Spoiler Discussion Thread

[wonderwall]

Please be an effective storyline that, you know, goes somewhere, and not the dumb mess that was ~the search for Sara's killer~.

 

I think the good thing about this storyline is that anything is possible. With Sara's death, it's obvious it wasn't going to be some random thing. So it was easier to figure out so we wasted 9 episodes on something that was so obvious but was made convoluted just so it could make sense regarding the characterization/plot. 

 

Because they're sort of making the 'world bigger' in Arrow for S4, Andy's death can be something that doesn't require characters/plot to be twisted in order to make sense....

 

...I dont' think I'm making sense here lol

[Chaser]

MG said that who killed Andy would be a big mystery of the first part of S4. I'm wondering if it's going to follow the same format of S3 and Sara. Diggle finds the truth in the mid season finale and the last part of the season is him going after the guilty party. I'm fine with that timeline I just hope it's better executed. DR started tweeting the brother so hopefully that means Flashback Diggle or villain Flashbacks.

Edited September 16, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[wonderwall]

MG said that who killed Andy would be a big mystery of the first part of S4. I'm wondering if it's going to follow the same format of S3 and Sara. Diggle finds the truth in the mid season finale and the last part of the season is him going after the guilty party. I'm fine with that timeline I just hope it's better executed. DR started tweeting the brother so hopefully that means Flashback Diggle or villain Flashbacks.

 

I hope this means we get more Diggle flashbacks because I honestly don't think I'll care for Andy's death if I'm not connected to that character. I want to feel the loss of Andy through Diggle's pain. So yeah, I really hope they do this storyline justice. This could be amazing for Diggle and I'm really excited! I hope this gives him a sense of peace/closure by the end of episode 9. 

[dtissagirl]

Guggie said the first non-Oliver flashback is the crossover, didn't he? We've been assuming it's gonna be flashbacks to one of the LoT characters, but what if it's Diggle's brother? That could lead into 409, instead of leading into a different TV show.

 

[...But it's probably one of the LoT characters.]

[kismet]

I wonder if they might try to pull off another twist (& perhaps land it properly this time) by having the audience know who the "killer" is but have the team still struggling to piece it together. I like when we the audience know more than the characters, especially in season-long mysteries. It was revealed too soon to the team who SL's killer was without actually using the information for anything productive. All it did was get TA's wheels spinning in dirt again for plot reasons. I just want this mystery to be better handled than s3's mystery.

 

Personally, I hope that Andy is not dead - but rather is some secret agent for DD/HIVE. I would love for that to be one of the big mid-season jaw-droppers. Where Dig is hunting down a lead and stumbles upon his not so dead brother. Cue a whole lot of options for badassery & crazy plots in s4b.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, I'm expecting Andy to show up in present time. I don't really find this interesting storytelling, because it's not like this show hasn't had presumed dead people show up before [slade Sara Merlyn Cooper], but it's just the kind of thing Guggie likes to do. So I'm expecting it.

[Guest]

I'm so hyped for Diggle's storyline. FINALLY. We've waited so long.

 

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Andy isn't dead but at the same time I'm like really?! Does anyone ever stay dead on this show? But it could be interesting. I think regardless of whether he's actually dead or not, it sounds very much like he was involved in H.I.V.E. in some way. I'm interested in how all that unfolds and I really hope Oliver is there for him as support for a change. 

[kismet]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Andy isn't dead but at the same time I'm like really?! Does anyone ever stay dead on this show?

Moira & Tommy :*(  Sad tears.... no hope for bringing them back just poorly replicated substitutions.

[Guest]

Moira & Tommy :*(  Sad tears.... no hope for bringing them back just poorly replicated substitutions.

 

Well, I know some characters stay dead! But a lot do come back from the dead. It's practically expected at this point! Especially if they're male. 

[dtissagirl]

I kind of want it to go the other way around for a change -- instead of it turns out Andy is ~evil now, that he was trying to stop HIVE way back then [hence HIVE contracting Deadshot to kill Andy]. And now Diggle's gonna finish was Andy was trying to do.

