Spoiler Discussion Thread

[AyChihuahua]

 

Yeah the deception of Lance is what I disliked big time I get it wasn't the right time but that is on LAUREL not the others

She lied to Quentin's face about knowing where the Canary is, and actually invented the voice modifier with Sara's voice.  If it had been the only possible way to get vital info, it would be different, but literally all she had to do was call him AS HERSELF.  

 

Also, I don't care if she sleeps with Ray after she finds out Oliver's alive.  I mean, eww, but what has bothered me is her not seemingly caring longer than a few days that Oliver's dead.  Once she knows he's not dead, that issue disappears.

[KirkB]

I can deal with Laurel being the Canary because that was always their intent and I knew it was going to happen whether I liked it or not (for the record, I don't). I can look past Malcolm drugging Thea, as obscene as it is, because he is a psychopathic villain and that's what bad guys do. But I can't just sit back and take Laurel lying to her father, and what's more somehow convincing Team Arrow to actively help her manipulate Quentin. Even if I liked Laurel that would negatively affect my opinion of her and make it harder for me to accept or care about her taking center stage. At this rate I figure she's never going to tell him, he's going to find out in some other way and it's going to break his heart (hopefully not literally). As far as I'm concerned, Laurel is irredeemable. 

[Carrie Ann]

I don't like Felicity less for anything that's happening involving Oliver, but I do like Olicity less right now. Aside from the crossovers, I haven't liked anything about Olicity this season since the date blew up. I found that little bomb to be an unconvincing reason for Oliver to completely reverse himself, and ever since, it's just been a tough slog for me.

 

I'm disappointed in the writing (or the lack of writing) for Felicity's side of the non-relationship, and I'm disappointed in the handling of Raylicity. In many ways, 312 is starting to sound like a make-or-break for me in terms of the rest of the season for Olicity. If the emotions and reasons for the Angry Scene of Anger feel real and right to me, then I can handle the crap that comes after. I can handle her getting with Ray, and I can handle another half a season of Oliver and Felicity being at odds. I'm not going to enjoy it, but good angst is its own kind of joy.

 

But if the emotions in the Angry Scene of Anger don't feel right? If they feel off to me in the way so many things have this season? Then that's probably a ship-killer for me, because all the crap that comes after will just feel wrong, and it's so hard to come back from that and recapture all the things that made the ship appealing in the first place.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[jay741982]

She lied to Quentin's face about knowing where the Canary is, and actually invented the voice modifier with Sara's voice.  If it had been the only possible way to get vital info, it would be different, but literally all she had to do was call him AS HERSELF.  

 

Also, I don't care if she sleeps with Ray after she finds out Oliver's alive.  I mean, eww, but what has bothered me is her not seemingly caring longer than a few days that Oliver's dead.  Once she knows he's not dead, that issue disappears.

Don't get me wrong I know she could have got the info herself UGH that scene definitely made me cringe and not happy at all

[apinknightmare]

Also, I don't care if she sleeps with Ray after she finds out Oliver's alive.  I mean, eww, but what has bothered me is her not seemingly caring longer than a few days that Oliver's dead.  Once she knows he's not dead, that issue disappears.

 

It's funny to me how differently people interpret things, because I didn't get her not caring at all. She seemed pretty despondent to me for a good part of the last ep. As we've all touched upon, there was that moment with Ray, but it seemed to me that it more pushed her in the direction of getting back to the mission than it brought her closer to him. I think the smile was supposed to signify some kind of epiphany, since she went to Laurel right after and told her to fight (ugh) and then they both returned to the foundry.

 

Not trying to talk you out of your opinion at all, it's just fascinating to me how so many people seem to have taken different things from that ep as far as her feelings for Oliver and the interactions with Ray are concerned. 

[jay741982]

I don't like Felicity less for anything that's happening involving Oliver, but I do like Olicity less right now. Aside from the crossovers, I haven't liked anything about Olicity this season since the date blew up. I found that little bomb to be an unconvincing reason for Oliver to completely reverse himself, and ever since, it's just been a tough slog for me.

 

I'm disappointed in the writing (or the lack of writing) for Felicity's side of the non-relationship, and I'm disappointed in the handling of Raylicity. In many ways, 312 is starting to sound like a make-or-break for me in terms of the rest of the season for Olicity. If the emotions and reasons for the Angry Scene of Anger feel real and right to me, then I can handle the crap that comes after. I can handle her getting with Ray, and I can handle another half a season of Oliver and Felicity being at odds. I'm not going to enjoy it, but good angst is its own kind of joy.

 

But if the emotions in the Angry Scene of Anger don't feel right? If they feel off to me in the way so many things have this season? Then that's probably a ship-killer for me, because all the crap that comes after will just feel wrong, and it's so hard to come back from that and recapture all the things that made the ship appealing in the first place.

