Spoiler Discussion Thread

[statsgirl]

I think SA's instincts were right to spoil that Felicity had a boyfriend.  These writers have terrible understanding of how the viewers are going to react and I think if we found out only at the end of the episode in a Gotcha! that Felicity was sleeping with someone else would have caused a reaction worse than the one to replacing Sara Diggle with a boy or what I anticipate will be the upset among Laurel fans when they figure out she's not really back.

I have no idea what they're planning with Susan.  Unlike Billy, she's not a good person (really, except for the chemistry, Billy would have been a better OTP for Felicity than Oliver is because he's someone who wants to be a true partner unlike Oliver) and the longer this goes on, the more stupid Oliver looks.

[Lily-n11]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I have no idea what they're planning with Susan.  Unlike Billy, she's not a good person (really, except for the chemistry, Billy would have been a better OTP for Felicity than Oliver is because he's someone who wants to be a true partner unlike Oliver) and the longer this goes on, the more stupid Oliver looks.

I have been thinking about this: What if it turns out that Oliver did in fact not ignore Thea's warning about the reporter. What if he was keeping her close to keep an eye on what she's doing. And what if he's going to be prepared for the betrayal that might be coming. Would that make him and his actions up until now less stupid? I'm undecided. I mean it would be different than the Isabell thing from season 2, which hit him totally out of nowhere. But so far I have not seen a hint on him not trusting the reporter since her phone number was handed to him.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, Lily-n11 said:

I have been thinking about this: What if it turns out that Oliver did in fact not ignore Thea's warning about the reporter. What if he was keeping her close to keep an eye on what she's doing. And what if he's going to be prepared for the betrayal that might be coming. Would that make him and his actions up until now less stupid? I'm undecided. I mean it would be different than the Isabell thing from season 2, which hit him totally out of nowhere. But so far I have not seen a hint on him not trusting the reporter since her phone number was handed to him.

But that would just be a repeat of the end of S3 when Oliver told Malcolm and not Diggle or Felicity what he was doing. Why not tell someone what he's doing? Even just Thea, since she's the one who's been repeatedly warning him. Then again, considering the show... I wouldn't be surprised. He'd still be stupid. (I don't think this is what's going to happen.) 

[ComicFan777]

I don't think that Oliver suspects anything.  Out of all the people to pick, he went to Susan for comfort after killing his ex-fiancee's boyfriend - why go to her when he is at one of the lowest points in his life if he didn't trust her?  I think it's just going to be his pelvic sorcery that keeps him out of too much trouble.

Edited January 2, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Lily-n11]

If he told someone that means the viewers would know as well and that would take away the Gotcha! moment. Don't get me wrong I would really like if he was talking to people (especially Diggle or / and Felicity) but the show is what it is.

Thinking about that "what if" again... he can't really win (with me as a viewer). If he doesn't see it coming he will be stupid. If he doesn't trust her and still actively engages in this romantic entanglement I can't root for him either. That is something I would expect from him maybe in the flashbacks but not after 4 years of development and 5 years into his hero story. But this kind of logic apperently does not apply to this season.

[calliope1975]

10 minutes ago, Lily-n11 said:

Thinking about that "what if" again... he can't really win (with me as a viewer). If he doesn't see it coming he will be stupid. If he doesn't trust her and still actively engages in this romantic entanglement I can't root for him either. That is something I would expect from him maybe in the flashbacks but not after 4 years of development and 5 years into his hero story. But this kind of logic apperently does not apply to this season.

That's the problem with ignoring 4 years of growth and effectively rebooting your show back to S1. Your characters end up being complete maroons. TIIC have stated they liked torturing OQ because they're sadists or can't think of other story lines or whatever. Has MG (cuz it's always MG) ever mentioned they like keeping OQ dumb as well?

[insomniadreams88]

15 minutes ago, Lily-n11 said:

If he told someone that means the viewers would know as well and that would take away the Gotcha! moment. Don't get me wrong I would really like if he was talking to people (especially Diggle or / and Felicity) but the show is what it is.

Thinking about that "what if" again... he can't really win (with me as a viewer). If he doesn't see it coming he will be stupid. If he doesn't trust her and still actively engages in this romantic entanglement I can't root for him either. That is something I would expect from him maybe in the flashbacks but not after 4 years of development and 5 years into his hero story. But this kind of logic apperently does not apply to this season.

Yeah, but this could have been a time when they decided to forget about the Gotcha! moment and instead made their main character, their hero, not look stupid and actually look like someone viewers would want to root for.

I still don't get why Human Target looked at Susan and thought, "Hmm, I should hook up the mayor with this reporter." Was she the only female he encountered in Oliver's life other than his sister and figured since Felicity had a boyfriend, Oliver needed a girlfriend too and she was perfect for the job? Why didn't Human Target look into Susan? I'm sure he probably could've discovered that she was digging into Oliver's life. That could have been interesting. Have Human Target warn Oliver, "Hey, this reporter is digging into you." After all, I doubt that one photo is all that there is of Oliver in Russia from back then.