[kismet]

Well, I know some characters stay dead! But a lot do come back from the dead. It's practically expected at this point! Especially if they're male. 

I know you did :) Heck even the main character came back from the dead like almost 3 times now, nevermind the big original resurrection that started this whole show. 

 

I don't mind the concept of having believed to dead, not-so-dead characters. It's trope but it can be fun & interesting. I think Slade is a good example of how it worked well as more than just a trope. I think Cooper is an example of too cliche trope. I'm hoping for Slade level execution. I think the actor who plays Andy is supposed to be good, so that's already 1 perk. Also if its going to be a long arc, then they have time to expand the story. With Cooper, they had to squeeze everything in 1 episode which is why it felt so cliche to me. I have seen that plot in numerous TV shows before only better executed.

 

ETA - I like Dtissagirl's idea for the twist. I do want it to be more than just Andy is evil now or was evil then. Perhaps he could be like Bryce in CHUCK, with a few different missions & allegiances in the fire.

Edited September 16, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

I pray that they keep Andy dead. THis show has done way to many fake deaths that it would just be beyond ridiculous at this point. Malcolm was "dead", Sara was "dead", Oliver was "dead", Slade was "dead", Roy is "dead". It is just used as such an out on this show that they need to stop it. 

[wonderwall]

I pray that they keep Andy dead. THis show has done way to many fake deaths that it would just be beyond ridiculous at this point. Malcolm was "dead", Sara was "dead", Oliver was "dead", Slade was "dead", Roy is "dead". It is just used as such an out on this show that they need to stop it. 

 

Agreed. If they bring back someone else from the dead it will essentially cheapen the meaning of death on that show to the point where it's meaningless. Like if someone were to die on the show, it won't have as much of an impact because the audience would just figure that the show could bring them back at some point. 

[tarotx]

Diggle dated Andy's wife so I hope Andy stays dead. It's unneeded drama for both Andy&Diggle and Diggle&Lyla.

[Primal Slayer]

What is with this show and siblings sharing lovers?

[apinknightmare]

I will always be convinced that someone (or someoneS) had a great affinity for VC Andrews books back in the day with all the weird sibling dynamics/swapping going on in this show.

[tarotx]

Even on Flash Barry is in love with his "adoptive" sister. So AK?

[Guest]

I kind of want it to go the other way around for a change -- instead of it turns out Andy is ~evil now, that he was trying to stop HIVE way back then [hence HIVE contracting Deadshot to kill Andy]. And now Diggle's gonna finish was Andy was trying to do.

 

I would love that. I really hope that's what they do. Diggle honors his brother by finishing what Andy started. Yasssss!

[calliope1975]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if Andy isn't dead but at the same time I'm like really?! Does anyone ever stay dead on this show? 

 

If Andy's alive, then Deadshot had ink work done for no reason. He seems like a guy who confirms his kills, but with this show? Andy probably works for ARGUS or something else unbelievable and dumb.

[foreverevolving]

Even on Flash Barry is in love with his "adoptive" sister. So AK?

honestly I don't understand people's anti for Barry and Iris, granted i'm leaning towards the Snowbarry camp, but I can also go the westallen camp, and my leaning has nothing to do with how they grew up.

She is not his sister, not even his adoptive sister. Joe was more of a foster dad than anything else. The show established that they already knew each other before Joe took him in, they never saw each other as siblings, I think Iris always referred to him as her friend and not her brother- but i may be remembering wrong.

[Guest]

If Andy's alive, then Deadshot had ink work done for no reason. He seems like a guy who confirms his kills, but with this show? Andy probably works for ARGUS or something else unbelievable and dumb.

 

Yeah, that's a good point actually.

 

I'm torn between wanting Andy alive for Diggle because of course I want Diggle to be happy. But I also don't want people to keep coming back from the dead and I actually don't think that will happen anyway. It's just one of the possibilities you have to think of on this show. 

