Just that there should be some understanding that these are dire circumstances and sometimes horrible things are a necessary evil to save lives. 

 

And clearly Oliver earning forgiveness is going to be part of the story going forward. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by Guest

[jay741982]

If people really expect Oliver to never be forgiven for his actions then I guess the show is finished now. Bye!

LOL so true I do want SOME happiness at the end of this season. Maybe Diggle and Laurel stay pissed and Thea and Felicity Forgive?

[NoWayOut]

‏MG's reply to a question on whether the marriage is legally binding.

 

@mguggenheim  ·  12h 12 hours ago

@ltWasRed There's actually a line about it in the season finale.

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/596151123355897857

[AyChihuahua]

"And clearly Oliver earning forgiveness is going to part of the story going forward."

 

I guess I'm not so sure that that is accurate, but more importantly to me, I wouldn't expect them ever to forget or trust him again.  Because anything he does, ever, could be part of some grand plan.  So if I were Felicity or Digg, I'd tell him I forgive him, and I never want to see him again. 

[apinknightmare]

There is forgiving, and then there is forgetting. 

 

I agree, but these people are not your average thinkers. Just two eps ago Oliver told Felicity he loved her more for drugging him to try to get him out of the League. Felicity had no qualms about shooting Oliver with a tranq dart to prevent him from turning himself over from Slade. There is a level of trust they have between each other that makes these things possible without serious long-term repercussions like you or I would probably have if our friends did this to us. 

 

Oliver asked the team to trust him. I agree that it's scary and terrible that they thought they were dying, but he tricked Ra's in order to keep them alive. When they wake up, I think they'll understand that. Well, some of them will, some probably won't. I think Diggle and Laurel are wildcards, since Dig's already pissed about Lyla and Laurel doesn't seem to trust him much anyway. I think Felicity and Ray might move past it relatively quickly. 

[Guest]

"And clearly Oliver earning forgiveness is going to part of the story going forward."

 

I guess I'm not so sure that that is accurate, but more importantly to me, I wouldn't expect them ever to forget or trust him again.  Because anything he does, ever, could be part of some grand plan.  So if I were Felicity or Digg, I'd tell him I forgive him, and I never want to see him again. 

 

First, I apologize for my earlier snark. I was getting frustrated. I'm sorry.

 

But there wouldn't be any point to further the story if Oliver was never forgiven or trusted again. What would be the point of continuing the show if everyone just said 'We never want to see you again!'?

[tv echo]

I'm thinking the line in the season finale will indicate that the marriage is legally binding (unfortunately).  Otherwise, why would MG have previously said that they haven't decided yet whether to have the marriage carry into S4?  If it's clear in the finale that it's not binding, then there's no question.

[apinknightmare]

I'm thinking the line in the season finale will indicate that the marriage is legally binding (unfortunately).  Otherwise, why would MG have previously said that they haven't decided yet whether to have the marriage carry into S4?  If it's clear in the finale that it's not binding, then there's no question.

 

I think he said that just to screw with people, because the answer doesn't make sense either way, because either way they know. If it's not legally binding (and honestly, how could it be?), then they know it's not carrying into S4. If it is legally binding (which, seriously. bullshit), then it is carrying into S4. 

[AyChihuahua]

"But there wouldn't be any point to further the story if Oliver was never forgiven or trusted again. What would be the point of continuing the show if everyone just said 'We never want to see you again!'?"

 

That is an out-of-show reason.  I need an in-show reason.  For example, if it turns out that Digg and the rest did know and the deathbed convo was for the LOA, that'd be fine.  Or if they at least have a very serious discussion, ON THE SHOW, about how he will never do anything like that again, EVER EVER EVER, no excuses forever, then maybe. 

 

Also, he worked at least some of this out with Malcolm a long time ago, and trusted Malcolm, the dude who screws everyone over all the time, but didn't trust DIGG.  I can somewhat see not telling Felicity back then, but Digg is a soldier and, as he told Barry, "keeps secrets for a living."  Digg didn't tell his own wife Barry was the Flash.  Knowing that Oliver was going into this with a plan back then would have gone a long way towards avoiding all this.

 

"I'm thinking the line in the season finale will indicate that the marriage is legally binding (unfortunately).  Otherwise, why would MG have previously said that they haven't decided yet whether to have the marriage carry into S4?  If it's clear in the finale that it's not binding, then there's no question."

