Spoiler Discussion Thread

[kismet]

Whatever the strategy was for emphasizing Lauriver in the last few EPs, it failed onso many levels and really ruined a lot.

Back to spoilers, I really feel like the formal wear on Lian You will be result of a hallucination like wigh Constatine or magical transport during a special party. Like when the death eaters attacked the Weasley wedding and the Potter trio apparitated in their formal wear.

[looptab]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Ok, having seen the promo, I think I know why Arrow was so intent on emphasizing the whole OOOH LAUREL AND OLIVER ARE SO IN LOVE stuff, no matter how that affected season two in retrospect - they want us to believe that Oliver genuinely will go to any lengths to avenge her, as he would for, say, Thea or Felicity.

[...]2) this episode JUST reminded us that Darhk has been conducting medical experiments on ACTUAL HUMANS and killing them in gas chambers. Surely that sort of thing should be enough to inspire Oliver to do whatever it takes to take Darhk down? 

Besides that, one can't even make the argument "Now it's personal". He shot his fiance and kidnapped his son. It was personal already. I really don't know what the point of this renewed interest in Loliver was. No idea whatsoever. I'd agree with the tying loose ends up - afterall, they were set as the main couple in the pilot. But then again, you could get rid of Raisa, why not that? 

[tangerine95]

I don't think the lauriver stuff in the fbs was anything other than a misguided attempt at fan service to Laurel fans tbh.I feel like that's what they think Laurel fans wanted most, any excuse for a lauriver kiss.And I think they also tried to show how differently Oliver dealt with being at Laurel's funeral compared to Tommy's and show that growth. It seemed more like killing DD for Oliver is stopping him from hurting anyone else than it is avenging Laurel imo.And they also made it a team arrow thing to want to take down DD for what he did, rather than a personal thing for Oliver the way it was shown to be in 4.10 after Felicity got hurt.I feel like Oliver would have done the same for anyone on the team, they didn't need romantic relationship flashbacks for that.

Edited April 28, 2016 by tangerine95

[nksarmi]

28 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't think the lauriver stuff in the fbs was anything other than a misguided attempt at fan service to Laurel fans tbh.I feel like that's what they think Laurel fans wanted most, any excuse for a lauriver kiss.And I think they also tried to show how differently Oliver dealt with being at Laurel's funeral compared to Tommy's and show that growth. It seemed more like killing DD for Oliver is stopping him from hurting anyone else than it is avenging Laurel imo.And they also made it a team arrow thing to want to take down DD for what he did, rather than a personal thing for Oliver the way it was shown to be in 4.10 after Felicity got hurt.I feel like Oliver would have done the same for anyone on the team, they didn't need romantic relationship flashbacks for that.

I agree that it was misguided, but it just shows how badly they have handled Laurel and Oliver all along. It really bothers me that they retconned their own comics to shoe horn this in. I mean, I haven't read the comics, but we've been told they are canon. So to redo Tommy's funeral and not have Oliver give the eulogy - I mean, it just shows how poor an effort they put into making this story work.

And in the very episode where they are trying to elevate Laurel Lance to sainthood - they ruin her character in my eyes. Laurel was awful in season two, but the one thing that let me tolerate her was the head canon that she felt guilty for betraying Tommy with Oliver and then that Tommy died saving her life. This episode took that away.  She might have said she loved Tommy in this episode, but she definitely seemed at peace over his death when she said she was "really excited about the future."

I wonder if this was their way of giving KC what she always wanted when it came to Laurel. I really can't get over the fact that these last two episodes really match her head canon of Laurel and Oliver's relationship. Perhaps instead of a parting F-U, they felt like they were giving her the superhero/love interest farewell for the role she signed up to play. The fact that it ruined the character for most of us be damned.

[Chaser]

I can't believe someone actually wrote the line about being excited about the future. They are reminiscing about their dead friend. I've determined that Oliver's expression after the kiss was brought on by the realization that Laurel probably murdered Tommy for 'their future'.

[ComicFan777]

5 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I agree that it was misguided, but it just shows how badly they have handled Laurel and Oliver all along. It really bothers me that they retconned their own comics to shoe horn this in. I mean, I haven't read the comics, but we've been told they are canon. So to redo Tommy's funeral and not have Oliver give the eulogy - I mean, it just shows how poor an effort they put into making this story work.

If you're curious about the comics, you can find the scans here:

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/140299236173/luvsumtv-reblogged-your-post-oliverdant-i

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/143532231593/retcon-evidence

[nksarmi]

25 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

If you're curious about the comics, you can find the scans here:

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/140299236173/luvsumtv-reblogged-your-post-oliverdant-i

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/143532231593/retcon-evidence

See that was appropriate for the end of season two. Laurel in the comics was an appropriate reaction. What this episode did was gross compared to that.

