Spoiler Discussion Thread

[jay741982]

What's sad is her season arc is propping up an not popular newbie

LOL I like said they are delusional a lot of people don't think she deserves the Black Canary Title I know I think she hasn't earned a Goddamn thing yet

[Chaser]

I don't think they would every revisit Laurel and Oliver because at this point it would firmly establish Laurel as the second choice. I think they can get away with going with Felicity after the Laurel arc in season one because it felt very much like a man trying to fix his past mistakes and a couple trying to live in the past. But they are two very different character now it just doesn't work.

 

If they were to backtrack with Laurel and Oliver, it would damage any both there characters. Oliver would regress and Laurel would be willing to get together with the man who cheated on her repeatedly (with her sister and probably with others), who she believed contributed to her sister's death (no once but twice), is the brother of the woman who killed her sister, who protected the man who orchestrated her sister's death (knowingly or not Malcolm was bad news), refused to help train her to avenge her sister and didn't trust her with his secret in the beginning. Thats a laundry list of messed up.

 

Also, I'm assuming we are at the 'becoming my sister' stage of the arc. Did I miss everything else? She didn't avenge anyone and if Ted's line was her accepting she never would…then that's lame. And was the going after a guy with the baseball bat, her way of honoring Sara? We skipped over so much.

 

If Felicity does say the "I don't want to be a woman you love..", if it is to Oliver when he comes back then I really hope that means he comes back saying that to her. I'm okay with her turning him down if it leads to an Oliver that starts fighting. We were told that Felicity ties into his humanity arc. I'm hopefully this is were it starts.

[Chiny11]

BTW... Something else that makes me apprehensive about this Ray person is that

When we had Barry (who I love btw) we knew he had Iris. Ray fiance is dead. I hope they are not positioning Felicity as "the one" for Ray.

With the way they are pushing BC... I fear They may be heading to Lauriver 2.0 in season 4. Because with the way these writers think... I just don't trust them.

[Velocity23]

Didnt Laurel Brown say Felicitys arc wont be about Ray.

[apinknightmare]

Didnt Laurel Brown say Felicitys arc wont be about Ray.

 

No, she said that she has some information about Felicity from the TCA that isn't about Ray. I think she's got her own arc, and then she's got one with Ray. 

[Velocity23]

Well i hope its good. And its not about Felicity leaving Team Arrow.

[Chaser]

I'm really curious about what they plan to do with Felicity in the back half. We know she shares a lot of screen time with Ray (because apparently he won't be spending much time with anyone else) and Thea. 

 

My wish list for Felicity:

She helps Ray with his hero-tech but only as a friend.

Her arc with Oliver has her turning him down out of fear of abandonment but they remain close as he fights for her

Her and Thea build a friendship and share lots of screen time 

The Diggle/Felicity friendship is reestablished

She goes mafia wife on Malcolm 

[quarks]

The producers have acknowledged more than once that Laurel is not popular. They know. They go to the same genre cons I do and talk to the same people (we have mutual acquaintances) but even if they didn't, this is not a particularly Deep Secret.  They have people telling them this constantly on Twitter and Facebook. If they had any doubts, they could look at the ratings for this season: the four highest rated episodes (The Brave and The Bold, The Climb, The Calm, The Secret Origins of Felicity Smoak) were all the same episodes where Laurel had five minutes or less of screentime (under two minutes in the top rated episode); the next one on that list is Draw Back Your Bow, which she wasn't in.  The worst rated episodes of the season, from highest to lowest: Guilty ( more than ten minutes of Laurel and Roy), Corto Maltese (Laurel goes out as a baseball bat wielding vigilante), The Magician (more than ten minutes of Laurel), Sara (more than ten minutes of Laurel.)  As I said, not a particularly deep secret. This is on Wikipedia. 

