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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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bijoux

bijoux

50 minutes ago, looptab said:

Lol at that writer's digs. 'There's going to be divisive moments (read Felicity) but Thea is the best character ever."Haha, What's the correlation?

I mean, I love Thea, I'm more than happy if she gets to shine, I'm just one of those sillies who expects coherence into a written paragraph. 

I take umbrage with Felicity being more assertive about having her voice heard in the lair. When hasn't she been assertive about that?

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

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EmeraldArcher

EmeraldArcher

18 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I take umbrage with Felicity being more assertive about having her voice heard in the lair. When hasn't she been assertive about that?

Agreed. From her very first day in the lair as part of the team, she's been assertive. Overriding the locks and challenging Oliver about hurting a single father? Pressuring Oliver to think about the good he could do for the city beyond crossing names off his list? Even changing Oliver's computer setup while he was unconscious and before he asked for her help?

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kes0704

kes0704

46 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I HATED the changes they made on HOUSE and kept waiting for them to change things back. When it became clear that was never happening I lost a lot of enthusiasm for the show.

I drifted away from HOUSE after the newbies came because I didn't care about them, no matter how hard they tried.  

Admittedly, I'm more invested in Arrow but I may need to reassess if it becomes yet another season of "Felicity and Diggle have awesome storylines coming up, just watch" to " we ran out of time to do their stories justice".

My optimism level for how good the show will be has dropped from year to year.  It  is currently set at "super low" for S5 but I really hope to be surprised.  

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thegirlsleuth

thegirlsleuth

I was trying to hold off the negativity about the season I was feeling, but with the comments from the reviewers with screeners, it's full force. I had thought perhaps they were just not talking about the parts I loved--Felicity and Diggle, as well as Olicity--but I really think there's nothing there.  If they were saying "Felicity and Diggle have Flashpoint changes we can't tell you about, but they're exciting!" I'd be hyped, but they aren't.  I'm glad the fight scenes are improving, but I'm wary of how they are going to handle the evolution of Oliver in the Bratva flashbacks and I have no interest in the newbies, as adorable as the actors are in real life. And they are really working to make sure that we know Oliver and Felicity's romantic relationship is really, really super dead--like no hope. 

I got the sense that Warner Brothers was happy to shove as much intellectual property as possible into the show, but I really wonder if the CW is willing to let Arrow take the lower ratings if they can up the male demo. It was Arrow and Flash that were responsible for the CW no longer being a "girl network", and they might want to kill the movement towards Arrow's larger female audience.  

I'm willing to watch, but I have a couple of deal breakers in mind that if they come to pass, I will walk away. I hope they don't--I like hanging around and chatting with all of you. 

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quarks

quarks

So I guess once again I'll be the outlier here - the whole thing about Arrow getting nice and grim and bloody again has completely cheered me up and made me more enthusiastic about the premiere. That's kinda what I tuned in for. Yeah, I can tell I'm probably going to say "Needs more Diggle," but let's face it, I've said that about the majority of Arrow episodes anyway, so that's nothing new. 

Plus, so far no one with a screener has complained about the flashbacks, so that seems like a small plus.

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

I'm pretty happy that the fight scenes seem to be good/gritty again. I hope these reviewers aren't just saying that. I haven't really been wowed by any stunt since the end of s2 so I need it to be something impressive.

I don't have much of an issue with less Diggle/Felicity screentime in 501. YET. I expected it, mostly because Diggle is still in the army at this point and also because they're introducing new characters/plots or whatever. However, if this is setting up a season long precedent, they can keep it. I'm sorry but I'm really not going to start caring about all these new characters going into s5. I'm here for the characters already on the show and that's the only reason I'm sticking around. If they remove what I enjoy entirely, there's no need for me to continue tbh. I'm not here to sit through a reset or reboot.

But as I said before, I'll wait and see for a few episodes and then decide. But I am wary and I understand why others are too. The writers have a lot to prove and I don't have faith in them anyway so...We'll see. 

Edited by Guest
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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I can take less Diggle and Felicity in the first episode as long as BFS is telling the truth that their big stories start in the second.  But since the newbies all arrive in ep 5x0w, I'm not  holding my breath.

3 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

...maybe Felicity's new boyfriend is Tom Felton who plays a CSI guy for the Central City police dept.  Felicity goes and visits him and runs into Barry who's only care in the world is wooing Iris.  Felicity talks to Barry about everyone on Team Arrow which makes Barry realize how much his poor decision has affected everyone else's happiness well outside of himself.

Not going to happen because it would me that Barry Sue would actually have to be held accountable for his actions.  Not in Berlanti and AK-verse.