[Belinea]

I will just say it like I think it: I have no idea what we were supposed to take away from the flashbacks. I didn't need them to tell me what happened in between S1-S2. It didn't add anything to me. Basically, even after Tommy's death Laurel still wanted Oliver and as always wanted to get that future she envisioned. But once again Oliver left her in the dust. Why she wasn't then a little mad in S2, I don't get. It is a weird storyline. Maybe I would have liked it if it would have not gone the romantic route but dealt with the friendship all these guys shared. Anything else would have probably been better.Tommy deserved better.

I still wonder why nobody seems to get Oliver is the GA. Laurel is the BC, he tells people about it. He is close to her. Why would he know and not know about the others? Could it be because he is part of the others? How stupid are these people in the town? I guess pretty stupid, since they haven't yet moved. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

The FBs made me think Oliver never really loved Laurel, not the contrary, lol. It seemed to me they showed Oliver felt towards Laurel the way she felt towards Tommy. Sure, neither of them were opposed to hooking up but it ended there. Laurel jumped Oliver when she got the chance and Oliver ran away when she started to talk about their future together.

I can buy Oliver wanting to avenge Laurel's death like he would do for any other team mate but I can't buy that he cared beyond that. I wouldn't be surprised if he said that he would do anything in response to someone (maybe Felicity) telling him they have to kill DD for Laurel and not because it's his first thought. Also DD showed he isn't playing around and he is more dangerous than ever. I don't think it will end up being that much about Laurel, but about saving the whole city in the very near future.

[bijoux]

I don't think they'll be portraying Oliver's hunt for DD to be motivated solely by Laurel in the slightest. He adds stopping DD from hurting anyone else in the promo.

[Genki]

^Agree, except I think it becomes about saving the country, (from that TV guide scan)

[HighwayFlower]

All the flash backs showed was that once again, Laurel was way more into Oliver then he ever was into her. 

[Morrigan2575]

So, Baby Canary is Starling from nu52 BoP.  I was all excited when i figured that out last night.

[kismet]

I know I read that they named it Starling City because it sounded nicer than Star City. But could the renaming back to Star City be because they want to use Starling for something else like the name of TA adjacent masked helpers?

Edited April 29, 2016 by kismet

[bijoux]

I'm too lazy to look for photos, but the white totem in the next episode is the yang to DD's idol's yin as far as I can tell. DD's is black with white detailing, the next week's thing is the opposite. I'm guessing it's about striking balance in that case.

[BkWurm1]

Ha, ha.  So Oliver likely will fight DD's darkness with the light?  He's Glinda the Good Witch!

[looptab]

I don't want Oliver to use magic..

.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, kismet said:

I know I read that they named it Starling City because it sounded nicer than Star City. But could the renaming back to Star City be because they want to use Starling for something else like the name of TA adjacent masked helpers?

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Starling is a person Evelyn Crawford, she's Dinah Drake's friend and BoP team member in the nu52 BoP title.

Renaming Starling City to Star City was about Comics. In the Comics OQ is in either Star City or Seattle. I doubt it had anything to do with Baby Canary eventually becoming Starling. Mostly because i don't think they plan that fsr ahead

[kismet]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Starling is a person Evelyn Crawford, she's Dinah Drake's friend and BoP team member in the nu52 BoP title.

Renaming Starling City to Star City was about Comics. In the Comics OQ is in either Star City or Seattle. I doubt it had anything to do with Baby Canary eventually becoming Starling. Mostly because i don't think they plan that fsr ahead

I think you answered a portion of the question, even if it was unclear (sorry). Basically, I know they changed the city back to Star City because of Comics. But now that they named dropped the girl who becomes "Starling" in the BoP52, I can't help but wonder if DC wanted them to drop Starling so that it could be used solely for the masked hero "Starling", who coincidentally got her roots in SC. I definitely do not believe that the writers plan or think that far ahead, but I know the legal depts & DC probably do, so I just wonder if it is just coincidental the name change.

[wonderwall]

2 things about that episode synopsis. 

1) I hate that they're reusing the whole Thea needs saving storyline. I'm bored already. The show really needs to make Thea into her own character instead of being just a plot device.

2) I'm super intrigued by Felicity teaming up with her father. I feel like this is not going to end well. But I'm also glad that her father isn't 100% pure evil.

[apinknightmare]

Either Noah isn't that bad, or he's working for someone who's worse than Darhk, haha. 

