Spoiler Discussion Thread

[lemotomato]

 Laurel flashbacks in 21-23? May sweeps? Whatever they are smoking, I want some.

I don't even understand how this would work, storytelling-wise. The last couple of episodes are traditionally when the season-long loose ends get tied up and they ramp up for the conclusion. Why would they decide to cut away from what's going on on the island, presumably right when things get interesting and blowing whatever momentum they've managed to build, to show what Laurel was up to during that time?

I guess they heard all the declarations of "I couldn't care less about the flashbacks. They can't be more useless." and decided "Challenge accepted."

[Guest]

Yep. Safest, most obvious killing-off ever. 

 

I will be genuinely surprised if it isn't him. 

 

Yep. Even though I've been worried about Diggle, I've always thought it was Quentin. And let's be honest, he's not even been in the last two episodes and I didn't even know he was missing. I think he's the safest choice without changing the dynamic of the show too much. Plus it'll give Laurel some story for the rest of the season and s5, which they seem unable to write for her without someone dying.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

Ratings wise, not like Laurel flashbacks would be the entire episode. But the audience isn't as predictable as it seems. 

 

But if they actually go through with a flashback, I honestly don't know what it would be, I guess it would have to be about Quentin or maybe having her flash before Oliver in his flashbacks for whatever reason. 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Primal Slayer

[dtissagirl]

If they kill one of the Lances in say, 420, and then 421 or 422 has flashbacks with them, that keeps whoever's dying on set for a little longer. It's not a bad plan.

[lemotomato]

Now that I think about it, they took a break from island flashbacks in season 2 to give Moira one in 220. Is it too late for them to be writing 420?

Laurel's story has racked up quite a death toll. Tommy, Sara, Oliver (temporarily), and if the death turns out to be Quentin, her dad. Black Widow seems more of an appropriate codename for her than Black Canary. Too bad it's taken already by someone much cooler.

[Morrigan2575]

If they kill one of the Lances in say, 420, and then 421 or 422 has flashbacks with them, that keeps whoever's dying on set for a little longer. It's not a bad plan.

Refresh my memory, they did the same thing with Moira/Susanna right? I believe they filmed another Moira/Oliver flashback for 221-223 but it was cut, IIRC. Edited February 7, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Primal Slayer]

Tommy didn't have 100% to do with Laurels storyline though, it was also to push Oliver into his next iteration of Arrow. And Oliver wasn't just killed off to give the character a story, it also set up a new dynamic for all the characters in the team.

[Velocity23]

Its amusing that the speculation is now that   LL isnt in the grave. Guggentroll would never do a thing like that. He didnt do it with Oliver after 3x09 and tried to sell that Oliver, also the same with 4x09 when Felicity was supposed to be dead.

 

I am more curious why he chose one question about KC. Its not like he didnt get similar question about everybody else. Also her contract is up this season.

 

Let just remember that there was a flashback with Moira shortly before she died.

[nksarmi]

I suppose the Laurel flashbacks are wrong in the timing, but is it at all possible that they are related to the Baby Momma drama?  I mean KC did say that her character would "embrace someone surprising" or something like that.  I had hoped she meant Donna because of the Quentin/Donna relationship. But if she did mean BM or kid - and the show runners want to make this just as horrible as can be - they could show a flashback where Oliver did come clean with Laurel about the kid, told her the mother miscarried, and she forgave him/comforted him.  So that when she finds out that baby momma lied and the kid is alive - she feels sorry for Oliver and defends him.

 

Now I am truly hoping that is not where they go with this, because I don't think Ollie told Laurel the truth about anything when they were dating.  And Laurel should be pissed when she finds out and totally take Felicity's side. 

 

So Laurel flashbacks related to Quentin's death would work a whole lot better for me.  Oh and if KC was dismissed and Laurel does die - that was a shitty, shitty thing for MG to say because he really did just confirm that if Laurel dies - KC was fired.  He should have said something like "KC is wonderful to work with and she is a valuable member of our team.  Because of the mission our characters take on - no one is every truly safe and I can't confirm who will survive this season.  But rest assured that we love Katie and whatever happens with her character will be story-driven."

[Primal Slayer]

But did he really get similar questions about everyone else? I doubt it. If Amell has a 7 year contract, she probably does as well.

[dtissagirl]

Is it too late for them to be writing 420?

Nope. They still have a couple of weeks to lock the 420 script [shooting starts around March 8, script delivery a week before that], so it's probably in early drafts now [the ones sent out to people who give notes].

