Season 6 Speculation WITH Spoilers (UK)

[onthebrink03]

foreverevolving and onthebrink,

I sent you a PM.

Got it.  Thank you!

[Brn2bwild]

The pictures of episode 8 are out and I'm afraid it looks bad for the Brary ship.

 

Obviously Talbot comes back (and Mary doesn't look too thrilled), but there are also pictures of Mary in a dress that would be appropriate for a second wedding and there's one picture that looks as if Isobel is congratulating her.

 

So it could be that Mary will break up with him and then he comes back in Episode 8 and they marry. It would sadly explain Lady Shackleton's presence, too. 

 

So maybe the Brary ship will sink in Episode 8. If that's the case I feel sad for the Mary fans. Talbot seems flat as a fish and I doubt Fellows will be able to change my mind about that in the last two episodes.

 

And also if that's the case: I hope the editor will turn out to be extremely lovely and will Tom knock of his feet in the upcoming episode!

Is there a link?

 

ETA: Is it possible if it's a second wedding that the second wedding could be for Isobel?

Edited October 31, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[RedWolf]

Is there a link?

 

ETA: Is it possible if it's a second wedding that the second wedding could be for Isobel?

I sent you a PM.

[Hecate7]

Of course the irony here is that Mary should feel more betrayed by her own intellect than by her family. Almost everybody was able to figure out the truth about Marigold without Edith having to tell them - except Rosamund and Cora. The former was Edith's only confidante (because she had caught Edith on her walk of shame IIRC) and Cora was told by Mrs Drewe. Violet simply demanded the truth because she was sharp enough to see through Rosamund and Edith's attempts to lie. Tom, Anna, Mrs Hughes pieced the truth together from things they observed - even his lordship, normally not the sharpest tool in the shed, managed to come to the right conclusion. That should burn someone convinced of her sharp mind much more than any intrigue to keep her in the dark.

 

 

Oh, she was smart enough to have figured it out. She simply lacked any sort of curiosity about it. Had she had the least bit of interest in Edith on any level, she'd have given it some thought, and from there probably puzzled it out, the way she does with most secrets people try to keep from her. Her indifference to her sister is pathological.

[photo fox]

Can someone please just post a link to whatever y'all are talking about so that everyone can participate? I'm not understanding the need for all the cloak and dagger. Thanks.

[Andorra]

I'm reluctant to do so, because the site explicitly asks for not posting any links that lead back to them. They got in trouble last year with TPTB from Downton. They have promotional pictures from several shows and usually they even ask for posting links, but Downton is the big exception. I'm happy to send everyone who asks a PM. 

 

 

So after a good night's sleep I tend to think "red herring" about the pictures. They can't just wrap up Mary's story completely in Episode 8. It's impossible!

And then all those pictures of Mary looking so unhappy. She doesn't look thrilled with Talbot at all. And no one in the "wedding dress" pictures looks happy either!

 

It just can't be.

 

But one thing is great: I haven't been as curious as I am now about Downton for years. I'm really looking forward to Sunday and the "poignant scene between Branson and Mary" that Allen talked about. The one "people won't forget". What will it be????

Edited October 31, 2015 by Andorra

[ZoloftBlob]

Yeah, went thru something similar in the battlestar galactica fandom. Someone working in production decided to post photos "only if no one spread it around" and then a) wonders why everyone was spreading the pictures around and b) why they were getting in trouble.

 

But the answer was never "maybe you shouldn't have been leaking photos".

[saki]

If it was simply a dress fitting, then Mary's hair wouldn't be done. And surely a bridesmaid wouldn't be wearing a gown in a bridal colour. All in all, it sure looks like Mary's second wedding day!

 

 

In the UK, it's not uncommon for bridesmaids to wear white for formal weddings - see, for instance, Pippa Middleton at William & Kate's wedding.

 

I don't necessarily think Edith would have Mary as a bridesmaid, though - not just because they don't get on but also because I think a widowed bridesmaid might be seen as bad luck.

 

It doesn't look nice enough to be Mary's wedding dress though - it makes her look a bit frumpy.

