Spoiler Discussion Thread

[statsgirl]

I think it's easier to move a character from a 'neutral/annoyed with' position to 'like' than to move someone who is hated. Season 2 did Laurel no favors; while her fans say she was an addict and shouldn't be blamed for what she did, throwing the wine glass when she found out Sara was alive is a tough image to forget.

 

SA tends to give interviews based on what has been aired so far, so he wouldn't "know" what Felicity says in 3x12.

In that TVLine interview, I found SA's reasoning for not telling Thea suspicious. Oliver can be a little smug sometimes, but I don't think he was by any means convinced he was going to win in this duel, unless our speculation is right and the fix was in before the fight.

It made sense to me because Oliver has always had blinkers on for what he didn't want to see.  Much easier to believe that he will come back and they will hash it out then than to do it immediately before he had to leave to meet Ra's.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Also, they're never gonna get rid of Laurel. You can wish for it but it's not happening. She's here to stay guys.

Based on what?  My belief that they may get rid of her is based on money, which is what network tv is really all about.  

[Guest]

In that TVLine interview, I found SA's reasoning for not telling Thea suspicious. Oliver can be a little smug sometimes, but I don't think he was by any means convinced he was going to win in this duel, unless our speculation is right and the fix was in before the fight.

 

I'm of two minds about Oliver in 309. Part of me thinks he was convinced he was going to win and then I also get the feeling he was certain he was going to his death. I think it could swing either way tbh. Like you could say he only told Felicity he loved her because he was settling his affairs and he needed her to know before he died. Or you could say he told her because he knew what he wanted to happen between them when he came back. The reasoning for both is there, same with Thea.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Guest

[BkWurm1]

I know it is a foolish hope to even entertain but during KC's twitter fight someone accused her of not having a job.  I am 99.9999999% sure it means nothing but I did take a brief glorious moment to fantasize that someone in the biz knew something we didn't. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by BkWurm1

[jay741982]

Episode 12 is when we are gonna hear from Felicity her feelings about Oliver is what I read. I wonder if maybe she blows up on Diggle Laurel and Roy for siding with Malcolm and she lets it slip she loves Oliver and can't believe they would accept help from a man who sent him to his death? Then she quits Team Arrow and then Oliver comes back. I'd hope he would blast them for working with Malcolm then work on getting Felicity back

[Guest]

Based on what?  My belief that they may get rid of her is based on money, which is what network tv is really all about.  

 

Based on the fact that I don't think they have the balls to get rid of another Black Canary on a show about Green Arrow. I think they can play with 'comic book canon' to a certain extent but these guys love Laurel too much. The amount they've changed for her is obvious. I can't believe they'd do all that and then write her off. I'll be really shocked if they did.

[calliope1975]

TV Guide to the rescue!

 

1. I watch most of those shows which says a lot about me. 2. I don't think I hated or even disliked any of those characters. Huh. Maybe I have bad taste. The only character I can remember really disliking and changing my opinion on was Jen Lindley from Dawson's Creek. Couldn't stand her until they made her a cheerleader and put her in that story line with Henry and I remember even thinking that I had changed my mind about her. By the end of the series (quit watching after the first year of college but came back for the finale) I loved Jen.

 

Katrina on Sleepy Hollow seems to be a current example. I've actually dropped SH after loving it last year. TPTB have ruined everything I enjoyed about the show.

 

I'd love for this next arc to tank but I have a feeling it'll be more of the same. Decent enough ratings. Decent enough critiques and reviews so nothing will change. 

 

I did notice a lot of unhappy people commenting on the Facebook page after KC's intro. I only skimmed it, but it had some vocal Laurel detractors.

[apinknightmare]

 

Adds Kreisberg: “What Laurel very clearly lacks in skill, she makes up for in grit and determination. In a lot of ways, she helps everyone else comes to terms with Oliver’s absence and helps them find within themselves what this crusade means to them and helps them get back on track.”

 

From the EW interview just posted in SPOILERS ONLY. I mean, l'll wait to see how it plays out, but...no.