Imagine if instead, they had Oliver have to deal with keeping his Bratva past a secret from when he should have been on the island and learning about Prometheus at the same time and being mayor. Maybe then have him talk to Thea and wonder if he should keep Susan close - Thea could've thought it a bad idea and Oliver could've disagreed to have them on opposite sides of the argument. 

[Starfish35]

Quote

Has MG (cuz it's always MG) ever mentioned they like keeping OQ dumb as well?

He's said they get a lot of mileage out of Oliver having his head up his ass.  There was another similar quote but I can't remember it at the moment. I think those were circa season three.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I still don't get why Human Target looked at Susan and thought, "Hmm, I should hook up the mayor with this reporter." Was she the only female he encountered in Oliver's life other than his sister and figured since Felicity had a boyfriend, Oliver needed a girlfriend too and she was perfect for the job? Why didn't Human Target look into Susan? I'm sure he probably could've discovered that she was digging into Oliver's life. That could have been interesting. Have Human Target warn Oliver, "Hey, this reporter is digging into you." After all, I doubt that one photo is all that there is of Oliver in Russia from back then.

Good point.  Isn't his job looking into people and finding out everything about them?  Did Susan's neediness not set off any alarms bells?  How about her determination to bring Oliver down?  Is that the kind of woman HT thinks he should date?

 I'd like to blame it all on Human Target (and he's going to be back so I can) but Oliver has to take some of the blame too.

I think the only way to save this scenario is to have Oliver aware from the beginning that he shouldn't trust her, contrary to WM's assertion that they develop "genuine feelings" for each other.  IMO, the only genuine feeling Oliver should have towards her is distrust.  Maybe he knows she's digging into his past and it's a case of "keep your enemies closer", and if you can get sex out of it, so much the better.  I won't like it but at least it doesn't keep him an idiot.

[Cleanqueen]

I am just thinking, as stupid as it was for Oliver go to Susan in 5x09, is there anyone else he could've had that conversation with. I could accept it if she wasn't in the episode, but her showing up at the party was their way of inserting her in to the episode and since we only saw her at the party and she didn't do much there except be apart of an awkward scene they had to have her be in that scene with Oliver. Curtis was being dumped, Diggle was being arrested, Thea was probably doing god knows what and felicity probably was not the right person for that convo. And I doubt Rory and Wild Dog were the best people for oliver to open up to about hurting those he loves

I would think even if Oliver knew she was shady, he could still go talk to her and have that convo with her to see what she does next. He might at this point suspect she is working with Prometheus and with the Evelyn betrayal he might want to be two steps ahead of it all this time instead of looking like a fool in the span of one month.

[ComicFan777]

Out of all the people in 5x9, I think Oliver would have talked to either Diggle or Thea.  Even though the writers had Diggle arrested at that time, Thea would have still been available to talk.  Oliver has had heart-to-heart talks with Thea before, so I'm sure he'd be able to open up about hurting the ones they love spiraling from the guilt he felt after accidentally killing Felicity's boyfriend.  I mean, Thea accidentally killed Sara while under the influence and Thea also helped Roy deal with his guilt after accidentally killed a cop under the influence of mirakuru -  really, Thea would have been the ideal person to talk about all of this.

Edited January 2, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Cleanqueen]

3 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Out of all the people in 5x9, I think Oliver would have talked to either Diggle or Thea.  Even though the writers had Diggle arrested at that time, Thea would have still been available to talk.  Oliver have had heart-to-heart talks with Thea before, so I'm sure he'd be able to open up about hurting the ones they love spiraling from the guilt he felt after accidentally killing Felicity's boyfriend.  I mean, Thea accidentally killed Sara while under the influence and Roy accidentally killed a cop under the influence of mirakuru (and talked about his guilt with Thea).  Really, Thea would have been the ideal person to talk about all of this.

Yes which to me really proves there is a reason why he had that talk with Susan and it wasn't just about him and his desires. To the audience it looked like he chose the last person he should be talking to but it might mean much more if we find out, Oliver knew all along. We're being told Susan is different than Isabel and it certainly would surprise people if Oliver was indeed on to her all along. I don't necessarily think its the same as S3 with Malcolm, because so far Susan hasn't proven to be a threat to anyone else but she's just interested in Oliver and his secrets.

[apinknightmare]

I get him not talking to anyone on the team if he was feeling isolated by his "I destroy the life of everyone I care about" feels, since...well, I guess she's the only one on the show who isn't an enemy that he probably doesn't care all that much about. And if she was shady in a way that Oliver was unaware of, I probably wouldn't think that much about it. 