2 hours ago, lexicon said:

I HATED the changes they made on HOUSE and kept waiting for them to change things back. When it became clear that was never happening I lost a lot of enthusiasm for the show.

I have no idea why showrunners equate evolving as a show with almost total destruction of everything that went before. Instead of a few changes that feel like a breath of fresh air, it usually means I lose most of what I loved about a show to begin with. So less Cameron and Chase and more Foreman along with a whole bunch of annoying newbies...no thank you.

Can you tell I'm still bitter about House?

No one is more bitter than me.  I'm one of the people who organized sending rubber ducklings to the studio and I wait for David Shore to come back to his home town so I can tell him exactly what I think of him.  My only solace is that Jennifer Morrison and Jesse Spencer are the ones with the big shows now.

But the reason House took the route that it did was because Shore fell in love with the newbies, his shiny new toys (and Katie Jacobs saw herself as Cuddy).  I"m hoping that someone among the Arrow EPs recognized that the bedrock of Arrow is Oliver, Diggle and Felicity and sticks to that.

Edited by statsgirl
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looptab

looptab

(edited)
5 hours ago, bijoux said:

I take umbrage with Felicity being more assertive about having her voice heard in the lair. When hasn't she been assertive about that?

I don't understand when she's allowed to be assertive and when she's inserting herself in things that don't concern her. Gah, so confusing keeping up!

Edited by looptab
Should check before posting!
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EmeraldArcher

EmeraldArcher

(edited)
1 hour ago, quarks said:

So I guess once again I'll be the outlier here - the whole thing about Arrow getting nice and grim and bloody again has completely cheered me up and made me more enthusiastic about the premiere. That's kinda what I tuned in for. Yeah, I can tell I'm probably going to say "Needs more Diggle," but let's face it, I've said that about the majority of Arrow episodes anyway, so that's nothing new. 

Plus, so far no one with a screener has complained about the flashbacks, so that seems like a small plus.

I'm right there with you, @quarks!  I'm pretty happy the stunts are an area of focused improvement, and I'm so excited for the premiere.

I also was considerably cheered by the non-spoilers review of the premiere posted in the Spoilers area, specifically this passage:

Quote

You'll notice that not a lot has been said -- either in interviews and ads or in this review -- about Diggle and Felicity, the unit that fans on social media have dubbed "OTA" (Original Team Arrow). That's for a simple reson: this is a non-spoiler review and there is very little about either Diggle or Felicity's roles in the premiere that can be said without spoiling something. They probably get a little bit less screen time than they usually do (let's ballpark it at about 20% less), with the episode being very action-driven and Oliver-centric.

What's fair to say is that we don't yet know very much about Diggle's current headspace following the events of season four, and that Felicity is still very much the same Felicity that she's been the last couple of years, if a little more assertive about having her voice heard in the Lair.

And Olicity? Well, let's just say that Diggle asks about it, and Oliver's answer is fairly telling.

There are a few moments that will be deeply divisive -- an observation that showrunner Marc Guggenheim met with "So, in other words, it's an episode of Arrow, then?" -- but they're very much in service of the bigger picture.

And that's the theme of the premiere, it seems: they're building something.

I'm glad to hear that Diggle and Felicity only have slightly reduced screen time in the premiere and that discussing them is too difficult due to inadvertently spoiling something about them.  That doesn't sound to me like they've been forgotten about at all, and I appreciate that he credits the episode as being very Oliver-centric as the reason they have about 20% less screen time than usual. It makes sense that the premiere will be Oliver-centric, as this will be our first glimpse at Oliver juggling being a mayor of a major US city that's falling apart with being the Green Arrow.

When the news of Felicity having a boyfriend first broke, I admit I started dreading the season because I LOVE Olicity when they're great.  But, I'm convinced it's Barry, and he doesn't count.  With this reviewer's statement that they're building something, and the guy from GreenArrowTV saying that the theme seems to be getting back everything dear that was lost last year (paraphrased), I'm optimistic that Oliver's fairly telling answer to Diggle's Olicity question is that he's still in love with Felicity and wants to win her back.  

So, I'm looking forward to gritty, brutal fights; awesome stunts; Arrow being Oliver-centric; Diggle learning to forgive himself; Felicity learning to forgive herself and tackling her next professional challenge (whatever that might be); Prometheus; an Olicity slow burn towards reconciliation and staying together; Thea being interesting again; the 100th episode; Russia flashbacks; and NO Laurel!  Oh, and the return of Oliver's navy pea coat, per SA's tweet!

Edited by EmeraldArcher
Stupid typos.
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EmeraldArcher

EmeraldArcher

(edited)
2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Whenever I get annoyed or feel negative, I just remind myself that Laurel is dead and Malcolm isn't around.

