S11.E01: Out Of The Darkness

[catrox14]

Oh Sue B...that's a great point about bond vs bound.  I like that distinction.

 

I wasn't saying that Destiel would be killed out in fandom but more as a way to push it back in the show by having Dean be in some kind of peculiar/relationship with something like Cas but is female so "no homo" and all that.

 

Yeah I like the idea of Cas and The Darkness dueling for Dean's soul. That would give Cas a purpose again and give him a reason to be TFW at minimum.

 

I like the idea that this is a bizarro!Cas-esque thing. 

 

Thanks for the reply Sue.

[Demented Daisy]

5) Going back to a) how did Amara help Dean and b) how are they bound?

-- a) Does she think she helped Dean because she gave him power when he was wearing the Mark?  I think God (and it was implied by both Crowley and Death) put the 'no dying' protection on Dean.  I think Amara (The Darkness), turned it into a curse. So, rather than a resurrection, the carrier became a demon.  It twisted the soul.  

 

I'm having a lot of problems with the canon they're setting up here.  If, as she says, she has no idea what's happened since she was locked away, how could she have intentionally done anything to the bearer of the Mark?  

 

Of course, the demon thing I always had a problem with, but now I wonder -- how could she have turned the bearer into a demon if demons didn't exist yet?  When Lucifer was given the Mark, he was still an angel.  I argued at the time, and I still think, that it's illogical that the Mark would make one into a demon.  Cain was a demon/Knight of Hell, I reasoned, because of the deal he made with Lucifer, not because of the Mark.  But it appeared I was wrong.  

 

I mean, souls didn't even exist when TD was locked away!  Should TD know that the Mark even existed until she was released?  

 

I suppose it was an unintended consequence?  God's lock wasn't good enough and the evil that was TD seeped through.  Sloppy job there, God.

 

Someone, please, help me here.  (I should probably take a lesson from my husband.  He spends zero time thinking about these things.  He just goes with whatever is given him.  He has a lot less problems with the show, too.  Hmmm....  Wouldn't give me much to do around here, though.  ;-) )

[mertensia]

Demon may be a misidentifcation. The Knights of Hell acted enough like demons to be called demons without actually being demons. Like people calling glass lizards snakes.

I confess I would have loved for Jenna to be all "daddy! I'm bringing you some presents!" into a cellphone in the bathroom.

I too thought the plants were yarrow.

[DittyDotDot]

Could the show be trying to show us how the first demons were made? Perhaps what Lucifer created as demons is something learned from the Darkness? And, perhaps it's not the Mark itself that turns it's bearer into a demon, but the influence of the Darkness whispering through the Mark? 

[mertensia]

Could the show be trying to show us how the first demons were made? Perhaps what Lucifer created as demons is something learned from the Darkness? And, perhaps it's not the Mark itself that turns it's bearer into a demon, but the influence of the Darkness whispering through the Mark?

Or the Darkness could have been using Lucifer all along. He's so arrogant it would never occur to him. Edited October 9, 2015 by mertensia

[Demented Daisy]

Could the show be trying to show us how the first demons were made? Perhaps what Lucifer created as demons is something learned from the Darkness? And, perhaps it's not the Mark itself that turns it's bearer into a demon, but the influence of the Darkness whispering through the Mark? 

 

 

It contradicts years of canon, but... sure, why not?  *sigh*  

 

All this Mark business -- as others have mentioned -- makes Lucifer a victim.  How are Dean, Cain, and Lucifer responsible for their actions if they were unwittingly corrupted by the Mark and/or the Darkness?

 

Did TD corrupt free will?  Ugh, I really hate you sometimes, Carver.

[SueB]

I'm in favor of evil seepage theory. 

[mertensia]

Lucifer being used doesn't make him less evil or less culpaple; he meant to and did do these things.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm in favor of evil seepage theory. 

 

So... confirmation that the Darkness is stronger than God.  God made a leaky lock, but didn't realize that Lucifer's decisions were being influenced by the Darkness.  Which would mean He never tried to strengthen the lock and allowed the Darkness to seep through.

 

Yeah, I have a lot of problems with the implications here.

