Arrow Villains: They Failed This City

[kismet]

I want this to be true and am almost hoping for it to be true, but this show is wonky like that. Though they might go for it and the final blow to Felicity will be finding out that her dad didn't even come for her after a twenty year absence, he came for Oliver.

I have my own personal headcanon going on that Ray also recruited PapaSmoak to be on the PT board, or at least work for the company and never put together that he was FS's dad since probably different last names. Or PS could have just been reading his monthly things to steal from SC bad-guy publication. So PapaSmoak was coming to the presentation to see what the new tech he can steal or manipulate is going to be.

 

It's just pure criminal advantage that PapaSmoak returned now. I don't think it had anything to do with GA or FS. He saw an opportunity to steal what he wanted and took advantage. He never came back to interact with FS. In fact, I believe that he is only going to interact with his daughter now to get more criminal advantage or more stuff. Of course because it is TV, some emotions will bleed into their interactions. But the sole reason he is SC is to make $$ and launch his devious/evil plans.

 

Which is partially why I hope they don't kill him off because it would be great to have a recurring villain that has emotional ties to TA, so every job he takes that crosses TA will have some emotional overlap without being overdramatic. In many ways I want him to be like one of the Derevko sister on Alias. They all have their own agendas, but sometimes they have to alter their plans because of the emotional connection to the good guys. However, I don't want him elevated to MM status, where he just hangs around not being held responsible for any of his bad actions and having characters pretzeled to make him relevant. Just bring him back once a season to get into some trouble or help TA get out of trouble with something in it for him.

[bijoux]

It's just pure criminal advantage that PapaSmoak returned now. I don't think it had anything to do with GA or FS. He saw an opportunity to steal what he wanted and took advantage. He never came back to interact with FS. In fact, I believe that he is only going to interact with his daughter now to get more criminal advantage or more stuff. Of course because it is TV, some emotions will bleed into their interactions. But the sole reason he is SC is to make $$ and launch his devious/evil plans.

 

I wasn't talking about his grand plans to bring down SC, actually, only him showing up at PT at the end there. My gut instinct was that he was intrigued by Felicity being in charge of the company which had a crucial piece of tech for his plans, but now comments are making me wonder whether he actually turned up there to get a read on Oliver. I'm still not sure that he connected him with GA. I mean if he has, he must be a flipping genius, since no one else managed to do it on their own. Except for Moira. But then, Moira was alwayss the exception.

[kismet]

I think it's pretty obvious that Malcolm Merlyn is the Regina of Arrow (apologies to any OUAT/Regina fans out there). Just like they're never killing LL, they'll never get rid of MM. This show never takes truly big risks for the right reasons.

I was thinking about this the other day... and the for me the biggest difference is that Regina in OUAT has now for at least a few seasons, has been a "good guy". Episode after episode she has earned or at least tried to earn her redemption. Fans may or may not like her, but the writing & canon has indicated that Regina is now a "good guy" who just happens to be named the "evil queen".

 

For me MM is more the Rumpelstiltskin of ARROW. He is a bad & evil guy that the writers keep on trying to make us believe is a good guy. But all indicators from the acting to the writing prove episode after episode that both guys are just bad guys. Yes, they have some human qualities like "love" for their children. However quicker than a BA can run, these guys will turn on their loved ones to get what they want or to further their endgame. The audience is not stupid, we know they are evil. The writers can stop their charades that this time MM or R have changed their wicked ways. It's played out and honestly is wasting both actors' natural talent to be maniacal manipulators.

 

Both characters work when we know they are manipulating the people around them, not when the writers are trying to manipulate us into believing. I don't care if the characters fall prey to their own trusting ways, but I'm tired of being brought on the redemption train, week after week, when I know it goes nowhere. I know both shows love the actors, but the need to find a better way to incorporate them into the show that doesn't waste the character or insult the intelligence of the audience.

[statsgirl]

I agree that Malcolm is somewhat like Rumple but OUaT and Robert Carlisle both embrace the essential evil nature of Rumple.  I think it was almost a relief for the to get Evil Rumple back again.

 

But like Regina, who Lana Parilla believes is more sinned against than sinning. Arrow's EPs believe that Merlyn is basically a good guy who has done bad things because of what happened to him. Even Barrowman has said that Malcolm is the hero of his own story.  So while OUaT is willing to let Rumple go full evil, Arrow is only willing to let Malcolm do evil things for reasons, not because he's an evil man.

 

(I also think that Regina has done some pretty nasty things in the past two seasons even if they are trying to redeem her.  Dark Emma only borrowed Violet's heart, Regina would have kept and crushed it.)

[kismet]

I think that is the problem in a lot of the Flarrowverse villain writing. The Villain believing they are the hero of their own story is class storytelling. But forcing the audience to believe it is a whole other story. Recruiting other characters to also get on board with villain is now good guy is also ineffective.