 

I'm honestly not worried about that.  For many reasons, but primarily I think he's just trolling, plus I really think it'll be referenced, in a humorous way, every time Nyssa shows up.  Someone brought up Felicity babbling about being Oliver's mistress, which could be quite funny.

Edited May 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Carrie Ann]

"And clearly Oliver earning forgiveness is going to part of the story going forward."

 

I guess I'm not so sure that that is accurate, but more importantly to me, I wouldn't expect them ever to forget or trust him again.  Because anything he does, ever, could be part of some grand plan.  So if I were Felicity or Digg, I'd tell him I forgive him, and I never want to see him again. 

 

We're not so used to seeing it on this show, where things have become very VERY silly and grandiose and black-and-white, but on better shows, when characters make difficult decisions, the people in their lives will have varied reactions. So while you (and apparently Dig) would have a very hard time ever trusting Oliver again or allowing him back into your life, that doesn't mean that every character or every person who watches this show or posts on this site would react the same way. Personally, I appreciate that (it seems) we will end the season with some people forgiving Oliver, and others not. If that variation in reaction is a dealbreaker for you, or if you feel that it is really OOC for Felicity or whomever, then I get feeling that way. But you're already not watching the show, so I'm not sure what else you can do to cut ties with it.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[apinknightmare]

That is an out-of-show reason.  I need an in-show reason.  For example, if it turns out that Digg and the rest did know and the deathbed convo was for the LOA, that'd be fine.  Or if they at least have a very serious discussion, ON THE SHOW, about how he will never do anything like that again, EVER EVER EVER, no excuses forever, then maybe. 

 

What is different about this than any of the other plans Oliver has kept them out of but have turned out okay? Not telling Felicity about Slade. Felicity and Diggle drugging him to keep him from turning himself in. Felicity and Diggle keeping the plan to rescue Roy from prison. These people do these things to each other ALL THE TIME. I just don't see how this is any different from any of the situations before for anyone except for maybe Diggle, because Oliver went after Lyla. I mean...to me, this is just commonplace for these people now. 

[catahoulamama]

Didn't they cut from Oliver to Felicity when they said about the vow between man and woman? I thought it was pretty obvious that the vows had more meaning where Oliver and Felicity were concerned. Oliver and Nyssa don't love each other. They don't even know each other so there was no weight behind the words. They were just meaningless for O/N. I thought it was meant to be like a heartbreaking sort of contrast that Oliver was marrying the wrong person.

 

This show is as subtle as a brick.

 

And I'm not excusing the wedding, btw. Or saying that it won't cause problems. Just that I really don't see how a few words could bond O/N emotionally.

I thought the cut to Felicity & Digg dying while those words were recited were just to tell the audience that Olicity love each other so, yeah, she just "died" thinking he left her there, but y'know "love means never having to say you're sorry (for leaving you to die a terrifying death while watching me walk away and leave you there and showing no emotion)" LOL

 

Also, I understand those arguing that TA did something similar to Oliver by not letting him in on Roy's "death" plan, but IMO, it's much different. Aside from the fact that none of them seem to truly trust each other, what Oliver did was more than just not let them in on his plan, and to use the "but he was protecting them" argument to completely excuse it doesn't cut it for me.  Frankly, that's Oliver's excuse for every stupid, ridiculous, and hurtful thing he's done since he returned from Lian Yu.  They didn't let him on the plan with Roy so he wouldn't have to do exactly what he's done now with the LoA - give up his life to save another. His, let's call it a "transgression" included TA feeling personally hurt and betrayed by Oliver.  For TA's "transgression" against Oliver to be equivalent, Oliver would have been in Roy's place (the one being "killed") and would have been totally unaware of the plan. On top of that, Digg would have been the guard who stuck him with the knife.

 

This show just jumped 10,000 sharks for me with this episode...so much unintentional humor to be found throughout. Whoever it was who said it had become Adam West's Batman was right on the money...only thing missing was the colorful "POW!" "ZING!" "BANG!" graphics. LOL

[tv echo]

I think he said that just to screw with people, because the answer doesn't make sense either way, because either way they know. If it's not legally binding (and honestly, how could it be?), then they know it's not carrying into S4. If it is legally binding (which, seriously. bullshit), then it is carrying into S4. 

If it is legally binding, then it could either (1) be annulled during the summer hiatus (shown in the 3.5 comics, referenced in 4x01) and then it would be over before S4 began, or (2) continue into S4 for some plot reason.