So yeah, Laurel flashbacks could be in 420. 419 too, it's technically not locked yet for another few days. I does make sense to have Lances fbs if one of them dies.

Refresh my memory, they did the same thing with Moira/Susanna right? I believe they filmed another Moira/Oliver flashback for 221-223 but it was cut, IIRC.

Right, I had forgotten about that. I think it was a flashback for the finale? But yes, definitely for an ep after 220.

[lemotomato]

Refresh my memory, they did the same thing with Moira/Susanna right? I believe they filmed another Moira/Oliver flashback for 221-223 but it was cut, IIRC.

I think it was a dream sequence they filmed with Moira and Oliver that got cut. SA mentioned it when he was talking about the 323 Olicity dream sequence.

Edited February 7, 2016 by lemotomato

[Morrigan2575]

Nope. They still have a couple of weeks to lock the 420 script [shooting starts around March 8, script delivery a week before that], so it's probably in early drafts now [the ones sent out to people who give notes].

So yeah, Laurel flashbacks could be in 420. 419 too, it's technically not locked yet for another few days. I does make sense to have Lances fbs if one of them dies.

Right, I had forgotten about that. I think it was a flashback for the finale? But yes, definitely for an ep after 220.

I remember because it totally screwed up our spec about the funeral since someone (probably PB) posted this BTS pic during (I want to say 223 filming)

I think it was later confirmed by MG that they had filmed another flashback, I want to say of Dead/Dying Moira (from 220) talking to Oliver but cut it.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[nksarmi]

But did he really get similar questions about everyone else? I doubt it. If Amell has a 7 year contract, she probably does as well.

 

Yea I have a hard time believing Katie's contract is up this year.  I would think she and Amell (given the original premise of this show) would have been signed to 5 years at least (5 years on the island - 5 years of flashbacks).  They may have later extended Amell to 7.

[Belinea]

Now I am truly hoping that is not where they go with this, because I don't think Ollie told Laurel the truth about anything when they were dating.  And Laurel should be pissed when she finds out and totally take Felicity's side. 

I doubt he told her, since they were still this happy couple when he went on the boat and she was talking about moving in together. How much worse would it be if she had even then knowingly accepted him getting a girl pregnant while being with her. Everything about their romantic relationship is just so awful and complicated.

 

However, I don't think they'd ever kill Laurel after taking so long to get her to be somewhat more relevant. IMO, they still haven't given up hope that if they try hard and long enough most viewers will finally embrace her as LL not as the BC. Because to me they are actually 2 characters. I like her more as BC than as her normal self.

 

So the death is either Quention or Diggle. I am leaning towards Quentin because I could live without him quite honestly. And if the flashback is of Laurel and Quentin then his death could give her once again motivation. After that they'd really have to think hard to give her an actual storyline because they cannot kill off anymore people to give her some motivation. Apart from mom there would not be that many left. 

[dtissagirl]

They repeat story beats left and fight, why not repeat production steps as well? Heh.

[wonderwall]

I can't believe I'm gonna give Guggenheim an out here, but I will. Like he said, all directors for the entire season are booked before the season starts. Not just for Arrow, but for basically every tv show ever. Getting a director to fill in mid-season is not that easy, because everyone's booked for a bunch of different shows.

When Antonio dropped out, MG and Wendy wanted Lexi. Then they went to Berlanti. And Berlanti said, "sorry, guys, I booked lexi for Supergirl in those same dates." So they didn't ask Lexi.

It is really not a conspiracy this time.

No I know this. I'm just being bitter that out of all the people, it's Bamford they went with :p

[Guest]

I really don't think Laurel is dying, never have, but just because she probably has a 6-7 year contract doesn't mean anything. CD had the same contract, apparently, and they killed him off at the end of s1. 

 

But seriously, Laurel's not dying so the point is kinda moot. It's a moo point.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Guest

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I thought the actors were bound by the terms of the contract more than TPTB were. The actor can't go anywhere for the length of it, but if TPTB want you gone, you're gone. Is that not how it works?

[bijoux]

Refresh my memory, they did the same thing with Moira/Susanna right? I believe they filmed another Moira/Oliver flashback for 221-223 but it was cut, IIRC.

  

Noooo. I hate this because a) they cut it, and b) they didn't release the scene after the fact. :(

No I know this. I'm just being bitter that out of all the people, it's Bamford they went with :p

Because everyone else was booked for work. Really, that's what I got from the answer. He was the last option.

