Spoiler Discussion Thread

[LeighAn]

19 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I'm sure this doesn't help but there are BNF metas out there where this is a good thing for Oliver & Felicity.  The reasoning is it shows growth on Oliver's part in that he recognizes that he needs to move on with his life and isn't trying to force anything with Felicity.   He'd be all in with Felicity if she only gave him the right encouragement.  Susan is needed for Felicity to realize what she truly wants with/from Oliver.   

My personal take is Oliver/Susan isn't growth on Olivers part as much as it is breaking the cordiality between Oliver and Felicity in post break up limbo. Sort of like a wake up call to Felicity on whether she is ready to close the door on Oliver forever. There's being ready to do so in theory and ready to do so in reality. 

I agree with the theories that in terms of reuniting the balls in Felicitys court and the writing seems to be setting up  that she has to be the one to make the first move.

I would however like to see a lot more effort on Olivers part however to show he's worth taking that risk again. 

11 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Because I find Oliver incredibly stupid with the Reporter, I'm actively going to be ignoring his actions in regards to her so I can try and enjoy the Olicity reunion. 

I'm super shallow and rely on selective amnesia when it comes to my ships haha. I can easily pretend Oliver/Susan stupidity ever happen like I did Ray and Alsahim/LOA stupidity in season 3. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by LeighAn

[insomniadreams88]

Could you imagine if Oliver had another new LI after this and they had the "previous relationships" talk? "Well, I was engaged until I screwed that up. Then I killed my ex-fiancée's BF and got together with the reporter who was stalking me, manipulated my sister and (could have) exposed my Russian past because she was investigating me. Before that? Took my girlfriend's sister on a trip that ended with us 'dead' for five years. Oh yeah, she died and came back too. That other GF also died. Then there's the one night stand with my father's mistress, the Huntress, the woman who had my kid and had to move away..."

[Chaser]

I'm pretty sure 'selective amnesia' is the viewership method endorsed by the EPs. 

[LeighAn]

Just now, Chaser said:

I'm pretty sure 'selective amnesia' is the viewership method endorsed by the EPs. 

Haha well it explains why I can still watch this admittedly sometimes rubbish show haha. 

[Mellowyellow]

They are lucky there is fanfic! I go off and read fanfic and forget about 90% of the shit that annoys me.  

Hehe until I come back on this board and work myself to into a rage again. I need help!!!!!!

[tangerine95]

I don't think he's even really opening up to Susan so far,at least not in the way that Felicity needed him to open up to her and that caused them to break up. Like with Susan he just vaguely complains to her about his life without going into any specifics. He's done that before and sometimes with people he shouldn't have.The writers probably consider that opening up but for me that's not even close to what's actually his issue.

I don't feel the purpose of either the reporter or the bf is to teach Oliver or Felicity anything they can use in their relationship or about their own feelings for each other. I think they're there for plot reasons, because the writers don't know another way to stall and because it seems like they think a serious break up must include an attempt to move on.

[MaisyDaisy]

It makes me uncomfortable to be thinking that Felicity needs to see him with another woman to realise that she in fact wants him. Just like it makes me uncomfortable when people say that the ball is in Felicity's court and she needs to be the one that fights for him. I mean Oliver is the one that stuffed up, until we see growth from him, why should she take him back? Not because she is jealous or has a wake up call seeing him with Susan the shady reporter. 

I mean his new gf seemed like a bit of a bitch at the party and has already screwed Thea over, so how is this growth for Oliver? He seems to still be making stupid decisions with his dick. 

I have read the meta, but to me there is a hell of a lot of reaching in them.

[Guest]

I'm confused by the idea that Oliver opening up to Susan is somehow good for Olicity in the long run. That's running on the assumption that everything that happens somehow links to their relationship and huh? O/F are over (for how long IDK, could just be this season, could be permanent, who knows?) and I think they just want Oliver to be with someone else for now for plot. It doesn't have to be more meaningful than that.