[hafo]

Mary could be a bridesmaid for Isobel, as her daughter-in-law. I think we can expect that wedding.

Edited October 31, 2015 by hafo

[saki]

Mary could be a bridesmaid for Isobel, as her daughter-in-law. I think we can expect that wedding.

 

That would definitely make more sense.

[Andorra]

There will be a wedding. I hope it is Isobel's. But if it IS Isobel's, the dress can't be a Bridemaid's dress, because in the picture with Isobel Mary wears a purple coat and a purple hat. And the hat on her dressing table is white.

[photo fox]

Thanks for the background on the picture site, Andorra!

I appreciate everyone's attempts to respect the wishes of that site. It's a bit frustrating, but it's their call. Since their request is against having their site named publicly, not the actual sharing of photos, I went ahead and loaded a dozen choice shots from each of the next two episodes into Imgur folders.

Episode Seven
Episode Eight

If you want to see the full group, please PM Andorra, who has graciously offered above to provide the link to anyone who wants it.

[Avaleigh]

I agree with Andorra that I haven't been this excited to see an episode of Downton in a long time. I feel like anything could happen. 

 

I agree about the white dress looking a bit frumpy. 

[Saje]

Hmm. Where's Violet during all this? And who's that younger girl in two of the photos? And what's up with Mrs. Patmore? I must say that shot of Mary in red next to the green car is pretty fabulous. And doesn't Edith look lovely?

[Eolivet]

Thanks to these links, I think it's all but certain it's Mary's wedding and I, for one, am shocked. George in the graveyard, plus Isobel with Mary also seals it for me. Fellowes will have them visit Matthew's grave, Isobel will give her blessing and Mary will move on.

 

Maybe it's looking at old gifsets these past few days (the one where she tells Gillingham that Matthew filled her head and she didn't want to be without him yet), but for Mary, maybe it wasn't the question of finding the right guy, but it being the right time. She wasn't ready in season 4 with Gillingham, and then after spending time with Gillingham in season 5, she didn't like him and she still wasn't ready (I don't think Blake was ever in serious contention, so I don't include him). But she met Henry and he made her feel something, and once she admitted that to herself, she realized that she was ready. It's her season 4 CS confession to Gillingham coming true: "There will be a new life for me again."

 

In some ways, Henry's trajectory is the closest to Matthew's, and it's a question of Mary being able to admit that even though there are things she doesn't like, she does have feelings for someone. Maybe it's just that simple.

 

With Fellowes, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, since he really doesn't do "shocking" anymore (Robert's exorcist moment aside). I can't imagine that the CS is going to be about Edith, but I do think that the Marigold reveal will end up being about Mary. In some ways, Mary/Edith is the last great rivalry of the show (since Violet and Isobel became besties last year) and I think the show can't close without giving that feud some closure. It will irritate everyone who hates Mary, but I wonder if in this case, Mary will end up saving Edith's relationship. Mary will make this wedding go off, and the rift that exists between the sisters will be at least temporarily healed. I think others have said this, and I agree with their speculation.

 

I think it's interesting if it does happen (and there's certainly no guarantee it does) but that Fellowes sees the great, unsolved relationship of Mary's life not as her next husband, but with her sister. It's a nod to the family as central aspect of the show that I've always adored, and if it does happen that way, that's a happy a personal ending as I could wish for Mary.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Eolivet

[JustSaying16016]

In regard to Mary and Edith, I do wonder if it causes Mary to reflect as to why Marigold's origin was kept from her. If she winds up helping Edith in some way as a result, great. While I like both, I do root for Edith even though I do not think she will have a completely happy end. While both sisters are equally at fault, I always thought if Mary offered an olive branch, Edith would accept it.

As for her relationship with Henry, it has fallen way short IMO. I had high hopes for Mary and Henry and thought Edith and Bertie's would be uninteresting. To me, the opposite has happened. For whatever reason, the development of Henry has been stagnant and Bertie continues to grow. Question is...did JF do this on purpose, is that bad of a writer or both...LOL?