Edited January 21, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

 

Oliver’s absence and his willingness to place himself in harm’s way looms very large in Felicity’s interactions with Palmer because Palmer represents a chance for her hopefully to do things differently.”

I wish Guggenheim would stop trying to push Raylicity on us because so far it's just played out like a C-level Olicity.  Does he really think that after Oliver has just left, telling Felicity he loves her, Felicity's going to go "Oh, where can I find myself another superhero who plays it safe and sticks around?"

 

 

“Ray Palmer is on a little bit of a power trip in trying to develop his suit, so when that happens, that is when I think things will be in danger because you have a new superhero on a power trip,” Haynes cautions.

Whereas Laurel is not on a power trip??????

[Guest]

From the EW interview just posted in SPOILERS ONLY. I mean, l'll wait to see how it plays out, but...no.

 

That should be a giant NO. NOPE. NON. NYET. 

[AyChihuahua]

They got rid of BC #1 to make room for Laurel, though, so that counts against Laurel.  And they have to follow which comic book canon?  The one where BC is a bisexual martial arts master (better than Batman)?  Or the comic book canon where she's a badass martial arts master and a florist who divorced Green Arrow?  Or the comic book canon where she's a badass martial arts master who has apparently never met Green Arrow?  And which Green Arrow?  The returned-from-the-dead re-ensouled one, or the one with like three illegitimate kids?  Or the one with the Arrowcar?  I mean, comic book canon isn't what comic book people actually say, since it's always being revised.  I used to collect Marvel, have both Secret Wars, and that stuff changes constantly.

 

And most importantly, this isn't a comic book, which only needs a few hundred thousand buyers to keep going.  It's a network show.  The network suits are the ones with the real power, so even if all the EPs want to keep her, that doesn't mean they will get to.  And it doesn't really matter what her contract says, even.  I am a contracts attorney...any contract can be breached, you just have to be willing to pay for it.  PLUS, I know KC was the CW's favorite child for awhile, but she ain't getting any younger, and she hasn't exactly brought a lot of success to her recent CW show stints.  (Full disclosure, I am older than she is...I am speaking ONLY of the CW's view of age.)  I used to live in LA, hung out with some people in the biz, and a more disloyal group of people you are unlikely ever to meet.

 

That is not to say they will get rid of her, of course.  But I definitely think they might, if these episodes tank.  It is pretty telling how much they've been back-pedaling from Kreisberg's extremely clear statement that the 10-12 (or 13) are the BC trilogy.

[Chaser]

It sounds all inspiring, but it probably means Laurel gets her butt kicked and the others realize the City would be doomed left in her hands. 

 

Kind of like how she was going to reach Oliver in his darkest times and really she just yelled at him well he tried to walk away until she actually proved she had useful information.

 

Or like the time she decides to keep Olivers secret in a really amazing way, only to try and convince her father to give him up and then took his reasons as her own for keeping silent.

[Password]

Someone on Green Arrow TV said Olicity has the potential to be toxic. It just made me go "errrrr". The question asked was does Olicity have a chance.

MATT: Cue the air raid siren.

Personally, I don’t think so. Though, I give the showrunners and writers credit that they explore all of the characters as normal, flawed human beings. And human beings have ways of making unexpected choices and retracing their steps many times throughout their lives. I think they move on from Olicity after Season 3, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they wouldn’t revisit it in some fashion later on in the series.

I do commend them for recognizing that they needed to address it on the series. I’m not a fan of them as a romantic couple because their connection has always felt to me close and very important but not in that way. I also think it convolutes things too much for them in what they’re doing with their lives, and that seems to be more toxic than conducive to a relationship.

I feel Felicity deserves someone outside of the lifestyle for the balance.

I mean look if you don't particularly like the pairing, fine, but exactly what kind of connection should love starved Oliver find if Olicity has the potential to be toxic. Any relationship has that potential, but I really think this person has a strange opinion on romantic connection. And if he feels Felicity needs someone "normal" he hasn't really cottoned onto the fact that she may just be...I don't know extremely bored by that???? Oliver showed her she can be more than IT support, now she needs someone to ground her and remind her to be IT support? Eh.