 

It's one of the reasons I originally liked DD because he was the hero of his own story, but he was unapologetic to the audience. The writers wanted us to love to hate him. Not love him. He is a dark "hero" with his mission to bring about a better SC & rebirth. I also think he is a big picture thinker. He was able to get HIVE to phase 4; but I wonder what is going to happen now that it seems he is stumbling on some of the details - which is why Ruve had to step in.

 

That's not the case with MM, they want us to love him. They want us to buy into his redemption. That he is human and flawed like us - but that is just not the case. He is beyond flawed. He actively chooses to make evil decisions and cross lines. 4 seasons in he has had 4 or more evil plans that he has hatched.

 

OQ may stumble into bad decisions, but it's been a long time since he actively made decision based on pure self-interest. And I've never seen him promoting an evil plan. Even taking down the list was about righting a wrong, granted through not so good methods. But still it is not an evil plan. Keeping his child a secret from FS is a bad decision, but it was not rooted in evil or malignant self-interest. Mostly it was done out of fear and lack of really thinking outside the consequences and ripples of his small decision. He's spent so long living in the ocean of survival, that he forgets what it is like when he has to exist in still waters or normal life - where every movement causes a ripple and a noticeable reaction.

Edited February 6, 2016 by kismet

[statsgirl]

That's not the case with MM, they want us to love him. They want us to buy into his redemption. That he is human and flawed like us - but that is just not the case. He is beyond flawed. He actively chooses to make evil decisions and cross lines. 4 seasons in he has had 4 or more evil plans that he has hatched.

 

Yes,  that's why i think he's a Regina-type villain, who the EPs want us to think is redeemed, while DD is a Rumple-type villain who knows he's evil and is loving it.

[kismet]

I would have felt sorry for Arrow if the writers didn't go out of their way and took a lot of Batman inspired storylines/characters. Like what they expected to happen when the inevitable movie for Batman/JLA was announce? 

 

I have said since the beginning, they should have chosen GA villains and made them badass in a new way. They could have done for a GA villain character what they have done for Felicity. But, these writers seem to have a hard on for Batman and it seems to be catching up to them. 

 

Same. You can't borrow heavily from somebody and then be surprised or upset when they come to collect the debt.

That's the sad thing since there are plenty of cool villains left that Arrow has glossed over that would be fun to adapt.

I don't read the comics. But I do know that they have wasted a lot of quality villains on the show already. Some personal favorites of mine Original Count Vertigo, Blood, Clockman, Isabel, just to name a few...

 

I wonder if perhaps the restructuring of the show from the List/VOTW to taking down a Big Bad has led to some of the dropping in the quality of the writing to be more plotty plot plot. S1 & s2 had more of balance between plot & character development. Yes, there was one major villain that brought about the grand finale, but the show on a weekly basis was not committed to taking down that Big Bad.

 

S3 faltered because it went from who killed SL, which would have been an interesting mystery to gradual solve & avenge over the course of the season. However, it quickly devolved into a LoA recruitment plot, where events had to happened to make the "connect-the-dots" plot work at the sacrifice of character stories or development.

 

When s4 came out and DD was introduced so soon, I thought it would be a good change because here they could have a variety of missions to ffind ways to take him down from ep 1 and then it could escalate to the grand finale. Unfortunately, the plot has stalled and now we just have a repetitive plot every week of the team going out as a group to take down the DD/Ghosts. As compelling as NM's performance is, the actual plots have become pretty boring. It's the B-plots like Calculator or Anarky that in general have garnered more interest because they are a breath of fresh air. What makes it so frustrating though is that to get through their connect the dot plots, they often skip over of jam pack quality plots into episodes and fail to let them breath. A perfect example was FS paralysis in the same ep as Anarky, both storylines ripe with potential jammed into one 45min episode that fails to do justice to either plot, and robs character development at the sake of action sequences because there is just not enough time.

 

I do wonder if the show's insistence on the FB being linked back to the grand finale also robs some of the writers' creative villain juices... Although after what they have produced for s4, I'm beginning to think that have just run out of juice for the FBs. All the things that worked in past seasons have stopped working.

 

Part me thinks the show should go back to VOTW it was repetitive in nature, but at least it introduced new characters, dynamics or provided for different types of missions. However, with the VOTW model it also rushed through a lot of good villains. So it is a quandary, because s1&2 were really compelling, s3 was a failure and s4 has been a mixed bag. NM is killing it as DD, but the whole plot has been pretty redundant. Meanwhile, as the season advances more character development has been squashed in the background to allow time for some of the Big Bad plot exposition.

[bijoux]

I don't think The Count was wasted. In fact, I would say he was the best used villain of the week in the history of the show. They didn't try to cram him in too much, but he'd rather pop up once you almost forgot about him. I even liked the idea of his successors and then Peter Stormare killed it for me. I just found him distractingly bad and I love him, plus this was supposed to be a really perfect outlet for him. Turned out, not so much.