But she is shady, and he does know it, and this is the second time that he's gone to her with an insecurity of his, so...I don't think there's any way he's playing her at this point. And if he is, then he's heavily relying on appealing to her good nature, which is also not smart.

[ComicFan777]

This isn't the first time he chose the wrong person to talk to.  This stupidity just reminds me of when Oliver went to talk to Mari and Diggle about sending William away, when the obvious person to talk to would have been Felicity because she thought her father abandoned her (besides being his fiancee and all).  Oliver is just a moron IMO.

Edited January 2, 2017 by ComicFan777

[tangerine95]

I think he could have talked to Thea or Digg or even one of the newbies. Basically someone who he can actually talk to about what really happened instead of vaguely talk around it like he had to with the reporter because she has no idea about his actual life. The whole reporter thing feels like Oliver enjoys someone who strokes his ego and constantly hits on him lol. I can see him not talking to his friends because of the whole I ruin the people I love thing but then being alone in that moment makes more sense imo.That whole scene was forced so there's not much sense to it. 

I do think there's a chance he knew all along but it still makes him look bad to get involved with her if he knew she was playing him too. But at least that would make him look less dumb than just trusting her despite warnings and proof otherwise. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by tangerine95

[jay741982]

2 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

I don't think that Oliver suspects anything.  Out of all the people to pick, he went to Susan for comfort after killing his ex-fiancee's boyfriend - why go to her when he is at one of the lowest points in his life if he didn't trust her?  I think it's just going to be his pelvic sorcery that keeps him out of too much trouble.

When he shouldn't be turning to her when he barely knows her!  That scene still makes me Grrrrrrr

[insomniadreams88]

I think my other problem with Oliver telling Susan anything is that if she's competent enough (which she should be, considering her job and the fact that she found a PI who found that Russia photo) and does enough digging, she could uncover information about the rest of the team too. She could look into the people around him and wonder, "Why is his ex-fiancee dropping by the mayor's office (502)" - for all we know, his security detail will tell her anything she wants to know -- "and why is he hanging out with these random three people at the concert and why was he MIA at the same time that his former bodyguard broke out of prison and hmm, that person has just been arrested again, so where has he been all this time?" And IIRC (I don't want to rewatch the scene), didn't he talk to her about someone doing the same job as him but differently when talking about Vigilante after earlier talking about Vigilante with her? Or something like that? I just remember thinking, "So, you're basically telling a reporter that you could also be a vigilante out there? Hmm..." 

His actions affect those around him - which he knows - and yet, he's still doing things that could, again, affect those around him in a negative way.

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

This isn't the first time he chose the wrong person to talk to.  This stupidity just reminds me of when Oliver went to talk to Mari and Diggle about sending William away, when the obvious person to talk to would have been Felicity because she thought her father abandoned her (besides being his fiancee and all).  Oliver is just a moron IMO.

IDK, I think Diggle and Mari were both great people to talk to - Diggle gave Oliver his perspective as a father, Mari as someone who grew up without the burden of the superhero/supernatural world that would've been similar to what William would've been dealing with if he knew Oliver was the Green Arrow and his dad.

He just needed to include Felicity in the conversation, because of the advice she could give about growing up without her dad, and because they were going to be married. Preferably before he talked to Diggle and Mari about what he should do, and also after - when he was weighing the advice everyone gave him and was figuring out what to do. 

[Chaser]

lol I can't make sense out of anything Reporter related. Oliver being an idiot. That we have seen before so as frustrated as I am with it, I can see it. I have hard time understanding what they are doing with Reporter. Why are they writing their scenes this way? And why is CP playing like the villain if she isn't supposed to be one?

[statsgirl]

Diggle was a good person to talk to because he was out there being a vigilante with a young child.  I don't think Oliver needed to talk to Mari at all because he already knew what it was like to grow up with the burden of expectation -- he'd done it himself as the Queen empire heir.  It still burns me that he took Mari's advice and didn't even talk to Felicity.

Of course, if he had talked to Felicity in any way, shape or form, she wouldn't have broken up with him and that's the beat they needed to get to.  Even without Felicity's experience of growing up without a father, just any consultation with her would have shown him to be the partner she wanted, who included her in the big decisions as a real partner, instead of someone she thought she couldn't spend the rest of her life with.

35 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But she is shady, and he does know it, and this is the second time that he's gone to her with an insecurity of his, so...I don't think there's any way he's playing her at this point. And if he is, then he's heavily relying on appealing to her good nature, which is also not smart.

That's the problem, that she is shady and he's going to her when he's vulnerable.  Even if he knows he shouldn't trust her (please, please let HT have looked her up and warned Oliver) and even if we haven't seen him disclose anything yet about his GA identity,  he can't be sure that he wouldn't let something slip when he's so upset, or in the throes of sex, or while dreaming afterwards.   It's as stupid as trusting Malcolm Merlyn after he set up Oliver to fight Ra's, or not doing anything to protect William after Malcolm found out about him.