It's strange seeing PB with hair.

[Primal Slayer]

I don't think anyone is saying Katie would be safe because of her contract. Just that we think her contract is just as long as Stephens as opposed to having a 4 year contract.

[Velocity23]

Katies contract cannot be the same as Stephens. KC must be under contract by CBS while Stephens is by wB.

[nksarmi]

Katies contract cannot be the same as Stephens. KC must be under contract by CBS while Stephens is by wB.

 

Why?  I just tried finding any info about her contract on Google and came up with nothing.  I read where Stephen said he is contracted until 2019, but that's it. I think I remember some quote at one point saying that David Ramsey was under a six or seven year contract, but I can't find anything on KC. 

 

I assume that her contract would be 5 years since it seems like the original intent of the show was at least 5 seasons and that's how long it takes to make the critical 100th episode.  Since their original vision was for her to be BC and to do the BC/GA story - I have to believe she was contract to make it to the 100th episode at least.

 

Now sure, they could fire her early.  But last season they said they knew Colton would leave at the end of season three because they only had him under contract for that long.  If Katie's contract was really up this season - they could say the same thing if they killed her.  But again, I don't see why they wouldn't have contracted her until at least the 5th season.

[tarotx]

A laurel Flashback doesn't mean the Flashbacks will be Laurel centric. It could be a more like The return last year. Maybe they are Quentin centic? Like Maybe good memories from everyone told in a Flashback premise? I think it could be very bittersweet and mean we won't have a island Flashback heavy episode. I'm always looking for reasons not to have it. And most of us heavily believe that it's Quentin in the grave or an even more easy out with one of the non regulars. Laurel needs a new dead person to be her calling to fight. I know she doesn't really need one but tptb work that way.

[nksarmi]

And even though that question that MG answered was worded poorly - I think MG was saying Katie has not asked to leave.  She would only NEED to ask to leave if he contract took her beyond this season.  Otherwise, she could just tell this - this is it, I'm not coming back.  So yea, if she is the one in the grave - he basically confirmed she was fired. 

 

But again, I really don't think she is in the grave.  Hell, even if they wanted to kill Black Canary at some point - they would probably wait until the 100th episode to do it.

[Velocity23]

KC got her two main roles on shows that were CBS productions.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Velocity23

[Chaser]

I'm relieved they are talking Laurel flashbacks right now because that limits the grave to a Lance for me.

I put no stock in his denial, he would deny it for anyone.

[wonderwall]

Lol I'm definitely going to be disappointed if she isn't because I'm desperately hoping for her nonentity ass off the show because she takes up time and money and effort, but I guess I'm on the train until someone actually dies.

Oh well, it's my burden to bear :p

[nksarmi]

I'm relieved they are talking Laurel flashbacks right now because that limits the grave to a Lance for me.

I put no stock in his denial, he would deny it for anyone.

 

Of course he would - but it's how he denied it that makes him either an ass (which is easy to believe) or confirms she isn't dying.  The right way to deny if someone has asked to leave the show is "I can't confirm which characters will survive this season, but we love working with Katie and she love being on the show."

[wonderwall]

But again, I really don't think she is in the grave. Hell, even if they wanted to kill Black Canary at some point - they would probably wait until the 100th episode to do it.

Idk I think a huge season long buildup leading to a 'game changing' death is a death fit for BC. The 100th episode actually seems less epic than that.

Of course he would - but it's how he denied it that makes him either an ass (which is easy to believe) or confirms she isn't dying. The right way to deny if someone has asked to leave the show is "I can't confirm which characters will survive this season, but we love working with Katie and she love being on the show."

Lol this is Marc we're talking about :p he definitely doesn't think before he writes something down.

[dtissagirl]

Now sure, they could fire her early.  But last season they said they knew Colton would leave at the end of season three because they only had him under contract for that long.  If Katie's contract was really up this season - they could say the same thing if they killed her.  But again, I don't see why they wouldn't have contracted her until at least the 5th season.

Colton's contract was completely different from everyone else's. The CW wanted him -- he comes with millions of young social media followers, and the network thought that would bring a younger audience to Arrow. So the CW pushed Berlanti Co to hire him as a regular after recurring in S1. They gave him a 2 year contract. His presence on the show did not bring in the expected younger audience. So the EPs could write him out after his network-pushed contract expired.

I've heard rumblings that KC's contract with the CW was already in place prior to Arrow, and continued into Arrow. If that's true, she's been in options for a while now. Which means her contract ends every season.