LOL this is like the fern and all the light metaphors again. I'm all for wearing shipper goggles sometimes but permanent wearing hurts the eyes! ;P

BTW, when Susan develops real feelings for Oliver and keeps his secrets as a result (I'm assuming that's what SA means by the reporter not being Isabel 2.0), will Oliver just forgive her and they continue their relationship? "Yeah, you were shady as hell and investigated me for months but I forgive you, Susan. Love you!" LOL. There has to be something more to it otherwise Oliver really is a giant moron.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Guest

[calliope1975]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

The corollary, that this is a good thing for Felicity because she can get jealous of Susan and realize that she really does want to be with Oliver, is just as bad.  The reason that she split up with Oliver remains -- that he wasn't the partner she wanted who was really be a partner -- and unless Oliver grows and stops lying and keeping secrets, or Felicity decides she's willing to settle for what Oliver gives her rather than the relationship she really wants, they're just a break up waiting to happen again.  Can you tell that the idea of Oliver getting into a real relationship just having killed Billy makes me ragey?

I may reevaluate my feelings on Susan if once her digging/OQ is GA/etc all comes out, she responds with - you killed a good dude and came to bang me? Gross, GTFO. Since that won't happen, I have no idea what her purpose is other than being a ship stall. If she finds out Oliver is Bratva and wasn't on the island for 5 straight years, and then...keeps it to herself, that changes nothing. The audience already knew that back in S1. It doesn't appear she's going to cause OQ to grow a brain; if anything, he's regressing. So, what's the narrative point? That he was right to trust her? That's already been proven by the non-shady people Oliver has put his trust in over the years. Unless it leads to a Tony Stark I am Iron Man moment, I'm hard pressed to want to tune in for any of this. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by calliope1975

[ComicFan777]

At some point, I think Oliver will need to grow otherwise he will have the same issues with any serious relationship he has, whether it is with Felicity or with someone else.  Whether Susan is just a stall for something more or whatever, I'm still wondering at what point will the writers have Oliver grow in terms of learning how to have a healthy relationship...

Edited January 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[way2interested]

Just now, MaisyDaisy said:

It makes me uncomfortable to be thinking that Felicity needs to see him with another woman to realise that she in fact wants him. Just like it makes me uncomfortable when people say that the ball is in Felicity's court and she needs to be the one that fights for him. I mean Oliver is the one that stuffed up, until we see growth from him, why should she take him back? Not because she is jealous or has a wake up call seeing him with Susan the shady reporter. 

I mean his new gf seemed like a bit of a bitch at the party and has already screwed Thea over, so how is this growth for Oliver? He seems to still be making stupid decisions with his dick. 

I have read the meta, but to me there is a hell of a lot of reaching in them.

I disagree with others saying that as well, but I'd argue that her fighting for him and the ball being in her court don't necessarily mean the same things. Part of the way I see it is that it is in her court in the fact that she's the one who broke up with him so she's ultimately the one who has to take him back, even 501 and 505 kind of hinted that he would be up for getting back together and that her moving on is pretty much the reason he's moving on. Oliver still should be the one who has to grow/prove himself, but ultimately it would come down to whether Felicity decides to trust him again. How we would get to that point possibly in 5b, of if they do that, who knows? I hope they go that way, and I think they could, but they would actually have to write it.

[BunsenBurner]

My head canon is that all those scenes with OQ and Susan are actually Human Target. We are not being shown that it is him so they can surprise with this later.  After all she gave Human Target her number and not Oliver. We also find that OQ is just aimlessly walking around town every night and coming back to the lair to try and sleep. Just a guy not being able to handle losing the love of his life because he's such an idiot. If only.

[Sunshine]

I don't watch the show through shipper's goggles but I do agree that the ball is in Felicity's court.  Felicity walked away from the relationship with no discussion other than I can't do this.  She shut him down when he tried to talk.  He told her how important she was to him in the fake wedding.  She ended up telling him how she felt via her discussion with Cupid.  She still refused to actually talk to him.  Later in the lair she told him she loved him with all her being but she had already moved on.  She has given him no indication that she is willing to try again. Until she does, Oliver's hands are tied.  

Oliver's growth comes from being willing to attempt to move on instead of trying to force something with Felicity.  He's opening up and letting people in (newbies, Susan).  His choices might seem moronic but he's not cutting himself off.  Oliver Queen is starting to embrace Oliver as well as Green Arrow.  Expecting him to live like a monk for the rest of his life is ridiculous.   Felicity was in a relationship.  Like it or not this relationship started in 5.06/5.07 not 5.09.  We just saw very little of it on screen.  She gave him her phone number in 5.05.   I wondered if after Oliver slipped his body guards and they went for drinks at the end of 5.06/5.07 (don't remember) that they would have hooked up then.  She was certainly coming on to him earlier when he met her for drinks.  WM says they didn't hook up in 5.09. General audience probably thinks they did.  It'll be interesting to see if 5.12 plays out as Susan seeing the Bratva tatoo for the 1st time.    