Edited January 2, 2017 by statsgirl

[Cleanqueen]

Speaking of HT, I would love him back for another episode. I think they left a door open for his return and it would be awesome to see him again. This time they should keep his appearance a secret so only during the episode do we find out that he's there.

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I still don't get why Human Target looked at Susan and thought, "Hmm, I should hook up the mayor with this reporter." Was she the only female he encountered in Oliver's life other than his sister and figured since Felicity had a boyfriend, Oliver needed a girlfriend too and she was perfect for the job? Why didn't Human Target look into Susan? I'm sure he probably could've discovered that she was digging into Oliver's life. That could have been interesting. Have Human Target warn Oliver, "Hey, this reporter is digging into you." After all, I doubt that one photo is all that there is of Oliver in Russia from back then.

Didn't Human Target beat the hell out of Oliver in Russia in the flashbacks while posing as some other dude? And when the PI mentioned Christopher Chance to her at the end of that ep, didn't she seem like she knew who he was talking about? So, I imagine Human Target gave Oliver her number as a way of fucking with him. Either because he's just that kind of a dick, or maybe he (HT) and Susan have had some kind of a run-in in the past? 

 

/putting more thought into it than the writers 

[Mrs. de Winter]

36 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I think he could have talked to Thea or Digg or even one of the newbies. Basically someone who he can actually talk to about what really happened instead of vaguely talk around it like he had to with the reporter because she has no idea about his actual life.

Then again Felicity and Diggle have both been down this road with Oliver before so I hope their reactions would be to smack him upside the head rather than stroke his ego.  And since I want to be able to keep liking Diggle and Felicity I think I just talked myself into being happy that Oliver has the reporter - let her stroke his -- whatever.  

Part of the problem with this incessant need the writer have to keep hitting the poor little Oliver button is that with every new/old stupid thing Oliver does I find myself wondering why Diggle and Felicity would stay with him.  Why not just strike out on their own with a new team that doesn't include man-child Oliver?   He lies to them whenever he feels justified, he trusts people like MM (even in the face of endless evidence that it is stupid) before them, and despite his grandiose statements of friendship he never really seems to be there when they need him or notice what they are going through.  I suppose that could change in the next few episodes considering where Felicity and Diggle are - but it seems unlikely. 

[insomniadreams88]

12 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Didn't Human Target beat the hell out of Oliver in Russia in the flashbacks while posing as some other dude? And when the PI mentioned Christopher Chance to her at the end of that ep, didn't she seem like she knew who he was talking about? So, I imagine Human Target gave Oliver her number as a way of fucking with him. Either because he's just that kind of a dick, or maybe he (HT) and Susan have had some kind of a run-in in the past? 

I bet they forgot all about that. Probably because they'd have to figure out a reason to explain it and just don't want to. But maybe the writers will surprise me and all this will come together in a way that makes sense and doesn't make Oliver look like a total idiot in 512. 

7 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

Part of the problem with this incessant need the writer have to keep hitting the poor little Oliver button is that with every new/old stupid thing Oliver does I find myself wondering why Diggle and Felicity would stay with him.  Why not just strike out on their own with a new team that doesn't include man-child Oliver?   He lies to them whenever he feels justified, he trusts people like MM (even in the face of endless evidence that it is stupid) before them, and despite his grandiose statements of friendship he never really seems to be there when they need him or notice what they are going through.  I suppose that could change in the next few episodes considering where Felicity and Diggle are - but it seems unlikely. 

Yeah, I'm choosing to be pessimistic about Oliver helping Felicity or Diggle (past getting him Chase as his lawyer apparently). He's going to have BS, then recruiting Tina, then whatever's going to happen with Susan to deal with in 510-512. So if he is there for the two people who have stood by him through all the crap he's pulled over the last several years,  I'll be pleasantly surprised. 

I can't help but wonder what Lance's reaction is going to be to everything (or at least what they tell him) when he gets out of rehab. Can you imagine? Say Thea tells him, "Well, one of the newbies betrayed us. So Oliver's recruiting another new person for the team. And the Laurel from another Earth destroyed the (ugly) statue the city made for your daughter" - they might have to tell him about BS or make up some lie if BS does, in fact, destroy that statue - "and Oliver's dating that reporter we warned him about and she found out that he was in Russia when he should have been on the island." "And what has Oliver done as mayor?" "Uh... I put together a holiday party in City Hall for him? Oh, and Diggle's back in jail because no one thought we should do anything about him being a fugitive." 