[foreverevolving]

Now laurel is not in the grave,yessssssss the flashback of laurel  highlight a story by the end of this season will continue in season 5

 

umm Season 2 episode 20 "Seeing Red"- The one where Moira gets killed, they showed flashbacks with her.

episode 20 aired Apr. 23rd one day before sweeps officially started for that period so in a way it was part of sweeps.

so yea.. Laurel could still be in the grave since the show hasn't ruled her out yet.

 

For all we know the flashbacks are from Lance point of view as he remembers his now deceased daughter.

 

ETA: or what everyone else have already written.. really need to read every post before posting.

Edited February 7, 2016 by foreverevolving

[Primal Slayer]

Colton's contract was completely different from everyone else's. The CW wanted him -- he comes with millions of young social media followers, and the network thought that would bring a younger audience to Arrow. So the CW pushed Berlanti Co to hire him as a regular after recurring in S1. They gave him a 2 year contract. His presence on the show did not bring in the expected younger audience. So the EPs could write him out after his network-pushed contract expired.

I've heard rumblings that KC's contract with the CW was already in place prior to Arrow, and continued into Arrow. If that's true, she's been in options for a while now. Which means her contract ends every season.

Having a contract with a network is probably different then when you actually land a show. It's basically gives you first dibs. But just as with SA saying he is signed for 7 years, we had Collin who said he signed on for 7 years and it makes perfect sense that Katie would sign on for 7 years. 

[Velocity23]

But Colin and Stephen didnt have any prior engagments with CW or the WB/CBS like KC. Also KC had the support of the network during the casting for Arrow.

[dtissagirl]

Having a contract with a network is probably different then when you actually land a show. It's basically gives you first dibs. But just as with SA saying he is signed for 7 years, we had Collin who said he signed on for 7 years and it makes perfect sense that Katie would sign on for 7 years.

That's not how network contracts usually work. She probably already had a 6-7 year contract with the CW for Melrose Place [which really means 3 years + options], and then she renegotiated the options once she landed Arrow. Which is WAY smarter than starting a new contract from scratch, because each year of options = very nice salary bump.

[Primal Slayer]

I don't think they take contracts from prior shows and just add it to a new show. She would have negotiated something new since Melrose Place was dead like what 2 years? before Arrow ever became a thing? Eliza Dushku had a deal with FOX where she would stay with the network, they would give her dibs on shows and create projects for her but that wouldn't mean that when she lands a new show that she wouldn't have signed a contract to stay on the show for however long.

 

If you have deals with these people, they probably want you to stay on as long as they can for these shows, not give you the chance to jump ship before everyone else would be able to. SA/KC/CD all signed on to be leads, CW isn't going to want to have their female lead be able to jump ship and leave behind their male leads and possibly mess things up. 

[nksarmi]

That's not how network contracts usually work. She probably already had a 6-7 year contract with the CW for Melrose Place [which really means 3 years + options], and then she renegotiated the options once she landed Arrow. Which is WAY smarter than starting a new contract from scratch, because each year of options = very nice salary bump.

 

I was just thinking that with their original vision of the show - they would have wanted her for at least five seasons.  I know she has made quotes that make it sound like she was very unhappy in season two and wanted her BC story.  It seems to me that they worked something out and it probably won't end in her death. 

 

They guys also don't abandon stories very easily either.  I bet they have some BC stuff they still want to do.  Laurel isn't going anywhere.

[Velocity23]

KC also started appearing on Gossip Girl during 2010 and 2012. And got to choose the pilot she was most interested in.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Velocity23

[Morrigan2575]

I'm not trying to police this thread but, could we maybe drop the contract talk? I mean really, no one here knows what anyone on Arrow contract's say. It's all just rumor and gossip at this point.

[Sakura12]

I'm rooting for it to be Laurel for you guys. However it's Quentin because these writers are not game changers. They would waste a season long who's in the grave on character not many people would care if he died. The characters would care but it wouldn't really change the dynamics at all, not like say a useless team member but a team member nonetheless. They haven't had that yet. Sara was no longer on their team when she died.

[dtissagirl]

I don't think Laurel is dying, I think it's Lance.

But I'm also fairly certain the final decision was the CW's, and not a creative one made by the EPs.

[statsgirl]

If wishes were horses.... although not that dead one.

 

Yep. Safest, most obvious killing-off ever.

 

I will be genuinely surprised if it isn't him.

