Spoiler Discussion Thread

[wingster55]

yeah, there's way too many smart, competent women on TV. When will the men get their due?!

 

...that wasn't my point at all.

[Guest]

Yeah, I don't like it when the lair is overcrowded. It doesn't look right.

 

Also, if evidence comes to light that affects the joint ventures between Team Arrow and Team Flash, does that make it sound like there's doubt/friction placed between them? Please don't tell me someone from The Flash killed Sara because that is verging on absolutely ridiculous. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Guest

[writersblock51]

wingster, then I misunderstood your point as well. Perhaps you can clarify?

 

I think the shows have both made it obvious that the make up of the respective teams function similarily. Flash has Dr Wells as the overall seer but other than that, I see many parallels.  And those have even been addressed on the Flash when Felicity was visiting.

 

I think Caitlyn and Felicity are more or less the communications hubs for their teams, they have the brains to be more than just a switchboard operator and they also talk to each other.

[wonderwall]

...that wasn't my point at all.

I mean, considering they're in front of the computers, aka, Felicity's expertise, I don't really understand the problem? Cisco is the engineer, Caitlin is the Bio person, Felicity is the computer person. They all have different skill sets. ;

[apinknightmare]

I mean, considering they're in front of the computers, aka, Felicity's expertise, I don't really understand the problem? Cisco is the engineer, Caitlin is the Bio person, Felicity is the computer person. They all have different skill sets. ;

Right. And Felicity going to Caitlin for help doesn't at all diminish Cisco or Barry's abilities, so I don't exactly get the issue here. Unless Felicity's supposed to gather every single qualified person around and let them decide who helps her so they all feel equally appreciated for their intelligence.

[wingster55]

My point wasn't of Felicity actually. It was Caitlin and Cisco..they seem to have the same IQ in computers...why wouldn't they both be working on whatever Felicity can't do?

[statsgirl]

^ I have a different problem with it...they're definitely painting it as Felicity and Caitlin being the brains of their respective teams...except Barry and Cisco are also really smart...

Felicity is the tech person for Team Arrow.  In terms of Barry and Cisco both have their own fields of knowledge but if this is analyzing the blood from the arrows that killed Sara, that's definitely Caitlin's expertise.

 

Other than that, Felicity  and Caitlin seem to have more social intelligence than Oliver, Barry or Cisco (which is fair since it tends to be higher for women than for men).  Caitlin's comment to Cisco as he was holding the boomerang "You didn't think this one through, did you?"  was the best line of the Plastique episode for me.

 

ETA: Just saw the photo of the lair from the crossover (in the Spoilers ONLY thread).  WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many people there.  

No Laurel, though.

 

Nice to see Lyla there. Is this where they bring in ARGUS to the 'who killed Sara?' mystery?

Edited November 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

My point wasn't of Felicity actually. It was Caitlin and Cisco..they seem to have the same IQ in computers...why wouldn't they both be working on whatever Felicity can't do?

Because we don't know whether the information they need is something Caitlin and/or Cisco can get.

[TanyaKay]

So my guess is that the DNA will come back showing that the DNA sample is connected to Oliver.  Hence... Thea.

 

ETA: Just saw the photo of the lair from the crossover (in the Spoilers ONLY thread).  WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many people there.  

 

Way too many people but no Barry? Please don't tell me he was hanging out with Laurel. I actually like Barry and I want to continue liking him.

[Danny Franks]

My point wasn't of Felicity actually. It was Caitlin and Cisco..they seem to have the same IQ in computers...why wouldn't they both be working on whatever Felicity can't do?

Because Cisco is an irritating, scrappy-doo character who no one should want to deal with unless forced to? That'd be my reason anyway.

Caitlin, by comparison, seems like much better company.

[wingster55]

I didn't need to mention Felicity as that wasn't related to my point, my mistake. Caitlin is the "bio" person but I would think Cisco is competent in that field as well just as she is in engineering.

 

Also the parallels between teh two teams begin and end with 2 men, 1 women.

 

Felicity  and Caitlin seem to have more social intelligence than Oliver, Barry or Cisco

 

Bolding mine. No..if she did, she wouldn't spout at double entendres constantly.