See that's the thing its hard telling if MG is stupid enough to want to kill a very popular ship that gets buzz from Media and has been a beautiful relationship so far or if he doesn't get it that we don't want too much angst or OOC moments. I love Olicity and it is sad to hear that some people are Turing against it. I just wish they wouldve hooked up and the show had moved on and not had angst drag down the season along with Sara's death. I also get though that you can't please everybody

[apinknightmare]

See that's the thing its hard telling if MG is stupid enough to want to kill a very popular ship that gets buzz from Media and has been a beautiful relationship so far or if he doesn't get it that we don't want too much angst or OOC moments. I love Olicity and it is sad to hear that some people are Turing against it. I just wish they wouldve hooked up and the show had moved on and not had angst drag down the season along with Sara's death. I also get though that you can't please everybody

 

Even if MG wanted to kill Olicity, I imagine the higher ups at the parent companies would put their foot down on that if for no other reason than it generates a TON of buzz. I don't think they're purposely killing anything; I just think they're incompetent storytellers. 

[statsgirl]

Why is she getting Crucifed for that? You can be miserable about a loved one and find misguided comfort in an another it does happen!! Does not mean she doesn't love Oliver.

I think it's too late for the 'comfort for a loved one's death' sex.  Maybe immediately after she found out Oliver was dead (and I am so thankful we didn't get that), maybe when she's in a state of shock at the loss, but it's been two or more weeks now and she seems to be functioning just fine both at work and in the Arrow cave.  So if she had sex with Ray at this point, it would be because she wanted to have sex with him.

 

 

If Laurel was called horrible and a slot and the worst person for sleeping with Oliver after Tommy broke up with her then I assume felicity would be called names if she slept with Ray.

I agree she will be called names, it's already starting.

 

But I disagree that Laurel was called horrible because she slept with Oliver after Tommy broke up with her.  She cried all night when he did, she went to Oliver for advice on how to get him back and when Oliver told her to fight for him, she went to Tommy to do so.  Oliver himself went to Tommy and told her to get back together with Laurel. But the first chance they got, Laurel and Oliver slept together in spite of all her protestations that she loved Tommy and his that Tommy was his best friend. And for that, both Oliver and Laurel were horrible imo.

 

She lied to Quentin's face about knowing where the Canary is, and actually invented the voice modifier with Sara's voice.  If it had been the only possible way to get vital info, it would be different, but literally all she had to do was call him AS HERSELF.  

 

Also, I don't care if she sleeps with Ray after she finds out Oliver's alive.  I mean, eww, but what has bothered me is her not seemingly caring longer than a few days that Oliver's dead.  Once she knows he's not dead, that issue disappears.

I think both Felicity and Diggle are being written OOC to make LaurelBC and Ray happen.  The Diggle of s1 would never have stayed behind and let a newbie almost get killed in the field; the Felicity of s1 and 2 would never have condoned Laurel lying to Quentin much less helped her do it.  (And again, why didn't Felicity just ask him for the information herself like she's always done before?)

 

Because they are so popular, MG may be thinking that Felicity and Diggle are on stone solid ground. But it's not true, in TV, everyone is on quicksand.

 

What I don't understand is why no one is saying "Look guys, we want an Atom spin-off here.  Having Ray break up the one of the most popular ships on TV is not going to get us an audience."

[AyChihuahua]

 

It's funny to me how differently people interpret things, because I didn't get her not caring at all. She seemed pretty despondent to me for a good part of the last ep. As we've all touched upon, there was that moment with Ray, but it seemed to me that it more pushed her in the direction of getting back to the mission than it brought her closer to him. I think the smile was supposed to signify some kind of epiphany, since she went to Laurel right after and told her to fight (ugh) and then they both returned to the foundry.

Oh, I haven't watched these episodes, and won't.  I like myself and see no reason to inflict punishment on myself.  I am relying on the posters at this site to keep me informed.

[Carrie Ann]

See that's the thing its hard telling if MG is stupid enough to want to kill a very popular ship that gets buzz from Media and has been a beautiful relationship so far or if he doesn't get it that we don't want too much angst or OOC moments.

 

Oh, I don't think for a minute that MG wants to kill Olicity. I think he's pretty committed to it, no matter what he says on social media. But I also think his instincts are just completely off for these characters and maybe just human beings in general. They write to plot and miff these huge character beats. They miss the emotions altogether sometimes, because they don't give any time for moments to land or breathe. So Oliver's death, emotionally, has been a huge miss for me. None of the characters has mourned to the level I would have expected, and what that does is weaken viewers' perception of the depths of their relationships. I thought they were all more important to each other than a few days of stiff upper lips and a tear or two. And yes, I can fill in the blanks and imagine them crying at home. But all I've been doing this season is filling in blanks and fanwanking reasons for choices that don't jibe for me, and you can only do so much of that before the ratio of what is actually happening on the show vs. what you're mentally fixing or filling in for them hits the tipping point. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[statsgirl]

A scene I never want to see

 

hokeypokey1998 asked:
Do you think Oliver will have a talk with Ray about Felicity?

