S11.E01: Out Of The Darkness

[Tara Ariano]

Season 11 begins with Sam and Dean facing the Darkness that has been unleashed. Meanwhile, Castiel deals with the effects of Rowena's spell and recalls his brutal battle with Crowley.

[catrox14]

Okay It's technically not Wednesday but I don't care. It's premiere week. I'm scoffing at the laws of time.

 

Edited October 6, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

God, I don't know how I'll sleep tonight!

 

Can't wait!!

[ZennyKenny]

Part of me is extremely excited to start the new season! Part of me is dreading  seeing a certain woman in a bathtub during "The Road So Far" and having all of those repressed feelings of anger come bubbling to the surface!

[Omegamom]

Hah. I'll have to avoid being online starting tomorrow evening, until it shows up on The CW's app. Sigh.

[Demented Daisy]

(It's infectious over at the CW.  Even Oliver Queen was blathering on about The Darkness.)

 

Re-use of CCR's "Run Through the Jungle" does not fill me with hope.

 

A dead dog and a baby in peril in the first few minutes?  Gotta love the emotional manipulation.

 

Croatoan virus anyone?  Sam wants to wait, Dean wants to kill.  Sam gets drenched in the blood of an infected person.  Looks like he's not immune this time.

 

"The Darkness is a woman?"  Amen, Cas, amen.

 

"That's only half of the bumper sticker."  I beg your pardon, Sam.  I have that on a license plate holder, not a bumper sticker.  *humph*

 

Michael and Lucifer, huh?  The archangels were used to lock the Darkness away last time.  Logically, they would be needed again.  Along with a certain sandy haired, scruffy deity....

 

I am not going to freak out over the Mark on that baby.  I'll only say that they better have a DAMN.  GOOD.  STORY.

 

Pfft.  Who am I kidding?

[JennB]

I would miss Mark Sheppard, but otherwise I wouldn't object to Crowley jumping into different bodies each week.

I liked Jenna, so here's hoping the rabid fangirls don't call for her head.

[SueB]

First thoughts on one watch:

- Gee... looks like Dean is the CHOSEN ONE (sorry, I HAD to....I'll behave now).

- Crowley has an orgy and menopause.  Delightful!  I love that his priorities were 1) orgy, 2) murder orgy, and 3) go back and get his meatsuit.

- So ... the baby is Amara.  Makes that whole "connection" thing with Dean a little weird.

- Cas... that sounded an awful lot like "goodbye".  I know it's not but I don't like where your head is at sweetie.

- Sam and Dean got into some pretty meaty discussions there.  It was good.  I'm glad there's the focus on "saving people". 

- And Sam gets infected.... How's he gonna get cured?  

- I can't quite decide if Dean already sussed out Sam was lying or if he's distracted by his Darkness vision

 

Well, I'm off to watch again. More thoughts tomorrow.  I'm pretty excited for the season.

[Frost]

In a lot of ways, I enjoyed this episode much more than I thought I would.  I liked the odd jumping back and forth to Dean's encounter with The Darkness - or should we just start calling her Amara?  The similarity to the Croatoan virus is good and bad.  Good if it's a legitimate call back.  Bad if it's just a sign of writers not having new ideas. 

 

Dean being so insistent on saving the baby took on such a weird twist when The Darkness said they'd always help each other.  Was Dean just being his standard big damn hero?  Or did he recognize her at some level?

[Tippi Blevins]

I guess I'm thankful Dean didn't see the First Blade birthmark on the baby. At least he won't realize it's her when she inevitably shows up as a hot, adult woman later. Still, I'll know.

[Frost]

Supernatural got clever again!  The name Amara is Latin in origin and means 'everlasting'.

[Morrigan2575]

I wish I could get all worked up about Sam being infected but we all know he's not going to die so it's kind of pointless.

I thought this was a bit slow but I'm intrigued by the whole Darkness/Baby bit. I'm also shockingly interested in the Michael/Lucifer aspect.

[SueB]

Do you think the baby Amara is the luv child of Dean and the Darkness?

I mean, if you were gonna pick a BOND that would be in Dean's DNA... 'Parent/Child' with a Supernatural imperative would kinda fit.