I don't agree that Felicity has to see Oliver moving on to realize how she feels about him.  She knows how she feels about him.  WM did say in an interview either pre-season or early season that they were going to both have to realize what their relationship means to them.  Are they willing to fight for it?  I do think they are exploring that (badly) through other relationships.  As of 5.09 Felicity couldn't say she loved Malone.  She could barely call him her boyfriend.  She couldn't say the relationship was real.  Where would that relationship have been headed if he hadn't died?  She didn't show the faith in him doing his job that she has shown repeatedly in Oliver. She was still believing in Oliver and trying to protect Malone.   Even if Susan doesn't betray Oliver (and based on SA I'm thinking she doesn't) her investigating might cause him problems.  Here is another person he trusted when perhaps he shouldn't.  The trust between Oliver and Felicity has been there from the beginning, even when perhaps it shouldn't have been.  (He was telling her outrageous lies.)  Instead of asking him about his past she's continued to investigate him.  That's some solid footing for a relationship.  They chose a cop and a reporter as love interests for vigilantes!  How stupid and yet they haven't had it blow up in their faces (yet).   The point being Felicity's choice wasn't any smarter than Oliver's.           

Edited January 3, 2017 by Sunshine

[statsgirl]

Felicity walked away from Oliver because he broke his promise to her, that he was going to be honest with her and a real partner.  And then even after his lies about William came to light, he still unilaterally made the decision to send William away, taking the advice of Diggle and Mari, a woman he barely knows, and not talking to his fiance about it even though he had just got in trouble for that very thing.  He can tell her how important she is to him until he's blue in the face but until he starts backing up his words with actions, they're just words. And Oliver Queen  is very good with the smooth talk and lies.

I still say the ball is in Oliver's court to prove to Felicity that he's going to be the partner she wants and isn't going to lie to her any more or keep secrets from her. Opening up to Susan would accomplish the opposite "See Felicity, I can open up to a partner, I didn't keep any secrets from Susan".  If I were Felicity and heard that, I'd want to slug him.

The obvious thing would be to tell her his plans about Prometheus and other things and not do stuff like "Hey, Felicity, I'm off to break Diggle out of jail. No, you don't get to have any input into whether it''s a good idea or not. See ya!"  Oh, and he should check how she's doing after he just killed her boyfriend instead of getting his own needs met.  So based on the season so far, he's not doing too well in the "emotional growth needed to get Felicity back" department.

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I may reevaluate my feelings on Susan if once her digging/OQ is GA/etc all comes out, she responds with - you killed a good dude and came to bang me? Gross, GTFO. Since that won't happen, I have no idea what her purpose is other than being a ship stall. If she finds out Oliver is Bratva and wasn't on the island for 5 straight years, and then...keeps it to herself, that changes nothing. The audience already knew that back in S1. It doesn't appear she's going to cause OQ to grow a brain; if anything, he's regressing. So, what's the narrative point? That he was right to trust her? That's already been proven by the non-shady people Oliver has put his trust in over the years. Unless it leads to a Tony Stark I am Iron Man moment, I'm hard pressed to want to tune in for any of this. 

At least Billy had sort of a point above stalling Oliver and Felicity getting together again, which was to be killed by Oliver and create all that anguish for him.  So far Susan has no point other than to show how stupid Oliver can still be.  All those years away and then four more fighting bad guys and he still has no sense of who to trust and who not?

I think Isabel redeemed herself as a character when she revealed that she had slept with Robert and turned evil but it sounds like they're going to go the opposite route with Susan.  Which kind of makes her useless as a character other than to tie Bratva flashbacks to present day Bratva but they already did that with much less trouble in season 1. 

The twist I'd really like is if Susan turned out to be Talia but no such luck.

Edited January 3, 2017 by statsgirl

[Mellowyellow]

This is going to be a really bad season for shippers isn't it?

In season 2 we got the mansion ILY

Season 3 I loved but even if you hated it you got ep 20.

Season 4 they were cute and happy for about 7 eps.

There is nothing good for shippers this season. It's a never ending void of suck!!!!!!