I hope he's not that bad, and that Felicity made a snap judgment about whatever it was she found in PT that implied he was stealing her tech. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

TA didn't film the finale right?

Based off of the white shirt, it looks like 22  & 23 covers a few days. I hope they don't kill off Felicitys Father.

Thea better save herself. I'm over it.

[wonderwall]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Either Noah isn't that bad, or he's working for someone who's worse than Darhk, haha.

I WANT THE LATTER. 

Sorry :p I know you want him to not be that bad... But I'd love for him to be bad with a side of good. Something I think the show wants Malcolm to be but fails miserably. 

Does that make sense?

[looptab]

As much as I'm intrigued by Felicity teaming up with her dad, I'm not looking forward to the team splitting up. :/

[nksarmi]

I would love it if Noah turned out to be run of the mill bad - but not evil mastermind bad. Like he's a selfish turd who had no noble intentions for abandoning his wife and daughter, really was trying to steal from Felicity, and is just working for some bad people for the paycheck - BUT when faced with "holy crap, I don't really want to destroy the world" type scenario - he comes through.

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I would love it if Noah turned out to be run of the mill bad - but not evil mastermind bad. Like he's a selfish turd who had no noble intentions for abandoning his wife and daughter, really was trying to steal from Felicity, and is just working for some bad people for the paycheck - BUT when faced with "holy crap, I don't really want to destroy the world" type scenario - he comes through.

Yeah, I could go for that, too. I just don't want him to be predictable Bad Dad. We already think that's what he is - more of it is just...meh. He can be a POS father and husband without being an evil bastard. 

[kismet]

What I fear with NK is a MM-redeux in which working with him is a calculated risk and then we have 2+ seasons of he's good, he's bad, he's a criminal, no he's just misunderstood. 

I'm all for having nebulous characters with shifting alliances, but the writing has proven that they can be rather crappy at writing these morally grey characters. In s1/2 they did a good job with MM & MQ. But then for some reason they felt the need to sanctify MM in s3 and have been wishy-washy & pretzeling ever since. I hope they do not do the same with NK.

I hope they have trained & honed up on their writing morally grey characters. Hopefully the writers watched some ALIAS for inspiration, they did nebulous parental figures well. I did like TAm acting in the previous episodes, so I have faith in him. I also hope that they use him sparingly in the next few seasons if this he's a bad guy but we still need his services from time to time works out. Nobody needs to wonder if NK became good and nobody feels the need to redeem him. I also don't need to see NK/TAm in every episode or so moving fwd. It's great that they are writing FS's Dad, but I feel like Bad Guy Daddy/Daughter issues have been covered ad nauseum with both TQ/MM & Nyssa/Ras. I also feel like Bad Dad, kid atoning for their sins have been covered by OQ s1, so again I don't need FS/NK the remix on either of those fronts.

[bijoux]

Practically all I see is Donna facing off with Noah. Yay!

I guess Thea ends up in that field where Glenn Winter's son took that photo and they're off to the rescue.

[AyChihuahua]

I cannot overstate how much I am over Thea in every possible way. She has needed saving more than Laurel now. It's RIDICULOUS. If she's that pitiful, she really should not be allowed to be a vigilante. Save your damn self for ONCE, Thea. I'm over her and her idiotic father issues, and I'm MASSIVELY over Oliver's ANYTHING-FOR-THEA bullshit obsession. OMG just fucking stop already. I would almost trade her for Laurel.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I cannot overstate how much I am over Thea in every possible way. She has needed saving more than Laurel now. It's RIDICULOUS. If she's that pitiful, she really should not be allowed to be a vigilante. Save your damn self for ONCE, Thea. I'm over her and her idiotic father issues, and I'm MASSIVELY over Oliver's ANYTHING-FOR-THEA bullshit obsession. OMG just fucking stop already. I would almost trade her for Laurel.

 

Let's not say things we can't take back.

[thegirlsleuth]

18 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

OMG just fucking stop already. I would almost trade her for Laurel.

If you say her name three times she is summoned.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

If you say her name three times she is summoned.

LOOL. We better have the Winchesters on speed dial to take care of that problem

[AyChihuahua]

I'm just saying, I REALLY don't like Thea, and I don't like any of the relationships she has going on. 

[calliope1975]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOOL. We better have the Winchesters on speed dial to take care of that problem

Especially now that magic/supernatural's been introduced to the show. Salt and burn those bones, people!

[Angel12d]

Just read the 422 episode synopsis. I am SO BORED of Oliver needing to rush to save Thea. We have done this, many times. We did it all through s3 and in parts of s4 with the bloodlust thing. ENOUGH ALREADY. Ugh. So over it. 