Right?!  Those two things alone have the potential to make this season the very best yet! :-) 

I haven't yet been interested in the newbies ("the recruits"), but that's likely because my experience with an expanded team is limited to Sara, Roy, Thea, and Laurel.  Sara made sense and wasn't there very long, I love Roy and he was recruited by Oliver, and Thea was adorable as Speedy last year and had training.  Laurel was the one who pissed me off because everything about her joining the team was wrong: her motivation, her lack of training, her forcing herself into Oliver's life, EVERYTHING.  At least these newbs are inspired to help their city in the aftermath of DD's attack, and their lack of training is addressed.  Best of all, there isn't Oliver-related baggage.

Edited by EmeraldArcher
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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2 hours ago, quarks said:

So I guess once again I'll be the outlier here - the whole thing about Arrow getting nice and grim and bloody again has completely cheered me up and made me more enthusiastic about the premiere. That's kinda what I tuned in for. Yeah, I can tell I'm probably going to say "Needs more Diggle," but let's face it, I've said that about the majority of Arrow episodes anyway, so that's nothing new. 

Plus, so far no one with a screener has complained about the flashbacks, so that seems like a small plus.

The dark, gritty, Nolanesque version of Arrow is what sold me on the show. I was very unhappy with the shift to super powers, especially how it impacted the stunts/fight sequences.  I'm happy to hear the back to basics/street level fighting and i really hope it's not BS.

However, I'm hesitant to fully embrace S5 as dark and gritty S1 level show when we have Ragman (mystical clothes) and Mr. Fantastic  (super suit) on the show. It's great that Wild Dog, Artemis, Arrow, Spartan and Speedy (if she ever suits up again) are all non powered fighters.  Even if i resent the sheer number of masks (stupid WB, can't you stick to screwing up the movies?) 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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I don't think they're that random. For instance Wendy Stanzler got a lot of Sara/Canary related episodes. 

205 League of Assains 

213 Heir to the Demon

302 Sara

She also directed

322 This is Your Sword

402 Restoration 

And her first episode was 112 - Vertigo

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Mrs. de Winter

Mrs. de Winter

Positioning the Bratva as greater than Poppy does not necessarily instill great confidence.  I mean overcoming a bar that low doesn't seem like that big a deal.  Or may be that was the plan - make last season's flashbacks so ridiculously bad that anything this season will seem freaking fabulous.

If the new masks are the equivalent of the newbies on House - then who are they replacing?  In that parallel wouldn't Felicity and Digg be Cuddy (I mean no disrespect to Felicity here) and Wilson?  Either way I am impressed that GB and SA could take a show that had so many good things and find one of the two worst things about it and focus on that.  Sigh.

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HighHopes

HighHopes

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

Has to be Felicity related, she got the Loft.

.... Please don't be a nursery. 

Honestly if it's a nursery I'm turning the show off (that's if I'm actually watching. Haven't decided yet). 

I'm going with the boyfriend being there. He will be off screen and the editing will make us think it's Oliver and then nope! New Boyfriend! 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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2 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Has to be Felicity related, she got the Loft.

.... Please don't be a nursery. 

Yeah it has to be Felicity or Diggle since they seem to be most affected by Flashpoint. My guess would be it's the Boyfriend reveal. Maybe it really is Barry? Or better yet, it's Eddie ?

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HighHopes

HighHopes

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Yeah it has to be Felicity or Diggle since they seem to be most affected by Flashpoint. My guess would be it's the Boyfriend reveal. Maybe it really is Barry? Or better yet, it's Eddie ?

Barry being the BF is gross considering he would have some knowledge that he isn't the Barry Felicity knows. So being in a relationship with her when he isn't the guy she is actually dating is wrong on so many levels. 

 Also he's asking out Iris in 3x01. So he goes from asking out Iris on Tuesday to dating/sleeping with Felicity on a Wednesday?? 

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Mrs. de Winter

Mrs. de Winter

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

My guess would be it's the Boyfriend reveal. Maybe it really is Barry? Or better yet, it's Eddie ?

Eddie!  I will not want nice things because this show does not give them.  I will not want nice things because this show does not give them. 

Sigh - now I want this nice, nice thing. 

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quarks

quarks

13 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

 Also he's asking out Iris in 3x01. So he goes from asking out Iris on Tuesday to dating/sleeping with Felicity on a Wednesday?? 

Insert standard disclaimer of, well, this is the CW.....

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HighHopes

HighHopes

13 minutes ago, Chaser said:

My theory about Barry being the BF involves Barry not knowing about that change until such and such happens. 