[dtissagirl]

 they never saw each other as siblings, I think Iris always referred to him as her friend and not her brother- but i may be remembering wrong.

 

 

Iris told Barry they're kind of like brother and sister but not really in the pilot episode. That right there made me anti-ship those two for the rest of ever.

 

 

If Andy's alive, then Deadshot had ink work done for no reason. He seems like a guy who confirms his kills, but with this show? Andy probably works for ARGUS or something else unbelievable and dumb.

 

I hadn't thought of this! Yeah, if Andy is alive, that makes Deadshot incompetent, and THAT IS UNECCEPTABLE. *stans*

Edited September 16, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Sakura12]

Iris told Barry they're kind of like brother and sister but not really in the pilot episode. That right there made me anti-ship those two for the rest of ever.

 

Or when Iris ask Barry if Dad is home yet. 

 

I like Iris and I like Barry I just don't see anything but friendship chemistry with them.

[tarotx]

OT: I know it's a little bit different. But they were raised as a family. Joe is more than just a father figure to Barry. Barry and Iris were around 11 years old when Barry's mom died. There is a sibling relationship. That said I think Barry and Iris are cute. I can deal with it.

honestly I don't understand people's anti for Barry and Iris, granted i'm leaning towards the Snowbarry camp, but I can also go the westallen camp, and my leaning has nothing to do with how they grew up.

She is not his sister, not even his adoptive sister. Joe was more of a foster dad than anything else. The show established that they already knew each other before Joe took him in, they never saw each other as siblings, I think Iris always referred to him as her friend and not her brother- but i may be remembering wrong.

Edited September 16, 2015 by tarotx

[BkWurm1]

Is Oliver finally going to dance this season??

No plans as yet.  Stay tuned.

 

Did anyone else read this and immediately think of him dancing at his wedding? 

 

I'm torn because I'd love some assurance that my hopes for Olicity were a sure thing but I also want to support SA in his quest to keep dancing just with his real life wife.  Sooooo how about a compromise?  Maybe we only see them go to the dance floor or the camera picks up at the end of the dance? 

 

Yes, I know I am getting way ahead of myself, but these are weighty matters!  ;)

[AyChihuahua]

Legally Joe was most likely Barry's foster father.  Meaning that from the time they were both 11-years-old they grew up in the same home as foster siblings.  Him wanting to bang her after that is...fairly creepy.  No blood relation, so not illegal, but it's not like they grew up just as next door neighbors.

 

My bigger problem with it is the total lack, IMO, of chemistry between them.  (And I love Candice Patton, so it's not at all an issue with the actress.)

[Morrigan2575]

Moira & Tommy :*(  Sad tears.... no hope for bringing them back just poorly replicated substitutions.

+ Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy and until recently Bucky Barnes must stay DEAD no matter what.

[Primal Slayer]

Legally Joe was most likely Barry's foster father. Meaning that from the time they were both 11-years-old they grew up in the same home as foster siblings. Him wanting to bang her after that is...fairly creepy. No blood relation, so not illegal, but it's not like they grew up just as next door neighbors.

My bigger problem with it is the total lack, IMO, of chemistry between them. (And I love Candice Patton, so it's not at all an issue with the actress.)

Didn't Barry like Iris before he moved in with him? It wasn't something that he developed while living with them.

[apinknightmare]

Him liking her before he moved in to her house would've been okay, but I will never understand why they chose to have Iris tell Barry that THEY WERE LIKE BROTHER AND SISTER. Yuck.

I get that they needed a jumping off point to show that Barry loved her and she absolutely did not feel the same way, but my god, have her emphasize their friendship. Never, EVER mention being like brother and sister. Ever.

For all the messed up sister swapping going on on Arrow, at least they haven't gone there (yet).

[AyChihuahua]

I'm torn because I'd love some assurance that my hopes for Olicity were a sure thing but I also want to support SA in his quest to keep dancing just with his real life wife.  Sooooo how about a compromise?  Maybe we only see them go to the dance floor or the camera picks up at the end of the dance? 