 

The Count is in fact really reflective of how the villains were utilized in the first two seasons. The Huntress, Frank Bertinelli, China White... All of them would go away, either beaten or having run away, and then turn back up. 

[Primal Slayer]

Hopefully next season they introduce these baddies, especially Chesire of all people.

 

But to many of Green Arrow villains were used as votw instead of being the big time villains they should have been.

[Chaser]

Young Justice. You were gone to soon.

[kismet]

I don't think The Count was wasted. In fact, I would say he was the best used villain of the week in the history of the show. They didn't try to cram him in too much, but he'd rather pop up once you almost forgot about him. I even liked the idea of his successors and then Peter Stormare killed it for me. I just found him distractingly bad and I love him, plus this was supposed to be a really perfect outlet for him. Turned out, not so much.

 

The Count is in fact really reflective of how the villains were utilized in the first two seasons. The Huntress, Frank Bertinelli, China White... All of them would go away, either beaten or having run away, and then turn back up. 

I meant wasted in the sense that they killed them and can't bring them back. How they actually wrote them was phenomenal. I loved the way they used certain VOTW & recurring villains in previous seasons.

 

I loved how the original Count was used, I loved how he was killed. Seriously, one of my fav OQ & O/F scenes of the series (top 3). I'm just bummed it happened during the realistic portion of the show when that particular Count can't come back from the dead to reek havoc. I never got into the 2nd Vertigo, I must admit I was glad they passed the title. I was glad that they hired Stormare. But then disappointed how they wrote him & his performance. I have loved him in previous projects. Most recently, I loved him in Graceland playing a similar character. I don't know why he didn't click in the role on ARROW for me. Perhaps its because I loved the crazy of the original Count. The new Count felt more businessman, than madman. I do wonder if we will see the Count back whenever they decide to have the Bratva portion of OQ's life.

[kismet]

The magic theme this year is not their strongest Bad Guy power and its not the perfect match for the show, but I'm OK with it. I really wish they would get back to the basics of s1 & s2 bad guys. I personally prefer the more realistic tone of s1 & s2. However, I most definitely prefer DD & his magic over Ras & his weird obsession with OQ needing to lead the LoA. Plus bonus, I'm getting a lot of Potter references and feels so even if its dumb for Arrow, its still a nice comforting feeling sorta like eating low-fat mac & cheese.

I do not think the show has done a good job explaining the motives of DD, Andy or HIVE for that matter. But I understand it better than whatever they were trying to pull off with s3 LoA and destiny/prophecy bs. Magical forces, light v darhk, good v. evil are tropey but believable plot mechanisms for me. I also understand revenge, egomaniacs wanting to take over the world for reasons. And even though I don't understand the whole corn & dome under the world plan yet, there is enough planning there that I can see the superbad thinking it might be successful. Which is something they failed at in s3.

Ras never had a successful plan to do whatever it was he planned to do. As soon as they had Ras dress up as the Arrow, the show lost me because all of the sudden Ras wanted to take out SC in one last big hurrah and spend an obsessive amount of time with OQ in candlelight (not that I blame him on that). But I was totally onboard for Ras avenging SL & then pursuing a peaceful retirement in Boca and leaving his legacy to his daughter. I thought s3a with the final battle on the cliff was good ending for Ras. But then the writers remembered they had to work MM back into the Big Bad but not as the Big Bad storyline and that's where it got wonky. The plotlines & show quality completely deteriorated after that (with 320 being the only exception). As much as they have meandered with DD & did a lot of rinse/wash/repeat, I still think overall DD & MAGIC was a better big bad superpower & strategy than s3. Even MM works better in s4 pretzeled back into the plot as a suck-up turncoat weaseling himself in with the big bad while slowly planning his own masterplan to get power.

[kismet]

I saw a twitter post about the Count being mentioned on the Flashback episode, I must have missed it. Did it happen?

Because part of me is wondering if Rolph's Kovar has been planning his revenge since s1. The original Count implied that there was a lot resources helping him complete his mission in SC and take down OQ. Bratva has been involved in every Count's operations. I used to think Slade was behind financing the Count's s2 return, but perhaps it was Kovar. And now that MM is meddling in bringing Kovar back to life, I do wonder if there will be some big reveals in the last couple episodes that Kovar was behind some of the last 5 years of Villains, with MM helping to also support this revenge plot.

Prometheus's father was on the List, so that helps link him to more than just SC. I don't think Prometheus will be the final present day Villain. I think it will be revealed that there is another mastermind behind this season's evil.

[BkWurm1]

Chase mentioned the Count and wanted Oliver to confess the truth about when he put the three arrows into him or Chase would put three arrows into Oliver.  Oliver didn't know what he wanted him to say.  

But I don't recall the count being mentioned in the flashbacks.  