MG: Oh, I’m pretty sure…

On the other hand

skcolicity asked:
I want to make you a gifset. Tell me 1) fave olicity moment in season 1, 2) fave olicity moment in season 2, 3) fave olicity in season 3 (that have aired so far)

MG: 1) the elevator shaft scene in 1x22

2) the mansion scene in 2x23

3) 3x12

The elevator scene was very cute.  (I just have to block from my memory that Oliver went sex Laurel up right after.)

He probably loved the scene in the mansion because it drove the audience crazy.

I know he's really been pushing the 3x12 scene, saying it's a '10'. The goodbye in 3x09 was good although not as good as he promoted (he said it was a '9' because there was no sex).  I'm just trying to wrap my mind around how could it be as horrible as I imagine it's going to be, and he still thinks it's a '10'.

[AyChihuahua]

 

So Oliver's death, emotionally, has been a huge miss for me. None of the characters has mourned to the level I would have expected, and what that does is weaken viewers' perception of the depths of their relationships. I thought they were all more important to each other than a few days of stiff upper lips and a tear or two.

EXACTLY!  I mean, compared to other deaths on shows I've loved, they're so casual about him dying.  When Buffy died (S5, not S1, she was barely dead in S1), it changed everything.  Her friends were devastated and Willow turned to some pretty dark magic to get her back.  Lilly Kane's murder completely devastated Veronica Mars for years and effectively turned her into a different person.  When Sam Winchester died (the first time, now the Winchesters dying is basically a joke), Dean was utterly broken and sold his soul to the devil!  Walter Bishop was so destroyed by his son's death he broke two universes.  Heck, when Tommy died Oliver ran back to Lian Yu for months, when his mother was murdered he decided to give himself to Slade, effectively committing suicide.  But Oliver dies and his closest friends seem to be mildly bummed, and when he miraculously returns, apparently they just want to make sure he knows his place.

Edited February 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[annaharris]

Even if MG wanted to kill Olicity, I imagine the higher ups at the parent companies would put their foot down on that if for no other reason than it generates a TON of buzz. I don't think they're purposely killing anything; I just think they're incompetent storytellers. 

I second this. I laughed out loud when I read it. They are incompetent storytellers. Their writing this season has been incredibly sloppy, it's unbelievable. It's like they're not even trying to surprise us. Who didn't call that Thea killed Sara? Yeah, that she was drugged was a "surprise," but not the good kind. That Oliver would "die" and come back? There was nothing surprising about how that unfolded. The latest sneak peek has Felicity not noticing her computers have been hacked? Seriously?

I think they're especially incompetent at writing a good love story. They write a backstory for Laurel and Oliver that is so toxic, I can't believe they expected people to want those two together. Now, they're writing the most ridiculous mess for Olicity. I get that it's jumping through the hoops, in a way, with keeping these two apart, and I could deal with that if I liked Felicity's love interest. But I can't stand Ray (I like Brandon Routh, but Ray Palmer is all kinds of creepy). Funny that the guys who gave us Barry Allen thought they were writing a charming Ray Palmer...it's actually really disturbing what they consider "charming." If a guy bought me a dress for a work function, I'd be resigning so fast...and filing for sexual harassment. I can't wait until Ray Palmer is off this show. It's one thing to give Olicity a boatload of angst--I can handle that. Just please don't ask me to sit through any more "charming" Ray Palmer. 

[Orion]

I think both Felicity and Diggle are being written OOC to make LaurelBC and Ray happen.  The Diggle of s1 would never have stayed behind and let a newbie almost get killed in the field; the Felicity of s1 and 2 would never have condoned Laurel lying to Quentin much less helped her do it.  (And again, why didn't Felicity just ask him for the information herself like she's always done before?)

 

Because they are so popular, MG may be thinking that Felicity and Diggle are on stone solid ground. But it's not true, in TV, everyone is on quicksand.

 

What I don't understand is why no one is saying "Look guys, we want an Atom spin-off here.  Having Ray break up the one of the most popular ships on TV is not going to get us an audience."

 

The only answer that makes sense to me about why the show would include Felicity in this idiotic disgusting storyline is because they knew fans were getting pissed about it before they wrote this episode. They knew that everyone wasn't seeing poor tortured Laurel (AK made the comment that they were torturing Laurel with this storyline) the audience was empathizing with Quentin instead of Laurel. But they also weren't willing to let it go. They wanted Laurel to have to dress up as Sara to fool the villains (because even in their minds their was no logical way for them to get from a bad self involved attorney to a hero) and they figured Quentin would see the masked blonde around the city and instead of stopping and thinking about the cruelty that inflicted on a loved character they thought it was another way to make the audience feel sorry for Laurel. When it backfired in episode 2 they didn't want to change so they did their standard answer to all questionable things and threw Felicity at it.  Once again assuming if Felicity approved than the audience would back off or at the very least she would share the blame with Laurel. And provide that character cover.