[Eolivet]

I actually don't fault Fellowes for Henry's lack of development, because he's not all that important. The time they could've spent developing him is time they spent on their regular cast (except he could receive all of Spratt and Denker's camera time, that would be fine). I think this was Fellowes realizing the audience wasn't interested in the suitors, and this was him granting their wish. Henry has been seen sparingly, the focus has instead been on the family and the downstairs, and I think it really hasn't been The Mary Show that it was in the last two seasons.

 

Henry is also different from, say, Matthew because he's not really "regular cast." Matthew had interactions with other cast members in the family, as his role wasn't just "Mary's love interest." Henry's story is about Mary, because to me, it's really the story of how Mary finds love again. Henry is the Bond girl or the hero's beautiful girlfriend. He's there to stand there, look pretty and act as a vessel for the hero's character development. So, he's earned his paycheck in my eyes.

 

But Fellowes really is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Gillingham had many attempts to develop his relationship with Mary and the audience went "Eww, he's creepy! Stop showing him so much." Henry gets next to no time spent on his relationship with Mary and the audience says "Hey, where's the development? We know nothing about him!"

[ZoloftBlob]

Gillingham had many attempts to develop his relationship with Mary and the audience went "Eww, he's creepy! Stop showing him so much." Henry gets next to no time spent on his relationship with Mary and the audience says "Hey, where's the development? We know nothing about him!"

 

But that's part of JF's inability to write the relationship. Gillingham came off creepy because JF wrote him creepy. I mean, he was pretty much declaring himself Mr. Mary Crawley almost from his introduction. He dumped a woman he was already engaged to, Mabel Lane Fox, just so he could participate in the chase for Mary's Magical Vagina and as soon as he had sex with her, he was planning the wedding. He planned to fire his valet on her say so... He was hardly the most charming character ever written. (Although I will be honest, I was pulling for Blake) The actor wasn't terrible at all and even though there wasn't much chemistry between him and Dockery, the audience would have gone along with it if Gillingham had seemed more romantic and less of a creepy, horny stalker. If the audience didn't buy into the storyline, I'm not sure I agree it's because the audience was too dumb/impatient/critical to see the brilliance of JF's writing.

 

And Henry? I don't know why they cast Matthew Goode because you're absolutely right, Henry is a placeholder of a character. Mary could be seeing *anyone*, she could be marrying anyone because that's how little JF cares about the second husband. And if JF doesn't care enough to be bothered to write something other than a placeholder, then he's not going to get praise from me for doing a good job. If he doesn't care about the storyline, then why should we?

[SusanSunflower]

IMHO, if there had been any (sustained) chemistry between Mary and Gillingham or Blake everyone would have jumped on that 'ship ... the question as I recall was if that lack of chemistry was deliberate -- to keep us guessing and/or to keep the rivalry in "contention"  -- Gillingham was an even more perfect "Top of the Wedding Cake" looking suitor -- Love Goode but he looks tiny and delicate next to Tom and Robert. I was rooting for Blake since he (at least) had character and humor -- alas, after the initial spark over pigs, nothing. Agree with others, he became neutered (if not gay) best-friend and then off to Poland .... Gillingham's creepiness was such that many suspected Ulterior Motives -- that apparently never existed ... bad writing -- in contrast, with Carlyle we KNEW what he wanted. 

Dockery's "chemistry" with Matthew was largely seen in her interaction with Stevens -- humor, eyes alight -- not written into the story, acted -- again mostly by Stevens, Dockery's "chemistry" reactive. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Eolivet]

But when viewers have impossibly high standards for Mary's suitors, Fellowes was in a lose/lose proposition. He wanted to move on quickly -- the audience didn't. I think Mary could've had Prince Harry himself as her suitor, and the viewers would've nitpicked him to death. I think the suitors were drawn badly, but I also think the audience was determined to hate every last one of them.

 

The actor wasn't terrible at all and even though there wasn't much chemistry between him and Dockery, the audience would have gone along with it if Gillingham had seemed more romantic and less of a creepy, horny stalker. If the audience didn't buy into the storyline, I'm not sure I agree it's because the audience was too dumb/impatient/critical to see the brilliance of JF's writing.