[ComicFan777]

TBH, I'm not sure what more Oliver and Felicity needed to talk about before she broke up with him.  Oliver spent most of 4.15 explaining himself.  Felicity also told him that she didn't think she could be with him because of his lack of inclusion and always going at it alone when things get tough.  I am not sure what else is there to really discuss before breaking up.  

I think that Oliver moving on and opening up to newbies and Susan is entirely different than showing Felicity that he can include her when things get tough.  In 5.04, he kept her out of the loop about his plans to save Digg because he knew she didn't agree with him.  In 5.09, he went after Prometheus alone without the team and ended up accidentally killing Malone - the team might have been able to spot Prometheus' trick instead of playing on Oliver's emotions.  As far as we've seen, Oliver still hasn't shared everything with Susan yet either...so not much has changed.  Personally, I think Oliver has a ways to go to show that he has grown. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[insomniadreams88]

18 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Felicity walked away from Oliver because he broke his promise to her, that he was going to be honest with her and a real partner.  And then even after his lies about William came to light, he still unilaterally made the decision to send William away, taking the advice of Diggle and Mari, a woman he barely knows, and not talking to his fiance about it even though he had just got in trouble for that very thing.  He can tell her how important she is to him until he's blue in the face but until he starts backing up his words with actions, they're just words. And Oliver Queen  is very good with the smooth talk and lies.

I still say the ball is in Oliver's court to prove to Felicity that he's going to be the partner she wants and isn't going to lie to her any more or keep secrets from her. Opening up to Susan would accomplish the opposite "See Felicity, I can open up to a partner, I didn't keep any secrets from Susan".  If I were Felicity and heard that, I'd want to slug him.

The obvious thing would be to tell her his plans about Prometheus and other things and not do stuff like "Hey, Felicity, I'm off to break Diggle out of jail. No, you don't get to have any input into whether it''s a good idea or not. See ya!"  Oh, and he should check how she's doing after he just killed her boyfriend instead of getting his own needs met.  So based on the season so far, he's not doing too well in the "emotional growth needed to get Felicity back" department.

Yep. Especially since Felicity proved she could be trusted for years. She stood by his side after all the crap he pulled. He could have ruined her career when he made her his EA. If Ray hadn't noticed her, how long would she have been stuck in Tech whatever that store was? She went away with him after she thought he left her in a dungeon to die.

And then he still chose to make the choices he has starting with 408. And then he told Samantha all their secrets. I doubt he even asked them. That could have backfired. So many of Oliver's decisions can backfire every time he makes them. 

504 still annoys me because Felicity had, what, 5 seconds between finding out Oliver and Lyla were breaking Diggle out of prison and being excluded from it? Did they think she'd turn them in if they told her about their plans after that? Did they think she'd sabotage their plans once Oliver was in the prison? And in the end, she was right to question that move. Plus, Oliver lied again when he broke into PT. He hasn't learned anything. 

Really, I feel like his relationship with Susan should make Felicity feel like she made the right decision to not be with him. If he opens up about Russia to a reporter after Felicity mentioned in 502 that he doesn't talk about Russia...

There's stalling a ship and then there's ruining it. Sometimes I feel like the writers don't know the difference. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

22 hours ago, Lily-n11 said:

I have been thinking about this: What if it turns out that Oliver did in fact not ignore Thea's warning about the reporter. What if he was keeping her close to keep an eye on what she's doing. And what if he's going to be prepared for the betrayal that might be coming. Would that make him and his actions up until now less stupid? I'm undecided. I mean it would be different than the Isabell thing from season 2, which hit him totally out of nowhere. But so far I have not seen a hint on him not trusting the reporter since her phone number was handed to him.

This has been my hope since the beginning but I'm losing faith daily, LOL. The stupidest part for me was going to her after he killed Billy telling her how he destroys the lives of the people he loves..she probably saw on the news the next day that Oliver's ex fiancée's boyfriend was killed by the GA just before he came to her looking for comfort..if he suspected her giving her clues he not only is a Bratva captain but also the GA might have been something to avoid.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think in episode 5 Felicity gave him signs that she wasn't done with him forever, or at least that's the strong impression I got in the scene where they talked in the office but Oliver seemed okay with moving on and shortly after he started whatever he is doing with the reporter. Now I get that Oliver probably needs her to spell it out for him or he doesn't get it but I also think if he can't even try to be there for her now he isn't worth the effort. I look at him now and I don't see him caring about Felicity, not even as a friend.