 

 

Lucifer being used doesn't make him less evil or less culpaple; he meant to and did do these things.

 

 

Being used?  By whom?  The Darkness didn't know what was going on.  TD couldn't have been working through him.  And if it was, doesn't that mean that Lucifer wasn't culpable for his actions?  Because they weren't actually his?

[mertensia]

Lucifer meant to do all that he did whether The Darkness seeped into demon-making or not. This makes him culpable. It!s like me working at a bank and accidentally leaving the vault unlocked and a thief breaks in that night and makes out like a bandit because of what I did. The thief still had to decide to break in and steal and my (in this case) stupidity doesn't make the thief any less culpable.

Depending on its awareness/intelligence level the Darkness could have been looking for a lock-breaker, information or simple beings to mess with. Right now we don't know.

[Demented Daisy]

Lucifer meant to do all that he did whether The Darkness seeped into demon-making or not. This makes him culpable. It!s like me working at a bank and accidentally leaving the vault unlocked and a thief breaks in that night and makes out like a bandit because of what I did. The thief still had to decide to break in and steal and my (in this case) stupidity doesn't make the thief any less culpable.

 

But does it make you culpable as well?  Who is who in your analogy?  Is the robber the Darkness or Lucifer?  Are you Lucifer?

 

Your analogy doesn't work for me.  We're talking about the Darkness corrupting Lucifer.  Before he was given the Mark, he hadn't rebelled.  The implication is that the Mark (or, more accurately, the Darkness working through the Mark) is the reason Lucifer did the things he did.

 

I just re-watched Dean's chats with TD and she only said that she didn't know Death and Death didn't know her.  So, my (new) interpretation is going to be that she didn't know Death because he didn't engage in the fight, not that he didn't exist at the time or she has no knowledge of anything after she was locked away.

 

Nothing makes sense to me otherwise.

[mertensia]

Yeah I'm bowing out of this. You see things your way. I see things mine.

[DittyDotDot]

It contradicts years of canon, but... sure, why not?  *sigh*  

 

All this Mark business -- as others have mentioned -- makes Lucifer a victim.  How are Dean, Cain, and Lucifer responsible for their actions if they were unwittingly corrupted by the Mark and/or the Darkness?

 

Did TD corrupt free will?  Ugh, I really hate you sometimes, Carver.

 

Does it actually go against canon, though? What I mean is, canon has stated that Lucifer created the first demon--Lilith--by twisting and corrupting her soul. Whispering to her in the dark and tempting her to do evil deeds that slowly tarnished her soul and eventually turning it to black smoke. Was that not what The Darkness---seriously, I'm calling it Bob for here on. I just can't keep typing that nonsense for the next nine months--was doing to Lucifer? But, Lucifer isn't human, nor does he have a soul, so he can't become a demon. 

 

Now, I'm not saying I'm happy with what Carver has done, I'm just not sure it doesn't actually work within the established canon. 

 

And, I'd say the only reason Bob could work his machinations on Lucifer was due to Lucifer's own arrogance and jealousies, so I'd say he holds some culpability in it, too. Just because one is being manipulated doesn't mean they aren't also making choices they knew were the wrong choices. So, Bob may have given Lucifer the idea, but it was Lucifer who actually turned that idea into action. Bob had no power to force Lucifer to do anything; Bob could only suggest.

 

I'm in favor of evil seepage theory. 

 

The image this statement incited...Nope. Never mind. Not going there...;)

 

But does it make you culpable as well?  Who is who in your analogy?  Is the robber the Darkness or Lucifer?  Are you Lucifer?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, mertensia, but I think the robber is Lucifer, mertensia would be Bob, in this scenario.

Edited October 9, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[mertensia]

It was actually just a general analogy. But yeah I'd be Bob. The robber would be Lucifer.

[DittyDotDot]

I just re-watched Dean's chats with TD and she only said that she didn't know Death and Death didn't know her.  So, my (new) interpretation is going to be that she didn't know Death because he didn't engage in the fight, not that he didn't exist at the time or she has no knowledge of anything after she was locked away.

 

Nothing makes sense to me otherwise.

 

This was my interpretation as well and does seem to be in-character for Death. He was pretty ambivalent about most things as long as the natural order was maintained.