I think spoilers have indicated that Barry is aware of the FP and has been for a while (before the premiere airs). But I'm not following the Flash spoilers that closely, so I could be mistaken. 

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

Would a boyfriend reveal at the loft be all that surprising? We all know it's coming. And Matt from TV Line was actually at the con when the boyfriend news was first revealed so he's known about it for ages. I can't see how that would surprise him tbh. 

Edited by Guest
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)
10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Would a boyfriend reveal at the loft be all that surprising? We all know it's coming. And Matt from TV Line was actually at the con when it was first revealed so he's known about it for ages. I can't see how that would surprise him tbh. 

A Boyfriend in and of itself no. However, if the boyfriend is supposed to be "shocking" and part of Flashpoint I could see it. By shocking I mean Barry or Eddie/Cooper/Tommy/Cold (since they are dead). Or maybe she's dating Ragman or DA Chase/Prometheus  (probably).  Hell, maybe she's dating Roy?! 

It's going to end up being something related to Felicity or Diggle since those seem to be the big spoilers. The only two spoilery things we know for Felicity in 501 is that she has a boyfriend and something Flashpoint related.

All we know for Diggle in the Spoiler arena is that something family related is affected by Flashpoint.

So unless Diggle is dating Felicity or Felicity is babysitting Twin Babies Sarah and Connor (please don't gender swap!) It seems that a "shocking" Flashpoint Boyfriend reveal is the most likely.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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Guest

Guest

Ah. In that case it's probably someone we already know or someone who is introduced earlier in the episode who seems random at first but then we find out he's Felicity's boyfriend. I'm guessing the new detective, who I don't want but ugh. It's all ugh anyway so what difference does it make? Haha.

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Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

Just my two cents, but if the surprise IS who Felicity's boyfriend is, I can't see it being a new character.  We'd see that coming miles away.  I think it has to be someone the audience is familiar with but is not at all expecting to see, for whatever reason.   And, given that the last two seasons they managed to pull off season premiere endings that no one saw coming, I have to think this is going to truly be a shock.  

Edited by Starfish35
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calliope1975

calliope1975

(edited)

Yeah, I'm thinking my spec on the boyfriend being Barry is a no go since he seems to be

Spoiler

all about Iris

in The Flash promos. (spoiler bar in case someone cares about The Flash)

I would forgive the whole lame boyfriend idea if it was Eddie or Tommy. It won't be Tommy, but a girl can dream CD could do a quick one-off cameo to make me not hate this show. 

Gotta get my bottle of forget-me-now pills ready for the premiere so I can ignore all the stuff I don't like.

Edited by calliope1975
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Guest

Guest

4 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Just my two cents, but if the surprise IS who Felicity's boyfriend is, I can't see it being a new character.  We'd see that coming miles away.  I think it has to be someone the audience is familiar with but is not at all expecting to see, for whatever reason.   And, given that the last two seasons they managed to pull off season premiere endings that no one saw coming, I have to think this is going to truly be a shock.  

Ray? 

*Ducks* Haha.

I actually have no clue but I wouldn't be surprised if it's someone we already know.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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6 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Ray? 

*Ducks* Haha.

I actually have no clue but I wouldn't be surprised if it's someone we already know.

WM ruled out Ray when she talked about how different the boyfriend is from Ray and Oliver. I can't remember if she ruled out Barry in the same answer.

Unless the loft reveal is Felicity cutting herself or having a Haven Rock shrine or self medicating.  Hell maybe the reveal is Goth Felicity hallucinations again?

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Mrs. de Winter

Mrs. de Winter

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Unless the loft reveal is Felicity cutting herself or having a Haven Rock shrine or self medicating.  Hell maybe the reveal is Goth Felicity hallucinations again?

If it is between Haven Rock shrine and boyfriend - I vote shrine! 

Big no to self medicating - been there, done that on this show and it was not good.  

Could this be some sort of stupid fake out?  Like she got a dog and named it boyfriend and is lying to keep Oliver at a distance?  Or Eddie - I am still fine with Eddie (Tommy is also an acceptable choice). 

If it is magic rag guy I will be very, very annoyed (so smart money says it is probably magic rag guy).

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Guest

Guest

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

WM ruled out Ray when she talked about how different the boyfriend is from Ray and Oliver. I can't remember if she ruled out Barry in the same answer.

Unless the loft reveal is Felicity cutting herself or having a Haven Rock shrine or self medicating.  Hell maybe the reveal is Goth Felicity hallucinations again?

Well that's something at least! I couldn't go through Raylicity 2.0. 

At this point I really don't care who it is tbh. It's a dumb idea in the first place. And I'd actually like the loft reveal to be something that doesn't involve Felicity's love life. I have small dreams!

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