[tangerine95]

11 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

Then again Felicity and Diggle have both been down this road with Oliver before so I hope their reactions would be to smack him upside the head rather than stroke his ego.  And since I want to be able to keep liking Diggle and Felicity I think I just talked myself into being happy that Oliver has the reporter - let her stroke his -- whatever.  

Part of the problem with this incessant need the writer have to keep hitting the poor little Oliver button is that with every new/old stupid thing Oliver does I find myself wondering why Diggle and Felicity would stay with him.  Why not just strike out on their own with a new team that doesn't include man-child Oliver?   He lies to them whenever he feels justified, he trusts people like MM (even in the face of endless evidence that it is stupid) before them, and despite his grandiose statements of friendship he never really seems to be there when they need him or notice what they are going through.  I suppose that could change in the next few episodes considering where Felicity and Diggle are - but it seems unlikely. 

Yeah I basically have a period every season where I feel like Oliver doesn't deserve Felicity and Digg or their support. But there have also been times where I really like Oliver so I guess I'm still hoping they manage to make me like him again once they're done with whatever plot requires him to be this stupid. 

Its definitely time to stop with regressing Oliver and making him dumb for plot and actually let him grow, i mean it's season 5 but I'm not sure they ever will tbh. 

[statsgirl]

I'm fine with Diggle and Felicity saving themselves while Oliver does whatever he's going to do with Susan and the n00bs.  the less they have to prop Stupid Oliver and tell him how wonderful he is, the better for me.

I may be misremembering but didn't HT save Oliver's life in Russia at the very end of the flashbacks i that episode? I have a vague recollection of someone hiring him to protect Oliver.

I think the actor tweeted that he was going to be back on Arrow so there's still time to fix this mess with Susan.

[Chaser]

I figure they never intended for Reporter to be bad and for her to have a genuine romantic relationship with Oliver and they just missed the mark completely   in execution.

Or... she is shady and they are deflecting because they didn't intend to make it so blatant and they want that surprise.

Or... she started as shady, they changed their minds and are now doing some crazy swerve.

[insomniadreams88]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I'm fine with Diggle and Felicity saving themselves while Oliver does whatever he's going to do with Susan and the n00bs.  the less they have to prop Stupid Oliver and tell him how wonderful he is, the better for me.

I agree. But it would be nice to see him at least try to be there for them? Maybe acknowledge they're going through stuff? And not have one line asking about them cut off by someone entering the room/something else happening (like in 504). 

I think the problem is with the interviews/videos/spoilers being released too. Because right now we know Felicity's grieving after Oliver killed her boyfriend and has a "darker" arc coming up, Diggle's back in prison and the writers like writing for WD (still can't believe that interview), and ... Oliver's going to have a "genuine" relationship with the reporter, just believe that Laurel is alive again and go looking for Tina. They've stressed that Felicity's arc is separate from her relationship with Oliver and so far, it sounds like to them, that means that Oliver can't be involved whatsoever. 

[LeighAn]

Personally knowing how they over sell I'm going with annoyed the audience figured out their totally 100% subtle surprise that Susan is actually shady and are trying to throw the audience off. 

Although at the same time they didn't get that Ray came off like a creep and a stalker for 90% of season three so who knows.

My thoughts are she's shady in that she's getting close to Oliver romantically to get more info for her expose and that possibly she may have ties to Prometheus and doing this for his benefit (I.e  the arrow burn mark) but they will redeem her slightly by showing her conflicted over her choices because she's come to care about Oliver and maybe she will even own up and tell him what she did once it's to late for Oliver to change anything thereby still giving Oliver reason enough to break up with her but also making her not the straight up Isobel character

[Chaser]

7 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I agree. But it would be nice to see him at least try to be there for them? Maybe acknowledge they're going through stuff? And not have one line asking about them cut off by someone entering the room/something else happening (like in 504). 

I think the problem is with the interviews/videos/spoilers being released too. Because right now we know Felicity's grieving after Oliver killed her boyfriend and has a "darker" arc coming up, Diggle's back in prison and the writers like writing for WD (still can't believe that interview), and ... Oliver's going to have a "genuine" relationship with the reporter, just believe that Laurel is alive again and go looking for Tina. They've stressed that Felicity's arc is separate from her relationship with Oliver and so far, it sounds like to them, that means that Oliver can't be involved whatsoever. 

It didn't occur to me until I read this, but Oliver has the least dramatic teases going into the back half of the season. The biggest Prometheus tease is tied to Felicity.

[thegirlsleuth]

14 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I figure they never intended for Reporter to be bad and for her to have a genuine romantic relationship with Oliver and they just missed the mark completely   in execution.

Or... she is shady and they are deflecting because they didn't intend to make it so blatant and they want that surprise.

Or... she started as shady, they changed their minds and are now doing some crazy swerve.