 

Moving on, this is more or less the same exact thing that happened last season at exactly this same time, with all of saying more or less exactly the same things we were saying then, namely, what are the producers thinking?  They have a popular character in Felicity, and a strong actress in Thea; they've got an awesome potential storyline with the League of Assassins; ARGUS is shaping up to be a major big bad; yay Suicide Squad, and this year they have little robot weapons or whatever Ray is doing, and they've got a popular romantic storyline with Oliver and Felicity, and yet, what are they doing? Spending time on a little character arc for Laurel that ended up...not changing much, and bringing a big blockade for Oliver/Felicity so that they can't make any progress until the end of the season. Oh, and yes, Roy.  

 

Seriously, it's exactly the same, except for Ray's robots.  We even have Nyssa and Slade coming back again, and a long flashback episode where, like in "The Promise" last year, we already know that Oliver survives and doesn't contact his family.  The Oliver/Felicity block is even coming at more or less the same time - episode 12 instead of 13, but that's about the only difference.

 

So, what happened last year? Well, after a rewatch, I realized that if you ignore Time of Death and try to pretend nothing in it except for Slade's return actually happened (and that's surprisingly easy to do) the entire 2B arc ended up holding up pretty well. Yeah, the first episodes of it - exactly where we are now with 3B - were a bit rough. But the Laurel episode, Blind Spot, wasn't nearly as bad as I remembered. And has more Team Arrow than I thought it did.   And post episode 18, the show came roaring back.

 

I think what's actually happening is a problem we've seen elsewhere on U.S. television: the issue of trying to deliver 23 quality episodes, in a short filming schedule, while keeping the major plot twists/love developments in November, February and May.  It's impossible. No show is doing it, at least not every year. (Pushing Daisies came close, but it ignored sweeps months and only lasted for 22 total episodes. So it doesn't count.)  Add to that in the case of this particular show the attempt to add character development to a controversial character in non sweeps months, and you have an added problem.  Which in turn leads to be what Amell himself noted at one point: the January episodes of this show have not gone well, although I think they come off a bit better in rewatches.  

 

Which is a long way to say that whatever happens in the next few episodes, I do have some hope that the show will come roaring back at the end of the season.

 

I have no hope whatsoever that Guggenheim will stop telling us that fans are going to hate parts of upcoming episodes, though.

[Chaser]

Quarks - Your head is so level you could balance a book on it

[MsSchadenfreude]

@quarks, I feel like I should say this more often, but I absolutely agree with your post.  :)

[statsgirl]

ABC has started limiting their shows (OUaT, AoS) and putting in short-term shows in between (Galavant, Agent Carter).  If the Arrowverse EPs are so set on spin-offs, they should start consider doing that.  Even SA said he'd like a 17 ep Arrow and a Suicide Squad mini-series.

[Chiny11]

ABC has started limiting their shows (OUaT, AoS) and putting in short-term shows in between (Galavant, Agent Carter). If the Arrowverse EPs are so set on spin-offs, they should start consider doing that. Even SA said he'd like a 17 ep Arrow and a Suicide Squad mini-series.

ABC did not limit the OUAT or AoS.

OUAT actually got and extra hour added this season which comes to 23 episodes. What ABC is doing is giving their shows (Scandal, HTGAwM, OUAT, AoS etc.) a long winter break. During the winter break they are airing shows that have short seasons (eg. galavant is airing during OUAT slowt).

All these shows will be back from end of Feb to beginning of March to continue their season run all the was to May when the TV season ends. .

Edited January 12, 2015 by Chiny11

[statsgirl]

Oops.

 

Still seems like a good idea to me to limit the number of episodes a season. Canadian shows usually have 13, British shows have even fewer.

[BkWurm1]

Even SA said he'd like a 17 ep Arrow and a Suicide Squad mini-series.

 

Instead we're getting the Rise of the Buckle Canary in three episodes. 

[Starfish35]

ABC did not limit the OUAT or AoS.

OUAT actually got and extra hour added this season which comes to 23 episodes. What ABC is doing is giving their shows (Scandal, HTGAwM, OUAT, AoS etc.) a long winter break. During the winter break they are airing shows that have short seasons (eg. galavant is airing during OUAT slowt).