[Aeryn13]

 

I just re-watched Dean's chats with TD and she only said that she didn't know Death and Death didn't know her.  So, my (new) interpretation is going to be that she didn't know Death because he didn't engage in the fight, not that he didn't exist at the time or she has no knowledge of anything after she was locked away.

 

I have no trouble believing Death didn`t partake in the fight but the way she said it, it sounded like she genuinely didn`t know OF him. And I would assume even if they didn`t meet, Amara would be aware of any entity during her time. I mean, it`s not like there were even that many if you go by the lore so far. We have God and the archangels. The Leviathans but they were already locked up so they might not count. Eve? But that`s a stretch. Death should be smack-dabb in the middle there.

 

When Dean told her, he knew about her, she said that she was surprised and it had been so long she thought noone would remember. To me that made it sound like she was talking about the beings who were around when she was and she didn`t think they would have spread the story. 

 

My fanwank is that Death went by another name then since back then noone actually died. I mean, neither God nor the archangels nor Amara herself nor any pre-biblical being I can think of. If they thought about the concept of their existance ending it was so far into the future, it didn`t matter yet. So, no "Death" per se. Of course I`m not sure what his function would have been then, other then to wait around for very.very far into the future when his contemporaries actually died.

 

I hope we get to hear something from Amara on what or who she DOES happen to know. The names Michael and Lucifer should mean something to her at the very least.

[catrox14]

just re-watched Dean's chats with TD and she only said that she didn't know Death and Death didn't know her.

 

Like I mentioned up-thread this part of the conversation jumped out at me

 

The Darkness said "I don't this know this ...Death.....and he* doesn't know me"  (*emphasis mine.)

 

Why would The Darkness call it a "he" when Dean never said anything about it's gender one way or the other. Is it lazy or a mistake in the writing or was that a purposeful? I'm going with being purposeful.  I think The Darkness knows more than it claims. At least I sure hope so.

 

It seemed to me she was trying to convince Dean that she didn't know Death and I would have believed it if she hadn't said 'he'. It's just a weird thing for the entity to assume the gender of Death when it was not  mentioned at all. (or is this a meta commentary on gender politics?).

 

It's way too early IMO to trust or believe anything the Darkness says or does to Dean nor should we rely or trust what Dean remembers or says about the Darkness.

 

This might have been obvious to others but upon my 3rd rewatch last night, I'm convinced the conversation Dean has with "her" in the Darkness Vortex is not in the same timeline as the events we see on screen, I'm now thinking that 'she'  zapped him out of the car to tell him they will always be bound and show him the Mark. I don't think it was to save him for his sake but for hers. Also thanks to SueB for her reply on the Cas/Dean parallel which kind of made me rethink all the scenes with Dean and the Darkness.

 

IMO, that "UST" moment between the Darkness and Dean had the vibe of AHBL pt 2, when Dean was talking to the Crossroads Demon. The mixture of confusion, temptation, anger, mistrust, distrust, desperation before kissing the Crossroads Demon sealing the deal. I don't know if that's purposeful or just an accident of acting. But it sure pinged that scene for me.

 

I think it's interesting that the Darkness has a look similar to both of the CD that Dean dealt with and like Lisa and Carmen. I don't know if that is on purpose so the Darkness presents itself in a way that is appealing to Dean or an accident of casting. I hope it's the former.

Edited October 9, 2015 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

Why would The Darkness call it a "he" when Dean never said anything about it's gender one way or the other. Is it lazy or a mistake in the writing or was that a purposeful?

 

My money is on lazy. Carver would think of Death as a "he" so naturally that is what he writes. I doubt it would even occur to him that it`s an odd thing for the Darkness to say. Those are the kind of things that writers get pointed out to them online and then go "oh...huh...look at that". If it had been a Joss Whedon line back in Buffy, I would also go with purposeful, at least 95 %. Carver, I`d put the odds at 0,5 %, just to leave a little margin of error.    

 

 

IMO, that "UST" moment between the Darkness and Dean had the vibe of AHBL pt 2, when Dean was talking to the Crossroads Demon. The mixture of confusion, temptation, anger, mistrust, distrust, desperation before kissing the Crossroads Demon sealing the deal. I don't know if that's purposeful or just an accident of acting. But it sure pinged that scene for me.