I am confused by what they're doing.  In an interview earlier this season, Stephen mentioned that the reporter story would not be Isabelle 2.0, and I can believe that he would be "keeping the enemies close" thing except Oliver has gone to her in a state of true vulnerability, which is not something you do with someone you are trying to figure out what their game is.  I do tend to think this is bad writing--they tend to forget character development and I will be impressed if they actually revisit Susan's wrist mark--or they have have done a swerve and decided to make her a real romantic interest.

[Cleanqueen]

Maybe it was his intent to be vulnerable with her, show her that side to see how she approaches it. He didn't necessarily reveal anything shocking, just that he seems like a broken man who hurts those he loves blah blah. I do believe the team will find out sooner than the public about what Susan knows and if the team knows then Im certain Oliver either tells them or something happens before he can tell them himself.

[insomniadreams88]

I've realized what bothers me the most about using "genuine" for Oliver/Susan. Genuine = real. Felicity was with Billy - who was a good guy - for 9 episodes of S5 time and before the season began and never answered if that was "real." (I suspect the answer would have been no given her inability to call him her BF and the look to the red pen.) But Oliver is going to have a "genuine" relationship with the shady reporter after, what, 3 episodes? 

[tangerine95]

Yeah that bothers me too and it's bad wording like 90% of everything WM says this season but I really think it just means it's not fake like just for info and it's not just a one time hook up like Isabel was. I'm pretty sure we're supposed to think Felicity cared about Billy too but it still wasn't real at least in the way Oliver asked her if it was. 

[Sunshine]

"Her heart is broken in that last moment for Oliver and for Malone and for herself."  "Felicity has set her sights on Prometheus" Mericles makes clear.   Felicity "is going to meet some people who are both tied a bit to her past but also very much tied to this new future she's contemplating and that's going to draw her away from the team and lead her to do somethings that are pretty morally questionable." - WM TVLine 12/11/16

"Malone's death uncorks what Felicity bottles up (re: Havenrock).  Events in 510-512 force her to re-examine her life (or lack of) as of late". - BFS twitter 12/12/16

5.10 She's skeptical of "Laurel".  Oliver is more open and accepting.  At some point Felicity is in danger.  Turns out BS is in cahoots with Prometheus. 

5.11 No clue.  There is an all boys road trip to find Tina .  Maybe she objects to the trip or Oliver cuts her out because she's not completely on board (similar to treatment in 5.04 with Diggle rescue)?

5.12 Oliver's relationship with Susan is going to put people in harms way whether via Bratva or Prometheus.  (I might be wrong but doesn't Oliver get attacked and his office shot up in this episode?)

Felicity is dealing with an immense amount of guilt (Havenrock) and probably anger (towards Prometheus).  Oliver is utilizing questionable judgement (all regarding women).  He also appears to be moving on with his life.  (Susan may or may not cause her to reexamine her feelings/stance regarding Oliver.)  She has nothing going on in her life besides being a vigilante.  Sounds to me like beginning in 5.13 she's going to be doing things her way. I'm thinking Team Arrow is going to be without her services for a while.  Curtis will fill in and it'll be put down as her needing time to grieve so no one will really notice what's up with her.  We'll probably still get some Felicity & Curtis scenes.  Otherwise I'm expecting Felicity & her cohorts.  It makes more sense to me than Felicity leading the team astray when something Prometheus related comes up in order to "protect" them.  She's not betraying the team if she's not hindering and/or lying to them.   The plan might be to hire someone to take out Prometheus.  She has money from her Palmer stock but she might have to do some other things for money - hacking, maybe brokering information in order to hire an assassin.  Wonder how long this arc goes on and if the team figures it out by trying to stop some "transaction" she puts in play. I think standard arcs are 3-5 episodes.

I really, really don't like the idea of Felicity working with the team at the same time she might be working against them for their own good.  If she's"going dark" I'd just as soon it be on her own and not played as a direct betrayal of Team Arrow.  Are we going to get an episode in this arc where Felicity is VOTW?          

[ComicFan777]

It bothers me that Oliver decides to have a real relationship so soon after killing Felicity's chance to have something real.  I know Billy was never real for Felicity, but still...the whole thing just rubs me the wrong way.  It would have been better if writers just had both of them have the chance to move on at the same time instead of how this is going down.  It just makes me feel awful thinking that Felicity is hurting so much while Oliver is going to be in his happy Susan bubble.

Edited January 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Mellowyellow]

Yup that really irks me and proves that Felicity meant/means jackall to him despite his speeches and heart eyes. 

The depressing thing is I think all these things that you guys have brought up only bother us shippers and Felicity fans and they don't care what we think so it doesn't look like it'll change anytime soon. 

My other gripe is if they had to give him a LI why do it with such a mean girl. Susan acts like the ultimate mean girl. Not sure what they want to achieve by having their hero date a bitch.