[lmdreamer]

I thought it was a great start.I'm glad everyone survived to the preview.  So Crowley had an orgy huh?  I watched with my mom and she had a hard time getting passed that without cracking up.  She doesn't think Crowley killed those people she thinks the demons he called did.  So the boys are actually starting the conversations they need to have.......but they they are still keeping things from each other! ugh! I can't wait until the boys confront crowley next week.  After the king of hell's last meeting with sam should be interesting.

[catrox14]

Oh look they are using s1 title card. LOL wow. Jensen wasn't kidding when he kept saying it was a ctrl-alt-delete to s1. Almost literally.

 

I suspect time is wonky in that weird Darkness-scape that Dean and the Darkness were in.

 

So Amara is the baby. I fear that baby is Dean's. Don't you fucking give Dean a child this way. Don't you do it, show.

 

If that is Dean's spawn is it with the Darkness, (please no). Or is the woman he sees in the Darkness possibly a grown up version of the baby. And it's his child with whom? I just want to be so very very wrong about this.

 

I don't see how Dean being saved by a supposedly evil entity makes him the Chosen One like at all

 

Things I did appreciate :)

 1 )Michael and Lucifer were mentioned. I totally victory armed with that mention and that Hell is freaking out.

 2) Dean was immediately concerned about Cas and basically apologetic and wanted to find him. That made me happy

 3) Dean took responsibility for taking on the Mark

 

But sheesh. Talk about a re-do of 9,1 there.  Cas missing, Dean worried. Sam wanting to sacrifice himself.

 

Oh and Dean has a secret.

 

I hope upon re-watch I feel better about this episode. And I am still going to hold out hope that this is not what it seems.

[Morrigan2575]

Do you think the baby Amara is the luv child of Dean and the Darkness?

I mean, if you were gonna pick a BOND that would be in Dean's DNA... 'Parent/Child' with a Supernatural imperative would kinda fit.

I have to watch it again but it's possible. I think they were hinting that The Darkness was reborn or hiding in the baby. However, I could see the twist being the baby is oddly conceived from Darkness/Dean. They certainly gave the Sexy vibe in their final scene Edited October 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[2Old2BAFangirl]

So happy the boys are back!!

Not my favorite season premier but it was still good. The opening Supernatural looks kind of like S1, nothing dripping or breaking from it - just flashing.

I have to watch it again in the morning before I have any intelligent thoughts, I was too excited about it being back on to really watch closely. Yay!! Dean is back on my TV!!

[catrox14]

Whoa.....wait a minute .  Robert Singer isn't listed as an Executive Producer anymore....He's an Executive Consultant like Kripke. That's a pretty big deal.

 

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

 

Also, thinking more. I'm pulling back on my fear that the baby is Dean's spawn. I think the baby is the Darkness' vessel and Dean is talking to her aged up in the Darkness. 

 

Please let that be true.

Edited October 8, 2015 by catrox14

[ZennyKenny]

I found the season premiere to be intriguing. It sets up a lot of questions that I am interested in seeing answered. What do those angels want with Cas? Do they think he has special info that they need to torture out of him? Is the mention of Michael & Lucifer foreshadowing of their appearance in the near future?

 

That said, I honestly wasn't surprised by anything that happened, other than the Darkness "saving" Dean. But it was still entertaining.

 

As usual, some things bugged me, but I tried not let them hinder my enjoyment too much. Ex: "We know that she's (The Darkness) evil". Wait, what? We do? How? All we know is that God boxed her away, and this show doesn't exactly paint him in the most positive light.

 

Also, I'm sorry but this REALLY bugged me:

 

You're Sam Fucking Winchester. You see a murderous zombie banging repeatedly into a door. You hear a baby crying on the other side. You've already seen first-hand that a single bullet will take a zombie down. You decide to:

 

A) stand up and shoot the zombie in the head like the hunter you are, then investigate the baby.
B) cower behind a metal desk with your gun like a noob.

[catrox14]

 

A) stand up and shoot the zombie in the head like the hunter you are, then investigate the baby.

B) cower behind a metal desk with your gun like a noob.

 

It's this kind of thing that makes me question everything we are seeing here.

 

 

Okay, I keep waffling about Baby Amara being Dean's spawn.   Jensen talked in one of his m&g at a con about Dean being a parent to Sam. I thought that was kind of peculiar thing for him to discuss when he hasn't really talked about it before even back when he let an angel possess Sam. 

