Spoiler Discussion Thread

[emarasmoak]

Wow, @quarks, that summary of love interests in the Flarrowverse is really impressive.

The only character that I cannot see in the list and which could be interesting to discuss is Lyla. I don't know if she was teased as a potential love interest for Digg initially (I binged-watched seasons 1 and 2 and the first episodes of 3 during the hiatus for season 3). I know that while watching the episodes I saw sparks between them when she scolded him for trying to use her to hunt down Deadshot. When they told each other that they were single again she was clearly being treated as a potential LI. I think that all this happened in S1 but I don't remember the episodes. I remember that we discovered that she was her ex-wife in S2 during the Russia episode (S02E06?). I also noticed that "Carly" appeared in a different show (OUAT) but I am not sure if this happened during S2 of Arrow (and I don't know if she left the show or was replaced because of their better chemistry Felicity-style, which I love because I didn't like Digg with his sister-in-law because eww... relationship that of course was never mentioned to Andy when he came back to live).

I would be grateful for any info about how Lyla ended up one of the most loved couples in Arrow.

Speaking of love interests, I could never understand why the horrendous douche-DJ that was Thea's LI ended up being the lead for another show (The Shannara Chronicles, that you may know because Manu Bennet is there).

[Morrigan2575]

That quote in the spoiler thread certainly sounds like it could be Chase. His character description included much of the same information except it implied (or we inferred) Bratva actions for Chase (Oliver killed his parents or something?)

ETA: Found the casting description for "James"

Quote

Now TVLine has learned that Arrow is also adding the series regular role of “James,” an “irrepressibly charming” contemporary of Oliver’s who is described as “a man on a mission” — out as he is to avenge a tragic, violent loss from his own, years-ago past.

So yeah, we inferred Bratva but, could mean S1.

The implication was that Church was created as a result of S1 Hood/Oliver. 

However, maybe we're going to have a legit Evil Partnership/Team Up between Church amd Chase? That would be really cool, they kind of tried that with Slade/Blood but it wasn't a partnership evil team really. More like Villain and conflicted stooge.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[tv echo]

Lexi Alexander will not be directing an episode this season...

[bijoux]

I hope they at least get the director who did 411.

[tv echo]

Charlotte Brandstrom directed 411.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, emarasmoak said:

Wow, @quarks, that summary of love interests in the Flarrowverse is really impressive.

The only character that I cannot see in the list and which could be interesting to discuss is Lyla. I don't know if she was teased as a potential love interest for Digg initially (I binged-watched seasons 1 and 2 and the first episodes of 3 during the hiatus for season 3). I know that while watching the episodes I saw sparks between them when she scolded him for trying to use her to hunt down Deadshot. When they told each other that they were single again she was clearly being treated as a potential LI. I think that all this happened in S1 but I don't remember the episodes. I remember that we discovered that she was her ex-wife in S2 during the Russia episode (S02E06?). I also noticed that "Carly" appeared in a different show (OUAT) but I am not sure if this happened during S2 of Arrow (and I don't know if she left the show or was replaced because of their better chemistry Felicity-style, which I love because I didn't like Digg with his sister-in-law because eww... relationship that of course was never mentioned to Andy when he came back to live).

I would be grateful for any info about how Lyla ended up one of the most loved couples in Arrow.

Speaking of love interests, I could never understand why the horrendous douche-DJ that was Thea's LI ended up being the lead for another show (The Shannara Chronicles, that you may know because Manu Bennet is there).

 

I don't think that anyone hated Carly or had an issue with the chemistry between Diggle and Carly, but the fan response to Carly ended up being mostly "meh," with a few fans objecting to the sister-in-law angle. Plus, as a waitress, Carly didn't have a huge potential connection to a semi-secret large government organization that could draw Arrow into more plots. As a result, Carly was quietly written off the show between seasons 1 and 2.  A number of guest stars have hopped between Arrow and OUAT, so Christie Laing showing up in yet another thankless role on OUAT was probably just part of that trend.

Lyla wasn't originally promoted as a love interest. But, with Carly off the show, Lyla was the one woman who had interacted with Diggle separately from Oliver, and she had an in-show reason for not appearing in every episode, and could link Arrow up with what at the time was presumably meant to be multiple Suicide Squad episodes, so turning her into Diggle's love interest made sense. And by turning her into Diggle's ex-wife, Arrow didn't have to waste time showing the two of them dating. That was only her second appearance on the show, but it was her second season on Arrow, so she didn't quite fit all that smoothly into any of the previous categories. 