Edited March 23, 2017 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Thanks @BkWurm1. It was really hard to catch all of what Adrian talked about and I had missed the first few min, so I thought I might have missed something big.

I do think that Kovar being alive, and brought back to life by MM will be critical to the story. I do think that he will be shown to be behind some of the things that have happened in SC. And I do wonder if he will be behind the funding of the Counts and perhaps some of the recurring villains.

I could see them making Kovar the Ultimate Big Bad of this season, and Prometheus just one of his collaborators/puppets. Similar to how Isabelle was used by Slade.

Edited March 24, 2017 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, kismet said:

Thanks @BkWurm1. It was really hard to catch all of what Adrian talked about and I had missed the first few min, so I thought I might have missed something big.

I do think that Kovar being alive, and brought back to life by MM will be critical to the story. I do think that he will be shown to be behind some of the things that have happened in SC. And I do wonder if he will be behind the funding of the Counts and perhaps some of the recurring villains.

I could see them making Kovar the Ultimate Big Bad of this season, and Prometheus just one of his collaborators/puppets. Similar to how Isabelle was used by Slade.

I'd welcome that twist and it's exactly where my mind went when we saw he was alive (a little spare LP water maybe?) but then people reminded me that we still have the flashbacks for another six episodes so while he will have had a hand in Unidac Industries and thus the Uprising, there's still a good chance he stays in the past rather than the present.  But it would be cool if he did show up in the present.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

Not sure if anyone will see this, and I didn't know where else to put this, but since I'm rewatching and I'm halfway through the second season, I finally figured out just what it is that bugged/bugs me about Isabel, aside from the ???reasons for joining up with Slade. It's her face. I know this is mean, but more and more, whenever she pouts when she speaks (which happens 99% of the time), she reminds me more and more of the Planet of the Apes characters. And not the humans. And not from the recent reboot of the franchise, either.  I'll see myself out now.

P.S.

Unlike others, I think Slade has been the best villain of this show. Chase has just devolved into moustache twirling MUAHAHAHAHA villainy for me to take him seriously.

Edited April 1, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[BkWurm1]

She just looks like Simon's kid sister to me.  :D  She occasionally found her food problematic.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

She just looks like Simon's kid sister to me.  :D  She occasionally found her food problematic.  

Who?

[BkWurm1]

21 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Who?

Firefly/Serenity reference.  :)

[kismet]

I was thinking as much as I love JS/Prometheus/Chase this season, I really hope they kill him and leave him dead. He is awesome but I don't find him as endearing as MM or DD. Perhaps because his crusade is more psychopathic vendetta than a power grab. But while I enjoyed MM, DD & the other villains resurrection on LoT, I hope Chase is truly dead at the end of the season and not just Flarrowverse dead.

*Unless of course there is another musical episode and I would get to see JS show us his amazing sing & dance skills as a one time treat.

[BkWurm1]

I don't want him around like Malcolm, but I want him alive so every once and awhile he can escape for an episode or two and throw together some crazy, complicated, scheme. But mostly off screen until reveal time.  

[Lady Calypso]

I do love Chase/Prometheus/JS, and I love that he's the one to bring the life back into Stephen Amell. I mean, poor guy was looking depressed as hell throughout this season and through some of last season. But now, he sounds excited about the show again, judging from interviews and social media posts. I haven't seen him this excited since season 2. Plus, with JS looking like he's having a blast playing a complete psychopath, it's a joy to watch the show again. It took them a lot of time to get to the reveal, though, which I find a total shame. I think it could have been fun to have JS play crazy Adrian Chase/Prometheus for a few more episodes. 

I do think they could just have Chase trapped in ARGUS and they can always bring him out when they want to. Unlike Slade, who is pretty much not going to be making very many cameos if any, Chase could really be an excellent antagonist for Oliver in future seasons if they need a little boost. It didn't work out with Slade/Manu Bennett, but hopefully it works out with JS. So far, I think it really could. 

[kismet]

Well if they keep him alive, then I want him alive and doing stuff outside of SC. No bringing him back from the dead, I'm so over that and the show should be too. It would just be weird for the show to let it's main evil protagonist live - they have never done that ever in a season finale.

[bijoux]

Slade?

[kismet]

24 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Slade?

Slade was killed earlier in s2. He was killed in the flashbacks, so technically he was still killed. Then he was put in the Argus prison later on, when OQ had moved on from killing people. Ras skewered. DD also skewered I think, but definitely killed.

Actually, the only one that ever stayed alive and slinked off was MM in s1. But even they implied that he was killed.

However, with Chase's big "you kill because you like it" schtick, I could see the writers throwing a curveball and keeping Chase alive to prove OQ is not a killer.

[way2interested]

Just now, kismet said:

However, with Chase's big "you kill because you like it" schtick, I could see the writers throwing a curveball and keeping Chase alive to prove OQ is not a killer.

You mean the same way they did with Slade in 223?