Intrigued by what's going to happen with Felicity's dad and whether he'll just be an average deadbeat dad/bad guy or the villain of all villains. Who knows? I wonder if him being really truly bad would be a repeat of Diggle's brother Andy though, unless they want that parallel. Hmm...

 

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

 I would almost trade her for Laurel.

Woah now. Let's not be hasty. Be careful what you wish for please. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[Belinea]

Maybe they could save money and just show scenes from last season's episodes with this description. Why is Thea once again in danger. She won't die. WM said she won't die. So why repeat the same storyline. One at that which wasn't even that great when they did it last season.

I believe that the last 2 episodes will be done in a day. So how much can actually be accomplished character development wise?

[Angel12d]

Unless this time they don't actually save Thea. I don't mean that she'll die but maybe she goes off with Anarky or something. There's always been that question of whether she's more a Merlyn than a Queen.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Angel12d

[AyChihuahua]

20 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Unless this time they don't actually save Thea. I don't mean that she'll die but maybe she goes off with Anarky or something. There's always been that question of whether she's more a Merlyn than a Queen.

Go away with Anarky, Thea, he's a really nice guy. Go REALLY REALLY FAR AWAY. And please feel free to stay there forever and ever.

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, AyChihuahua said:

I'm just saying, I REALLY don't like Thea, and I don't like any of the relationships she has going on. 

That's because her relationships are with the worst people... Malcolm (who's the worst), Alex (who's the most boring character ever).

She barely even has a connection to Oliver right now because they rarely interact anymore. 

The problem with Thea is that the writers constantly use her as a plot device. She's not independent at all and she's basically stuck on an island just like how Felicity was stuck on Palmer island last year. The writers are giving her relationship with side characters and aren't even bothering to integrate her into the team.

It's not really a reflection on the character, imo, I think it's a reflection on the writers because I think Thea has a lot of potential as  a character.

[AyChihuahua]

I also don't like her relationship with Oliver. I find it creepy. He's obsessed with her. I get only blood relative, blah blah, she's younger, yada yada yada, but they weren't like that in S1 or S2. The obsessive shit started in S3 and is continuing into S4 and it makes me really uncomfortable. It also bores the shit out of me. How many times have we seen this already? Oliver drops everything to SAVE THEA!!!!!!! Like 14 times? It's tired.

Felicity, on the other hand, has mostly saved herself or has been in the same danger everyone is. It's really just Thea they damsel the crap out of now. Even Laurel hasn't been damseled in ages. Thea is damseled/wishy-washy over her scumbag biodad (who she's seriously broken all ties with like SIX TIMES) in every other episode. I am long past giving a crap and want them to just pull the damn trigger already.

Plus, she's a vigilante, too. If she sucks that bad at her job to where she's in danger of dying several times a season, well, maybe she should consider a career change. 

[Angel12d]

29 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

That's because her relationships are with the worst people... Malcolm (who's the worst), Alex (who's the most boring character ever).

She barely even has a connection to Oliver right now because they rarely interact anymore. 

The problem with Thea is that the writers constantly use her as a plot device. She's not independent at all and she's basically stuck on an island just like how Felicity was stuck on Palmer island last year. The writers are giving her relationship with side characters and aren't even bothering to integrate her into the team.

It's not really a reflection on the character, imo, I think it's a reflection on the writers because I think Thea has a lot of potential as  a character.

Totally agree. They need to remove her from Malcolm and start giving her scenes with Felicity and Diggle, maybe even a few with Quentin seeing as they were the closest to Laurel. Thea/Donna scenes would be good too. There's potential there and they haven't used it. 

[AyChihuahua]

I was really looking forward to Thea's stuff this season. SO disappointed. I think Willa is fine, and I buy her/her stuntwoman as action stars. But I NEED them to stop writing her as a DiD, and I NEED them to cut back, quite a bit, on Oliver's fixation on her. I'm mostly okay with Oliver again and I don't even hate Quentin as much as I once did, so if they'd stop writing her as an object, I might stop hating her and wanting her dead.

[tangerine95]

I agree the Thea in danger again stuff is getting beyond old by now.And it's never even used as a chance for Thea to save herself or for her own development. Its always used to pull Oliver into annoying LoA or Malcolm storylines.I like the Thea Oliver relationship and I do get why he was so concerned with saving her last season since she really was in a lot of danger but they really do need to stop playing the same story beat with them.But I do wish we saw more Thea and Oliver scenes that aren't about Malcolm or Thea in danger and are just them bonding like normal siblings. She also really needs more scenes with Diggle and Felicity in order to feel like an actual part of the team and now that the Laurel block has been removed hopefully she will. For me the biggest problem with Thea is Malcolm. The moment he shows up it becomes all about him and keeping him relevant through Thea.The best thing for her would be if they actually kill off Malcolm imo.