All these shows will be back from end of Feb to beginning of March to continue their season run all the was to May when the TV season ends. .

Correct. Instead of having their shows come back early and then get hurt because of being on one week and off the next, they decided it was better to run them in two (mostly) uninterrupted chunks. Thus the later returns. But it didn't shorten the episode order at all.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[jay741982]

Regarding the new tweet from MG maybe they ARE doing the Felicity rejects Oliver when he returns to keep him focused on saving the city thing OR he still will reject her cause he's messed up in the head.

[Velocity23]

[jay741982]

Lol MAYBE some of us were jumping to Conclusions MAYBE

I wonder what would get us hating him?

[Velocity23]

Never trust Guggentroll too much.

[jay741982]

Trust me Velocity I already know

[Chaser]

MG has a rather black and white view of Olicity shippers IMO. I really think Felicity slams the brakes on Oliver in 3x12. So because they wouldn't be together MG thinks Olicity fans will hate him. But there is a big difference between  an unpopular outcome for organic reasons and an unpopular outcome for convoluted reasons. If Felicity decides against starting something with Oliver for real, in character reasons IMO most fans will be happy to soak in the angst bathtub. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[jay741982]

10eleven12 do you mean like if she rejects him cause of her issues or like I was thinking, she slams the brakes cause of her being a weakness to him and wanting him to not have her as a Distraction

[BkWurm1]

MG has a rather black and white view of Olicity shippers IMO. I really think Felicity slams the brakes on Oliver in 3x12. So because they wouldn't be together MG thinks Olicity fans will hate him. But there is a big difference between  an unpopular outcome for organic reasons and an unpopular outcome for convoluted reasons. If Felicity decides against starting something with Oliver for real, in character reasons IMO most fans will be happy to soak in the angst bathtub. 

I liked this so much I literally tried to like it twice.  (which might have unliked it, so I liked it a third time)

 

The hate only comes from ship destroying stuff.  Anything less I might find annoying or frustrating or a host of other adjectives, but hate comes with specific unfixable reasons.  (He did get some hate about the Sara stuff too)

Edited January 12, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

MG has a rather black and white view of Olicity shippers IMO. I really think Felicity slams the brakes on Oliver in 3x12. So because they wouldn't be together MG thinks Olicity fans will hate him. But there is a big difference between  an unpopular outcome for organic reasons and an unpopular outcome for convoluted reasons. If Felicity decides against starting something with Oliver for real, in character reasons IMO most fans will be happy to soak in the angst bathtub. 

 

 

Plus, he has a tendency to be sensational and miss the mark in terms of how he thinks the audience will react. Whatever it is probably won't be too bad, and hopefully will make sense for Felicity (whatever it is). 

[Sunshine]

I think Felicity is going to reject Oliver when he comes back. "I don't want to be a woman you love." He may once again tell her he loves her but it doesn't mean he's willing to do anything about it. I don't think Oliver is going to immediately decide to embrace a life outside the cave. Her rejection may start him on the path of embracing his two personas.

I think if there is a Felicity & Ray "lunge" it will occur in either 3.13 or 3.14 so that one doesn't appear to be a reaction to the other. I wonder if we will see Felicity that much in the Foundry or if it's all at Palmer Technologies? Unfortunately I think we are going to see a lot of Oliver & Laurel scenes working together.

[TwistedandBored]

Feels like last year when the show became all about costumed heroes and villains and ignored their other characters. Good times! 

[Chaser]

My theory (or hope I guess): Felicity has some abandonment issues (her father, Cooper). She has already said she was afraid of losing Oliver. She is going to know the pain of losing Oliver. It isn't going to be a fear that lives in the back of her head. So if Oliver comes back ready to give it everything, I understand her saying no. I actually want her too. 

 

I'm just don't want Felicity to separate herself from Team Arrow. I think it may happen. But I really don't want it.