 

I don't recall... has MG ever outright lied to us (as opposed to skirting an answer)?

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

"But you're already not watching the show, so I'm not sure what else you can do to cut ties with it."

 

I can stop hoping to come back in S4.

[apinknightmare]

Also, I understand those arguing that TA did something similar to Oliver by not letting him in on Roy's "death" plan, but IMO, it's much different. Aside from the fact that none of them seem to truly trust each other, what Oliver did was more than just not let them in on his plan, and to use the "but he was protecting them" argument to completely excuse it doesn't cut it for me.  

 

I'm one of the people who has equated this with the Roy thing, and I don't think the situations are the same, but I think they can be compared, because it's basically an, "I know what I'm doing, please trust me" situation, and it proves to me that they DO have trust in each other, because they go along with this stuff despite not knowing exactly what's going on ALL THE TIME, for various reasons that don't always have to do with protecting each other (or Oliver wanting to protect his team/loved ones), but just for the basic reason of needing to "sell it." 

[catahoulamama]

I think he said that just to screw with people, because the answer doesn't make sense either way, because either way they know. If it's not legally binding (and honestly, how could it be?), then they know it's not carrying into S4. If it is legally binding (which, seriously. bullshit), then it is carrying into S4. 

I took his statement to mean that they hadn't decided whether it would be taken care of over the time lapse of summer hiatus and they'd just throw in a couple lines of dialogue to clue in the audience, or if they would actually address it onscreen in S4.

[apinknightmare]

I took his statement to mean that they hadn't decided whether it would be taken care of over the time lapse of summer hiatus and they'd just throw in a couple lines of dialogue to clue in the audience, or if they would actually address it onscreen in S4.

 

Could be!

 

Although if they're going to try to claim that this wedding is legally binding, uh...I'm gonna need more than a line to explain how that works.

[tarotx]

And Oliver is doing what he's doing so Ra's doesn't actually kill the people and city Oliver loves. These people are the ones who lie and drug Oliver (And Barry) for his own good. Oliver's was bigger but the same motive.

[catahoulamama]

I'm one of the people who has equated this with the Roy thing, and I don't think the situations are the same, but I think they can be compared, because it's basically an, "I know what I'm doing, please trust me" situation, and it proves to me that they DO have trust in each other, because they go along with this stuff despite not knowing exactly what's going on ALL THE TIME, for various reasons that don't always have to do with protecting each other (or Oliver wanting to protect his team/loved ones), but just for the basic reason of needing to "sell it." 

With all the things cited that they've all done to each other over the years under the "trust me" banner, none of them outside of this have been "Trust me even though it looks AND really feels like I'm letting you be murdered in front my eyes while I don't lift a finger". That's just a different level altogether AFAIC.   A simple "trust me" doesn't quite cut it in those circumstances.  That said, this show defies all logic and believability on a weekly basis, and this season has pretty much become a live-action cartoon, so I don't hold out hope for especially realistic or satisfying emotional responses to anything. LOL

[tarotx]

Oliver's actions might be more unpleasant but he also has bigger stakes.

[nksarmi]

If people really expect Oliver to never be forgiven for his actions then I guess the show is finished now. Bye!

Actually, I think it will go more like this....

 

Laurel's feelings for Oliver will more or less be unchanged.  She wavers in how she feels about him at times because of plot, but more or less, she has a resentment filled relationship with him where she kind of admires his efforts to fight crime, but knows he doesn't respect her enough to ever really be honest with her.  So this is all kind of par for the course with them.

 

Roy will be spared any hard feelings if he gets to come back and Thea will just be happy to have her brother back.  I see some strong times coming for the future brother/sister team next season which will make me kind of happy.  I've probably liked Oliver the best this season when he's been paired with Willa/Thea.

 

Tatsu comes from a bit of a spygate background and she certainly knows what it means to do what you must given that she just killed Maseo and he thanked her for it.  If we are blessed enough for her to return, she will work with Oliver without hesitation.

 

Ray likely won't hold much against him.  They weren't close and Ray knows a thing or two about just doing what you think you must without stopping to consider other's feelings.  He's likely to "get" it more than the rest of them.

 

Malcolm either knows or won't bat an eye at it. After all, he did drug his daughter and forced her to kill her friend.  He might even respect Oliver more for it.