[ComicFan777]

Yeah, I've been thinking about Oliver's weird emotional journey this year and there's a big difference between moving on and moving forward.  I had hoped that Oliver would move forward to become a better person, but as far as I can see, it looks like he is just moving on (and sorta backwards, I suppose) and leaving his friends that he once considered family behind.  It's disappointing and not the kind of journey I would have expected after seeing the Oliver of season 4A.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

The obvious thing would be to tell her his plans about Prometheus and other things and not do stuff like "Hey, Felicity, I'm off to break Diggle out of jail. No, you don't get to have any input into whether it''s a good idea or not. See ya!"  Oh, and he should check how she's doing after he just killed her boyfriend instead of getting his own needs met.  So based on the season so far, he's not doing too well in the "emotional growth needed to get Felicity back" department

The show has been careful to stress that Oliver will not lie to Felicity ever again, even when she's accused him of lying to her.  Not telling her about his plan to break Diggle out is a fine line, but at least I think Oliver and the show thinks he's been truthful and he was upfront about Billy's death, so from that standpoint, he has grown a little.  But it's not enough for a reunion.    

[ComicFan777]

I do think it's funny and sad that it counts as growth when Oliver didn't lie to Felicity about Billy.  To me, it was just human decency.

[statsgirl]

I'll give you that it's growth that he didn't lie about killing Billy, although cowardice has never really been a facet of post-island Oliver.  (Not to take anything away from Oliver telling Felicity right away but unlike hiding William, it would have been hard to keep killing Billy a secret since the police would be doing their own investigation on finding Billy dressed as Prometheus with arrow holes in him.)

But not giving her a chance to have any input into breaking Diggle out shows he  hasn't really moved beyond his "keep Felicity out of important decisions" that he initiates (as opposed to getting a new team which she initiated).

Given that the promo shows Diggle saying that he's going to stay in jail and fight the charges, I wonder if the show will address that it seems Felicity was right to find another way than breaking him out.  Somehow I doubt it.

[insomniadreams88]

35 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

The show has been careful to stress that Oliver will not lie to Felicity ever again, even when she's accused him of lying to her.  Not telling her about his plan to break Diggle out is a fine line, but at least I think Oliver and the show thinks he's been truthful and he was upfront about Billy's death, so from that standpoint, he has grown a little.  But it's not enough for a reunion.    

 

24 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I do think it's funny and sad that it counts as growth when Oliver didn't lie to Felicity about Billy.  To me, it was just human decency.

What does it say about Oliver and how he's being written that it was even a possibility that he might lie about what happened to Billy? 

(And if he did, the show might have written it as, "Well, he didn't want Felicity to be hurting any more than she already is with Billy dead and that wasn't something she needed to know, so he was right to not tell her the truth." Then Prometheus probably would have told her - after everyone, including Chase, knew - before doing something that would draw everyone's focus.)

[way2interested]

Telling her that Billy died I think is human decency, but going into detail and saying he was the one who ultimately did it (instead of being technical and saying "I couldn't save him" or "Prometheus killed him" or even "Billy got caught in the crossfire as we were fighting") I kind of think goes beyond being decent and goes into emotional vulnerability despite personal difficulty, which I think was at least better than him not telling her (since I didn't think he would go out and lie about it, just not go into such detail that he did).

Yeah, it's not enough for a reunion just yet. They still need some big actual positive moment before reunion becomes potentially incoming.

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

But not giving her a chance to have any input into breaking Diggle out shows he  hasn't really moved beyond his "keep Felicity out of important decisions" that he initiates (as opposed to getting a new team which she initiated).

What input was he supposed to let her have? The plan was Lyla's, not his. He chose to go along with it, she didn't. 

[statsgirl]

I agree, it does go into emotional vulnerability which is why I'll give Oliver credit for it.

But it's also the sort of thing that will come out inevitably in the police reports so unless Oliver takes off the tape and the recording and the Prometheus costume, it's going to come out that the Green Arrow killed Billy. It's not something he could hide.

Quote

What input was he supposed to let her have?

Sober second thought.

Lyla wasn't thinking straight because she was so emotionally involved.  They needed to think it through how best to help Diggle.