 

I could see where Fellowes wanted to go with Gillingham, but I think part of it is the performance didn't translate and the other part was the audience was absolutely bound and determined to hate Matthew's Replacement. I don't think he was written brilliantly, but I also think he was presented to a hostile audience -- where every last one of his flaws would be picked apart and exposed in greater detail. Maybe the show's fault was listening to the audience, because I think if they'd rushed ahead with Mary marrying Gillingham as Fellowes wanted, the audience would've gotten over it and moved on to the next thing. Joss Whedon said don't write what they want, write what they need. The show made the mistake of catering to the former.

 

So, I don't think it's as simple as "Fellowes was too terrible a writer to make any of Mary's suitors appealing" because it wasn't exactly as if the audience was going "Oh, I wish Mary would find love again. She's so young and she deserves it. I wish she'd just find a nice man to settle down with" (i.e. openly wanting a suitor) and Fellowes just completely dropped the ball. Instead, Fellowes introduced a new suitor to an audience who didn't want a new suitor. So of course the reaction was going to be "This new suitor sucks! He's not Matthew! No suitor will ever be Matthew! Why are you trying to replace Matthew? Mary should stay single forever!" no matter if it was creepy Gillingham or Prince Harry.

 

To me, this is abundantly clear with Henry Talbot -- who isn't creepy, isn't a stalker, is pretty good-looking, and still he's not good enough because of X, Y, and Z. I find it so amusing because I can see Fellowes going "OK, I give up! Here's a good-looking guy who isn't creepy and I won't shove him down your throat" but it doesn't seem to matter. When the reaction is equally negative to Gillingham, Blake and Talbot over the course of three seasons, I begin to think the problem is less with the writer and more with the audience. No suitor will ever be good enough, except Matthew, and Matthew is not coming back. I have no idea what the writer is supposed to do, save for the nebulous "Write better" and "Cast better." So, I can see why Fellowes just picked the best-looking guy he could find. Faced with the same impossible proposition, I'd probably have done the same thing.

[sark1624]

IMO the problem was that the "parade" of suitors started too son, if the first "suitor" could have come on episode 4.5 and something slowly; but they rushed to put a Matthew replacemt with the intention that the audience could forget Dan Stevens. 

 

Also, why a parade of suitors? 3 men chasing Mary in the end of season 4 was ridicolous; maybe 1 o 2 max in that season maybe might have served to the plot, more stupid if we consider that men shortage after the war was a serious issue. IMO in the middle of the season Mary knows someone through working for the estate, but the the fact that the party to cheer her up knows her first one was indicative of the writer to rush things but in the end dindt work.

[ZoloftBlob]

I could see where Fellowes wanted to go with Gillingham, but I think part of it is the performance didn't translate and the other part was the audience was absolutely bound and determined to hate Matthew's Replacement.

 

Made worse that Fellowes never acknowledged why that was or made much effort to bring the audience along for the new ride. At the end of the day, Fellowes chose "car wreck on Christmas day" - that's a writing choice. And frankly, if he wanted Gillingham as end game - and I think he did, then Gillingham shouldn't have been Mary's first new fella after Matthew and that's also a writing choice.  I think a lot of the audience was pretty open to a new suitor - look at all the Brary people and the people shipping Mary with Evelyn. Heck, I had high hopes for Henry... and I assure you that making Henry a race car driver probably wasn't JF pandering to the audience and just giving them what they want.

 

The audience can be wrong - I mean, Taylor Hicks won American Idol - but honestly there were some problems in the writing. Like Sark says, they rushed it out of the gate, they poured men at Mary and the audience didn't like it. To be fair, the audience isn't required to like it, and the audience isn't necessarily wrong. I personally thought Gillingham was pushing way too hard - its been a while but he was declaring his love and wish to marry pretty damn fast.

 

And again - whats the point of having the storyline with Henry at all if JF doesn't want to bother. "Here's a cute guy, I don't fucking care any more" isn't great writing in my opinion.