 

So I wonder if he was trying to drop some hints that actual fatherhood is going to be a thing again for Dean in s11.

Edited October 8, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

I loved it!

But did anybody else kind of freak at Dean saying "untenable"?

[catrox14]

I loved it!

But did anybody else kind of freak at Dean saying "untenable"?

 

It's about fucking time the show remembers that Dean is not stupid or inarticulate. He's read complex lore books for 20 years. I would imagine he's seen and used the word "untenable" at some point in his life. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

It's about fucking time the show remembers that Dean is not stupid or inarticulate. He's read complex lore books for 20 years. I would imagine he's seen and used the world "untenable" at some point in his life. 

 

My bad. You have a good point there, and I love Dean! Not as much as Mick does, but I do love him!

 

It's this kind of thing that makes me question everything we are seeing here.

 

 

Okay, I keep waffling about Baby Amara being Dean's spawn.   Jensen talked in one of his m&g at a con about Dean being a parent to Sam. I thought that was kind of peculiar thing for him to discuss when he hasn't really talked about it before even back when he let an angel possess Sam. 

 

So I wonder if he was trying to drop some hints that actual fatherhood is going to be a thing again for Dean in s11.

 

Mick and I saw it the same way. Of course, there are a million ways to walk this back, but we're going with it for now.

[AwesomO4000]

I don't see how Dean being saved by a supposedly evil entity makes him the Chosen One like at all

 

To me the label is fitting, because in this show's verse, the one "connected" with the supernatural entity is generally called the "Chosen one." It doesn't matter if the entity is evil or not. That's what many said Sam was when he was associated with the Yellow Eyed Demon - who was obviously evil. And since the Darkness told Dean "she" and him had a connection, that, imo, makes Dean the "chosen one" for this plotline. Apparently the mark and it's plotline isn't gone as many predicted, and Dean's association and history with it was firmly re-established in this opening episode. Interesting that as Dean was having his important talk with the Darkness, Sam was all-too-familiarly knocked out. It'll probably be likely that since Dean feels connected to the Darkness and will be maybe "helping it" somehow - even if only accidentally - if the show follows pattern, it'll be likely that he'll be the one to get the lion's share of getting rid of it to "atone" later on. that's if the show follows pattern. Whether or not Sam also gets to atone for last season remains to be seen, but I wasn't as hopeful that Sam was being set up for redemption last season as some others were, so at this point I'll be happy if he just gets to contribute at all.

 

This looks to me like we're setting up a season 7 type redo, complete with Dean wanting to get "revenge" and Sam distracting him and/or trying to keep Dean from going over the edge with general "we need to save people" talk.

 

Also, I'm sorry but this REALLY bugged me:

 

You're Sam Fucking Winchester. You see a murderous zombie banging repeatedly into a door. You hear a baby crying on the other side. You've already seen first-hand that a single bullet will take a zombie down. You decide to:

 

A) stand up and shoot the zombie in the head like the hunter you are, then investigate the baby.

B) cower behind a metal desk with your gun like a noob.

 

I think Sam's supposed reasoning here was supposed to be explained by his later talk with Dean. Sam was watching to make sure the door held, but because he feels responsible for the Darkness, he didn't want to kill the person. He's hoping for a cure. Of course the person dropped dead, so that didn't help much, but I think that was supposed to be his reasoning at that point. Methinks Sam is grasping at straws and likely Carver might have him turn out to be wrong about the strategy somehow, but based on what he was saying later, I think that's where Carver thinks Sam's head was at. (See also below.) I'm not sure that I like it, but I have a feeling there is more to come in that vein.

 

It's this kind of thing that makes me question everything we are seeing here.