[tv echo]

I'll never forget how Lyla's appearance changed in the Arrow tie-in comics from Season 1 to Season 2.5...

-- In the Season 1 tie-in comic book, Lyla made her first appearance resembling Sara's Canary.  She had long, blonde, curly hair and wore a cleavage-baring, v-necked top.

-- In the Season 2.5 tie-in comic book, Lyla had shoulder-length, straight brown hair, and was four months' pregnant with Diggle's daughter.

Edited July 19, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

That thing David is always saying that Diggle is Oliver five years down the road might also have something to do with it. Dig's relationship was supposed to mirror Oliver's main romantic relationship.

Originally they were totally doing Diggle/Carly as the "right way" of portraying a relationship that involved sibling swapping. It was there to contrast Oliver's disastrous Lance sisters swapping. When they phased out L/O, Dig's romantic life = example was made useless, so Carly and the ~drama of Diggle brothers swapping also became useless.

[Morrigan2575]

That's rather interesting, never gave it mich thought but you could be right.  They went from Diggle in love with his Sister in Law (sibling swap on Carly's side). To Diggle getting back with his ex wife who happens to be in the same "business" as him.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

Charlotte Brandstrom directed 411.

Thanks. I was too lazy to look up her name, I just remember being really impressed with her work. I did 't even figure it out at first that what helped her episode flow was that she let the scenes linger for a few extra seconds.

[statsgirl]

I'm sad Lexi Alexander isn't going to be directing (she's miles better than BamBam because she goes for the feelings, not the stunts).

The Oliver/Laurel_Diggle/Carly and Oliver/Felicity_Diggle/Lyla parallels are interesting, although I'm not sure that they were thinking of Diggle's love life as Oliver's 5 years down the road back in season 1.  But,  AMA was also supposed to be a one-shot who ended up having more chemistry with DR than the actress who played Carly, like EBR.

I wonder if they have yet figured out that sibling swapping is not attractive to most of the audience.

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

Based on the EnStars spoiler (assuming it's true), I wonder if they're going to set up Tobias Church as the presumed Big Bad early on, but then it'll turn out that Adrian Chase is the stealth Big Bad for S5 - like, he starts off as a friendly, frenemy-type adversary for Oliver but you think he'll end up becoming an ally to Team Arrow, and then there's a 'shocking' reveal - perhaps at the end of the mid-season finale - when we find out his real agenda is to destroy the Green Arrow.

Is the actor good enough to carry off that kind of role?  John Barrowman in s1, Manu Bennett and Neal McD all were but Matt Nable in s3 was a terrible bust as the Big Bad.

[Angel12d]

So, according to DR, Diggle is wounded in the first couple of episodes of s5. Or maybe just the first one. Not sure. Would explain why he's not been on set much at all.

[dtissagirl]

But is it a physical wound or an emotional one?

Edited July 19, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Angel12d]

Hmm. Good point. Is he gonna be like s1 Oliver with PTSD?

[bijoux]

I imagined emotionally but it could go either way. I don't think he's in service at the tart of the season going by this tweet.

https://twitter.com/david_ramsey/status/755475591080488960?s=09

[statsgirl]

Wouldn't a physical wound make more sense?  He re-enlisted because of an emotional wound (again).

Having a physical one would force him to confront everything he ran away from at the end of s4.  And account for those hospital spoilers.

Edited July 19, 2016 by statsgirl

[kismet]

Well I've been calling Dig being "wounded" or hurt at the beginning of the season since he left in May. It's nice to see one of my predictions coming true.

I feel like he will definitely have an emotional wound that has festered since s4, but the wound DR is talking about will probably be physical. They need a reason to sideline him for the newbies, so a physical wound would be the most logical. There also needs to be a legit reason for him leaving the military and an injury allows him to leave without a lot of complications. Most importantly, a physical wound is the least emotionally complicated. The writers like to keep the emotions pretty simple at the start of the season.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm going with physical wound, which gets him an honorable discharge from army and sent home.  Army problem solved

[Angel12d]

RE: TV Guide, I think we were all correct in thinking SC will have a group of wannabe vigilantes running around. And I bet Laurel's last words will be something about inspiring people or keeping up their legacy or whatever. She was probably strangely prophetic on her death bed even though she didn't know she was gonna die. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Angel12d

[kismet]

Well I can't wait to hear what LL's last words were considering she didn't know she was going to die. Hopefully it's a fashion tip. Maybe she'll help OQ get rid of the shoulder pads. That is a legacy I would love to see.