 

Oh, the parallels were there, shooting-wise at least. Since they cast the Darkness/Amara as a sultry, seductive brunette, I pretty much expected a low-cut cocktail dress though. Just because it would be the obvious choice of costuming for this show in this context. So for my money, the very similar vibe was mostly due to a kind of repetitiveness in style. More so than similar context.

 

I also don`t think the scenes in the void where present tense. Simply because Amara wouldn`t exist in that shape yet if the baby rapidly ages to be her. So she is powerful enough that her "soon to come" look is already available in her, what would you call it, home base? And she brought Dean in and gave him a sneak peak. 

 

Once the baby grows up to be her, he will then think back on her words and question if any of his actions were or are his own so it is very clever mindfuck. Especially so since him saving the baby would feel right for the character without the slightest bit of influencing or darkness manipulation.

 

That said, I did get the feeling that she considers their connection not strictly one-sided. Like, she wasn`t just using and manipulating him but there is an honest interest from her in him. What that is and how it will play out, no idea. But it was the difference to me that set it up apart from the otherwise very similar Crossroads demon scenes where I got zero of that.     

[DittyDotDot]

Once the baby grows up to be her, he will then think back on her words and question if any of his actions were or are his own so it is very clever mindfuck. Especially so since him saving the baby would feel right for the character without the slightest bit of influencing or darkness manipulation. 

 

That's pretty much what I was thinking. When Bob said Dean would always help it and it would always help Dean...yeah, that kinda drove it home. Dean didn't know it was helping Bob and later will probably look back at his insistence to save the baby and wonder if it was him truly wanting to save the baby or if he had been manipulated into to it. That's probably the one part of the episode I found rather compelling.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm just asking questions.  At this point, everything is open to interpretation, as far as I'm concerned.  All I know is that I have more questions after the premiere than I had before it -- and I'm not happy about that.  To each their own.

[catrox14]

I'm just asking questions.  At this point, everything is open to interpretation, as far as I'm concerned.  All I know is that I have more questions after the premiere than I had before it -- and I'm not happy about that.  To each their own.

 

I'm okay with having those questions not answered in this episode because I believe the answers are forthcoming, probably faster than what I would like but I don't think it will take an entire season to answer it.

[Demented Daisy]

I'm okay with having those questions not answered in this episode because I believe the answers are forthcoming, probably faster than what I would like but I don't think it will take an entire season to answer it.

 

That's why I ask questions -- because the answers aren't out there yet.  It's the way I like to engage in discussion.  

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Sam And Dean Have Lots Of Supernatural Female Problems
And leave it to Crowley to hold off on getting back to his body until after the orgy.

[catrox14]

That's why I ask questions -- because the answers aren't out there yet.  It's the way I like to engage in discussion.  

 

 

Right. I  was just responding with why I am not overly worried right now. I don't think anything here is shutting down that discussion. Or at least I sure hope it's not being perceived that way at all.

 

Questions are fun. It's hard to answer when we still don't have the rest of the info as of yet.

Edited October 9, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

That said, I did get the feeling that she considers their connection not strictly one-sided. Like, she wasn`t just using and manipulating him but there is an honest interest from her in him. What that is and how it will play out, no idea. But it was the difference to me that set it up apart from the otherwise very similar Crossroads demon scenes where I got zero of that.     

 

I agree, and to me, it is interestingly similar to how Lucifer sometimes related to Sam. Lucifer wanted Sam to like him. He wanted to "help" Sam and kept insisting that their working together could be mutually beneficial, and he at times seemed honestly hurt that Sam would insist the opposite - like when Sam asked why would Lucifer not harm Dean, Lucifer was of course I wouldn't hurt Dean. I don't want you to be unhappy.

 

With Lucifer part of this was arrogance - of course Sam should be honored/happy/etc. to have me interested in him. It will be interesting to see what the smog monster's modus operandi is and why she considers or wants hers and Dean connection to be mutually beneficial.