[Tangerine]

My point wasn't of Felicity actually. It was Caitlin and Cisco..they seem to have the same IQ in computers...why wouldn't they both be working on whatever Felicity can't do?

 

They could very well both be. We don't really know how it goes down, just that Caitlin is the one that Felicity initially reaches out to. Because it seems to be DNA related, and Caitlin is the biology expert. And given the dearth of strong female friendships on both shows, I personally welcome it.

[Orion]

 

"Something significant happens in the middle of the Arrow Episode to someone we care about, Guggenheim teases.."

"The discovery of a vital piece of evidence in Sara’s death is set to impact everyone on the canvas and could inform any future joint adventures. ‘Both shows are changed as a result of the crossover’ Guggenheim says. ‘There will be long lasting repercussions"

-TV Guide crossover issue 11/24

 

It's the canary cry isn't it? That meta humans exist further than Central City and the producers have been blowing smoke when they said this wouldn't happen on Arrow. That would certainly explain how she's in costume after winter break.

 

If that is what happens the writers are absolutely terrible and I've been given them way to much credit.

[quarks]

Or I was a lot more right in my sarcastic Harrison Wells comment than I thought.

[apinknightmare]

It's the canary cry isn't it? That meta humans exist further than Central City and the producers have been blowing smoke when they said this wouldn't happen on Arrow. That would certainly explain how she's in costume after winter break.

 

If that is what happens the writers are absolutely terrible and I've been given them way to much credit.

 

I think the "something significant" happening is Oliver finding out about his kid.

 

ETA: Nevermind - I just caught that it happens in the middle of the Arrow ep, not the Flash ep.

 

So, if it is Laurel, then she must go to Central City during all this turmoil to visit her mom, and then some other kind of accelerator-related event has to happen while she's there?

 

ETA AGAIN: No, that can't be it (Laurel going to CC), because Lance surprises her with a visit from her mother for Christmas. It wouldn't be much of a surprise if she'd just seen her a couple of weeks before.

Edited November 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

Or I was a lot more right in my sarcastic Harrison Wells comment than I thought.

Remind me, which sarcastic comment was that again? :-) LOL

Edited November 18, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[SleepDeprived]

But the "something significant" is happening in the Arrow episode. Isn't the kid reveal something that's been speculated on to be that "major secret about Oliver" that's going to be revealed during the Flash part of the crossover?

 

I didn't need to mention Felicity as that wasn't related to my point, my mistake. Caitlin is the "bio" person but I would think Cisco is competent in that field as well just as she is in engineering.

 

Caitlin is a bio-engineering specialist. Cisco is an expert in mechanical engineering. The two fields are completely different and no, either should not, realistically, be competent in the other's field. The spoiler said Felicity needed help regarding DNA so since Caitlin works in biology, it's only rational for Felicity to ask her and not Cisco. Unless Felicity needed Cisco to build a DNA machine right then and there in the foundry then there really is no need for his help, in this instance.

[apinknightmare]

But the "something significant" is happening in the Arrow episode. Isn't the kid reveal something that's been speculated on to be that "major secret about Oliver" that's going to be revealed during the Flash part of the crossover?

 

Yeah, my mistake. I edited my comment approximately 1,000 times when I realized this, haha.

[statsgirl]

I don't see how Laurel could get the canary cry without some massively WTF? writing.  The metahumans were created when Star labs exploded and Laurel was in Starling City then.

 

Guggenheim said "someone we care about".  Surely he can't be so clueless as to mean Laurel,  Every critic comments how polarizing she is.

 

Bolding mine. No..if she did, she wouldn't spout at double entendres constantly.

Different things.  If she didn't have social intelligence, she wouldn't realize that what she said was inappropriate.

[apinknightmare]

Also, in that spoiler pic of everyone in the foundry, I love that they all look kind of distraught/shellshocked and Caitlin's just sitting there smiling like a loon.

[Guest]

No, it can't be the kid because as others have said, the reveal about Oliver happens in The Flash (that is if it's his kid) and also, how would knowledge of Oliver's kid effect the two teams working together in the future?