[kismet]

19 minutes ago, way2interested said:

You mean the same way they did with Slade in 223?

Probably, they do like to repeat themselves. Although I would consider it different should OQ never kill Chase. OQ did technically kill Slade at least once. Problem is nobody stays dead on this show. He believed he had killed Slade, until he popped back up in the present day. OQ lived with the fact that he killed his friend. The only major season long villain that OQ has never killed once is I believe MM, because he was only presumed dead. All the other major villains have been part of the body count. It would be a curveball, if OQ never kills or attempts to kill Chase.

[way2interested]

Just now, kismet said:

Probably, they do like to repeat themselves. Although I would consider it different should OQ never kill Chase. OQ did technically kill Slade at least once. Problem is nobody stays dead on this show. He believed he had killed Slade, until he popped back up in the present day. OQ lived with the fact that he killed his friend. The only major season long villain that OQ has never killed once is I believe MM, because he was only presumed dead. All the other major villains have been part of the body count. It would be a curveball, if OQ never kills or attempts to kill Chase.

Oliver did attempt to kill Chase multiple times so far at this point, though (509 and 516 directly and 518 indirectly), so it's still not really much of a curveball if he ends up killing him or not (unless they actually very last minute pull it out as a plan in 523, and even then it's still pretty similar to 223). 

[kismet]

34 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Oliver did attempt to kill Chase multiple times so far at this point, though (509 and 516 directly and 518 indirectly), so it's still not really much of a curveball if he ends up killing him or not (unless they actually very last minute pull it out as a plan in 523, and even then it's still pretty similar to 223). 

Except he didn't know it was Chase in 509, not sure about 516 (pretty sure he was not aware it was Chase until last week/late end of week before). Let's face it, OQ has never allowed the major villain to live that was not a family connection. Chase while he has been a friend, he is not family. Both MM & Slade were family - it was different. OQ has little loyalty to Chase. If he lets him live, it will be because he is trying to prove something not because of his connection to Chase.

In my mind, I'm pretty sure Chase is going to be killed. But the writers may decide to throw a curveball and let him live. Honestly, I hope Chase just escapes and becomes whereabouts unknown (that would be my first choice). Or he dies at TA's hands, never to be heard from again. Locking him up in a prison would be repetitive & boring. Bringing him back from the dead would be ridiculous and really make me question the writers' abilities. But as long as they don't kill him only to resurrect him, I'll be ok with whatever predictable or surprise choices the writers make.

Edited April 4, 2017 by kismet

[way2interested]

Just now, kismet said:

Except he didn't know it was Chase in 509, not sure about 516 (pretty sure he was not aware it was Chase until last week/late end of week before). Let's face it, OQ has never allowed the major villain to live that was not a family connection. Chase while he has been a friend, he is not family. Both MM & Slade were family - it was different. OQ has little loyalty to Chase. If he lets him live, it will be because he is trying to prove something not because of his connection to Chase.

In my mind, I'm pretty sure Chase is going to be killed. But the writers may decide to throw a curveball and let him live. Honestly, I hope Chase just escapes and becomes whereabouts unknown (that would be my first choice). Or he dies at TA's hands, never to be heard from again. Locking him up in a prison would be repetitive & boring. But as long as they don't kill him only to resurrect him, I'll be ok with whatever predictable or surprise choices the writers make.

Oliver found out Chase was Prometheus in the beginning of 516, and at the end of 516, Oliver says he's going to kill him to him:

Quote

Chase: I'm not going to kill you, and you can't kill me.

Oliver: Yes, Adrian. Yes I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQFOvHKE_Z4

Idk, I just don't see Slade as a "family" connection once he killed Moira, and the fact that Oliver didn't kill Slade was such an important plot point for 223 makes it to me that Oliver deciding that he can't kill Chase for moralistic reasons too much of a rehash from s2. Now explicitly selling it as an ultimate gotcha for Chase and expressing it in that way, or Chase killing himself (which is my gut crack theory) I think could be something they could do to switch it up a bit, or kind of the ways you described it.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 Locking him up in a prison would be repetitive & boring. 

I see it more as a classic comic move.  Hero stops the bad guy and puts him away so that he's available to escape later on and start up the fun all over.  Now if they had him escape and kill off people that Oliver loved, then it becomes a question of being stupid to let him live but if he just creates schemes and mayhem and kills a few redshirts, then he can become that reoccuring villain and we really have never had that beyond Cupid which is on a much smaller scale IMO.    

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

I think JB really did well to push down the campy parts of his performances once he left Doctor Who.  I thought he was properly sketchy Empty Child/Doctor Dances, overall great in Torchwood s2, esp the back half and the finale. I thought he was great in all of s3, and was particularly good in Miracle Day with the Angelo episode.

I agree, he was very good in Children of Earth. I didn't watch the 4th season so i can comment.