 

Lyla worked with Waller so she is used to extreme measures and secrets.  It might not actually bother her, but I don't see her letting Oliver around her daughter any time soon.

 

So, no everyone will not just write him off.

 

It's really just Diggle and Felicity that all the debate is about. 

 

What I think will happen is that Felicity WILL forgive him because she will just be so damn happy to have him back after she thought she lost him, she will hand wave it all.  Given how much she loves him, the fact that they were only able to express that love to each other once, and then she thought she lost him to the LoA not just in body but in mind as well - she is going to be so overwhelmed when he looks at her and she can see "him" again in his eyes that she is going to melt and not think twice about all the hurt and lies.  Her issues with what happened and with him will surface later in season four.  As to rather or not they work through those trust issues down the road will depend on if he starts telling her more or if he stays on the path of keeping her in the dark and not relying on her.

 

Diggle on the other hand will not forgive so easily and certainly will not trust again any time soon.  I think he will work with Oliver - especially when HIVE becomes an issue in season four, but its going to take something HUGE for their bromance to be restored.  Oliver is going to have to prove to Diggle that he trusts him with everything and that Diggle never has to worry about Oliver putting Lyla or Sara in an ounce of danger ever again. 

[Guest]

I agree. I think the issue largely revolves around Felicity and Diggle because they're his family now. They made a point of highlighting that with the Diggle family dinner (including Thea) in 321. And I think their issues with Oliver will tie in nicely next season when I'm guessing the theme will be all about 'family.' 

[AyChihuahua]

I wonder if the next episode will make it possible for the Arrow to come back to SC again, or what.  I mean, he'll be involved in "saving the city" again, but he's also once again the reason the city needs to be saved.  I also can't see Diggle being willing to work with him again anytime soon after this season.  So maybe he really will work under the auspices of ARGUS, with Digg in charge of TA?  That could be interesting.  Maybe Lyla takes over ARGUS?  That would all really work for me.  They could still be in SC that way, because I think this show needs to stay tied there and not try to go global other than as needed for the HIVE/Darkh plot, and ARGUS could basically order the SCPD to stand down (not possible IRL, but this is Arrow). 

 

I want more villains of the week, too.  More small victories along the way.

[nksarmi]

And Oliver is doing what he's doing so Ra's doesn't actually kill the people and city Oliver loves. These people are the ones who lie and drug Oliver (And Barry) for his own good. Oliver's was bigger but the same motive.

Ok but just remember that Oliver did not go into this situation with Ra's to save the city that he loves.  He went into this situation to save Thea knowing that eventually he would be expected to destroy SC.  Also, try to remember that Oliver only got into this situation because when he found out Malcolm drugged Thea to kill Sara, he didn't snatch the damn phone out of Merlyn's hands, put an arrow in his eye, and turn Malcolm over to Nyssa then and there. 

[MostlyC]

Are you guys TRYING to break me?  Congratulations, you've broken me.  SIX pages.  *sob*   The season ends next week, and then there will be no more spoilers until July-ish.  And I'll be able to get some sleep on Wednesdays.

 

Although I'll probably dream of Arrow, where the next season is less controversial, more exciting, less Hong Koma flashbacks, better flashbacks, more Diggle/Ollie bromance, more romance, the return of Fernlicity, and less Laurel who leaves Starling City to train with Nyssa.  I've seen enough Nanda Parbat to last a lifetime.

 

CAN YOU SEE WHAT THIS TOPIC HAS DONE TO ME?!  It's only a tv show.  It's only a tv show.... *rocks back and forth*

 

 

Excuse me, I must go see the PTV therapist immediately. I have her on speed dial.

[NumberCruncher]

But that said, I really think Malcolm could have told Diggle and Felicity what was going on when they got back.  Those two could have been in on everything, from Lyla's abduction to the attempt to stop the bioweapon this past episode.  Not having faith that they could handle it is bad.  And frankly, Oliver's lack of faith in his team is exactly why they didn't tell him what the plan was with Roy.  They need Oliver would never have enough faith in Roy and their plan to let it play out.  He would have jumped the gun and messed things up. 

 

On the other hand, Felicity and Diggle have shown a huge amount of faith in Oliver that I believe if he had let them in on things from at least the point where they get back from NP - they would have supported him and played their part without issue.  The problem here is not that Felicity and Diggle don't have enough faith in Oliver - the problem is that he shows remarkably little faith in them and that should led them to question rather or not they want to continue to trust him.