 

From my point of view, I don't blame Felicity because one advantage to having good characterization of her for two years is I will never believe that is how that character would have behaved. I simply don't believe it.  In the face of that my anger has only grown towards Laurel. Because while I believe that Felicity would have never, I believe whole heartedly that Laurel would. That's in character for her. She's selfish and doesn't consider anyone else's feelings. So all my rage over that story goes back to her. And I'm doubly angry that they used a character I love to try to sell it.

 

The only OOC character traits I see associated with Ray are Felicity not calling him out on pinging her cell phone the second time. Most of the other Ray stuff doesn't bother me. But the amount of OOC stuff associated with having to prop up and try to humanize Laure I could fill up this page with just from this season everyone has been a victim of it, Diggle, Felicity, Oliver, Quentin. Their grand plan to rehab Laurel is going the other way with me. I didn't like her after season two but I still watched all her scenes, not with interest but with acceptance, now it's over - she's irredeemable.  

[AyChihuahua]

 

From my point of view, I don't blame Felicity because one advantage to having good characterization of her for two years is I will never believe that is how that character would have behaved. I simply don't believe it.

But she did!  She did do it.  She literally built the tech that allowed Laurel to do it.  I mean, it's not as if there is a real Felicity Smoak in a different universe behaving differently (and probably horrified by this universe's fictional version of her).  There's nothing except what is on the screen, and what is on the screen is that she did this awful thing, and apparently didn't even think it was a bad thing to do (and is also now kind of stupid, since she could have just called him herself).  

[apinknightmare]

See, my interpretation of the Laurel as Sara mess is this:

 

MG said on Tumblr that there's going to be comeuppance from Quentin when he learns he's been lied to, and that to me suggests that he's going to be angry as fuck (as he should be, but I know some people here thought he might be instantly forgiving - doesn't seem like it'll be that way). Did they need more people in on the lie to make him finding out about it worse? Maybe. But they definitely needed Laurel to take this thing about a thousand miles past decent to make the blow even worse. How could she do that? By dressing up as Sara, but Quentin isn't THAT stupid. She needed to sound like Sara, too. Who's the only person on the show that we know could make Laurel sound like Sara to completely pull off the ruse thus making this the shittiest thing ever? Felicity. I also think this plays into Laurel's dilemma and her contacting Nyssa for help that will I'm sure eventually lead to her fucking off to train with a bunch of assassins once Quentin disowns her ass. I wonder if Laurel will admit that Dinah knew too so the man can be completely isolated in his grief, gah. 

 

I just wish there had been an unavoidable reasoning for the voice thing. I do appreciate that Felicity did look upset at what she had done while Laurel was talking into the microphone (as did Laurel, but I don't pity her because the only reason she has to lie now is because she lied earlier like the awful person she is). Diggle's the one of the three who didn't look put out by it, but the man has seen some shit, so I suppose this is probably low-level shocking to him. Now that he has a daughter though...ugh.

But she did!  She did do it.  She literally built the tech that allowed Laurel to do it.  I mean, it's not as if there is a real Felicity Smoak in a different universe behaving differently (and probably horrified by this universe's fictional version of her).  There's nothing except what is on the screen, and what is on the screen is that she did this awful thing, and apparently didn't even think it was a bad thing to do (and is also now kind of stupid, since she could have just called him herself).  

 

Seems to me like she did think it was a bad thing to do - she was broken up as she was doing it, it's just the story reason for it was stupid. It's not like she was sitting there cackling with glee that she'd come up with this tech. So, what's on the screen is that she felt as if she had to do this horrible thing, and felt horrible as she was doing it. If we're going with the what's on the screen being the only thing that matters approach, doesn't that go both ways? Shouldn't we be taking into account that Felicity, at this point in time, felt like this was the correct course of action to get the information that she needed? She obviously didn't feel like she could call Quentin to get it, even though we feel like she could.

Edited February 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

 

She obviously didn't feel like she could call Quentin to get it, even though we feel like she could.

Why?  He knows she works with the Arrow, because he's called her several times to get to the Arrow.  He knows the Arrow works with at least the red arrow guy and Sara.  He worked with her directly to disarm the earthquake machine.  Why would she think she couldn't call him as herself?

 

 

[kismet]

We all mistakes... Im gonna chock it up to Felicity & Diggle feeling pressure to get Brick and feeling like they had not other options. Its bullshit, but its the only in character explanation for those 2 I can give. That the grief they are feeling for Oliver distracted them from the harsh reality of what they were doing. I still do not forgive them for it, but I can't hate them forever, it was a mistake. I will need time to process it, also they need to show a little remorse for their role. Plz writers put a scene in next week or somewhere soon that 1 of them says, hey I think we crossed the line, feel guilty. Take that damn modulator away from Laurel so it never happens again. I also don't believe F or D ever thought she would use it in person, which is where things got really shady.