[thegirlsleuth]

Those spoilers don't set me on fire. It seems like they are adding more masks, which doesn't thrill me.  Also the comment about leaving Oliver and Felicity ambiguous makes me fear for the upcoming love triangles I expect as well as Felicity's characterization.  It feels like season 3 v2.0 to me.

[apinknightmare]

Just now, thegirlsleuth said:

Those spoilers don't set me on fire. It seems like they are adding more masks, which doesn't thrill me.  Also the comment about leaving Oliver and Felicity ambiguous makes me fear for the upcoming love triangles I expect as well as Felicity's characterization.  It feels like season 3 v2.0 to me.

This has no bearing on future BS regarding their relationship or dating other people, but this isn't a new talking point. WM mentioned leaving them in an ambiguous place in the press after the finale too, IIRC. I assume she thought they were keeping people guessing, but SA nixed that pretty early on when he said he didn't believe they were together in the first ep (and then dropped that comment about Felicity having a boyfriend).

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

This has no bearing on future BS regarding their relationship or dating other people, but this isn't a new talking point. WM mentioned leaving them in an ambiguous place in the press after the finale too, IIRC. I assume she thought they were keeping people guessing, but SA nixed that pretty early on when he said he didn't believe they were together in the first ep (and then dropped that comment about Felicity having a boyfriend).

I didn't really read anything intoher comment. They did leave the situation ambiguous. To me that just means they left it ambiguous so they didn't have to squeeze something into 423. Instead they plan (IMO) on dealing woth it in 5A.

[kismet]

There is a part of me that sorta wants to see if the writers can actually write a decent love triangle. They have tried multiple times and fell on their face every single time. I'm thinking love triangle might be the underdog plot line to root for. I would prefer if it was set around TQ, but I can only take what they give. If they are going to stall on O/F, might as well see if they can make the waiting time pleasant & mundane like rocking chairs in airport terminals. I prefer triangles over melodramatic angst.

[Starfish35]

That bit about another Black Canary....I'm back to thinking it's going to be Sara.  

[apinknightmare]

Just now, Starfish35 said:

That bit about another Black Canary....I'm back to thinking it's going to be Sara.  

Yeah, I think so too. They probably think those "vehemently opposed" to it will be okay since, hey, she's been there before!

Maybe those were Laurel's last words? Wanting Sara to have her legacy? She packed so much in those last few minutes before she shuffled off this mortal coil!

[Angel12d]

Regarding O/F, I wish I had more faith in the writers as some do here but I don't. 

And I'm with @Starfish35 and @apinknightmare, I think Sara will be BC again.

[Chaser]

If LL tosses the name back to Sara, I will laugh so hard.

[Angel12d]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

If LL tosses the name back to Sara, I will laugh so hard.

Haha, at least her last words would have been about her sister instead of how Oliver was the love of her life. *Still not over that garbage*

[Thundercatmary]

I really loved Sara as BC, as long as they don't try and pair her with Oliver again. Speaking of that I want to see more of Sara and Nyssa. :D

[Chaser]

7 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Haha, at least her last words would have been about her sister instead of how Oliver was the love of her life. *Still not over that garbage*

For me it's like.... What was the point? It would really make me believe the past two seasons were about fulfilling KCs contract. It would also make me think that they want Sara Lance to be remembered as the Flarrowverse Black Canary. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Chaser

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Haha, at least her last words would have been about her sister instead of how Oliver was the love of her life. *Still not over that garbage*

I like to forget that ever happened for secondhand embarrassment reasons. Ick ick ick. 

[kismet]

I betcha the cherry on top will be that Sara's Middle name in "Dinah". So it can achieve some type of comic canon.

So it will always be a Dinah Lance that was the Canary of any color on Flarrowverse.

[Chaser]

Sara was the Black Canary origin story all along. 

Oh how I would love that. :-)

In other news, nothing on the mains again. 

I was thinking about Oliver and the Reporter and the possible relationship there. I would love it if they totally threw a curve ball and the Reporter tries to get to Oliver thru Felicity. Female friendship develops, she doesn't get romantically involved with Oliver and she becomes part of the regular cast. 

[Starfish35]

11 minutes ago, Chaser said:

It would also make me think that they want Sara Lance to be remembered as the Flarrowverse Black Canary. 