I think this is the main crux of my criticism right here. The showrunners have essentially destroyed the deep trust that had developed between Team Arrow over the prior 2 seasons. They've also done the same thing on an individual character basis by erasing 2 years worth of personal growth. What's the point of having these characters go through all of these plotlines if the EPs and writers are just going to turn around and pretend like they didn't even happen next season? Even worse, the angst/drama they go through ends up being basically the same thing over and over again.

 

I personally don't get the want for pissed off chsracters. Felicity being mad at Oliver for hooking up with Melcolm to defeat Ra's already happened.I don't want to see it again.

I rather watch Oliver have to earn their trust back because that is the big deal here. I don't want anger and frustration More than that Diggle punching Oliver scene. That's no fun.

But Felicity and Diggle would have trust issues. Not fear of Oliver being bad and turning on them because that's not something Oliver has done. And it's annoying. But weariness that he never shares himself with them? For sure. He's a loner in a team when there should be no I in team.

Agreed. For my own sanity I need there to be some follow through in terms of acknowledging what happened and some recompense for both Diggle and Felicity. Again, why even have a team if you're going to not tell them what's going on and make them go through all the terrible emotions that go along with lying to them "for their own good." Sadly, I doubt we'll get it beyond Diggle punching Oliver in the face.

As for as Olicity, I would like to see them back to their flirty playful ways but not dating yet. Though at the same time not dating anyone else. No angst. I want them not a couple but actually a couple in all but name. Then one day Felicity will decide that Oliver is the man she knew him to be until this BS S3. They will learn to trust each other.

I, too, want a temporary reset after all of the unnecessary dreck that has happened this season between them. I don't want Felicity to punish Oliver, but I think it would be healthy for them to step back and learn to be friends/partners again because everything went from a nice, slow progression to sudden whiplash pace filled with an endless stream of ill feelings and deception. As much as I loathe drawing the comparison, Oliver lying to the woman he loves was the base argument as to why Lauriver sucked so badly. I don't need that to also apply in his relationship with Felicity. S4 needs to be filled with a lot of truth-telling for my own viewing sanity.

I think the show married Oliver and Nyssa to give him a small link to HIVE. Damien Darhk is an arch nemesis of Nyssa's father. Plus I can see her mother having some link to bratva.

I think you're giving the showrunners way too much credit in terms of storyline foresight. MG even made the comment that they're unsure what to do with the Oliver/Nyssa marriage in S4 so I don't think they really thought all that hard about it while writing 3x22 beyond making Ra's seem more eeeeevil and creating more Olicity angst. That's not to say that they won't eventually weave it all together in some way to the H.I.V.E. story, but I get the strong impression this was shoot first, figure out how to dispose of the bodies later.

[tv echo]

I thought Oliver went into this situation originally to save Starling City.  Ra's threatens to destroy SC if Oliver doesn't surrender Sara's killer.  Oliver goes to duel Ra's.  He loses but survives, and returns to train with Malcolm in anticipation of a second duel with Ra's. Ra's finds out Oliver is alive and makes him the offer to become his Heir because of the prophecy.  Ra's stabs Thea, forcing Oliver's capitulation.  Oliver and Malcolm plot to have Oliver dismantle the LOA from the inside.  Ra's tells Oliver that he has to wed Nyssa and then destroy SC with the virus.  Oliver sends Malcolm to TA to get help.

 

I agree Felicity will forgive Oliver, but Diggle will take longer to reconcile with Oliver, and that both will have trust issues going forward.  I would also add that Felicity has always been concerned more for Oliver's soul/humanity than he has been (you're not a killer, there's got to be another way, you're a hero). Knowing that he didn't succumb completely to the darkness of the LOA will make her happy.

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[Guest]

Guys, I still need Malcolm to be the bad guy. I NEED it. If he's not doing this to become the next Ra's, I wonder if he's affiliated himself with Damien Darhk and this is all some bigger plan that no one expected. 

 

Also, if the rumors of DD being Felicity's dad are true (not sure I believe or want that yet, I'm still processing) then it makes sense why Malcolm was so protective of Felicity out in the field in 322 and lets her talk crap about him.

 

Hmmm...

Edited May 7, 2015 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

He went for Thea, because the threat to kill civilians was if Oliver didn't turn over Sara's killer, which was officially Thea. 