 

There is no excuse for Laurel, after closeness that her & her father have obtained over the years, she never should have impersonated her sister. I cannot not forgive her for that decision, because I think it was not a decision based on lack of focus, but rather a selfish calculated move to protect her. I don't know what she can do to atone for that betrayal to her father. But people are right in assuming this will lead her down the path to Nyssa. So I guess score another for plot. The former DA did warn Laurel, once you let the darkness in, it doesn't go away. I just wonder how dark they plan on taking Laurel...

Edited February 1, 2015 by kismet

[Orion]

But she did!  She did do it.  She literally built the tech that allowed Laurel to do it.  I mean, it's not as if there is a real Felicity Smoak in a different universe behaving differently (and probably horrified by this universe's fictional version of her).  There's nothing except what is on the screen, and what is on the screen is that she did this awful thing, and apparently didn't even think it was a bad thing to do (and is also now kind of stupid, since she could have just called him herself).  

 

 

Of course she did it on screen and it is therefore canon. However, the level of suspension of belief that I need to have to believe that that character would have done that is beyond what I'm able to have. So yes, she did it. I choose to ignore the hell out of it. And point my finger harder at Laurel for being the cause of this mess. But that's my choice and I understand others that choose not to follow it.

[annaharris]

Why?  He knows she works with the Arrow, because he's called her several times to get to the Arrow.  He knows the Arrow works with at least the red arrow guy and Sara.  He worked with her directly to disarm the earthquake machine.  Why would she think she couldn't call him as herself?

Because Laurel probably asked her to. The problem with Arrow is it sometimes moves too fast to give us details so that characterization goes out the window to force a plot point in. You're right--we can only know what's shown on screen. But here's what we do know: Quentin thinks Sara is back in town. Laurel wants him to continue to believe Sara is alive. If Felicity called Quentin as herself, it begs the question: why isn't Sara calling him herself? Why would Felicity be the one doing it? Who would have the most to lose by Felicity being the one to call Quentin and have him wonder why his own daughter, who is working with the Red Arrow, is NOT calling him? The answer is Laurel. So it isn't farfetched for Laurel to ask Felicity to do it, and that Felicity and the rest of the team were focused on the mission and ethics, clearly, wasn't at the forefront of their thinking.

At the beginning of the season, Oliver tells Laurel to tell her dad. When Stephen Amell was asked about it, he said Oliver doesn't agree with Laurel's reasons, but it isn't his place to say anything. While I am not a fan of this storyline (I detest it), it seems the perspective of the writers is just that: the characters all go along with Laurel's decision. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by annaharris

[statsgirl]

From my point of view, I don't blame Felicity because one advantage to having good characterization of her for two years is I will never believe that is how that character would have behaved. I simply don't believe it.  In the face of that my anger has only grown towards Laurel. Because while I believe that Felicity would have never, I believe whole heartedly that Laurel would. That's in character for her. She's selfish and doesn't consider anyone else's feelings. So all my rage over that story goes back to her. And I'm doubly angry that they used a character I love to try to sell it.

Orion, I love your whole post. But especially this part because I never quite thought of it that way before.

 

The show has spent 2 1/2 building up these characters.  We know that Oliver can be douchey and controlling but he has a good heart and he's determined to do right by his father and by his city.  Diggle sees himself as a protector and he's the one responsible for the people around him; he even said last episode that he still saw himself as Oliver's bodyguard and failed.   Thea is gutsy but is still rebelling and that makes her bitchy at times.   Quentin Lance is a man of few world but deep beliefs which take a lot to change, and love for his family.  If Ray suddenly started becoming the Boundary King, that would be out of character for him.

 

"Out of character" means just that, the action is out of the character that the show has established the person to be. So when Diggle tells Laurel she's not a good enough fighter but then stays behind and lets Laurel and Roy go off on their own, that's out of character for him.  When Felicity helps Laurel lie to her father, that's out of character for her. Because in order for there to be an "out", there must first be an "in".

 

I think at this point, so soon after Oliver's death, for Felicity to go right into a romantic relationship with Ray just because he said he cared about her (words similar to Oliver's), it would be out of character for her.  I don't mind the phone ping-ing because Felicity tends to take people at face value. At least, she has so far.

 

Laurel spend 2 seasons barely noticing Diggle's and Felicity's existence, even inviting only Oliver to the end of the Anti-vigilante task squad and not them. This sudden BFF with Diggle and knowing about his brother, and the scenes with Felicity, seem out of character to me, although I can see why she likes Roy, he's  young, can be intimidated (she thinks) and has a cool suit like her.