Between this and that they should have just had Digg injured to explain why he wasn't in the field and Laurel was, you are on fire today with good ideas.

[tv echo]

WM has said that Curtis Holt was not going to become Mr. Terrific this season. (Collider article, page 19 of Spoilers thread)

 

I think Curtis' character can serve a lot of purposes: 

 

• A genius tech guy who helps Felicity at PT.
• A friend and confidante for Felicity.  Face it, Diggle's first loyalty (next to his wife & daughter) is always going to be to his 'brother' Oliver - assuming Andy is dead, dead. 
• Another character that the EPs can develop a back story for and fill up more episode time.
• A backup IT guy for TA in the event Felicity is absent or missing. On a more ominous note, I sometimes wonder how TA would operate if O&F broke up but Felicity was still part of TA.  The team needs an IT person.  With Curtis, the showrunners now have the option of removing Felicity from TA (for whatever reason) and replacing her with Curtis.
• A future superhero. Curtis could become Mr. Terrific in season 5 (assuming there is a season 5) and possibly move over to LoT.

Edited September 16, 2015 by tv echo

[Guest]

Did anyone else read this and immediately think of him dancing at his wedding? 

 

I'm torn because I'd love some assurance that my hopes for Olicity were a sure thing but I also want to support SA in his quest to keep dancing just with his real life wife.  Sooooo how about a compromise?  Maybe we only see them go to the dance floor or the camera picks up at the end of the dance? 

 

Yes, I know I am getting way ahead of myself, but these are weighty matters!  ;)

 

LOL. I don't really need to see Oliver dance. I wouldn't mind seeing him hold Felicity in a slow dance position as if they're about to dance at some gala or something and then all hell breaks loose. That would probably be enough for me. But I guess them dancing is low on my Olicity wish list. I must be a minority or something.

 

 

• A backup IT guy for TA in the event Felicity is absent or missing. On a more ominous note, I sometimes wonder how TA would operate if O&F broke up but Felicity was still part of TA.  The team needs an IT person.  With Curtis, the showrunners now have the option of removing Felicity from TA (for whatever reason) and replacing her with Curtis.

 

 

 

I'm waiting for all the 'They've got Curtis now, Felicity isn't needed anymore. Kill her!' comments. LOL. 

[looptab]

LOL. I don't really need to see Oliver dance. I wouldn't mind seeing him hold Felicity in a slow dance position as if they're about to dance at some gala or something and then all hell breaks loose. That would probably be enough for me. But I guess them dancing is low on my Olicity wish list. I must be a minority or something.

I'm in the minority with you. I'm not dying to see them dance either. I honestly don't understand why there's such a high demand for this, LOL. Edited September 16, 2015 by looptab

[NumberCruncher]

Me three. The obsession over certain aspects of the Olicity relationship (the fern, Oliver dancing, etc.) continue to be a mystery to me.

[apinknightmare]

I think that because Oliver has mentioned a few times that he doesn't dance, people would like to see him break that rule for Felicity.

Personally, I don't care either way.

[Velocity23]

Little scoop from MGs panel he had together with his wife.

 

http://www.gbreviews.com/long-beach-comic-con-2015-saturday-recap/

[kismet]

Agreed. If they bring back someone else from the dead it will essentially cheapen the meaning of death on that show to the point where it's meaningless. Like if someone were to die on the show, it won't have as much of an impact because the audience would just figure that the show could bring them back at some point. 

 

I believe there is a difference in witnessing people die, seeing their funeral & the audience/characters grieving for their loss and being told that a certain person is dead preshow & being asking to believe this. ARROW at its core is a comic & superhero genre story, people come back for the "dead" all the time. For me the dead, is only "dead" when we actually see them die & even then I don't trust writers. I always expect people to miraculously not be dead when a new season needs a new character or a character needs a new journey/arc. However, bringing people back to life after the show invested in their killing & funeral/burial for me does cheapen death. So it should be used sparingly.