 

I can only hope. But thinking back on Carver's version of Sam so far, I'm wondering if this is what he thinks of Sam. I can't really recall Sam doing all that much heroics since Carver took over. He has killed a couple of werewolf flunkies, a demon nun, a kid djinn, and Calliope (with an assist), but those are really the only things I can recall off hand (unless I'm forgetting some things - I'll admit to not having watched these last few seasons all that much). Often Sam is the Samsel in distress while Dean or the person of the week - their grandfather, Jody, Donna, etc. - gets the kill. Compare that to Dean's hunter count of killing a kazillion monsters in purgatory, Abaddon, Abaddon's demons, all those bad guy rapists in about 15 seconds, serial killer thinman dude, the Stein clan, Cain, Death, vampires, werewolves, Hansel and Gretel witch, etc. Generally if there is an epic kill, it's been Dean's. So I'm starting to wonder if Carver thinks that Sam is just fairly wussy and/or incompetent when it comes to hunting now, and that Sam would rather take that "wait and see" attitude. As I said, I don't like it, but that seems to be the impression that I'm getting.

Edited October 8, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

 

My bad. You have a good point there, and I love Dean! Not as much as Mick does, but I do love him!

 

I wasn't yelling at you.  Sorry if it came out that way.  I was yelling at the show for degrading Dean's intellect to the point that even long time viewers are surprised when he shows his intellect. I hope it's not a one time thing.

 

Yeah, I'm not gonna be happy at all if they make that Dean's child.

 

I'd much prefer it if it's the vessel for the Darkness that was born of someone else and they are connected solely because he had the Mark which was automagical in nature and not because of Dean sexytimes.

[Mick Lady]

I'll have to think on this AwesomO4000, but you have some good insights. Carver's take on Sam is especially intriguing!

 

Whoa.....wait a minute .  Robert Singer isn't listed as an Executive Producer anymore....He's an Executive Consultant like Kripke. That's a pretty big deal.

 

 

This is interesting catrox. Let us know if you get anything further!

I wasn't yelling at you.  Sorry if it came out that way.  I was yelling at the show for degrading Dean's intellect to the point that even long time viewers are surprised when he shows his intellect. I hope it's not a one time thing.

 

Yeah, I'm not gonna be happy at all if they make that Dean's child.

 

I'd much prefer it if it's the vessel for the Darkness that was born of someone else and they are connected solely because he had the Mark which was automagical in nature and not because of Dean sexytimes.

 

Oh I know you weren't catrox. You just brought up something I should have considered. I hate selling Dean short!

 

I just can't get by those shoulders and chest!

Edited October 8, 2015 by Mick Lady

[catrox14]

Hmmm...you know upon rewatch I still feel like Sam and Dean are just off here.

 

I thought it was really weird that the "zombies" backed away from Sam so quickly. Almost like they respected him in some way.

 

Does he has some sway over this group? Is that why Jared asked about still having demon blood in him?

 

I also question why the Darkness didn't know who Dean was if she was so connected to him. That was some strange dialogue that was confusing. Or does she just know that she's connected to whomever had the Mark. 

 

OHHHH I just had a thought.  What if the Darkness saved Cain, too?  If she is connected to someone who has the Mark then shouldn't she be connected to Cain as well?

[7kstar]

Not sure what I think yet, still processing.  Things I don't trust...

Dean the Chosen One...ya right.

 

Secrets once again.  Sam lying about needing a save, again.

 

Dean secrets...how he's still connected to the mark forever, so it seems.

 

How we guessed so many things...not that hopeful that we are seeing something no one has thought about.

 

Not bad...not all good.  Dean pretty does help. 

I said it was time for season 7 and not the only one, but it sure looks like it could be setting the stage for season 7 rewrite.

 

Looks like a big tease but can they deliver...trying to keep an open mind.  Had some interesting moments, but it also dragged and I was fast-forwarding through the commercials.  Not the best opener but better than Season 3 opener for now, JMV.

Edited October 8, 2015 by 7kstar

[ahrtee]

I'm guessing Sam cowering behind the desk was his version of not wanting to kill the dangerous infected person, rather than being afraid.  

 

I'm also guessing the promised "reset back to season 1" is Dean wanting to kill everything and Sam wanting to save everything.  Which would be fine if it made sense.   But surely they didn't lose their minds altogether.  As in: 

1.  Yes, it's good to want to help people/find a cure.  But you, Sam, are not a doctor.  There are no doctors left alive in the hospital, and no one around who can help those people who are about to kill you and everyone else in their path.
2.  The infected people are about to self-destruct anyway, long before they can be cured, or probably even studied.  But even so, they would have to be contained long enough for someone to study them.
3.  Not shooting them isn't saving them.  Remember the Croatoan virus?  The Jefferson Starships?  Sometimes you have to kill the monsters who are trying to kill you right now and try to save the others later.  And Sam's line:  "there's always a cure.  You just have to want to find it" made me want to throw something at the TV.  Because of course modern medicine has no interest in curing all the normal everyday diseases and should spend their time working on brand-new supernatural ones.  