[SusanSunflower]

If Tony Gillingham had made Mary happy -- I think he could have won over the audience and he would have had the rest of the season and series to do so ... I'm more inclined to think that Fellowes' decision was based on the lack of on-screen chemistry coupled with some dithering (not knowing how many more seasons he had to work with).  

Except for the pig-mud-fight with Blake ... were there any seriously fun "I get a kick out of you!" moments between Mary and either of them. I don't remember any. Both men were jettisoned as happy-ending romantic partners in or around episode 2 season 5  (Blake conceded to Tony, Tony and Mary disastrously went to Liverpool) ... Both characters then lingered and lingered pretty much for the rest of the season (making me wonder if they had been contracted for the season, used rather than break a contract). Very odd choice to make with two character that hadn't won with the audience ... 

eta: I've wondered if Fellowes' compulsion to make Upstairs for the most part models of comportment hasn't interfered with his plot development .... much more realistic for a young widow is to see-saw emotionally between the joy of remembering being young and the reminders that brings of before the tragedy ... I found Fellowes' portrait of Mary's "overwhelming" grief disturbing as well ... Her visible grief a matter of appearing near-catatonic which the rest of the family (Cora? Isobel? Violet?) accept as normal-enough

Edited November 1, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[MissLucas]

I think part of the problem was simply the odd choice to cast two rather similar looking actors. I struggled to keep them apart and the writing didn't help either. Ultimately I think Blake had more chemistery with Mary but it still wasn't enough to turn him into endgame. They felt like place-holders and I think that's exactly what they were.

[SusanSunflower]

See, I never had any trouble telling them apart ... I just didn't ... all that B.S. about Blake's secret fortune and title (or whatever)  was just massive red-herring creation  ... as was his expertise on estate-related things, hydrology was it? anyway, it made him PERFECT ... versus pretty boy Gillingham -- who had personal experience wrt not losing your birth right -- but who was trying toooo hard .

I think Blake may have been doomed by Gillingham's height  and audience expectations of their prince charmings .... I doubt Cullen was doomed by his occasional resemblance to Sacha Baron Cohen but ... who knows?  I suspect it was his character's lack of drive ... 

http://www.vogue.com/slideshow/754953/the-men-of-downton-abbey-photos/#1

 

Interesting short interview with Ovendon about the part http://dujour.com/culture/downton-abbey-julian-ovenden-not-just-a-soap-opera/ 

Edited November 2, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

See, I never had any trouble telling them apart ... I just didn't ... all that B.S. about Blake's secret fortune and title (or whatever)  was just massive red-herring creation

 

And this is an example of lazy writing on JF's part.

 

Matthew is set to inherit Downton because all of Robert's other potential heirs die.

 

Matthew inherits Reggie Swire's massive pile of loot because all the other heirs are dead.

 

Charles Blake is a guy who was never meant to have an estate or a title until yup... all the other heirs die.

 

Oh hey there Bertie, Mr. "I'm the estate manager because I'm so far down the line of inheritance" - wait what.? All the other heirs died? How shocking. How shocking and original.

 

*my righteous anger is better spelled correctly ;)

Edited November 2, 2015 by ZoloftBlob

[kpw801]

Is is possible the funeral could be for Tom? Maybe Mary's dark place comes when he leaves his daughter to Edith rather than her (somehow I couldn't see him leaving her to Robert/Cora...).

I think the funeral will be for Violet.  The show began with the sinking of the Titanic.  Maybe her cruise ship will meet misfortune.

[MissLucas]

The SS Paris was an actual ship and suffered no major mishaps in 1925. Of course the dowager could topple off deck but I doubt it.

[foreverevolving]

The SS Paris was an actual ship and suffered no major mishaps in 1925. Of course the dowager could topple off deck but I doubt it.

Or just die of old age in her sleep.

But we all hope she won't!

[CofCinci]

She's not coming back from France alive, is she? It's so Lady Violet to not want her family members by her bedside as she passes.