 

I'm betting on the canary cry right now because the EP's have said enough times about the show remaining grounded that I half expect them to suddenly go SURPRISE BITCH we lied. 

[apinknightmare]

No, it can't be the kid because as others have said, the reveal about Oliver happens in The Flash (that is if it's his kid) and also, how would knowledge of Oliver's kid effect the two teams working together in the future?

 

I'm betting on the canary cry right now because the EP's have said enough times about the show remaining grounded that I half expect them to suddenly go SURPRISE BITCH we lied. 

 

Does anyone have the full text of the TV Guide article? The snippets kind of make it seem like all three quotes are related, but they're not (at least I initially read it like they were related).

 

So, the vital piece of evidence they find informs future team collaborations and joint ventures = someone on one of the teams' DNA has to be on that arrow. Or Thea's does, although no one from Central City even knows Thea, so why they'd care if she was a killer is kind of a puzzler.

 

Something happens to someone we care about in the middle of the episode, with no other clues as to context, so...what's this about? Does something happen to Barry or Caitlin or Cisco? Aren't Joe and Iris's boyfriend in this ep, or did I make that up? Maybe something happens to one of them? If something happens that changes Arrow in the Flash hour, something might happen in the Arrow hour that changes Flash.

 

Both shows are changed as a result of the crossover = Oliver finds out about his kid in Central City, thus affecting Arrow. What does the Flash team find out in Starling that changes them?

Edited November 18, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

Didnt EBR film a scene in the dark with no dialogue and a pair of scissors? Was that for 108 or 308?

[apinknightmare]

Didnt EBR film a scene in the dark with no dialogue and a pair of scissors? Was that for 108 or 308?

It was for 3x08.

[Morrigan2575]

Something happens to someone we care about in the middle of the episode, with no other clues as to context, so...what's this about?

so, could that be Felicity?

[apinknightmare]

so, could that be Felicity?

Could be anyone, I think.

[Morrigan2575]

Could be anyone, I think.

well yeah, I was wondering/speculating if that tease could be connected to the scene I mentioned

Edited November 19, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[SmallScreenDiva]

Why am I suddenly very worried about Lyla?

[Guest]

I don't have a link to the full article, just what I read here. 

 

I did wonder if something happened to Felicity, but that's only based on the knowledge of that scene @Morrigan2575 and @apinknightmare have mentioned already, where she's alone in the dark with a pair of scissors for self defence.

 

But isn't the Arrow crossover episode a lot about H.I.V.E and Diggle and Lyla? Maybe something happens there. 

 

As for the rest of it, I just don't know. The article makes it sound like the evidence incriminates someone from The Flash, affecting their join ventures in the future. 

Edited November 19, 2014 by Guest

[wingster55]

Caitlin is a bio-engineering specialist. Cisco is an expert in mechanical engineering. The two fields are completely different and no, either should not, realistically, be competent in the other's field. The spoiler said Felicity needed help regarding DNA so since Caitlin works in biology, it's only rational for Felicity to ask her and not Cisco. Unless Felicity needed Cisco to build a DNA machine right then and there in the foundry then there really is no need for his help, in this instance.

 

hmm..point.

 

Also I didn't even realize Barry wasn't in the scene...

[quarks]

Remind me, which sarcastic comment was that again? :-) LOL

 

 

OK, I may resemble that remark.

 

To clarify, my adding Harrison Wells to the list of murder suspects was initially meant as seriously as my Bilbo Baggins suggestion. However, IF, and I specify, IF, there is some revelation about Sara's murder that devastates both teams, finding out that Harrison Wells is a suspect and/or that he was backed by ARGUS could be it.  

[apinknightmare]

OK, I may resemble that remark.

 

To clarify, my adding Harrison Wells to the list of murder suspects was initially meant as seriously as my Bilbo Baggins suggestion. However, IF, and I specify, IF, there is some revelation about Sara's murder that devastates both teams, finding out that Harrison Wells is a suspect and/or that he was backed by ARGUS could be it.  

 

It seems kind of early in the Flash for them to start suspecting Harrison of shenanigans though, doesn't it?