 

This is really reminding me of when MG made a big deal about Felicity acting 'intentionally OOC' in The Climb and as it turns out it was totally in character for the fans.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm just don't want Felicity to separate herself from Team Arrow. I think it may happen. But I really don't want it.

I read a post at another board the suggested that's exactly what will happen. Felicity will split her time between Ray and TA and they will use Felicity's absence to integrate Laurel in a way that doesn't have her competiting with Felicity.

[jay741982]

Ugh Felicity needs to stay with Team Arrow. I don't want shared time with Laurel just no. God this crap that Ray only really interacts with Felicity pisses me off. If they want him to be better liked have him interact with Oliver Diggle and Roy. This Felicity propping him makes me angry too when the story should be about her

[apinknightmare]

I read a post at another board the suggested that's exactly what will happen. Felicity will split her time between Ray and TA and they will use Felicity's absence to integrate Laurel in a way that doesn't have her competiting with Felicity.

 

It could be, at least for a little while. Especially since someone (I can't remember which EP) said that Ray's on a different trajectory, and it also ties in with EBR saying earlier this season that Felicity's going to feel a little stretched and have difficulty juggling everything. Not sure how I feel about it - I'd have to see how they do it.

[Chaser]

I've heard that too and it really wouldn't surprise me if they went that route. But I do think thats a horrible plan. They have to stop removing characters to make Laurel fit. Its about integrating a character, not inserting her into whatever slot is available.

[apinknightmare]

I'm not going to worry about Laurel getting integrated into Felicity's place until there's some indication that's going to happen. I was worried about that happening at the beginning of the season when it came out that she'd be working with Team Arrow, and it turns out she hasn't really done that much with them after all. 

 

I'm more interested in what the team is going to tell her about Oliver's disappearance/death and if she finds out that Thea was ultimately responsible for Sara's death and that Oliver fought Ra's to save her. I think that will go a long way towards telling what kind of integration she'll have on the team in the future - I imagine it would be hard for her to get over that. Granted, they could have her get over it immediately to show a forgiving spirit, but they've never really gone the sympathetic route with her. 

[Morrigan2575]

I've heard that too and it really wouldn't surprise me if they went that route. But I do think thats a horrible plan. They have to stop removing characters to make Laurel fit. Its about integrating a character, not inserting her into whatever slot is available.

if they go that route and, it's just speculation at this point, it actually seems massively counter productive. It would pretty much be the TCA all over again. Why isn't Felicity in the cave? Why all these Team Arrow scenes without Felicity? Are they trying to replace Felicity? Etc, etc, etc.

Just seems like a dumb move if the point is to get people to embrace Laurel. However, I can't say it won't happen.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

If they keep shoving people out of the way for Laurel, it's going to be really difficult to get people to like her. 

[ostentatious]

I actually do think they'll give Laurel *some* alone time with Roy and Diggle while Felicity is off with Ray. That will be a dynamic they will want to show, in this experiment they're doing. I don't think it will be more than once, though.

[jay741982]

How bout showing Ray interacting with Diggle Roy and Laurel? It's one reason I don't like him the writers only show him with Felicity! It just bugs me that they promote that stalkerish behavior gets your the affection of a smart funny Strong sexy woman like Felicity.

[dtissagirl]

I think one of the few things these EPs are hyper-aware of, is that scenes between KC and Amell tend to flop, so I really can't see them making the characters try to bond. Amell mentioned he hadn't had scenes with KC as Black Canary while they were filming 312 [he mentioned this at the Flash/Arrow screening]. They probably have scenes in 313, but then 314 is flashback heavy, so out of the next 5 episodes, there's a good possibility Oliver and Laurel will only interact in one episode.

[AyChihuahua]

Oliver Queen is the reason I watch this show.  I would not have watched episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer without Buffy, Angel without Angel (or Angelus) or Veronica Mars without Veronica.  This is just stupid and I'm surprisingly angry that they're ruining a show I really liked.

[statsgirl]

There will be Oliver, just in flashbacks. But I agree, I'm not looking forward to those episodes.