I caught him in Zero Dark Thirty, minor role but, he felt a little off, he just couldn't play a bureaucrat. 

Quote

I think JB was really great in the confrontation scene with Tommy when he flipped out on him. I  thought he played that right to the edge without going into camp.  And I thought his scenes with Moira, and his scenes on Corto Maltese with Thea were great and not campy at all.  So I think a death scene with Malcolm he'd be great IMO

I actually have to disagree on most of these, he's been horribly campy, IMO on Arrow. I thought his scene with Tommy and the flashback with Robert (end of S1 episodes) were laughably bad. I knew what they were going for but, he couldn't contain it and it just went campy. It's why I've never enjoyed Meryln as a villain and, have pretty much wanted him dead since S1.

The scene with Moria at the end of 207 was also bad and that's a shame because ST is a fabulous actress and she couldn't save that sceen, IMO.

I can't comment on the rest because I don't remember them.

[Primal Slayer]

Shame Waller isn't around now. Would've been great to have Chase be defeated, locked up and end with Waller coming in "welcome to the Suicide Squad"

[Mellowyellow]

I really liked the actress who played Waller. She was a good Waller!

[Primal Slayer]

To bad they wasted her. She should've been someone even Oliver was a bit intimidated by and a force to be reckoned with. 

[BkWurm1]

17 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I really liked the actress who played Waller. She was a good Waller!

Personality wise she was well cast but it was a shame they felt the need to glamorize and de-age her so drastically.  

[TrueMyth]

I wasn't exactly sure where to put this idea, but it falls under the umbrella of the sinister mood of the show, so maybe villains is the place?

Basically, I was thinking about the way that both Susan and Helix seem to have come off to everyone here vs. how they are ultimately treated in the narrative and/or in writer interviews.  Both got a treatment that makes them seem shady.  Everything we know about Susan or Helix makes us assume that they are ultimately going to betray or hurt our heroes... however WM wants us to know Susan actually has a heart of gold and is a nice person like Oliver claims.  I also thing MG et al. were surprised by the assumption of many (not just here but on other sites) that Helix (not Chase) was responsible for the explosion at the end of 5x19.

One of the things that drew me into loving this stupid show in the first place was some of darker noir aspects.  Moira's complicity with Merlyn, for example, was a huge eye opener.  Many of the city's "elite" were on Oliver's list.  The cops are corrupt (I guess, I mean, they said they were... What happened to that thread? *sigh*).  So when someone gets the shifty edit, or ARGUS tells us they are bad, I'm primed to believe the worst of them and like it.  That's the show, right?

However, I feel the writers often lose sight of the mood they've established.  Or they are doing it almost by rote, but with no intention of following through. They actually did this to me in the third season, too, with Ray.  He got an antagonistic set up to Oliver and Felicity (taking the company, hacking & tracking), and a really ominous edit towards the end of an episode when Felicity reconstructs the plans for a suit component.  We didn't know what was going on, just that he had some obviously weaponized schematics and a really foreboding glower before they cut.  Of course, they never intended for Ray to be more than a romantic rival and mild foil to Oliver.  He never had any sinister intent.

I guess I'm just trying to work out if the writers are doing this intentionally and are trying to play against expectations (in which case, I feel they need more finess on the turn in each case) or if they just get so used to writing shady folk in a "gritty" world that they don't realize the audience needs some clue/reason to develop attachments for these characters, or we'll write them off as bad parts of the setting and won't care if bad things happen to them.

[Morrigan2575]

I still think they had plans for Shady Susan that tied her to Russia and Bratva but, switched gears. Maybe she was always going to be the opposite of Isabel but, it really felt like they kept her around for a reason that never manifested.

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

I guess I'm just trying to work out if the writers are doing this intentionally and are trying to play against expectations (in which case, I feel they need more finess on the turn in each case) or if they just get so used to writing shady folk in a "gritty" world that they don't realize the audience needs some clue/reason to develop attachments for these characters, or we'll write them off as bad parts of the setting and won't care if bad things happen to them.

I think with Ray, comic canon blinded them to how he'd be perceived.  They knew he was going to be a good guy so it didn't occur to them that Ray's dubious activities like stalking Felicity and harassing her about working for him would be taken seriously.  And they probably thought that the scene where Ray goes to his lab to work alone on his real agenda would be a thrilling hint of what was coming for the comic fans in the know.  But of course the fans that didn't know about Ray Palmer or thought there might be a twist to his story on Arrow, would of course assume evil plotting was afoot.  

The reverse I think sort of happened on The Flash with Caitlin.  They knew that Killer Frost had to be evil, so they wrote that when she shows up, Caitlin goes evil.  They just failed to ever explain WHY.  

With Ray they had Felicity tell the audience what a great man he was but didn't really show us this. Instead he was made the competition that we already weren't rooting for in a love triangle.  It's classic writing 101 that the girl in the middle of two choices might not realize what a douchebag one of them is while the show reveals his true nature to the audience. The show runners were just too blinded by their POV to realize what they'd seemingly set up.  