I'm fine with that. :)

But really, who else could it be?  I'd kind of given up on the idea, since it seemed like they were going to let the name end with Laurel.  But that answer WM gave really does strongly imply there's going to be another BC, and Sara's the only logical candidate, since we know that Baby Canary is going to be Artemis.   

Quote

Sara was the Black Canary origin story all along. 

Oh how I would love that. :-)

Me too. :)

Edited July 20, 2016 by Starfish35

[Angel12d]

I don't think it can be anyone else. Sara had all the makings of BC anyway. And they've definitely fleshed out her character more by sending her over to LoT. It always made more sense to me to have a BC who was off with her own team but could come back every now and then to help out. 

[thegirlsleuth]

Caity mentioned somewhere--the upfronts?--that she would be getting yet another costume.  BC would make sense.

Regarding the "ambiguous" comment, I was worried the ambiguity was going to keep going into season five.  If it has the holding pattern quality of the O/F relationship in season three, I won't be thrilled.  If the new dude is named Ed Raymond I will stop watching.  

[Chaser]

In the LOT section they asked if KC could show up as Black Canary (since she is a founding member of the JLA), he said no because of other plans they have. 

Possibly meaning Sara will be the BC that forms a Justice group?

[Sakura12]

I would love it if Laurel's last words were Tell Sara she can be the Black Canary. 

BC is one of the members of the Justice Society. Then they can reveal Sara's full name as Sara Dinah Lance. 

[kismet]

Yeah, Dinah being Sara's middle name is what I said a few posts up.

The only reason I would be upset if LL's last words were tell SL she can be the BC is because she didn't know it was going to be her last words. Also SL is off traveling in time, so why would LL tell OQ to tell SL?

It makes no sense, but little about LL did, so I guess its par for the course.

If SL were to take back the throne, I would prefer she choose to do it on her own - not because LL gave her blessing.

[AyChihuahua]

God that would make Dinah look douchey. Both her daughters have her first name as their middle name? I don't have a problem with a maiden name being used as several kids' middle names, but a first name? Yeesh. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, AyChihuahua said:

God that would make Dinah look douchey. 

Do we not already have stacks of evidence that she's a terrible person? Like, naming both of her daughters after herself probably wouldn't even rank at this point. 

[AyChihuahua]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Do we not already have stacks of evidence that she's a terrible person? Like, naming both of her daughters after herself probably wouldn't even rank at this point. 

I know; I know. Just...yeesh.

[smoaksmichaelas]

4 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

God that would make Dinah look douchey. Both her daughters have her first name as their middle name? I don't have a problem with a maiden name being used as several kids' middle names, but a first name? Yeesh. 

I thought Dinah was Laurel's first name?

[kismet]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

God that would make Dinah look douchey. Both her daughters have her first name as their middle name? I don't have a problem with a maiden name being used as several kids' middle names, but a first name? Yeesh. 

Well LL's first name is actually Dinah. So she did one the first and one the middle. So she mixed it up.

There are a lot of jrs & numericals. George Foreman had "george" in every one of his kids names. Some people hubris knows no bounds. She does seem a little full of herself.

[AyChihuahua]

1 minute ago, smoaksmichaelas said:

I thought Dinah was Laurel's first name?

Yeah, whoops. So Dinah Lance (nee whatever), Dinah Laurel Lance, and Sara Dinah Lance. Suddenly my mother's very hippy-ish/possibly high naming of me seems less asinine.

[Sakura12]

Dinah's a terrible mother, so I wouldn't put it past her to name her first born daughter Dinah then give her second daughter Dinah as a middle name. Then not care about either of them. 

I was just going with that for the because comics crowd. Sara's middle name can be Drake as well to tie into the comics. 

Or Sara can just wear black again and go by Canary. I'll be happy with that. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Sakura12

[smoaksmichaelas]

Well the TV guide spoilers?? kind of got me excited about S5. Good thing SDCC is a few days away. Praying for some good material for Felicity & Thea. 

Can somebody help me out. The big bad is the Tobias Church guy right? Or is it the ADA guy?

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, smoaksmichaelas said:

Can somebody help me out. The big bad is the Tobias Church guy right? Or is it the ADA guy?

Based on WM's comments, I'm pretty sure the ultimate big bad is the DA. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Based on WM's comments, I'm pretty sure the ultimate big bad is the DA. 

That's a pretty big role for a no-name-ish actor. Is he good enough for that big of a role, vs. the name actor playing Tobias? I have never seen any of his appearances. It'd be kind of the reverse of S2...with 22 other newbies standing in for Roy.