 

t also ties in with EBR saying earlier this season that Felicity's going to feel a little stretched and have difficulty juggling everything. Not sure how I feel about it - I'd have to see how they do it.

I thought she was referring to Corto Maltese, where Felicity is trying to juggle calls from Team Arrow and Laurel with her work at QC.

 

I'm not that worried about Laurel taking Felicity's place in the lair because she really couldn't.  Beyond not knowing the tech, Felicity unites people and Laurel divides them  But I hope that once Felicity has helped Ray with his suit and he's joined the battle in ep  311, she integrates him into the Team Arrow world (saves time working only one comm), and then Ray can have scenes with other people and so can she.  Then they can all be a big team, and Oliver has to deal with how everyone has moved on when he gets back.

Edited January 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

I think I might have been a bit more upset about how little Oliver was going to be in a few episodes if I hadn't actually already been a bit worried about the load and schedule SA has been carrying.  It was the first thing that occurred to me when I heard the spoilers.  I can't quite separate my reaction in this case. 

Edited January 12, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

Flashback OQ is awful.  I should have specified present-day OQ, who I've loved since probably the middle of S1.  Even with his many flaws.

Edited January 12, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

I thought she was referring to Corto Maltese, where Felicity is trying to juggle calls from Team Arrow and Laurel with her work at QC.

 

I thought it was a general statement about Felicity being stretched thin this season, but it could've been just in reference to that one episode. I don't remember.

[statsgirl]

Looks like Ray isn't in the Arrow cave after all.  I changed my vote, if Laurel is there and no Felicity, then I'm not interested.

 

 

We knew Ray was coming on to be an Olicity obstacle - I just don't understand why people seem to be getting disheartened about it now - we've been discussing the possibility of this relationship since it was posted that Felicity would be getting a love interest.

IMO, they've already done it.  Oliver went to tell Felicity how he feels, he saw her kissing Ray, he walked away.  

 

It served it's purpose, Oliver didn't get together with Felicity before he had to leave. But there's a Best Before date on using Ray for Olicity angst and using him to delay Olicity again would be milking that past the point where it's good storytelling.

 

Also, I need something to tune if for if they're going to do Laurel Canary from now on.

Edited January 12, 2015 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

Don’t look for Ray Palmer in the Arrow cave.

Ray (Brandon Routh) has his whole Atom thing going on throughout season 3, but you probably shouldn’t hold your breath if you’re waiting to see the man in the Arrow cave. He is instead sticking to street fighting, saving the world with technology, and alternating between flirting with and annoying Felicity.

 

Street fighting. Huh.

 

Maybe this is the side that Felicity has previously not seen?  I mean, I'm not just blanking out and forgetting a scene where he did some street fighting, am I?  I swear with the amount of Fan Fiction I've read during the hiatus I could be getting something mixed up. 

[Password]

We'll probably learn Ray dizzy has martial arts training.

None of what they tell me about Ray makes me happy...except the blowing things up thing. But that makes me wonder how he'd save the city by breaking it.

[statsgirl]

Could Ray have martial arts?  He couldn't save his fiance, but neither Oliver nor Sara could fight a mirakuru soldier.

 

I'd laugh if it came out that Ray had extensive martial arts training, while Laurel became the Black Canary with just her boxing lessons.

[JenMcSnark]

Do you mind clarifying? Because I don't think they've done a single thing that indicates that these two will ever get back together again. Is it because GA/BC were a thing in the comics and you think they'll stick with that? 

 

Well, it is in part what @DannyFranks said.  And part of it - probably a large part - is just from being dicked around by their marketing strategy.  

 

Stephen's comment about Season 3 Olicity is part of it.  And the direction (or lack thereof) that they are taking with Laurel is a large part.  

 

But probably the main thing is their new found adherence to whatever comic book story they think they are following.  I think that they showed that Oliver was damaged in S1 but that Laurel was the love of his life.  They couldn't make it work.