 

With the abnormal height of the archer remark from Felicity, maybe it was him shooting from his wheelchair?

Edited November 19, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Tangerine]

OK, I may resemble that remark.

 

To clarify, my adding Harrison Wells to the list of murder suspects was initially meant as seriously as my Bilbo Baggins suggestion. However, IF, and I specify, IF, there is some revelation about Sara's murder that devastates both teams, finding out that Harrison Wells is a suspect and/or that he was backed by ARGUS could be it.  

 

Well, are we sure Bilbo has an alibi for that time?

 

With the abnormal height of the archer remark from Felicity, maybe it was him shooting from his wheelchair?

 

It's possible, but as we've seen on The Flash, Harrison's acts of evil are usually preceded by him standing up ominously.

[statsgirl]

Yeah, I fully expect him to be a suspect sometime this season, although how could Sara know who he was?

 

And then he'll be eliminated, and we'll get the next clue, and the next suspect, and the next elimination. They really don't know how to write mysteries, do they?  Maybe the Laura writers could help them out.

[apinknightmare]

 

It's possible, but as we've seen on The Flash, Harrison's acts of evil are usually preceded by him standing up ominously.

 

Maybe this time he broke tradition and stood up after, to watch Sara HIT THAT DUMPSTER

 

 

STILL NOT OVER IT

[apinknightmare]

well yeah, I was wondering/speculating if that tease could be connected to the scene I mentioned

 

Oh, definitely. I just don't want it to be her - poor girl has suffered enough already! And if it is her, villains really need to stop leaving scissors/wifi enabled watches/pistols around her, damn. I mean, keep doing it if it means your undoing, but...stupid!

[Carrie Ann]

It seems kind of early in the Flash for them to start suspecting Harrison of shenanigans though, doesn't it?

 

With the abnormal height of the archer remark from Felicity, maybe it was him shooting from his wheelchair?

 

I thought of the wheelchair thing, but w/r/t Tommy as the killer. Like, maybe his dad was able to save him, but he was paralyzed or something. But then I thought the roof probably wouldn't be accessible, so I wrote it off.

 

BTW, some of this spec regarding Sara's killer is going to be sort of hilarious to re-read when we really know what's going on. The above, for example, is cracked out craziness, but seems as possible as anything else, right?

[apinknightmare]

BTW, some of this spec regarding Sara's killer is going to be sort of hilarious to re-read when we really know what's going on. The above, for example, is cracked out craziness, but seems as possible as anything else, right?

 

I was going to comment on the ridiculousness of the Wells theory as far as the wheelchair goes, but then I thought that might be insensitive because I wasn't trying to suggest that people in wheelchairs can't totally be arrow-wielding assassins, it's just...this show, haha.

 

One of the big problems with this mystery is that I don't trust that the show is giving us actualfax information regarding the murderer. Like, were the arrows really shot at a strange angle suggesting a shorter killer, or did they just throw that in so Roy could be a "legit" suspect? I'm not sure what information we have that's real and what's not, and that's not the making of a good whodunit.

Edited November 19, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Carrie Ann]

I was going to comment on the ridiculousness of the Wells theory as far as the wheelchair goes, but then I thought that might be insensitive because I wasn't trying to suggest that people in wheelchairs can't totally be arrow-wielding assassins, it's just...this show, haha.

 

One of the big problems with this mystery is that I don't trust that the show is giving us actualfax information regarding the murderer. Like, were the arrows really shot at a strange angle suggesting a shorter killer, or did they just throw that in so Roy could be a "legit" suspect? I'm not sure what information we have that's real and what's not, and that's not the making of a good whodunit.

 

I was referring to my own cracked-out theory! Which would involve: a) Tommy not really dying in S1; b) Malcolm saving him somehow; c) Tommy being paralyzed; d) Tommy in a wheelchair on that roof with arrows; and e) Tommy killing Sara for some reason. That is straight up bananas. AND YET it seemed plausible to me for a minute.