 

Bringing SL back from the dead in s4 will cheapen her death, I take solace in knowing that it is being done for spin-off purposes & not character/plot reasons. I look forward to them addressing that it is not good for anyone to just bring people back out of whatever personal reasons they attribute to Lances (assumed resurrectors). This is the main reason I wanted her to be brought back immediately after her death & being held/used by a supervillain, not by the Lances in s4 for reasons.

 

For me, I find the idea of bringing people whom we never met back from the dead does not cheapen death, because in many ways in my head they were never really dead, we were only being told it. And I have a strict must see policy when it comes to certain things, I don't trust anything the writers conveniently tell me about characters pre-show. It's why I like that they showed OQ in FB - otherwise I would find it hard to believe that a frat boy went from douche to talented superhero vigilante. Actually witnessing a characters deaths & funerals/burial are major turning points in a dead person's arc - so it does become harder to believe that they are alive. It becomes harder for me to believe that MQ will ever come back because we have seen both death & burial - to bring her back now would cheapen everything the characters went through after her death. I highly doubt that TM will ever be brought back, but my head could spin a viable & believable arc that has him being saved via extraordinary (aka not realistic in realism, but possible on TV show) ways since we never saw his burial. But yeah, I don't see it happening, so I'm sad but not worried.

If Andy's alive, then Deadshot had ink work done for no reason. He seems like a guy who confirms his kills, but with this show? Andy probably works for ARGUS or something else unbelievable and dumb.

Well he was Deadshot's first kill as Deadshot, so maybe he wasn't as thorough in his death confirmation? I think the writers could spin it in a way that would not diminish Deadshot's ink homage choices.

Edited September 16, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

For me, the fact that they've brought so many people back from death just cheapens it regardless of how minor said characters were/are. After a certain point, after so many 'resurrections' it doesn't matter to me if we've never met a character before bringing back said character to life. That character death had meaning to the living characters on screen. Example, Andy's death affected Diggle and Deadshot greatly. So bringing him back from the 'dead' would essentially just cheapen that death to me because it would make everything Diggle went through, everything Deadshot went through a moot point. 

[kismet]

I wouldn't mind seeing him hold Felicity in a slow dance position as if they're about to dance at some gala or something and then all hell breaks loose. That would probably be enough for me. But I guess them dancing is low on my Olicity wish list. I must be a minority or something.. 

I think if they ever show it, it will be similar to how you describe it. It would honor SA's no dancing rule & not force us to watch him be no rhythm boy on the dance floor. Unless he miraculously got rhythm, sadly I don't think SA can dance (I have seen the youtubes). But yeah if OQ ever gets married on the show they have to at least show him walking out to the dance floor & at least taking position (even if nothing bad happens)

 

I'm one of the people I want to see OQ dance. They have teased us now for over 3 seasons about OQ not dancing. I want to be let in on the joke that either he is wicked horrible (like in Seinfeld when Elaine dances) or he's got secret mad skills. I feel like every time his "not dancing" is mentioned in script, its just baiting the audience to ask WHY?. Even if Olicity never existed, I would still want to know why OQ makes such a big deal about him not dancing. For me his dancing is like one of those quirky character things that needs to revealed at some point.

[tarotx]

What cheapened Sara's death is they dropped her in the trash and then had Laural SWF her. Bringing Sara back is taking back a cheapening to the character and I care more about that. A lot of things can cause other characters to grieve loss. I do think the show has to be careful or Danger isn't going to excite but having consequences to returning can fix that. I rather have no more major deaths any way so returns from death won't be an issue in the future. 

 

There is no reason to bring Andy back unless Andy is going to become a regular good guy and we already have a large cast. Andy has been gone for 5 years. His son hasn't known his dad for 5 years. And he was a little fellow. Andy's return cheapens the struggle that Diggle had with Deadshot. And it weakens Deadshot in general. Which are much more powerful cheapenings in my book. So It's another reason I hope the show doesn't go there. 