 

Having said that, there were some things that might lead to good storylines in the future, but I really wish they'd go back to good writing instead of just tossing out ideas and then never following up on them or making them actually make sense.  

 

 

 

[trxr4kids]

 

So I'm starting to wonder if Carver thinks that Sam is just fairly wussy and/or incompetent when it comes to hunting now, and that Sam would rather take that "wait and see' attitude.

The flipside of that is Carver seems enamored with making Dean a monster/natural born killer. I don't think he likes Sam or Dean. IMO he likes being show runner of a successful show because hey, paycheck.

Edited October 8, 2015 by trxr4kids

[Mick Lady]

Mick and I were thinking that the "Zombies" backing off had something to do with Sam still being Lucifer's "True Vessel". It was mentioned that Michael and Lucifer were aware of what was going on above, and disturbed by it.

[ZennyKenny]

AwesomO4000, that makes sense. I did like Sam's "saving EVERYONE" speech; that seemed much more Sam-like to me. Reminded me of his season 4 reasoning for drinking demon blood (the knife kills people, exorcising them saves most of them).

[Mick Lady]

Hi ZennyKenny! I should have said so earlier, but I've been distracted, but Welcome!

[catrox14]

Mick and I were thinking that the "Zombies" backing off had something to do with Sam still being Lucifer's "True Vessel". It was mentioned that Michael and Lucifer were aware of what was going on above, and disturbed by it.

 

Yeah that was my thought too when I thought more about it.  So if they can sense he's Lucifer's vessel....who would be able to sense Dean was Michael's Chosen....oh wait...nevermind....that was really Adam...(NEVER FORGET FOREVER STACK O BITTERCAKES)

[ZennyKenny]

Hi ZennyKenny! I should have said so earlier, but I've been distracted, but Welcome!

 

Thank you! ^__^

[AwesomO4000]

I thought it was really weird that the "zombies" backed away from Sam so quickly. Almost like they respected him in some way.

 

Does he has some sway over this group? Is that why Jared asked about still having demon blood in him?

 

Mick and I were thinking that the "Zombies" backing off had something to do with Sam still being Lucifer's "True Vessel". It was mentioned that Michael and Lucifer were aware of what was going on above, and disturbed by it.

 

I just thought they sensed that Sam was already infected, so it would be like killing one of their own. It would be cool if they sensed that Sam was Lucifer's vessel, but since Sam was already infected, I think they just thought "One of us. One of us." and let him continue on with his change.

[Mick Lady]

But "The Darkness" wouldn't give a flying F about Michael, would they? Where as Lucifer was....oh hell, the Mark imprisoned them originally so I don't know where the hell I'm going with this.

[ZennyKenny]

Mick and I were thinking that the "Zombies" backing off had something to do with Sam still being Lucifer's "True Vessel". It was mentioned that Michael and Lucifer were aware of what was going on above, and disturbed by it.

 

I thought it was just because they could sense that he was infected. Like how zombies in zombie movies tend to leave each other alone. I'd LIKE it if it was because of Sam being Lucifer's vessel, because it would add more depth to the impact of the Darkness. I'm already disapointed in the small scope of impact (everything's normal 40 miles out of town? Bleh!).

[AlliMo]

If Sam is apparently infected, it would make sense that the other infected would lose interest, since they don't seem to be attacking each other.

 

ETA: Apparently, great minds think alike!

Edited October 8, 2015 by AlliMo

[enaiowen]

I thought it was really weird that the "zombies" backed away from Sam so quickly. Almost like they respected him in some way.

I got the impression that they recognized him as one of them. The first woman attacked him and he got her blood in his mouth when he killed her. When the others broke in they went after him at first too. It wasn't until after the girl got close enough and sniffed him that they backed off. I just assumed she could smell the infection working in him and that's why they didn't kill him.

They seemed to be working as some sort of unit, going after those that hadn't been infected rather than each other.

ETA: What they said.