[tv echo]

OK, so he went to duel Ra's to save both Thea and SC.  But, IIRC, he didn't know that he would be expected to destroy SC until Ra's told him in 3x22.

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[AyChihuahua]

I really don't want DD to be her father.  I was neutral before when I thought they'd go with comics DD, but now that he's a contemporary of Ra's, I just can't.  Some hundred-year-old warrior dude took 7-ish years out of his life to hook up with a cocktail waitress in Vegas? 

 

It will be an interesting contrast with Ra's if they go with DD himself being quite tech-savvy, since Ra's is pretty much grooving on the Dark Ages.

 

"OK, so he went to duel Ra's to save both Thea and SC.  But, IIRC, he didn't know that he would be expected to destroy SC until Ra's told him in 3x22."

 

I'm not the expert on this, but I think the idea is that he did not know at the time of the duel, but he did know when he went to save Thea with the LP.  I believe MM told him. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[tv echo]

I'm not the expert on this, but I think the idea is that he did not know at the time of the duel, but he did know when he went to save Thea with the LP.  I believe MM told him. 

I don't recall this, but I could be wrong.

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

The more I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing winds up actually strengthening Oliver and Felicity's relationship. Crazy talk, I know, but here's why:

 

When Oliver went to Felicity and told her that he was working with Malcolm, she (rightfully so) went off on him, because...hello! He got you into this stupid mess! Diggle didn't take too kindly to it either. But I thought at the time the "only the student can defeat the master" BS was about Malcolm teaching Oliver how to sword fight, but that was only a part of it. Malcolm also was the only one who could give Oliver the knowledge he needed about the inner workings of the League and what to expect from his initiation. Now, true, he probably didn't know he'd need that until he learned about the prophecy and by that time he and Felicity were on good terms, so I can see why he wouldn't want to open up that can of worms once he thought he *might* have to accept Ra's offer. 

 

So, Malcolm probably gives him info on what kind of drugs they use to brainwash people, giving Oliver time to build up a resistance or at least be prepared for it. Lets him know what will happen when he ascends in 5 or so months, that he's going to have to destroy Starling. He needs to know HOW Ra's plans on making him do that. He knows for sure he can't risk them trying to break him out before he finds out what Ra's is planning on making him do to destroy Starling. If he tells them Ra's plans on making him destroy Starling, how DO they wait for this plan to come to fruition? Malcolm and Oliver obviously have check-ins scheduled (or at least A check in scheduled) but their whole timeline is fucked. Malcolm decided not to tell the team about the plan because he didn't think they were good actors, but Oliver needs them to come and help with the bioweapon, so they work that out. Ra's is throwing things he didn't expect at Oliver left and right, and turns out when Oliver finally gets the team to NP he's given himself away as a mole. Thankfully Tatsu murdered Maseo so they can pawn the disloyalty off on him. Oliver has to be SUPER CAREFUL about what he says and does, so he merely tells Felicity she needs to trust him, because maybe he doesn't even know what he's going to do at this point. 

 

Oliver not telling Diggle and Felicity about his plan with Malcolm seems to me like it's not so much that he doesn't trust them, but that he knows they don't trust his judgment, especially when it comes to Malcolm. But what else can he do? No one else can give him info on the inner-workings of the League. He tells Diggle and Felicity, and they're not going to go along with it - they might even hatch up their own plan because they don't trust Malcolm and everything is ruined. 

 

Scary moment for Diggle and Felicity, thinking Oliver might be leaving them to die. But he asked them to trust him, and in the end, he's sticking to his word and he's keeping the team safe. So, I really don't see how anything he's done has given anyone (apart from Diggle, I guess) any reason not to trust him - he will ultimately succeed in getting them out of the mess he brought them into when he asked for their help. 

 

So, if Felicity's trust in him is solidified or unbroken after that, I won't be mad at it.

I'm not the expert on this, but I think the idea is that he did not know at the time of the duel, but he did know when he went to save Thea with the LP.  I believe MM told him. 

 

Yes, that's right. Malcolm told Oliver he was going to have to destroy Starling to ascend to Ra's position.

Edited May 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Soulfire]

I don't recall... has MG ever outright lied to us (as opposed to skirting an answer)?

 

He did reply on Twitter once, to a question if Laurel would be getting a canary cry, "No", but that might have been long enough ago that it hadn't been decided that they were incorporating a canary cry in the show the way they did two episodes ago. Other than that, I can't recall him outright lying -- though I could be wrong.