Edited September 16, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

Unless they have Andy being heroic trying to take down HIVE from the inside and then paying the ultimate sacrifice in the finale. Alive & dead in one season, no major adjustments to the cast needed. He could be the Maseo of s4 - but this time he will be heroic throughout the entire journey.

 

There are ways that it can be done that doesn't cheapen the pain & suffering Diggle went through. Regardless of status of Andy's death, Diggle still has suffered & gone through that emotional journey of losing a brother and come out a different person. Having that person back doesn't diminish everything the survivors/loved ones went through. Just like bringing SL back in s2, did not diminish all the pain, suffering & consequences that resulted because of her death for LL & QL.

 

As for Deadshot, there are multiple angles they could take. He could have been working with Andy and part of the plan. He could have been secretly Argus. There are ways to write it that still maintains Deadshot's street cred & talents. He could have really killed Andy & someone brought Andy back to life without his knowledge.

[dtissagirl]

Charlie Brown impersonation game = strong.

 

[wonderwall]

Can I just say......... Thea looks so badass and so awesome in the promo pics?

 

I especially love this one:

 

[dtissagirl]

Those strings hanging off her suit are driving me nuts. Do they latch on to Laurel's buckles or something?

[apinknightmare]

I really need a criminal to recognize Laurel. There isn't a single thing about her disguise that actually disguises who she is. She looks like she's dressed up for the City's Halloween gala, haha.

[catrox14]

My Gods. That's beautiful. All Hail Willa Holland!

[kismet]

Those pics look good. Random musings:

FS -I am loving FS hair so far. Its a good length & I like the softer curls. Perhaps the hair dept lost the 80s pageant queen hairspray this season (thx goodness).

 

Dig - I really do enjoy his new outfit without the new leather jacket (think he old one fit him better) & most def without that ridiculous helmet

 

OQ - The suit looks better on the mannequin with the black arms showing through. I wish they would incorporate some skin tight black under armour shirt for him to wear under his new turtle power shoulder pads. I love seeing his arms, but I don't need to see his skin. It's both for practical & aesthetic reasons at this point.

 

TQ- Looks pretty badass with her stances - I like how WH carries herself in her costume so far, its very believable on her (even if the strings do bother me at times)

Edited September 16, 2015 by kismet

[Carrie Ann]

OQ - The suit looks better on the mannequin with the black arms showing through. I wish they would incorporate some skin tight black under armour shirt for him to wear under his new turtle power shoulder pads. I love seeing his arms, but I don't need to see his skin. It's both for practical & aesthetic reasons at this point.

 

They've evolved the costumes enough times for me to believe that something like that will happen sooner rather than later. Stephen's already made remarks about the practicality issue, and they're not even into freezing cold night shoots yet. Come winter, I suspect he will make some...suggestions for alterations.

[kismet]

They've evolved the costumes enough times for me to believe that something like that will happen sooner rather than later. Stephen's already made remarks about the practicality issue, and they're not even into freezing cold night shoots yet. Come winter, I suspect he will make some...suggestions for alterations.

I loved the progression of SA's comments about the new suit, when he was all excited about the new design & it being cool with it being sleeveless as homage and stuff. Cue a few weeks into shooting, he's all like it might not have been that practical. All I could think of was - we all made similar comments about practicality months ago when it was first released. Even months before then when they rumored a new suit & we were discussing pros & cons of new suit ideas.

 

What I love about SA is he part hybrid fanboy & storyteller. He gets the bigger picture of his character and what would be cool for the show, but also what makes more practical sense. I really hope they let him have more of a say on the show, because I think he would a positive asset to the show from a creative standpoint. He seems to keep his ear to the street and has a sense of what people want and what makes a good character/story.

[Morrigan2575]

Can I just say......... Thea looks so badass and so awesome in the promo pics?

 

I especially love this one:

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the neutral colored mask. I also need those strings to be cut but, other than that I like her outfit