[dragonsbite]

There are yellow and purple-pinkish wildflowers in the field where Dean wakes. They really focused on that. I don't think it was just an establishing shot or for the pretties.

 

How did it get to be spring when it was slushy muddy fall (winter?)in the finale. Everything was brown and dead looking. Nothing bright and pretty like where Dean woke up. If it was supposed to be IMMEDIATELY after those events and they still wanted it to be the exact same time why show us those flowers? Methinks this is for reason.

 

Good catch about the flowers. The yellow one, which is the first to be focused on, is a tansy -- part of the aster family. It's a summer-blooming flower. In Greek, Tansy means immortality. Many societies over time have used tansies as a medical herb (including helping with fertility and, conversely, inducing abortions). An overdose can be toxic. However, in modern times, it's most likely use would be a component in a treatment for fevers, feverish colds, and jaundice. As in, curing you of something contagious. It's also an effective insect repellant.

I can't identify the purplish flower, which is driving me crazy. But I'd lay odds that its purpose is similar to the yellow one.

[Wynterwolf]

Good catch about the flowers. The yellow one, which is the first to be focused on, is a tansy -- part of the aster family. 

 

Per Witchipedia:

Tansy is feminine in nature, and ruled by the element of water and the planet Venus. It is also associated with Gemini. In the Victorian language of flowers it is a declaration of war.

Tansy is sacred to Mary. It is also associated with immortality and eternal youth and is sacred to both Hebe and Ganymede. Its further association with death makes it suitable for honoring all Gods and Goddesses associated with death and rebirth.

Tansy is used in spells, charms and potions for longevity.

Tansy oil has been used to dress the dead, and wreaths of tansy are suitable funeral decorations.

 

[catrox14]

Holy crap. That's really interesting...Hmmm.....

[dragonsbite]

Holy crap. That's really interesting...Hmmm.....

 

And now you know why it's driving me crazy that I can't identify the other flower.

[Mick Lady]

You guys are driving me crazy. catrox, SueB (you used to soothe me!) Awesom and the aptly named Demented, I have nothing to add. I'm making a spread sheet of all these theories.

 

No, I not kidding! I do shit like that.

 

Now Mick's talking to himself, so there's that.

[SueB]

Soothing thoughts for Mick Lady *use Bob Singer's voice, like on the self-healing tape*:

- It's the Freakin' Winchesters, they WILL succeed

- Sam just was overcompensating on the "saving people", he'll be cured.  Maybe once the Baby is no longer in his vicinity, he won't die. OR maybe an angel will show up (I mean, this IS kind of an apocalyptic mess... they should pay attention). Or maybe he figures out a cure. He's a smart cookie.  He's going to be FINE.

- Not gonna lie, I'm worried about Dean. OTOH, Dean has EXCELLENT instincts.  It's like the greatest gift he has.  As Sam has said before, 'when push shoves' (which is, I presume, a shortened form of 'when push comes to shove'), Dean does the right thing. Yes he can be impulsive (hello, Mark of Cain!) but when he's been working on a thorny issue in his mind, his instincts are spot on.  He'll overcome the potential influence the Darkness may exert.  Hell, he overcame the Mark of Cain for a year and he was WEARING it. 

- Cas baby will be fine.  It's gonna hurt for a while, but he'll get better. And at this point... His DEAN IS OKAY.  Really, Cas is mentally in a good spot.

 

Finally, this is going to get some resolution in the next episode or two.  We'll be on sure-er footing for the rest of the season. I'm 100% confident of this because that's how the show rolls.

Edited October 10, 2015 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

Never mind.  Wrong thread.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[call me ishmael]

 

Also Dean's conversation/visions of the Darkness are odd.

 

In the Vortex of Darkness (tm me) when Dean first sees her and speaks to her, he didn't seem afraid nor particularly worried about her. He just says "Hey what the hell is going on here!" without much fear showing. This may have been bravado on Dean's part but it was odd.

 

This exchange between Dean and the Darkness I thought was peculiar.

 

DN: "I like it here with you. I haven't felt this much peace in a long time"

Dean:"Let's get something straight. I'm not here to bring you peace. I know what you are?"

DN:"Really? I've been gone so long I didn't think anyone remembered." 