 

Then in S2, they've shown that he needs the light that is Felicity.  And they've taken advantage of that wonderful chemistry to suck people who don't care for Laurel in. 

 

But then you have Katie/Laurel dropping the soulmates thing even when the show was telling us different.  And no one correcting that except Stephen who specifically said S3. 

 

I think it's quite possible, given how they LOVE to add to Oliver's manpain to further his journey, that they will kill Felicity at some point.  They probably will put them together first; more than likely S4 early episodes. And then she will die.

 

In the meantime, they will advance the BC arc and make Laurel his co-crime fighter if not exactly partner.  In her zeal for "saving the world", they will be able to make her more empathetic and have her and Oliver become closer organically no matter what his relationship status with Felicity. 

 

And when she is killed, it will be Laurel to whom he turns.  Laurel who understands his struggle and secrets. Laurel who lost a (supposedly) beloved partner to death in Tommy.  Laurel who has always believed in Oliver and believed that they are soulmates who would someday be together.  A Laurel who is more independent and strong instead of the doormat who let Ollie cheat on her, etc.

 

And I almost...almost could actually watch that story.  IF it wasn't for Felicity who is a great character in her OWN right with no need for propping.  And IF it wasn't for the extreme lack of chemistry between Oliver/Laurel and their horribly unhealthy history.   And IF it wasn't for Sarah who was so good as the Black Canary and had the journey to earn the name of Black Canary. 

 

Hopefully that makes sense.  My daughter is harassing me to watch Downton Abbey.  :-)  My typing is "disturbing" her.  

[JenMcSnark]

There hasn't been any comment that Oliver/Felicity is OTP but she's the woman he thought of as he was dying, and she's the only one he's said 'I love you 'to, not to mention she was referred to as his light a number of times whereas Laurel is darkness. It's hard to switch permanently from that, no matter what idiocy they may put in there in the meantime.

 

I remember I stopped watching ER in season 9 and Castle in season 4 because I hated the pairings and wasn't interested in anything else on the show. I'd hate to do that for Arrow now..

Don't get me wrong.  I truly believe that Oliver loves and needs Felicity.  The chemistry between the actors is arguably undeniable and they'd be idiots not to play off that for at least awhile.  I just think that they may feel it's a better story to have Felicity "save" Oliver and then die to fully propel him to be the Green Arrow.  And that would leave Laurel as the natural end game.  

[BkWurm1]

So I see Marc Guggenheim is trying to clarify his "we chart our own course" comment. 

 

So his tweet over in the Behind the Mask thread was:

 

Guys, regarding that "we chart our own course" quote, we work about a half a season before broadcast #wehavenochoicebutto

 

Sooooo....Huh?

 

I guess it sounds like he's saying they've already decided what to do for the show and it's too late to change anything now? 

 

I guess that ties to the idea he was addressing what kind of influence social media reaction might have on the show.  At least that's what I'm getting. 

I just think that they may feel it's a better story to have Felicity "save" Oliver and then die to fully propel him to be the Green Arrow.  And that would leave Laurel as the natural end game.

 

I can't see how they could sell it as a good story for someone else be the one that Oliver regains his humanity for only for Laurel to show up and be his consolation prize. 

 

"There, there, you can't be with the woman you love but I'll never leave you."  Um, no thank you.  

[statsgirl]

When KC said that Laurel was going to be the Black Canary even before the pilot was filmed, I thought yeah, but sometimes second thoughts are better, especially when the character is tanking.

 

 

I just think that they may feel it's a better story to have Felicity "save" Oliver and then die to fully propel him to be the Green Arrow.  And that would leave Laurel as the natural end game.

 

The problem with that is that these guys are TV producers and they need to have an audience for their next show.  Killing Felicity so that Oliver could be with Laurel would infuriate a substantial portion of the audience, who would then not watch the next show Guggenheim and possibly Kreisburg and Berlanti got on TV.

 

People may like angst, but what they really love is a happy ending.

 

David Shore pissed off a lot of the audience with the last seasons of House, and he's never got another show on the air since.