[way2interested]

Makes me wonder if, yet again, Thea's being in danger is somehow related to Malcolm. If Felicity, her dad, and Curtis are busy with trying to take down Darhk, then what does Thea need rescuing from? Unless it is Anarky coming back and it's just related to that, since I'm thinking that Malcolm might actually be with Curtis and Felicity given EK's snapchats with both of them around filming for 421/422. 

[tarotx]

Someone has to be in danger. That's the way these shows work. The problem is that the in show world is small( and just got smaller). We need to build up the city and have small support people we care about so that the need for saving doesn't fall on the team members.  And Thea hasn't been the only one who needed saving this season though she is used too much in the role. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by tarotx

[AyChihuahua]

In 1.9 it was random city residents in danger. I preferred that. Especially bc this season they are building up the show outside the core group again. I'd much rather see that than see Thea, who is supposed to be a competent hero/vigilante, kidnapped/nearly killed every third episode. It makes her look incompetent and useless.

[kismet]

I don't think they need to kill off MM to make TQ relevant. But I also think they need to find more ways to use TQ as more than a plot device or as the sole means of making MM relevant. Sometimes I wish they had never got the idea to make one of the Queens a Merlyn and then in the same season kill off MQ who was an awesome foil to MM/JB. There really is no one in the cast that can go toe for toe with JB on multiple levels like ST could. I love when EBR confronts him, but even that gets old after awhile. Not every conversation can be based upon an angry outbursts & death stares. They need someone to match JB otherwise he just takes over most scenes. It's not even the writers fault at times, JB just takes over the scene so even if it's not about MM, it becomes about MM.

I say find a way for him to be a megalomaniac evil villain far away from TA. Let TQ reclaim her Queen/Dearden roots and let MM play with his bad guy friends.

[Sunshine]

Thea was running from ghosts in the 420 preview (vacation from hell).  I am guessing Alex is going to be collateral damage.  Is the familiar foe Anarky or Merlyn?  Thea might need rescuing if she's outnumbered.  

Diggle looks like he's going to need rescuing in 420.

Maybe the idea is that they work better as a team than they do as individuals?

I need a new storyline for Thea in S5.  Can Malcolm die in 4.23?  Nothing against JB but I am so over MM.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

I cannot overstate how much I am over Thea in every possible way. She has needed saving more than Laurel now. It's RIDICULOUS. If she's that pitiful, she really should not be allowed to be a vigilante. Save your damn self for ONCE, Thea. I'm over her and her idiotic father issues, and I'm MASSIVELY over Oliver's ANYTHING-FOR-THEA bullshit obsession. OMG just fucking stop already. I would almost trade her for Laurel.

Maybe the twist will be Thea doing something that ends up saving Oliver and Diggle but comes with at least a temporary
cost to her freedom.  I spent a lot of time thinking that Felicity would be the one to leave then switched to Diggle but maybe it will be Diggle and Thea.  Actually the whole team that stayed behind since Laurel is already gone. 

4 hours ago, wonderwall said:

That's because her relationships are with the worst people... Malcolm (who's the worst), Alex (who's the most boring character ever).

She barely even has a connection to Oliver right now because they rarely interact anymore. 

The problem with Thea is that the writers constantly use her as a plot device. She's not independent at all and she's basically stuck on an island just like how Felicity was stuck on Palmer island last year. The writers are giving her relationship with side characters and aren't even bothering to integrate her into the team.

It's not really a reflection on the character, imo, I think it's a reflection on the writers because I think Thea has a lot of potential as  a character.

Yeah, Thea has been Laurel and Malcolm's puppet and while Alex is hers, he's so incredibly bland and underwritten he's a liability.  The guy is so much more interesting an actor than anything he was given to do.  Why bother with a recognizable face if they are going to do nothing that requires any acting skill.  All they needed was someone to look good and say his lines, lines that have required no depth or nuance. 

[bijoux]

I'm with @Sunshine. Dig's kidnapped and tortured in 420, Thea's in peril in 422. It's certainly happened before but I'm not judging until I see it. Who knows, maybe she's on recon wherever and she gets surrounded by Ghosts. It could be that they don't even see her, but they're not moving and she's outnumbered so she needs help to get out. That doesn't sound like damselling to me.

Or maybe it's just Anarky who's decided to take her out on a date and Dig and Oliver burst in with a story about how her cat got lost and she must rush to find it.