Dean:"Well, Death painted a hell of a picture"

DN:"I don't know this Death and HE doesn't know me"**

Dean"So are you saying shouldn't try and kill you right now?"

DN: "Am I saying that or are you?" ***

 

**Why would the Darkness a primordial entity call Death a HE when Dean never mentioned Death's gender. DN(the Darkness) seems to be lying there.

 

***What is this about? Could Dean actually be the Darkness?....

 

I'm throwing this out there because Crowley possessed a female meatsuit. Hannah and Raphael swapped to opposite gender meatsuits.

 

I'm not entirely sure what I mean here but given all the meatsuit gender swapping

 

Could the Darkness have saved Dean via this other meatsuit that is Amara. Maybe Dean is trying to save himself?

 

I dunno...just weird thinky thoughts.

I'm inclined to go with the lazy writing theory on the gender. But i wonder if the strangeness isn't in Darkness's reference to "this death." Were there others? Why would all the angels and demons be scared of it if it didn't bring some form of death. Perhaps in the olden days the Darkness simply caused non existence? That would make it pretty threatening to all.

[catrox14]

I'm inclined to go with the lazy writing theory on the gender. But i wonder if the strangeness isn't in Darkness's reference to "this death." Were there others? Why would all the angels and demons be scared of it if it didn't bring some form of death. Perhaps in the olden days the Darkness simply caused non existence? That would make it pretty threatening to all.

 

OHHH! That's a really interesting idea about "this Death".  I never thought about that. I like that a lot and it would make sense. Hmmm....

[Mick Lady]

Soothing thoughts for Mick Lady *use Bob Singer's voice, like on the self-healing tape*:

- It's the Freakin' Winchesters, they WILL succeed

- Sam just was overcompensating on the "saving people", he'll be cured.  Maybe once the Baby is no longer in his vicinity, he won't die. OR maybe an angel will show up (I mean, this IS kind of an apocalyptic mess... they should pay attention). Or maybe he figures out a cure. He's a smart cookie.  He's going to be FINE.

- Not gonna lie, I'm worried about Dean. OTOH, Dean has EXCELLENT instincts.  It's like the greatest gift he has.  As Sam has said before, 'when push shoves' (which is, I presume, a shortened form of 'when push comes to shove'), Dean does the right thing. Yes he can be impulsive (hello, Mark of Cain!) but when he's been working on a thorny issue in his mind, his instincts are spot on.  He'll overcome the potential influence the Darkness may exert.  Hell, he overcame the Mark of Cain for a year and he was WEARING it. 

- Cas baby will be fine.  It's gonna hurt for a while, but he'll get better. And at this point... His DEAN IS OKAY.  Really, Cas is mentally in a good spot.

 

Finally, this is going to get some resolution in the next episode or two.  We'll be on sure-er footing for the rest of the season. I'm 100% confident of this because that's how the show rolls.

 

Have I told you lately that I love you?

[Mick Lady]

OHHH! That's a really interesting idea about "this Death".  I never thought about that. I like that a lot and it would make sense. Hmmm....

 

I just think by "this Death", she meant to mean the word itself was foreign to her. She had no idea what "Death" implied.

 

I still think Death himself is still alive. If he's not, how did the people in the hospital die? The guy trying to break down the door that Sam was watching seemed to just die suddenly.

 

I'll have to rewatch this episode. I think I'll do so now....

[Mick Lady]

Rewatch.

 

Cas doesn't seem to know removing the MOC released "The Darkness", he said "Why would I talk about The Darkness?"

 

Cas also seemed to know any help from Heaven would result in him not seeing Sam and Dean for not some time. Before that, he had called upon his "brothers" Did "The Darkness" being released change his mind?

[catrox14]

 

Cas also seemed to know any help from Heaven would result in him not seeing Sam and Dean for not some time. Before that, he had called upon his "brothers" Did "The Darkness" being released change his mind?

 

No, I think Cas called on the other angels because he didn't want to hurt anyone else and needed to know that Dean was okay before he said goodbye.

[Mick Lady]

Works for me.

 

On rewatch, Cas did seem surprised that the angels meant to do him harm.