[tangerine95]

Tbh it's hard for me to speculate about Felicity's dark storyline because they have such a tendency to oversell especially Felicity's storylines. Like the way they talked about the Havenrock arc I seriously though Felicity was going to be basically depressed while putting on a happy face and that it was going to be explored that way.I mean words like PTSD, breakdown, drowning in guilt etc were used and at one point I think WM said it lasts for the first 9 eps. It ended up being a couple of scenes and wrapped up in two episodes.So this whole Felicity going darker could be the same tho I really hope it isn't. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by tangerine95

[Sunshine]

Yeah. I'm not sure it'll amount to much. It might get as much air time as Diggle's arc got in 5.01-5.04 (under 5 minutes an episode).  I really don't want it to play out as her working against the team while working with the team - my greatest fear.  Have we had any villains not connected to Church or Prometheus this year?

I need more spoilers.  You know, ones that aren't repeats of what we've already been told. :-)       

Edited January 3, 2017 by Sunshine

[Cleanqueen]

Im probably the only one who was satisfied with how the Havenrock story was dealt with, I don't think it needed to extend beyond 5x04 and I am more interested in this second arc because its a result of Havenrock as well. SO instead of her feeling guilty she is doing something with that grief.

[Chaser]

Watch Felicity's storyline be literal. She goes to 'dark' alleys. She goes to 'dark' clubs. She goes to the 'dark'net. It's not an emotional journey, she just goes to 'dark places'. Lol

[insomniadreams88]

They might just show Felicity working on something on her computer for a few episodes and not telling anyone what it is. Then the others will find out, we'll have that "what have you been doing/why didn't you tell us" scene and then it'll be done/pushed to the background. 

What I really need are spoilers about Thea, Lance and Rory. Anything at this point that has to do only with them. 

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

5.12 Oliver's relationship with Susan is going to put people in harms way whether via Bratva or Prometheus.  (I might be wrong but doesn't Oliver get attacked and his office shot up in this episode?)

The shots from the mayor's office with the bullet holes in his desk were from 513 I think, although no idea on the context (plus the mysterious person lying on the couch).

11 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

Felicity is dealing with an immense amount of guilt (Havenrock) and probably anger (towards Prometheus).  Oliver is utilizing questionable judgement (all regarding women).  He also appears to be moving on with his life.  (Susan may or may not cause her to reexamine her feelings/stance regarding Oliver.)  She has nothing going on in her life besides being a vigilante.  Sounds to me like beginning in 5.13 she's going to be doing things her way. I'm thinking Team Arrow is going to be without her services for a while.  Curtis will fill in and it'll be put down as her needing time to grieve so no one will really notice what's up with her.  We'll probably still get some Felicity & Curtis scenes.  Otherwise I'm expecting Felicity & her cohorts.  It makes more sense to me than Felicity leading the team astray when something Prometheus related comes up in order to "protect" them.  She's not betraying the team if she's not hindering and/or lying to them.   The plan might be to hire someone to take out Prometheus.  She has money from her Palmer stock but she might have to do some other things for money - hacking, maybe brokering information in order to hire an assassin.  Wonder how long this arc goes on and if the team figures it out by trying to stop some "transaction" she puts in play. I think standard arcs are 3-5 episodes.

I really, really don't like the idea of Felicity working with the team at the same time she might be working against them for their own good.  If she's"going dark" I'd just as soon it be on her own and not played as a direct betrayal of Team Arrow.  Are we going to get an episode in this arc where Felicity is VOTW?          

I don't think it would be in opposition to Team Arrow, more like tangent to in a way. Like, maybe the team would be planning to save someone or figure out why/how Prometheus is doing what he's doing while Felicity would be more focused on actually eliminating Prometheus, no questions asked in the most brutal way possible. I think she'll still be with the team though, since there's at least one photo of OTA together in the lair, but that doesn't say much. To me, I see it probably more of her going behind the team and teaming up with people who have looser morals than Team Arrow and just not telling the team about it. Then, once the secret comes out, like running into Vigilante who's after Prometheus after being sent there by Felicity, then you get some sort of confrontation scene then a wrap-up scene later on. No betrayal or anything, just a confrontation between Oliver and Felicity.

Just now, Sunshine said:

Have we had any villains not connected to Church or Prometheus this year?        

Idk about villains like VOTW, but paps mentioned seeing China White back for Arrow around the 512/513 timeline

Just now, Cleanqueen said:

Im probably the only one who was satisfied with how the Havenrock story was dealt with, I don't think it needed to extend beyond 5x04 and I am more interested in this second arc because its a result of Havenrock as well. SO instead of her feeling guilty she is doing something with that grief.