 

But to your second point--I wouldn't be surprised at all if in the next episode, they were like, "Well, there were those weird track marks up on the roof, like some vehicle was up there...something with wheels." As people keep pointing out, this is not how you do a murder mystery. It's fine to slowly dole out clues if our heroes are only finding them bit by bit, but revealing clues slowly when the characters have had that information all along is nonsense. And yeah, it makes you question whether any of the "clues" are actually real or important, or only there to serve that episode's needs. Ugh. Let's just get this "mystery" over with already.

[Starfish35]

Well if we want to take Wells seriously as a suspect (which I'm not really, I'm just running with it), you could look at it as him manipulating events for Laurel to become BC just like he seems to have manipulated events for Barry to become the Flash.

[statsgirl]

If you're looking at who is manipulating events for Laurel to become BC, we always end up with the same suspect .... Marc Guggenheim.

[apinknightmare]

Well if we want to take Wells seriously as a suspect (which I'm not really, I'm just running with it), you could look at it as him manipulating events for Laurel to become BC just like he seems to have manipulated events for Barry to become the Flash.

 

He'd also have to manipulate events to make sure someone is implicated (not him) that would bring the LOA into it, because otherwise what's the point? Other than making Laurel BC, I mean.

Edited November 19, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

I was going to comment on the ridiculousness of the Wells theory as far as the wheelchair goes, but then I thought that might be insensitive because I wasn't trying to suggest that people in wheelchairs can't totally be arrow-wielding assassins, it's just...this show, haha.

One of the big problems with this mystery is that I don't trust that the show is giving us actualfax information regarding the murderer. Like, were the arrows really shot at a strange angle suggesting a shorter killer, or did they just throw that in so Roy could be a "legit" suspect? I'm not sure what information we have that's real and what's not, and that's not the making of a good whodunit.

I've only watched 301 and 305 but it sounds like the show is setting up clues that only really point to the next suspect they want you to look at. Black arrow, killed with Arrows there's a new hitman in town who uses a bow. Find out Sara was tracking Malcolm oh Malcolm is the next suspect. Arrow shot from low angle not normal arrows, Roy threw the Arrows, next suspect. Wasn't Roy, how convenient a woman shows up who kills with a bow and has a thing for Arrow. ..new suspect.

Reminds me of that movie Murder by Death...the villain's rant at the end.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

Regarding that IG pic EBR posted of CH and KC in costume - CH looks like I feel about it, haha.

[Tangerine]

I'm not mad, I'm disappointed.

[apinknightmare]

I'm not mad, I'm disappointed.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about it. Not mad, maybe disappointed, definitely kind of...meh, I guess. I wasn't interested in watching her become BC anyway, but I'm especially not interested in watching it happen while Oliver's missing/not around.

Edited November 19, 2014 by apinknightmare

[wonderwall]

I'm not disappointed, I'm meh about it too. I'm sort of tired of them shoving Laurel is BC down my throat... Granted i've been tired of it ever since episode 2, but yeah, with Oliver not there for the first few episodes, I don't think I'll be tuning in for those episodes. I'm not really interested in the Roy and Laurel show. 

 

I think i'd be disappointed if I expected better from Arrow in terms of Laurel, but I'm just over it lol I mean, I was disappointed the first two seasons, but now I'm just indifferent because I don't think they'll ever do BC any justice. Oh well. 

Edited November 19, 2014 by wonderwall

[Guest]

I think I might have come to terms with Laurel as BC now, in the sense that we know it's happening and it's too soon but there's nothing we can do about it so whatever. It's the complete opposite of how I wanted/expected her journey to BC to go so they've already lost me. Let them get on with it. I really don't care anymore. I already know nothing they do is going to change how I feel about it. 

 

And that IG picture is pretty sad tbh. Also, what's with all the buckles? 

[blixie]

My feelings on Laurel Lance, Lawyer package vs Laurel Lance, Black Canary (and substitute Arrow) package:

 

[apinknightmare]

And that IG picture is pretty sad tbh. Also, what's with all the buckles? 

 

I don't know - they seem pointless. How long would it take her to get into that damn thing?

 

I hope it looks better in professional lighting and/or in motion. Right now with the wig and everything it looks like a Halloween costume from the Wal-Mart bargain bin. Not that Roy's is much better, but....yeah.