 

I'm so wrapped up on this show! I love it. I like a show you have to view an episode a few times to really "get". 

[catrox14]

Works for me.

 

On rewatch, Cas did seem surprised that the angels meant to do him harm.

 

I'm so wrapped up on this show! I love it. I like a show you have to view an episode a few times to really "get". 

 

I think Cas was expecting to for the angels to take him back to Heaven and he would face punishment there. I don't think he expected rogue angels would take their own pound of flesh.

[call me ishmael]

I just think by "this Death", she meant to mean the word itself was foreign to her. She had no idea what "Death" implied.

 

I still think Death himself is still alive. If he's not, how did the people in the hospital die? The guy trying to break down the door that Sam was watching seemed to just die suddenly.

 

I'll have to rewatch this episode. I think I'll do so now....

That is possible but then there is the "He" aspect. She clearly is imagining some sort of personage.  And if there was no "death" in her time why would everyone have been so afraid of her?

[Aeryn13]

She did understand the concept of "killing" perfectly well. When Dean asked her if he shouldn`t kill her then and there, she wasn`t confused about his meaning. So IMO she knows what killing and dying are but somehow doesn`t know "Death" as a person.

 

In the end, I put it all down to lazy writing. Carver is not the guy who would even realize the implications, let alone work them in purposefully.   

[Partly]

Hello!  New to the board and late to the game (or at least this thread) but I thought I'd add my two cents re: Darknesses statement of "I don't know this Death and HE doesn't know me".

 

I think that she was referring to not knowing this *current incarnation of* Death rather than the concept of death itself, otherwise there is no point to her saying "and he doesn't know me." To me, she sound slightly pissed that someone who never knew her was telling tales. Why should we trust that Death was telling the truth?   Maybe the reason Death was so set on making sure that Darkness didn't return is because she had a hand in the demise of the prior Death (or Deaths).  

 

I also think it's a mistake to assume that while Darkness was "away", she had no knowledge of what was happening in the world.  She seems very up-to-date considering when she was locked up the world was nothing more than primordial ooze.  Maybe she was aware of everything that was happening, after all, we don't know the extent of her abilities.  Darkness is a complete unknown.  Neither the Demons or Angels know anything, they only have rumors and legends to go on. And we know how inaccurate those can be on this show.  

 

Final thought: The whole point of the first episode what that "saving people" meant saving everyone, or at least trying to.  Both Dean and Sam have walked on the dark-side but both, in the end, chose the side of good.  What if the point of this season is to "save" Darkness?  Or at least to offer her the ability to chose what she is.  

[Mick Lady]

Hi Partly! Welcome! (Everyone here is insane, just sayin')

 

Maybe the reason Death was so set on making sure that Darkness didn't return is because she had a hand in the demise of the prior Death (or Deaths).

 

 

I thought there was only one Death. He did tell Dean that he and God didn't remember which one of them was older.

[Partly]

I thought there was only one Death. He did tell Dean that he and God didn't remember which one of them was older.

He did say that. Of course, he could have been lying. After all, that's when Dean and Sam were going around killing the Horsemen. He may have just woven a really good tale so that Dean didn't try and kill him. We only have Death's word on any of that and Supernatural beings are usually not very trustworthy on this show.

[mertensia]

Oh man. I thought you wrote "locked up with primordial ooze" and I thought "God that's a depressing way to spend eternity!"

[Myrelle]

So the episode seemed to indicate that Dean(and Jensen) will have a myth-arc sl in s11 after all, too. Yay! for that-if it pans out.I thought we were given a similar type of bait with Abaddon when she was first introduced, but we know how that went. Still, he was singled out by physically being removed from Sam, so that's a better sign. I'm loathe to call it Chosen One status, though-at least not until after the second episode which Carver has already told us should be thought of as the second part of a two part episode. Somehow, I just can't see them leaving Sam without any Chosen One status and he's already been set-up for sainthood with that ridiculously placed and poorly written speech that came off as more of a lecture than anything else to me. Blech. Carver still has no clue how to write a balanced dialogue/discussion between the brothers and again the time and place were all wrong for anything Sam said to be taken seriously. But I'm sure this was Carver's idea of the brothers dedicating themselves back to being heroes who should be trying to save everyone-even though that is still as virtually as impossible as it was when Dean believed in it. Whatever. They now have a set-up for Sam to be the Chosen One of the Light-which is what they were going for by giving him, and him a speech to Dean that told us he still values the idea of saving everyone, while Dean clearly had forgotten and needed to be reminded. Oh, and nevermind that Sam said he would damn the entire planet all over again just to save Dean-apparently when Sam does it, that doesn't count as being uncaring or more evil than good(yup, still bitter about that Purge speech). So yet another BM(and man, I so do NOT! mean brother moment) that threw Dean under the bus to prop Sam. What a surprise-not. And people wonder why no few in the fandom have lost it entirely for the brothers together forever and ever. Sorry. Had to get the rant out first.