[Carrie Ann]

I think I'd feel better about F & D's involvement in the Sara ruse--and hopeful about any future repercussions surrounding it--if I hadn't read MG's comments on Tumblr. Saying "Honestly, I’m a little surprised that people are so incensed about Laurel faking being Canary in front of Lance.  Underestimated that reaction for sure" is bad enough, but then remembering his response during the hiatus to the question about Laurel's voice modulator: "Oh, you're going to love it...." just makes it clear that he didn't honestly see anything wrong with it. In the show's eyes, Laurel is the real victim here. And I saw Felicity's emotional response as just that--emotional because she was sad for Quentin. Not because she felt like they'd done something wrong here--because again, the writers don't believe they did anything wrong--but because you know, it will be sad when he learns his daughter is dead.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[AyChihuahua]

 

Because Laurel probably asked her to. The problem with Arrow is it sometimes moves too fast to give us details so that characterization goes out the window to force a plot point in. You're right--we can only know what's shown on screen. But here's what we do know: Quentin thinks Sara is back in town. Laurel wants him to continue to believe Sara is alive. If Felicity called Quentin as herself, it begs the question: why isn't Sara calling him herself? Why would Felicity be the one doing it? Who would have the most to lose by Felicity being the one to call Quentin and have him wonder why his own daughter, who is working with the Red Arrow, is NOT calling him? The answer is Laurel. So it isn't farfetched for Laurel to ask Felicity to do it, and that Felicity and the rest of the team were focused on the mission and ethics, clearly, wasn't at the forefront of their thinking.

Okay, so the idea is that the phone call wasn't primarily to get the info, but was really primarily to keep up the (hateful, horrible) ruse?  I guess I can kind of work with that.

[jay741982]

I think it's too late for the 'comfort for a loved one's death' sex.  Maybe immediately after she found out Oliver was dead (and I am so thankful we didn't get that), maybe when she's in a state of shock at the loss, but it's been two or more weeks now and she seems to be functioning just fine both at work and in the Arrow cave.  So if she had sex with Ray at this point, it would be because she wanted to have sex with him.

 

I agree she will be called names, it's already starting.

 

But I disagree that Laurel was called horrible because she slept with Oliver after Tommy broke up with her.  She cried all night when he did, she went to Oliver for advice on how to get him back and when Oliver told her to fight for him, she went to Tommy to do so.  Oliver himself went to Tommy and told her to get back together with Laurel. But the first chance they got, Laurel and Oliver slept together in spite of all her protestations that she loved Tommy and his that Tommy was his best friend. And for that, both Oliver and Laurel were horrible imo.

 

I think both Felicity and Diggle are being written OOC to make LaurelBC and Ray happen.  The Diggle of s1 would never have stayed behind and let a newbie almost get killed in the field; the Felicity of s1 and 2 would never have condoned Laurel lying to Quentin much less helped her do it.  (And again, why didn't Felicity just ask him for the information herself like she's always done before?)

 

Because they are so popular, MG may be thinking that Felicity and Diggle are on stone solid ground. But it's not true, in TV, everyone is on quicksand.

 

What I don't understand is why no one is saying "Look guys, we want an Atom spin-off here.  Having Ray break up the one of the most popular ships on TV is not going to get us an audience."

First off that's horrible if Felicity is being called names when her and Oliver aren't together by HIS CHOICE. He has jerked her around and said I love you right before he goes off and "Dies". About that Atom spin-off I don't think Ray is gonna be the one she chooses and it's possible she does not sleep with him. Hell both him and Oliver just might be both being wooing her since we have to have a dreaded triangle. MG probably don't realize how rabid some fans can be lol

[TanyaKay]

See, my interpretation of the Laurel as Sara mess is this:

MG said on Tumblr that there's going to be comeuppance from Quentin when he learns he's been lied to, and that to me suggests that he's going to be angry as fuck (as he should be, but I know some people here thought he might be instantly forgiving - doesn't seem like it'll be that way). Did they need more people in on the lie to make him finding out about it worse? Maybe. But they definitely needed Laurel to take this thing about a thousand miles past decent to make the blow even worse. How could she do that? By dressing up as Sara, but Quentin isn't THAT stupid. She needed to sound like Sara, too. Who's the only person on the show that we know could make Laurel sound like Sara to completely pull off the ruse thus making this the shittiest thing ever? Felicity. I also think this plays into Laurel's dilemma and her contacting Nyssa for help that will I'm sure eventually lead to her fucking off to train with a bunch of assassins once Quentin disowns her ass. I wonder if Laurel will admit that Dinah knew too so the man can be completely isolated in his grief, gah.

I think they included Team Arrow in the lie so that Quentin can be angry with Arrow and Felicity (Poor Arrow was battling for his life when this travesty of a storyline was happening). Laurel like always will not pay for her lie. She can get away with blackmailing,lying cheating and what not. I think that is her super power.

Laurel makes me not want to have children, I mean what's the point, first they will be ungrateful little shits and then they will lie to your face!

[HighHopes]

I think I'd feel better about F & D's involvement in the Sara ruse--and hopeful about any future repercussions surrounding it--if I hadn't read MG's comments on both Tumblr and Twitter. Saying "Honestly, I’m a little surprised that people are so incensed about Laurel faking being Canary in front of Lance.  Underestimated that reaction for sure" is bad enough, but then remembering his tweet response during the hiatus to the question about Laurel's voice modulator: "You're going to love it!" just makes it clear that he didn't honestly see anything wrong with it. I

 

I think Laurel's voice modulator and the "you'll love it" comment are different than the comment about them using Sara's voice. In her scenes when she's saving the alderman Laurel's voice sounds distorted... like she has a permanent frog in her throat or something. It's off and clearly not her Katie Cassidy's voice (probably so it's easier to just use the stunt woman for scenes when Laurel has to talk...)