I do find it odd that people think Olicity is a flash in the pan when the writers have absolutely gone out of their way to link Felicity to Oliver's humanity, and desperate WANT for a normal life.

[Guest]

Someone on Green Arrow TV said Olicity has the potential to be toxic. It just made me go "errrrr". The question asked was does Olicity have a chance.

I mean look if you don't particularly like the pairing, fine, but exactly what kind of connection should love starved Oliver find if Olicity has the potential to be toxic. Any relationship has that potential, but I really think this person has a strange opinion on romantic connection. And if he feels Felicity needs someone "normal" he hasn't really cottoned onto the fact that she may just be...I don't know extremely bored by that???? Oliver showed her she can be more than IT support, now she needs someone to ground her and remind her to be IT support? Eh.

I do find it odd that people think Olicity is a flash in the pan when the writers have absolutely gone out of their way to link Felicity to Oliver's humanity, and desperate WANT for a normal life.

 

GA TV are biased. They ship Laurel/Oliver because of the GA/BC comic book relationship. Plus they hate Felicity. They'll never like Olicity. I wouldn't put much weight in what they say.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Guest

[Password]

If they ship Laurel and Oliver it's kind of ridiculously ironic that they think Olicity are anywhere near toxic.

[Velocity23]

BECAUSE COMICS

[apinknightmare]

I'm watching The Flash, and they just played an Arrow promo - when Laurel says, "I'm the justice you can't run from," is she using a bo staff? Because, to quote myself from up thread...no.

[jay741982]

GA TV are biased. They ship Laurel/Oliver because of the GA/BC comic book relationship. Plus they hate Felicity. They'll never like Olicity. I wouldn't put much weight in what they say.

I don't understand how a toxic relationship can be shipped where in the comics he cheats on her multiple times and ends in divorce Great relationship NOT. It bothers me that people could hate Felicity she's so damn loveable

[Morrigan2575]

I'm watching The Flash, and they just played an Arrow promo - when Laurel says, "I'm the justice you can't run from," is she using a bo staff? Because, to quote myself from up thread...no.

she actually has both Sara's staff and sonic device

[jay741982]

I'm watching The Flash, and they just played an Arrow promo - when Laurel says, "I'm the justice you can't run from," is she using a bo staff? Because, to quote myself from up thread...no.

That line is so lame

[dtissagirl]

K-Site and its affiliates [like GATV] have a long history of posting 'ship hate as clickbait, especially when those dudebros have decided the 'ship to hate du jour is stealing their thunder. They hate them shippers, but them shippers bring click moneys.

[apinknightmare]

she actually has both Sara's staff and sonic device

 

She does?

Edited January 21, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

she actually has both Sara's staff and sonic device

Single White Black Canary storyline, here we come. Wheeee! [Lol, Laurel. Never change.]

[Morrigan2575]

She does?

I believe so. A friend of mine took a screen cap off one of the trailers and she's got the staff in one hand and a blue lit circle device in the other. She thinks it's the Canary Device.

[apinknightmare]

I believe so. A friend of mine took a screen cap off one of the trailers and she's got the staff in one hand and a blue lit circle device in the other. She thinks it's the Canary Device.

 

Blerg.

[Orion]

Adds Kreisberg: “What Laurel very clearly lacks in skill, she makes up for in grit and determination. In a lot of ways, she helps everyone else comes to terms with Oliver’s absence and helps them find within themselves what this crusade means to them and helps them get back on track.”

 

I am running out of expletives.

[BkWurm1]

Matt from GA TV suffers from Smallville PTSD whether he admits it or not.  I remember waaaay back in the day when he shipped Chloe and Clark.  Later he switched to the company line and toed it hard and in return the site got special access to an extent. That business model worked once and I don't think they've dared to veer from it.   

 

 

I believe so. A friend of mine took a screen cap off one of the trailers and she's got the staff in one hand and a blue lit circle device in the other. She thinks it's the Canary Device.

 

I guess it makes sense.  She's going to need the sonic device.  I'm more ok with that than a lot of the rest of her "journey"  It's just a button for her to push. 

[Velocity23]

Spoiler TV posted the promo.