Apart from the lecture, I actually liked the rest of the episode. Wonderful and sizzling chemistry between Dean and TD.

The UST WAS off the charts. I thought he was going to take her right then and there, and part of me wanted him to, but I'm glad he didn't because yes, then the idea that the baby was his would have run like wildfire through the fandom. I never thought that was the case. I think the baby was "born" the second that the Darkness was released. I remember some discussion here about something that flew out of the black cloud right before it enveloped the Impala. I'm guessing THAT was Amara and that she took Dean to give him, yes, a sneak peek(love this!) of what she would look like when she grows up. I think the potential for this Dean storyline is amazing. He WILL save that baby and likely the child she becomes also and he will wonder if it's his own thought to do this or TD's. As was pointed out in another post, great fodder for messing with Dean's mind because saving people IS indeed the larger part of his DNA where it concerns hunting. I'm hopeful, but not falling over myself with joy and won't be until the sl is resolved and I know that he will have an active and equal part in the heroics that will no doubt be involved in saving the world again. Dean, as the inside man here, could be what makes the difference. And if there truly is a connection with him(which I totally think she feels there truly is), then yes, this could be great sl for Dean and Jensen.

The mention of the cage doesn't fill me with happiness and won't if it's only about Lucifer and/or if being Michael's vessel gets handed over to Sam/JP. That's my line in the sand for this show, as my fondest wish since it was first hinted at was for Dean to allow Michael in so that we could get to see Jensen Ackles play a role that, IMO, he was born to play-The Commander of the Heavenly Host as he was described by the priest in Houses of the Holy. If they give Michael to Sam and JP, I'm out for well and good. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

I thought the Crowley stuff was hilarious-my favorite line concerning the orgy came from the husband-"I prayed on it." I LOL at that.

I liked Cas' reaction to finding out that Dean was okay, but honestly, I hope that he's cured of the stupid attack dog spell sooner rather than later. I'm foolishly hoping for more Dean and Cas this season than the paltry little we've been given in the last few seasons.

Oh, on more thing, I saw on another site that the purple flowers were nightshade. Lots of interesting lore attached to them including the thought that they were used as a warding against witchcraft.

[Omegamom]

Definitely not nightshade. There are wild sweet peas/vetch/loco weed, and something that looks very much like statice (someone got a clear screenshot) . Nightshade has a single flower habit, one flower at the head of a delicate stem with multiple flower stems branching from a thicker main stem; the sweet peas have a series of flower heads going down a single stem, and the statice-like things have a group of flower heads clustered at the top of a stem.

Wild peas:

Statice:

Deadly nightshade:

Nightshade is usually a shrub, and the leaves are totally wrong.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Omegamom

[Myrelle]

Ah well, not a botanist myself. The source was a landscaper, I think.  There sure are an awful lot of different kinds, though.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=nightshade+flowers+poisonous&rlz=1T4GGNI_enUS569US570&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CF8Q7AlqFQoTCL2IzsiqvcgCFUrQYwodvFkLIg&biw=1440&bih=750

[Partly]

Looking back at Darkness' conversation with Dean, she said:   "No matter where I am, who I am . . . We will always help each other."  Does that mean she can jump bodies?  Can she just assume whatever shape she wants?  

 

Maybe the Darkness that Dean encountered has nothing to do with little baby Armara, but just is who the Darkness is at the point.  Maybe she can be whoever she needs (or wants) to be.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Partly