 

How they could have written and shot that scene (including getting Caity Lotz for the voice work) without someone going "Wait. This is wrong" shocks me. 

[AyChihuahua]

Thank you all for a very interesting discussion.  I would say I'm off to bed, but in fact, since I've started jogging and taking a once/week tae bo class, I'm really off to guard the streets against evildoers.  I'm confident I'll be a great success.  

[Chaser]

I want to wrap Team Arrow in bubble wrap.

 

I'm annoyed with the behavior of Felicity and Diggle but I'm not directing it at them, canon or not. I've loved these characters for 2.5 seasons; they have earned my loyalty. 

 

Laurel hasn't earned anything. I look/read about everything that is going on with Arrow and I think this is all happening because they want Laurel to work so bad they are willing to throw the other character under the bus. 

 

I'm stubborn and that pisses me off so I dig my heels in with my favorites. 

[Princess Vanellope]

Thank you all for a very interesting discussion. I would say I'm off to bed, but in fact, since I've started jogging and taking a once/week tae bo class, I'm really off to guard the streets against evildoers. I'm confident I'll be a great success.

Lmaooooo!!! Don't forget your five million buckles and your black lipstick! ;)

[Chaser]

MG ranked the 3x12 scene a 10. So does that mean its like a 6?

 

 

…..Or does this heartbreaking scene include sex?

Edited February 1, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Genki]

MG ranked the 3x12 scene a 10. So does that mean its like a 6?

 

 

…..Or does this heartbreaking scene include sex?

 

Well last time he quoted a 9 the reason it wasn't a 10 was "no sex"....

[HighHopes]

...And he did say "sexy times are coming". I'm not sure if the 1-10 scale is the same scale for heartbreaking scenes as it is just scenes in general? But he did say he would have to get off twitter after the episode aired. And I imagine Twitter after an Olicity sex scene would be insane.

 

And it makes me think of Amell wasn't completely throwing us off with his "Felicity tells Oliver to leave her alone romantically" in that we would be getting the exact opposite of that. 

 

I'm torn. I want this because what shipper doesn't? And on the other hand, I think it's a bit too soon still? 

[Genki]

I wouldn't be surprised if it went hug -> sex -> then mad as hell.

 

Also having Felicity sleep with Oliver before getting into a relationship with Ray, could potentially appease a lot of Olicity fans. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by Genki

[jay741982]

What if it was Olicity sex? Twitter WOULD go insane but he thinks we'll hate him and I don't think Olicity sex would result in MAD AS HELL unless for some reason something happens afterward that makes it heartbreaking? UGH I want Olicity Happy dammit lol

[HighHopes]

Could it be that the Olicity sex gets interrupted, hence "a third person comes in between them" meaning they stop the sex from happening? We would be mad at Marc for that and Twitter would go insane. Do we know if Felicity ends the episode "mad as hell" or if that's just one of her emotions in 3x12?

 

Maybe Felicity or Oliver decide that after that they need to cool it, that their emotions are too high. Annnnd I just thought of something else. 

 

They will be fooling Malcolm this time. They want Malcolm for whatever reason to think that Oliver is on the outs with the team, so he and Felicity "end things" for the camera like Oliver confessed his love for her on camera. This would be heartbreaking too?

 

Felicity is supposed to be "mad as hell" and Oliver is supposed to have an "oops" reaction. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by HighHopes

[jay741982]

I wouldn't be surprised if it went hug -> sex -> then mad as hell.

 

Also having Felicity sleep with Oliver before getting into a relationship with Ray, could potentially appease a lot of Olicity fans.

Yes it could but we would wonder why they can't continue a relationship? It was said Oliver would be tired at the end of the Episode. Sexytimes can wear a person out lol

Could it be that the Olicity sex gets interrupted, hence "a third person comes in between them" meaning they stop the sex from happening? We would be mad at Marc for that and Twitter would go insane. Do we know if Felicity ends the episode "mad as hell" or if that's just one of her emotions in 3x12?

Ooh that's a good scenario! Felicity could be "Mad as Hell" cause it was interrupted.

[Chaser]

Personally, I think it's too soon. I would prefer they don't go there until they stay there. But I could see how that would make a lot of fans mad. They jump into something right away and then something Oliver does pisses off Felicity so bad she tells him to leave her alone.

[jay741982]

I believe he said Mad as Hell is how Felicity ends the ep

Personally, I think it's too soon. I would prefer they don't go there until they stay there. But I could see how that would make a lot of fans mad. They jump into something right away and then something Oliver does pisses off Felicity so bad she tells him to leave her alone.