I wasn't completely satisfied, but I was satisfied for what it did and I thought it was at least respectful and didn't put the blame on Felicity (which I was worried about). And it kind of screamed set-up to me, so I was also just waiting to see if it was going to carry over to something else, and it looks like it might, so I'm willing to wait and see.

[Sunshine]

22 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

It bothers me that Oliver decides to have a real relationship so soon after killing Felicity's chance to have something real.  I know Billy was never real for Felicity, but still...the whole thing just rubs me the wrong way.  It would have been better if writers just had both of them have the chance to move on at the same time instead of how this is going down.  It just makes me feel awful thinking that Felicity is hurting so much while Oliver is going to be in his happy Susan bubble.

I'm sure this doesn't help but there are BNF metas out there where this is a good thing for Oliver & Felicity.  The reasoning is it shows growth on Oliver's part in that he recognizes that he needs to move on with his life and isn't trying to force anything with Felicity.   He'd be all in with Felicity if she only gave him the right encouragement.  Susan is needed for Felicity to realize what she truly wants with/from Oliver.   

[Chaser]

Because I find Oliver incredibly stupid with the Reporter, I'm actively going to be ignoring his actions in regards to her so I can try and enjoy the Olicity reunion. 

[statsgirl]

Yeah, I've read those metas and they need to take their Olicity shipping glasses off for a while.  Maybe Oliver should move on with his life, but not now, not when he's just killed a good and innocent man.  Personally I think he should be wracked with guilt over it, not seeking to bed the warm body who has been stalking him.   The fact that he just killed Felicity's chance to move on makes it 1000x worse.  IMO, there is no way he should be getting into a relationship with 'genuine feelings' right now.

The corollary, that this is a good thing for Felicity because she can get jealous of Susan and realize that she really does want to be with Oliver, is just as bad.  The reason that she split up with Oliver remains -- that he wasn't the partner she wanted who was really be a partner -- and unless Oliver grows and stops lying and keeping secrets, or Felicity decides she's willing to settle for what Oliver gives her rather than the relationship she really wants, they're just a break up waiting to happen again.  Can you tell that the idea of Oliver getting into a real relationship just having killed Billy makes me ragey?

I'm thinking there will be no real storyine for Thea or Lance until they finish up with the n00bs and nuBC and everything else. Hopefully it will be something worthwhile for the actors.  Until then, they will mark time propping up other people's storylines.

Brian Ford Sullivan tweeted that Felicity''s dark storyline was going to involve the Havenrock feelings she hasn't dealt with yet but I'm not holding my breath.  Poor girl's been kidnapped, shot at, paralyzed, regained her ability to walk, lied to, lost her fiance, had to go through a fake wedding, lost Laurel, failed to prevent 10,000 people from being fried by DD and had her boyfriend killed by her ex-fiance in the past year.  It's starting to make Oliver's season 4 flashbacks look like a walk in the park.

Edited January 3, 2017 by statsgirl

[insomniadreams88]

6 minutes ago, Sunshine said:

I'm sure this doesn't help but there are BNF metas out there where this is a good thing for Oliver & Felicity.  The reasoning is it shows growth on Oliver's part in that he recognizes that he needs to move on with his life and isn't trying to force anything with Felicity.   He'd be all in with Felicity if she only gave him the right encouragement.  Susan is needed for Felicity to realize what she truly wants with/from Oliver.   

I don't get why it's a good thing to see Oliver opening up to someone else when he couldn't do the same with Felicity. Is she supposed to see that and go, "Yay, he could talk to this shady reporter but he couldn't talk to me last year about his son?" (FYI if they have Oliver tell Susan about William - not that I think he will - I will rage.)

And while I didn't want to see Oliver doing anything like forcing Felicity into another fake wedding (I'm still annoyed about that and Diggle and Thea siding with him), I did want to see him making it clear he meant it when he said she's his "always" and didn't forget about that the moment she gave back the ring again. 

[ComicFan777]

At this point, I don't know what's he going to learn from being with Susan - at least anything relevant to the issues that Oliver and Felicity had when they were together.  Inclusion seems like a weird one to learn from being with Susan considering the circumstances.  Right now, I am just hoping to see him learn to be a better friend. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Sunshine]

19 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Im probably the only one who was satisfied with how the Havenrock story was dealt with, I don't think it needed to extend beyond 5x04 and I am more interested in this second arc because its a result of Havenrock as well. SO instead of her feeling guilty she is doing something with that grief.

I am right there with you.

[statsgirl]

7 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

At this point, I don't know what he going to learn from being with Susan - at least anything relevant to the issues that Oliver and Felicity had when they were together.  Inclusion seems like a weird one to learn from being with Susan considering the circumstances.  Right now, I am just hoping to see him learn to be a better friend. 

Opening up to Susan, who he barely knows and who has already stabbed Thea in the back, makes him look even stupider.

Edited January 3, 2017 by statsgirl