Edited May 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I still think they had plans for Shady Susan that tied her to Russia and Bratva but, switched gears. Maybe she was always going to be the opposite of Isabel but, it really felt like they kept her around for a reason that never manifested.

There are three episodes left for her to be exposed and hit with a van. Maybe we'll find out that's why Thea's been missing for so long. It's not a soul searching quest, she's digging up valid evidence against Susan that will stick.

[BkWurm1]

8 minutes ago, bijoux said:

There are three episodes left for her to be exposed and hit with a van. Maybe we'll find out that's why Thea's been missing for so long. It's not a soul searching quest, she's digging up valid evidence against Susan that will stick.

I'd crowdfund that.  

[johntfs]

So the finale has aired and when all was said and done, I find it hilarious to consider that Adrian Chase not only failed to accomplish his goal, he actually obtained the opposite result: Oliver Queen is actually in a much better situation thanks to Chase's machinations.  Far from ruining Oliver's life, he's actively improved in multiple ways.

Granted he was playing the friend role, but Chase got John Diggle cleared of all charges from the military.

He used Oliver to murder Felicity's boyfriend.  Which had the result of clearing the way for Oliver and Felicity to get back together.

By capturing the team, he forced Oliver to desperate choices in picking allies, which caused him to rebuild bridges with Malcolm Merlyn and Nyssa.  He's also completely reforged his friendship with Slade Wilson.

By forcing Oliver through all those crucibles and tests, he's caused Oliver to confront his own inner demons and finally lay to rest the ghosts of Lian Yu.

He may have caused the death of Malcolm Merlyn.  If he didn't, the way is open for Thea to see him as a real father, providing the foundation for a more permanent alliance with Oliver.  If Merlyn is dead, he was also frequently a selfish asshole whose status as "frenemy" would flip to "enemy" for any reason or none at all.  So Oliver and friends are likely safer with him gone.  Either ways it's a win-win for Oliver.

He's given Oliver a chance to reconnect with his son, William and finally sort out his feelings one way or another.

Sure, there were the explosions, but let's break the possible casualties down, shall we?

Diggle, Felicity, Thea and Quentin certainly survived.  Curtis, Rene and Dinah almost certainly also survived.  Nyssa's too fun a character so she likely lived.  Slade Wilson will probably have an episode where he calls in this favor to get Oliver to help save his son, so Slade probably.  Do the showrunners really want to add the silent, dead-eyed psycho child William to the cast, almost certainly not, so figure Samantha lives to take him home and far away from our TVs.  On the villainous side, Black Siren almost certainly survived.  Talia probably made it as well to allow for a "sisterly rematch."  I could a situation where Anarchy breaks out of jail and teams with Evelyn as a Bow and Arrow Bonnie and Clyde, so I could see Evelyn surviving too.  Digger Harkness, AKA Captain Boomerang is really better known as a Flash villain, plus the Suicide Squad has been a thing on this show in the past.  I can see him living.  And if he's alive, Malcolm fucking Merlyn is certainly still alive.  That guy has more lives than a New Orleans cathouse.  Hell even the guard at the front was probably moved to safety somewhere.

Bottom lining it, it's highly likely that the only casualty resulting from Adrian Chase shooting himself in the head to set off the bombs was Adrian Chase.  I'm remembering a line, something about sound and fury signifying nothing.

[BkWurm1]

I think all the "good" guys live.  

I think Digger and Evelyn are dead (at least until the show wants one of them to show up alive.)  

With Malcolm, I think the characters will presume he is dead but most of the audience i bet doesn't buy it.  Even if we never see him again, I like to think that never seeing him again is because he finally listened to Thea and gave her what she wanted - him out of her life, but he was able to do it in a way that managed to make her hate him just a  little less.  Also, he secretly steps in to help occasionally without letting anyone know. ;)

Black Siren is most certainly alive.  The only way she wouldn't be alive is if for some odd reason Talia dragged her dead body to some spare Lazarus Pit and dropped her in.  Possible, but unlikely.  I think the suggestion that BS helps Quentin survive is a lot more likely.  

Nyssa is not a villain but unless KL wanted off the show, she has to be alive since the show runners would be fools to close that door without a huge freaking send off.  And as long as Nyssa is alive, it would be dumb to kill Talia and if Nyssa is dead, it would be even more foolish to kill off the closet thing to Nyssa's character that they'd still had.  So Talia is alive, lol.  

Slade being dead or alive or missing is the one that I'm not sure of.  I suspect that if Manu isn't available for the season opener, then they might just say he is missing and leave it up in the air.  But maybe he or the show runners want Slade to go out on a high and consider this his final appearance so come fall he'll be officially pronounced dead.  Slade is a great character but the oddness with the actor just makes up too many variables to predict how what they will do with Slade.  