Cue Oliver deciding to align with Malcolm. Felicity would be Mad as Hell about that

[jay741982]

OR he tells her afterward(Not immediately afterward) that he STILL has to be just Arrow to defeat Malcolm/Ra's

[Carrie Ann]

For the record: MG also said Olicity people would be mad at him for quite awhile, and I don't think even he is dumb enough to think our overwhelming reaction wouldn't be elation if they finally did it, no matter what happened next. So, I'm in the "no sexytimes" camp, but it would be sweet.

 

I think Laurel's voice modulator and the "you'll love it" comment are different than the comment about them using Sara's voice. In her scenes when she's saving the alderman Laurel's voice sounds distorted... like she has a permanent frog in her throat or something. It's off and clearly not her Katie Cassidy's voice (probably so it's easier to just use the stunt woman for scenes when Laurel has to talk...)

 

No, I heard that modulator too, but the tone of his post is clearly a tease. Her modulator was pretty standard (actually a little lower than Sara's IIRC and sounded a little ridiculous), not much to love about it. In the post, I'm pretty confident he was talking about the Sara voice. I swear someone here called it as soon as this post came up.

[jay741982]

Could it be that the Olicity sex gets interrupted, hence "a third person comes in between them" meaning they stop the sex from happening? We would be mad at Marc for that and Twitter would go insane. Do we know if Felicity ends the episode "mad as hell" or if that's just one of her emotions in 3x12?

 

Maybe Felicity or Oliver decide that after that they need to cool it, that their emotions are too high. Annnnd I just thought of something else. 

 

They will be fooling Malcolm this time. They want Malcolm for whatever reason to think that Oliver is on the outs with the team, so he and Felicity "end things" for the camera like Oliver confessed his love for her on camera. This would be heartbreaking too?

 

Felicity is supposed to be "mad as hell" and Oliver is supposed to have an "oops" reaction.

Ooh that could be really good!

[lemotomato]

MG ranked the 3x12 scene a 10. So does that mean its like a 6?

…..Or does this heartbreaking scene include sex?

I thought he ranked it as a 10 on the heartbreak scale?

[Chiny11]

Wow...if Olicity have sex, Twitter will implode. Fans will go crazy. Hahahahaha

 

But seeing all your posts about this...it sounds highly highly highly probable. :)

[HighHopes]

I mean it's fun to talk about and speculate? But I doubt it's a sex scene. It's supposed to be heartbreaking and we are supposed to be mad at MG for a while. I'm sure they are saving that scene for May Sweeps. 

[Soulfire]

I would love an Olicity love scene -- however, I doubt one will take place in 3x12. When Guggentroll was asked to rate the Olicity scene in 3x09 he was asked to rate how good it was  -- not heartbreaking.

 

 

So I think we're in for heartbreaking and not sexytimes times in 3x12.

 

ETA: Sorry for the LQ screencap but damn I need sleep.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Soulfire

[lemotomato]

Yeah, the exact (poorly phrased, IMO) question was:

[jay741982]

Man this episode needs to get here and air already. The speculation is exhausting. I'm hoping MG is overselling. the worst scenario is her looking bitchy and fucking Palmer

Edited February 1, 2015 by jay741982

[Danny Franks]

So if Felicity basically got over Oliver's death in a week, does that not just highlight even more starkly that this storyline was forced into the show just to try and make Laurel and Ray happen? It was never about Felicity or Diggle and their emotional connection to Oliver Queen. It was never even about Oliver Queen himself. It seems pretty egregious and such terrible writing, that they resort to this stuff. But I do find it morbidly amusing that everyone needs to die to further Laurel's story. Tommy, Sara and now even Oliver himself. Not to mention Quentin, whose heart will apparently burst from his chest and bounce around on the floor the second he finds out Sara is dead. 

 

It's also morbidly amusing that these clowns have so lost sight of their priorities that they're actually risking the popularity of their breakout character, the one who has so far been above any real criticism, on trying to make these other two, far less popular, characters work. If Felicity sleeps with Ray, she will get hate. No doubt about it. How much hate? Depends on how stupid and hypocritical the writing makes her look, I guess. But Guggenheim will just say he was surprised by the reaction, and carry on as usual. I think he really does believe that any publicity is good publicity.

[jay741982]

Ugh we ain't getting a declaration of love in 312 from Felicity it sounds like Fellow Oliciters GRRRR. Fuck MG all he does is live to tick people off. It's not funny Douchebag

[Password]

When he says things like

Asked to clear up the third party obstacle that gets in the way of Olicity (he said it wasn't Ray but AK said Felicity had to choose between Ray and Oliver) because people are losing it, MG says: "If you read this Tumblr and my Twitter, you know I love when people are losing it. Our master plan is working perfectly…"

It really ticks me off. Not just in relation to Olicity, but the overall storyline. Because you know he thinks we enjoy the fact that Laurel is lying to Quentin, and that we'll be so happy when he finds out because he'll be rightly ticked off. I don't care if he's ticked off. I care that Laurel is being a horrible person and Digglicity are being accomplices. Crap like this makes me want to rage quit.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Limbo