[apinknightmare]

I guess it makes sense.  She's going to need the sonic device.  I'm more ok with that than a lot of the rest of her "journey"  It's just a button for her to push. 

 

I'm not outraged by it or anything, but I honestly (naively) thought the am I my sister? thing wouldn't be, you know, literal. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

Adds Kreisberg: “What Laurel very clearly lacks in skill, she makes up for in grit and determination. In a lot of ways, she helps everyone else comes to terms with Oliver’s absence and helps them find within themselves what this crusade means to them and helps them get back on track.”

 

I'm getting more annoyed by this the more I read it because Diggle and Felicity especially have been part of Oliver's crusade since the beginning,  so I find it pretty insulting for Laurel to be the one to come along and remind them their reasons why. They've always had faith in the crusade otherwise they would have left a long time ago. Grrrrrr.

[apinknightmare]

I'm getting more annoyed by this the more I read it because Diggle and Felicity especially have been part of Oliver's crusade since the beginning,  so I find it pretty insulting for Laurel to be the one to come along and remind them their reasons why. They've always had faith in the crusade otherwise they would have left a long time ago. Grrrrrr.

 

Maybe it won't really play out like that on the show? These guys sometimes have weird interpretations of stuff considering how it actually goes over on screen.

[Guest]

Maybe it won't really play out like that on the show? These guys sometimes have weird interpretations of stuff considering how it actually goes over on screen.

 

I hope so. I don't trust anything the EP's say anymore tbh but sometimes I read something and it just grates on me because of course Laurel will be the one to remind them of their crusade. Of course.

[Chaser]

I feel like a broken record, but we have had interviews from SA, DR, CH, JB, KC and all the EPs….where is EBR and WH?

 

I hate that quote about Laurel and her influence on Team Arrow. I find it insulting to Diggle and Felicity. I'll even be offended for Roy. 

 

Watched the promo with Laurel's debut and it wasn't as 'impressive' as I thought they would make it look in the trailer. It just looked like Laurel in Cosplay. Also, did she name herself Black Canary? I find that amusing. 

[Morrigan2575]

These are all from TCAs.

[Chaser]

That explains it.

 

Still Annoyed.

[blixie]

 

What Laurel very clearly lacks in skill,

 

So Laurel is Kick Ass? And there is no way they couldn't have like TOLD A STORY where Laurel becomes skilled or is already skilled enough to become a believable vigilante. Keeerist. These people make me tired.

[TanyaKay]

Whereas Laurel is not on a power trip??????

Being on a power trip is basically Laurel's default mode. For Ray, it would be a change from his regular crazy eyes way.

[statsgirl]

That is not to say they will get rid of her, of course.  But I definitely think they might, if these episodes tank.  It is pretty telling how much they've been back-pedaling from Kreisberg's extremely clear statement that the 10-12 (or 13) are the BC trilogy.

We've been questioning for a while 1. how long is KC's contract, 6 years like SA or 3 like the supporting players; and 2. does it have a clause that requires them to pay mega bucks to her if they take her off the show before it's done. Any thoughts?

 

 

Adds Kreisberg: “What Laurel very clearly lacks in skill, she makes up for in grit and determination. In a lot of ways, she helps everyone else comes to terms with Oliver’s absence and helps them find within themselves what this crusade means to them and helps them get back on track.”

Is this the same Laurel we're talking about? The one who has no time for anyone's pain but her own.

 

I think even worse than making her InstaCanary is the retcon of her personality into Mother Theresa.  They are so desperate to make Laurel happen, I don't know whether to pity them or give in to fury.

[Chaser]

This is how they have always talked about her character. The problem was always in the translation. I don't know if they will nail it this time and suddenly she will be all they described or if it will fail again. If she suddenly is all this, do people embrace her? Or to they resent her sudden perfection? 

 

This is why I don't think much is going to change. The people who hate her will still hate her. The people who loved her will still love her. Some people on the fence will go one way and some people on the fence will go another. And some who didn't care, still won't care.

[apinknightmare]

This is why I don't think much is going to change. The people who hate her will still hate her. The people who loved her will still love her. Some people on the fence will go one way and some people on the fence will go another. And some who didn't care, still won't care.