Edited January 3, 2017 by statsgirl

[ComicFan777]

Didn't Oliver want Felicity to help, but didn't tell her about the save-Diggle plan? 

When he went to PT, I think it became Arrow business that Felicity needed to be aware of because Felicity was going to send the team to check it out.  Had she sent the team out before asking Oliver to do it, the newbies could have gotten hurt because Felicity was out of the loop.  It became her business to know when he was stealing stuff from her company.

Edited January 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[apinknightmare]

30 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Sober second thought.

Lyla wasn't thinking straight because she was so emotionally involved.  They needed to think it through.

But...Lyla was present and heard Felicity's objections. She decided to break Diggle out anyway.

Plus, Felicity wasn't advocating for them to find Digg's accusers and get him out the right way, her thought was to let him stay there if that's where he wanted to be. So it's not like she was making some other strategic plan that Oliver and Lyla just chose to ignore. 

29 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Didn't Oliver want Felicity to help, but didn't tell her about the save-Diggle plan? 

Nope, he told her they were breaking him out of prison.

Edited January 3, 2017 by apinknightmare

[ComicFan777]

The thing is, although Oliver and Lyla may have told Felicity that they had a plan to get Diggle out of prison at the time they were going to execute the plan, they didn't provide details that I think she was owed.  At the very least, as her friends, I think they should have told her their plan of stealing from her company - that was the point at which she was upset for being kept out of the loop.

Edited January 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[insomniadreams88]

41 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Plus, Felicity wasn't advocating for them to find Digg's accusers and get him out the right way, her thought was to let him stay there if that's where he wanted to be. So it's not like she was making some other strategic plan that Oliver and Lyla just chose to ignore. 

I wonder if the point of that - and no one subsequently suggesting proving his innocence while he was stuck being a fugitive - is so that now there can be a "Wow, why didn't any of us think about doing that/finding the real guilty people?" moment. Or just to connect Chase to the storyline. Probably the latter since he's a series regular. 

[apinknightmare]

16 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

that was the point at which she was upset for being kept out of the loop.

She never indicated that she was upset about being kept out of the loop or that Oliver and Lyla stole from Palmer Tech. She called Oliver out about breaking into Palmer Tech, he told that he wasn't going to lie to her about it, she proceeded to lay into him about making decisions for Diggle by breaking him out when he didn't want to be broken out. That was where her anger stemmed from.

Diggle is Lyla's husband. Felicity no more gets a say in what Lyla does to help him than Lyla would get a say in what Oliver and Felicity decide to do to help one another. She told Oliver she would pull her own guys from the field to help, and Oliver said that if she got caught then both John Jr's parents would be locked up, so he helped her himself. 

16 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I wonder if the point of that - and no one subsequently suggesting proving his innocence while he was stuck being a fugitive - is so that now there can be a "Wow, why didn't any of us think about doing that/finding the real guilty people?" moment. Or just to connect Chase to the storyline. Probably the latter since he's a series regular. 

I think the only reason they didn't address it is because when they were laying out the season, they decided that Diggle's prison storyline wasn't going to come until the back half of the season, so...no one was going to address it until the back half of the season. 

[ComicFan777]

I do think that at least a part of Felicity's anger stemmed from him keeping her out of the loop when they talked after PT:
Felicity: How was Palmer Tech? Before you answer, you should consider that your phone has GPS, and if you were thinking about lying, I do admire your consistency.
Oliver: I wasn't looping you in after you made it clear you didn't approve of the decision.       

We can agree to disagree.

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, ComicFan777 said:

Oliver: I wasn't looping you in after you made it clear you didn't approve of the decision.       

I wonder if something similar is going to come up with Felicity's "darker" storyline. Maybe she turns to other people because she and Oliver have different points of view on what should and should not be done - especially if she feels like he's not giving Prometheus the focus he should. So she won't be keeping things from the team as so much as she'll be "not looping them in because of differing opinions." If they do that, they'll probably feel like they'll avoid having to spend any time dealing with any fallout from any separation of Felicity and the team. They wrapped up the 504 conflict within that episode, after all. 

[apinknightmare]

I know what she said, I watched the scene before I commented on it. 

Quote

We can agree to disagree.

And yes, we can!