[apinknightmare]

He did reply on Twitter once, to a question if Laurel would be getting a canary cry, "No", but that might have been long enough ago that it hadn't been decided that they were incorporating a canary cry in the show the way they did two episodes ago. Other than that, I can't recall him outright lying -- though I could be wrong.

 

Technically that's not really a lie, because I seem to recall that question and I think the fan asked if she was getting the/her canary cry as in would she be becoming a metahuman, and so far that's true. 

[Chaser]

Oliver has two more things before becoming Ra's. I'm assuming one is destorying SC, I had thought the other may be killing Diggle/Felicity but Ra's is going to think they are dead already. Is the other make a baby? I have a feeling Ra's already designed the baby room.

[statsgirl]

On the other hand, Felicity and Diggle have shown a huge amount of faith in Oliver that I believe if he had let them in on things from at least the point where they get back from NP - they would have supported him and played their part without issue.  The problem here is not that Felicity and Diggle don't have enough faith in Oliver - the problem is that he shows remarkably little faith in them and that should led them to question rather or not they want to continue to trust him.

 

At this point I care not one bit about any of the Ra's plot because it's been crap from the start. What I care about is what it has done to the relationships between Oliver and Diggle/Felicity.  And what I see is that the relationships have been irrevocably damaged.

 

 

If people really expect Oliver to never be forgiven for his actions then I guess the show is finished now. Bye!

I fully expect Diggle and Felicity to forgive Oliver.  It will all be explained away on the show as it has been here, Oliver couldn't do anything else, Oliver was caught unaware and did the best he could to protect them, Oliver couldn't tell Felicity because she can't lie, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.  There are a million reasons if you want to believe.

 

What is finished for me is Olicity.  Felicity is a fool if she ever trusts Oliver completely again because this entire season he has been showing her that he doesn't trust her either with his plans or to make decisions for herself.  And without trust there is no true relationship. 

 

Right now, I can't stand to see the picture of Felicity smiling at Oliver in next week's episode.  That is a relationship I've lost all respect for.

Edited May 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

"Oliver has two more things before becoming Ra's. I'm assuming one is destorying SC, I had thought the other may be killing Diggle/Felicity but Ra's is going to think they are dead already. Is the other make a baby? I have a feeling Ra's already designed the baby room."

 

I would guess marrying Nyssa was the other, although he also still has to kill Ra's or whatever.  Totally agree with you on the nursery.  Lots of draperies, I think.

 

Is there any virus left, or was what was maybe on the plane/lobbed at TA it?  Is Ra's moving on to destroying SC by more traditional means, or is the virus still in play at this point? 

Edited May 7, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Soulfire]

From next week's promo images -- 

 

 

Nice to see you back, Heart Eyes Oliver Queen. How we missed you.

[apinknightmare]

Is there any virus left, or was what was maybe on the plane/lobbed at TA it?  Is Ra's moving on to destroying SC by more traditional means, or is the virus still in play at this point? 

 

This is where I'm confused. 

 

The plane was a plant, so there wasn't anything on there, but either Ra's has two vials (one that he thought he used on TA, and one that he's using in Starling, because he does still seem to want to use it in Starling), or he knows what he gave TA was a fake and has other plans for them and only ever had one vial of the virus. 

[Password]

Barry Allen stop being so cute!!!!!

[Chaser]

LOL Everyone looks so smiley in the photos and WTF is that picture of Barry looking in? He looks like a creeper.

[apinknightmare]

Barry looks like such a dorky peeping Tom in this picture: 

 

[Carrie Ann]

Barry's pose is hilarious.

[tv echo]

If I think of Diggle and Felicity as part of Oliver's 'family' (like Thea), then I have an easier time accepting that they will both forgive Oliver - even Diggle eventually, although issues may crop up later.  

 

If S4's theme is indeed going to be family, maybe there will a comparison or conflict between biological family members and created family members, with distrust issues percolating throughout the season.

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[GirlvsTV]

Is it weird that seeing these characters actually SMILING made me tear up a little?

[Password]

Is it weird that seeing these characters actually SMILING made me tear up a little?

I feel emotionally manipulated.

[Chaser]

Barry looks like such a dorky peeping Tom in this picture: 

 

I took a drink of water just as I popped back over and saw the pic again. I almost spit it out.

 

"Whatcha during little kiddies? Want some candy?"