 

Same. 

 

I think there will be a BC trend tomorrow during the show, and I think she'll probably have a fairly good reception. I think there are a lot of people who will watch and be glad to see her kicking ass/being a badass/whatever she does, and they won't really question how she got there. I mean, there will definitely be people who don't like it/her, but I would be surprised if there's an overwhelmingly negative response to her or if it changes anything at all regarding her character. Most of the articles will probably be in the vein of "Finally!" instead of pointing out the fact that her trajectory thus far doesn't make sense. But she's BC now because comics! so...whatever.

[statsgirl]

I think the only question is whether KC can sell "badass", especially after Sara/CL doing it so well..  Will she be believable to the comic book types who think Laurel deserves to be the Black Canary because of Comics.

 

My daughter, who had not yet seen the costume, looked at the promo and asked "Why is she dressed like a dominatrix?"

[AyChihuahua]

 

We've been questioning for a while 1. how long is KC's contract, 6 years like SA or 3 like the supporting players; and 2. does it have a clause that requires them to pay mega bucks to her if they take her off the show before it's done. Any thoughts?

I don't do entertainment contracts, but if she has a 3-year with options they can get out for nothing...they just don't exercise an option.  If she has a six-year, it probably has a liquidated damages clause, which would be some amount less than just keeping her the whole time.  It would be terrible negotiating, after all, to make your cost to breach the exact same as the cost not to breach. 

 

Also, as someone else on one of these boards pointed out, this isn't the usual "let's try something with Laurel" arc.  Not only is this the biggest attempt to make her happen so far, there is no Oliver to take up the slack.  That alone is a huge change from her past supposedly major and interesting arcs.

Edited January 21, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

I just really wish they didn't have her out there saying stuff like, "I'm the justice you can't run from" at this point. Is that definitely in tomorrow's ep? And when did she learn to use a bo staff? I'm hoping it plays differently in the show, because quippy one-liners should be reserved for...people who aren't over-confident newbies. 

[catrox14]

I laughed at Laurel kicking the guy. KC still hasn't learned how to land a fake anything....well fakanary but still. And what a stupid fucking line.

[apinknightmare]

I think the only question is whether KC can sell "badass", especially after Sara/CL doing it so well..  Will she be believable to the comic book types who think Laurel deserves to be the Black Canary because of Comics.

 

Honestly, I don't think it'll matter if she can sell it or not. She'll be in the costume, and that's all some people care about.

 

I think tomorrow, after she suits up, there will be a lot of "I never really liked Laurel, but I'm digging this!" kind of comments. Obviously, I'm prepared to be wrong, but if I had to bet? I'd say that's exactly what's going to happen.

Edited January 21, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

Honestly, I don't think it'll matter if she can sell it or not. She'll be in the costume, and that's all some people care about.

 

Too True.

 

I was on a tumblr that is(was?) heavily anti-Laurel as BC and they had re-blogged a gif set with the few seconds of Laurel from the promo. The tags were 'looks cool that's see if they can keep it up'. Huh??? 

Edited January 21, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[ban1o]

Also I think KC will be able to sell it. From interviews she said she did a lot of training for the roll and has experience in gymnastics and wanted to do a lot of the stunts which will probably make her more physically believable. I think a lot of people will buy it.

[somewhereother]

I just really wish they didn't have her out there saying stuff like, "I'm the justice you can't run from" at this point. Is that definitely in tomorrow's ep? And when did she learn to use a bo staff? I'm hoping it plays differently in the show, because quippy one-liners should be reserved for...people who aren't over-confident newbies. 

 

I'm not sure whether to take the "I'm the justice you can't run from" as a standard superhero line or as a meta commentary on how the viewers can't escape Laurel.

[wonderwall]

I think laurel will be successful in the most superficial way. Badass characters are less boring, it makes Laurel more interesting because she isn't sitting in a corner weeping anymore, and she'll be tied to the main plot now so she's not useless.  

[dtissagirl]

I'm not sure whether to take the "I'm the justice you can't run from" as a standard superhero line or as a meta commentary on how the viewers can't escape Laurel.

Meta. Laurel's always meta.