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

Plus, Felicity wasn't advocating for them to find Digg's accusers and get him out the right way, her thought was to let him stay there if that's where he wanted to be. So it's not like she was making some other strategic plan that Oliver and Lyla just chose to ignore. 

That was her first reaction in the five seconds that Oliver gave to decide.  Then she had no say.

It's a complicated issue.  Should Diggle get the right to decide his own fate?  Not according to Lyla and Oliver because Diggle was reacting from an emotional place.  But so was Lyla, who didn't want her husband in a dangerous situation and to be separated from her and JJ.  And so was Oliver who just wanted his old friend and his old team back.  None of the three of them were thinking with their heads, just their hearts.

Given that the promo for the next episode shows Diggle saying that he wants to stay in jail and fight the charge legally (topic!), we can assume that breaking him out jail was the wrong thing to do (and apparently done for plot so he could bond with WD).  So maybe Lyla and Oliver should have talked it over with Felicity before breaking Diggle out.

But to go back to the question we're discussing, which is whether Oliver is now willing to include Felicity in his big decisions and justify her getting back with him should she decide to do so,  the fact that it was Lyla's plan is tangential.  Oliver not only decided to go all in without giving Felicity a chance to weigh in, he then proceeded to steal from her company without telling her.  I'd say that's a 'no'.

eta:  the more I think about it, that because Felicity was opposed to breaking Diggle out of jail Oliver thought that it was okay to steal from Palmer Tech and not tell her, the angrier I get. It's one thing to steal from strangers who wouldn't understand how you need to save Ray Palmer, it's another thing entirely to steal from your "partner's" company because she doesn't agree with what you're doing.

Edited January 4, 2017 by statsgirl

[insomniadreams88]

43 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

eta:  the more I think about it, that because Felicity was opposed to breaking Diggle out of jail Oliver thought that it was okay to steal from Palmer Tech and not tell her, the angrier I get. It's one thing to steal from strangers who wouldn't understand how you need to save Ray Palmer, it's another thing entirely to steal from your "partner's" company.

Yeah, that fact actually reminded me of how, in S4, they made a whole thing about how Felicity had money because Ray gave her his company and Oliver didn't. He bought that truck for the fingerprints. ("We have money now.") Then Felicity used PT to back his campaign. She bought the building so they'd have the space for the lair/for Oliver's campaign office. He needed her money to buy drugs. Etc. Honestly, after that, he should have went to her to tell her they needed something from PT and he didn't want to take it without telling her, not steal it. 

Which makes me wonder. Is the show saying Oliver has money again? Is Felicity using whatever money she still has to fund the team? How is that working in S5? Especially since it looks like no one else on the team has a job. (Please tell me if I missed something in the dialogue at some point.) How are any of them paying for anything? I guess Paul still has a job, so it was okay that Curtis didn't anymore? What about Rory? Rene? That could be why they made Tina a detective - to give her a job so she could afford to move cities. 

[LeighAn]

Well a quick Google search informed me that Mayors of big cities make between $100,000-$200,000 a year so Olivers not living large rich but I assumed hes certainly comfortable and living above the average salary. 

Which does make me wonder why he won't get his own apartment and stop living in the bunker? Gee CW.

[statsgirl]

Oliver has his mayor's salary now, and presumably Thea has hers as his chief of staff even though she's no longer on the team.  And the mayor's office is funding Lance now too.  That seems to be it in terms of jobs other than Rory's metalwork.

That's a good point about Felicity doing all the funding last season and getting in trouble from the Palmer Tech board for spending too much on Oliver's campaign.  I guess it doesn't pay to look too deeply into this show because it looks like Oliver's idea of partnership is "what's yours is mine, and what's mine ... goes to my current project/lady".  Run, Felicity, run.  And that's not even looking at Oliver accidentally killing her boyfriend.

[AyChihuahua]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:55 PM, way2interested said:

Maybe it will just be rushed and awkward, which will then make me ultimately wonder if they were strong-armed to add her like they were Roy.

I 100% think they were ordered to add her. I think they knew prior to the season, though, thus LL's new final words.

Edited January 4, 2017 by AyChihuahua

[AyChihuahua]

On 1/2/2017 at 3:08 PM, ComicFan777 said:

I don't think that Oliver suspects anything.  Out of all the people to pick, he went to Susan for comfort after killing his ex-fiancee's boyfriend - why go to her when he is at one of the lowest points in his life if he didn't trust her?  I think it's just going to be his pelvic sorcery that keeps him out of too much trouble.