[statsgirl]

So we should be thanking Chase not only for providing a lot of entertainment this season but also for helping Oliver get back on the right path?

13 hours ago, johntfs said:

Bottom lining it, it's highly likely that the only casualty resulting from Adrian Chase shooting himself in the head to set off the bombs was Adrian Chase.  I'm remembering a line, something about sound and fury signifying nothing.

It is Macbeth, upon hearing the new of the death of his wife:

Quote

She should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
— To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.

[leopardprint]

20 hours ago, johntfs said:

Bottom lining it, it's highly likely that the only casualty resulting from Adrian Chase shooting himself in the head to set off the bombs was Adrian Chase.  I'm remembering a line, something about sound and fury signifying nothing.

I've been saying since 518 that Chase hasn't actually accomplished anything except killing poor, forgotten Billy but seeing it listed out like that is pretty funny. He fixed Oliver's life, hahaha. They should have had Oliver take some sort of permanent loss like being impeached at least? 

[johntfs]

On 5/27/2017 at 0:36 AM, leopardprint said:

They should have had Oliver take some sort of permanent loss like being impeached at least?

Nah, I like it better that Chase, vengeful, utterly petty man that he was, not only failed to achieve his goals, but left Oliver in an arguably much better place than if he'd done nothing at all.

If he'd done nothing and never arrived on the scene, John Diggle would be in some secret prison or executed.  Felicity might be on her way to marrying Billy.  Tobius Church would have outed Oliver as the Green Arrow in all likelihood.  The Vigilante might well have killed Oliver.  And Talia al Ghul, unhampered by Adrian's insistence on breaking down Oliver in a specific way probably would have murdered the fuck out of Felicity, Thea and any number of Oliver's other friends and loved ones.  And even if all of that stuff had been resolved, Oliver would likely still be carrying the burden of survivor's guilt that caused him to sabotage so many of his relationships.

So, all in all, on behalf of Oliver Queen, thank you, Adrian Chase, for making the world a better place for Oliver Queen.

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, johntfs said:

Sure, it turned out that way, but Ra's did as he did because he believed he had to.  Granted that he wasn't as good as could have been, but I never said he was.  My basic point was that he wasn't nearly as bad as he could have been either.  And for all the stuff that happened in Season 3, let's also not forget that Ra's aid was one reason that Season 2 didn't end with Star City becoming a radioactive wasteland roamed by Mirakuru zombies.

Nope.  Sara traded her freedom for some help. Ra's didn't help because it was the right thing to do.  And Sara made her offer to Nyssa.  I'm going to assume anything good about the league was Nyssa's fault. lol.

13 hours ago, johntfs said:

If he'd done nothing and never arrived on the scene, John Diggle would be in some secret prison or executed.  Felicity might be on her way to marrying Billy.  Tobius Church would have outed Oliver as the Green Arrow in all likelihood.  The Vigilante might well have killed Oliver.  And Talia al Ghul, unhampered by Adrian's insistence on breaking down Oliver in a specific way probably would have murdered the fuck out of Felicity, Thea and any number of Oliver's other friends and loved ones.  And even if all of that stuff had been resolved, Oliver would likely still be carrying the burden of survivor's guilt that caused him to sabotage so many of his relationships.

Lol.  I think you are giving Chase too much credit.  

[johntfs]

48 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Nope.  Sara traded her freedom for some help. Ra's didn't help because it was the right thing to do.  And Sara made her offer to Nyssa.  I'm going to assume anything good about the league was Nyssa's fault. lol.

Ra's had met Sara before in LoT.  I get the feeling he didn't really approve of her relationship with his daughter because he felt on some level Sara was using Nyssa.  That said, Sara made Nyssa happy.  Ra's loved his daughter and wanted her to be happy as much as possible.  Still, trade or not, as somebody, possibly you, pointed out, Ra's wore the ring.  The only reason the League helped deal with the Mirakurites was because Ra's made it so.  Ultimately Ra's was a person of a much older time who saw himself stuck in a cage of ancient traditions and didn't see the way out.  I also got the feeling that Ra's knew his time was limited.  That Malcolm Merlyn or Damien Darkh would kill him or the Lazurus Pit would drive him completely insane.  So, he decided to give the League over to Oliver, who he felt might have new solutions to old problems.  Figure he decided either that would happen in the "traditional" way or because he took actions that forced Oliver to kill him in duel and take the ring that way.  I think he actually preferred option two.
 

48 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lol.  I think you are giving Chase too much credit.

No, I really don't think so.  Look back through that post.  I think it's hilarious that ultimately Chase's vengeance quest turned out to be nothing more than extreme therapy for Oliver (which is the only kind of therapy with a chance of working on him).

Edited May 28, 2017 by johntfs

[statsgirl]

please ignore, info lost

Edited May 29, 2017 by statsgirl