Edited October 8, 2015 by enaiowen

[catrox14]

 

If Sam is apparently infected, it would make sense that the other infected would lose interest, since they don't seem to be attacking each other.

 

I don't think they would REALLY infect Sam here especially if there is no cure unless he's like the cure himself. That he would actually be immune to it.  But there was something IMO in how they reacted to him that seemed like they were surprised.

 

I would think if they were like the Walkers in the Walking Dead they wouldn't have any actual reaction.  They would just be like, "no food, move on".  But there was a definite change in their expressions that seemed more "sentient' than just reacting if that makes any sense. 

 

Of course if my WAG from the spoiler thread is at all feasible, none of what we see here is actually anything really happening in the way we are seeing it.

Edited October 8, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

I just thought they sensed that Sam was already infected, so it would be like killing one of their own. It would be cool if they sensed that Sam was Lucifer's vessel, but since Sam was already infected, I think they just thought "One of us. One of us." and let him continue on with his change.

 

This is how it is with "The Walking Dead" (which I gave up on, but Mick loves), but I can't see Sam changing. At least, I hope not!

[Ferniesfreckles]

Hey! Wasn't that young kid with the rifle in the Cas scene "I am Todd!! Hear me roar" ??

The little kid from "Wishful Thinking"?

[Mick Lady]

Of course if my WAG from the spoiler thread is at all feasible, none of what we see here is actually anything really happening in the way we are seeing it.

 

 Like I don't have enough to think about...

[AwesomO4000]

Hee yes, AlliMo. This was my theory, too.

 

And good point, enaiowen, the first "zombie" did attack Sam quite viciously, so she didn't sense anything back-away-worthy about him at that point. After he was infected was when they left him alone.

 

This is how it is with "The Walking Dead" (which I gave up on, but Mick loves), but I can't see Sam changing. At least, I hope not!

 

That was also how it was with the Croatoan virus, too. And also what enaiowen said here also applied to the Croatoan virus...
 

They seemed to be working as some sort of unit, going after those that hadn't been infected rather than each other.

 

But don't worry, Mick Lady, we know Sam has about 3 or 4 hours before he gets really bad, so maybe he'll think of something... unfortunately Castiel is out as an option however.

 

And interesting that Sam is not immune to this virus - that we know  of yet... unless it somehow has a different affect on him and this is how he

starts getting the "'visions" which in my Wild Ass Guess with be from Lucifer.

Edited October 8, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

Wait a minute. Dean is connected to Lucifer now because of the Mark, so maybe Sam is actually connected to Michael....

[Mick Lady]

Oh hell, I'm going to bed.

 

Thanks AwesomO4000, for trying to make me feel better! catrox won't stand for it though!

 

What I need is a dose of SueB, our site optimist!

[AwesomO4000]

Wait a minute. Dean is connected to Lucifer now because of the Mark, so maybe Sam is actually connected to Michael....

 

Oh that's right. Sam's connection to Lucifer isn't as great now since Dean is also connected to Lucifer, but I can't see Michael having anything to do with Sam unless something we don't know about happened in that cage, because Michael didn't think too highly of Sam to begin with, and Sam dragging him into the cage likely didn't improve that opinion... Unless something happened in the cage, I can't see Sam having a connection with Michael...

 

More likely if Death lied or was mistaken and Adam is actually in heaven - which canonically he could/should be - maybe they'll bring him back... or Michael will speak to Sam through Adam? That's the only thing I can think of that might make sense.

[catrox14]

 

t. Sam's connection to Lucifer isn't as great now since Dean is also connected to Lucifer,

 

You know...now that I think more about it Dean shouldn't even have a connection to Lucifer anymore since he no longer has the Mark.  Duh! LOL at me. So nevermind about that theory. 

[ZennyKenny]

Oh yeah,  Iforgot about another part. Maybe someone can explain it to me, cos I don't get it.

 

Castiel stabbed Crowley just as Crowley was leaving his body in order to avoid death. They made a point on repeating the act of Cas stabbing Crowley. So Crowley finds a new body. Fine. But then at the end of the episode, Crowley re-possesses his body just like nothing happened. How? He had to leave it to avoid being killed. It's not like the body wasn't still fatally stabbed. Did they do some kind of unstabby magic or something?