Yeah, I fully admit that this show has zero character consistency, but NO WAY would Oliver have gone to her at one of the lowest points of his whole life if he were just playing her.

[Sunshine]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Which makes me wonder. Is the show saying Oliver has money again? Is Felicity using whatever money she still has to fund the team? How is that working in S5? Especially since it looks like no one else on the team has a job. (Please tell me if I missed something in the dialogue at some point.) How are any of them paying for anything? I guess Paul still has a job, so it was okay that Curtis didn't anymore? What about Rory? Rene? That could be why they made Tina a detective - to give her a job so she could afford to move cities. 

Honestly, I don't think the show actually cares about any of those issues.  

Tina may be a detective but I'll be surprised if the story spends any time on it.  It, along with her ex-military background is just a set-up for why she already has the skills to be a vigilante.  She's supposed to be the best ever.  LOL!  I think establishing her as a female badass is the priority.         

[AyChihuahua]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The show has been careful to stress that Oliver will not lie to Felicity ever again, even when she's accused him of lying to her.  Not telling her about his plan to break Diggle out is a fine line...    

Omitting a highly relevant fact so that the entire narrative is false is lying. 

[Chaser]

41 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I 100% think they were ordered to add her. I think they knew prior to the season, though, thus LL's new final words.

We know they filmed multiple versions, it definitely looks like they knew it was a possibility at least. I wonder when they added that scene tho. If KC found out she was in the grave and they were potentially bringing on a new BC in the same meeting.

[tangerine95]

Whoever had the idea of adding yet another BC, I think it will prove to be a mistake like the rest of the newbies mostly seem to be. I don't understand the logic of thinking doing 3 versions of the same character in the span of seasons 2-5 is smart.4 versions if you count Evelyn pretending to be BC for one ep. Especially since those storyline never seemed to be very popular from what I've noticed at least and even worse to do it on Arrow again where they struggled with including this character for seasons and where new characters especially masks tend to not be accepted well.They could have just added Tina as another comic book character if they really wanted another female mask, no need to saddle her with the whole BC thing.

Edited January 4, 2017 by tangerine95

[AyChihuahua]

29 minutes ago, Chaser said:

We know they filmed multiple versions, it definitely looks like they knew it was a possibility at least. I wonder when they added that scene tho. If KC found out she was in the grave and they were potentially bringing on a new BC in the same meeting.

Oh man, don't make me feel bad for Katie Cassidy! (I actually do feel bad for her, but also she shouldn't have taken the role bc she's terrible at action, so I'm torn.)

[Chaser]

I don't feel bad for her. The role wasn't what she signed up for. The show clearly wanted her out. She could have ditched. She didn't. If she got this info early and still asked to come back....nope. No sympathy from me.

I realize this sounds super harsh, but I'm watching S2 Laurel and she just really sucks.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Chaser

[sadfangirl]

30 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I don't feel bad for her. The role wasn't what she signed up for. The show clearly wanted her out. She could have ditched. She didn't. If she got this info early and still asked to come back....nope. No sympathy from me.

I think she didn't want "fired" again, after her exit from Supernatural.

I have quite a few friends who watch the show but are not part of the fandom and not one of them likes her. Everyone was glad to see her go - she served no purpose and they had to shoehorn her into stories.

As for her knowing they were replacing her again, no offence, but what did she expect to happen? If even 10% of the backstage gossip I've heard is true then I don't think she's missed by either cast or crew.  Look at the writing for her in S5 - everything is a slap in the face (horrible statue, O running away from her again, baiting her fans) - they're not even being subtle. 

[dtissagirl]

9 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Well a quick Google search informed me that Mayors of big cities make between $100,000-$200,000 a year so Olivers not living large rich but I assumed hes certainly comfortable and living above the average salary.

He's definitely saving a pretty penny by living in his ex-girlfriend's office building's basement.

I can't wait for Susan to complain that they only ever go to her place. Comedy gold!

[Trisha]

From the new TV Line gallery "Winter TV Preview: Returning Favourites"

Quote

Among new faces, Talia al Ghul plays a "critical part" in unveiling the Prometheus mystery, while SCPD Detective Tina Boland will form a connection with Oliver, seeing as "she has been through her own hell, her own sort of island."

Sigh.