Sadly, I agree. There's a lot of story still left to tell with  Quentin, just as there was with Moira, but it seems like they have trouble seeing part their masks and costumes.  (Even when the mask fails like Diggle's does.)

 

I'm still open to the idea of them actually surprising me but with Laurel and Sara flashbacks, it's looking increasingly unlikely,

 

 

But I'm also fairly certain the final decision was the CW's, and not a creative one made by the EPs.

Based on age?  The dowager queen is arguably the most popular character on Reign.

 

Maybe it was DC since the others are all comic book characters.

[Chaser]

I almost think we need a Grave Spec Thread (spoilers, bts, contracts).

[nksarmi]

But we would need one every season!  I mean, they did this to us last year kind of.  I can't remember when MG released the spoiler - but he definitely had a "someone else is going to die" announcement at some point - because it feels like I spent months convincing myself it was not going to be Roy.

 

I only joined this forum/show last year (after bing watching seasons one and two on Netflix) so I don't know if it's a yearly tradition.  But it certainly feels like these flash forwards were a product of how much the Internet spent last season debating that pending death.  I really believe that MG loves to troll us and he got to write it into the show this year.  Fun!

 

I can't remember who we settled on last season was "the" death that MG spoiled - Ra's or Mateo or the kid?  But it really didn't amount to much.  Neither did MG's "we're going to blow up the show" at the end of season three.  I honestly wouldn't believe they are going to write off someone from the team unless that someone got an offer to do something else and asked/begged to be let go. 

 

To me - that leaves Lance.  I'd cry tears of joy if we're all WAY off base and it's Malcolm killed at Thea's hand because Darhk turned her! 

[calliope1975]

Life is so much better when you're not on tumblr and you don't read MG responses to asks.

 

When you are on Tumblr, and the people you follow repost every MG response, it's best to have a healthy, lightning fast, scroll finger. It's the only way to enjoy one's dash. 

 

Sadly, unless there's some social media shenanigans or production leaks, I don't think we're going to know who's in the grave until we know who's in the grave. I have my pick, and we all have logical reasons each pick should be dead, but as we've seen, MG and Company don't always live in the world of logic. He'll justify whatever character is in the grave, even if it's the SC Windows and Doors guy. Then, he'll be condescending and rude to anyone who disagrees with his troll logic. 

 

I will say that the Arrow PTB have given me so much more appreciation to showrunners who respect their audience. I don't need my every whim or desire catered to, but I like being respected and appreciated as a viewer. 

[kes0704]

I had built up some hope that Laurel was in the grave but now I think Oliver will be dead (again) before she is ever killed off. In the last scene of the last episode ever Laurel will be the only one left standing because for some reason they refuse to give up on the her.

I don't understand why they would kill off a character that works to keep one that hasn't really clicked in 4 years, but it will be just another thing that disappoints me about this show.

[Belinea]

I don't understand why they would kill off a character that works to keep one that hasn't really clicked in 4 years, but it will be just another thing that disappoints me about this show.

 

Well, maybe she clicks for them although they have admitted in the past that they had problems with her. Mostly their own fault. But it might also be a DC problem that they cannot just kill off one of their more iconic characters. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Something just occurred to me, and this might have already been raised upthread so I apologize for repeating it, but do you guys think they'll have Felicity hide her meetings (from the stills, there seems to be at least 2) with her father from Donna? Then they'll have Felicity doing the "lying by omission" thing they're trying to sell with Oliver. Donna's initial appearance can be explained as her checking up on her daughter, it doesn't have to be Papa Smoak-related. 

[Morrigan2575]

I was hoping we'd get a Donna/Noah/Felicity scene or a Donna/Noah scene but it seems like they're going to keep them separate for now.

I don't think Felicity is going to keep her meeting with Noah a secret from Donna. I think Felicity will probably confront her mother about Noah and his side of the story.

[spartan]

umm Season 2 episode 20 "Seeing Red"- The one where Moira gets killed, they showed flashbacks with her.

episode 20 aired Apr. 23rd one day before sweeps officially started for that period so in a way it was part of sweeps.

so yea.. Laurel could still be in the grave since the show hasn't ruled her out yet.

 

For all we know the flashbacks are from Lance point of view as he remembers his now deceased daughter.

 

ETA: or what everyone else have already written.. really need to read every post before posting.

I read the various posts of each, but I sincerely believe that laurel lance is not in the grave, many here will be disappointed, MG said that KC does not leave the show