[Hecate7]

IMO the problem was that the "parade" of suitors started too son, if the first "suitor" could have come on episode 4.5 and something slowly; but they rushed to put a Matthew replacemt with the intention that the audience could forget Dan Stevens. 

 

Also, why a parade of suitors? 3 men chasing Mary in the end of season 4 was ridicolous; maybe 1 o 2 max in that season maybe might have served to the plot, more stupid if we consider that men shortage after the war was a serious issue. IMO in the middle of the season Mary knows someone through working for the estate, but the the fact that the party to cheer her up knows her first one was indicative of the writer to rush things but in the end dindt work.

 

 

I liked the pig guy. I think he should have been the one.

[Andorra]

Violet is in some promo pictures, so don't worry. She will be back in Episode 8.

 

I hate it, but I can't give up hope for Tom and Mary ending up together. After this episode I was sure I would know, but I still can't say.

 

There's Violet telling Isobel: "I've written to Tom. He is the most sensible of them."  and her opinion about Henry was: "Mary needs more than a handsome face and a hand at a gear stick."

 

I really can't get into Henry/Mary. I didn't buy Henry's whining over his friend, as if he had never in his life thought about the risks of racing? There were drivers dying at those car races on a regular basis back then! This whole big love affair with Mary seems so unbelievable and sudden and built on nothing. We only know it exists, because Tom tells us every single episode!

 

And does JF really care zero about Tom Branson? He knows how popular he is and what a big fan base he has. Does he really just uses him to push this boring Mary/Talbot relationship and that's ALL he gets??

 

I've decided I will only leave the Brary ship now if Mary gets married to Talbot next episode. Maybe then I'll believe that such a bad ending is really possible, LOL!

[Brn2bwild]

Violet is in some promo pictures, so don't worry. She will be back in Episode 8.

 

I hate it, but I can't give up hope for Tom and Mary ending up together. After this episode I was sure I would know, but I still can't say.

 

There's Violet telling Isobel: "I've written to Tom. He is the most sensible of them."  and her opinion about Henry was: "Mary needs more than a handsome face and a hand at a gear stick."

 

I really can't get into Henry/Mary. I didn't buy Henry's whining over his friend, as if he had never in his life thought about the risks of racing? There were drivers dying at those car races on a regular basis back then! This whole big love affair with Mary seems so unbelievable and sudden and built on nothing. We only know it exists, because Tom tells us every single episode!

 

 

Didn't Michelle Dockery say that Mary ends up in a surprising place?  What would be surprising about her marrying Talbot?  At this point, it's what most viewers would expect.

[Ide]

Oh, she was smart enough to have figured it out. She simply lacked any sort of curiosity about it. Had she had the least bit of interest in Edith on any level, she'd have given it some thought, and from there probably puzzled it out, the way she does with most secrets people try to keep from her. Her indifference to her sister is pathological.

 

Exactly, she doesn't care about Edith. Only the fact that there is a secret that she doesn't know about got her interested and the fact that she probably realised by now that she is the only one who doesn't know

 

But one thing is great: I haven't been as curious as I am now about Downton for years. I'm really looking forward to Sunday and the "poignant scene between Branson and Mary" that Allen talked about. The one "people won't forget". What will it be????

 

Interesting. I guess he won't make a declaration of love?! ;)

 

I'd like a PM please :) Whatever it contains ;)

 

Didn't Michelle Dockery say that Mary ends up in a surprising place?  What would be surprising about her marrying Talbot?  At this point, it's what most viewers would expect.

 

Maybe that she'll live a simpler life with Talbot? I'l pray for the next week that Talbot won't be endgame for her.

 

I still wonder about her U-turn!

[MissLucas]

The most surprising place for Lady Mary to be in would be on good terms with her sister! Kidding aside I think Sir Julian is trying to mellow her for exactly that to happen and all the talk about a big confrontation is a smoke-screen.

 

She looked genuinely surprised/hurt in last episode when Edith snapped back at her for what was meant as a sweet remark about Bertie's interest in Edith. I rewatched the scene and Dockery said the line without Lady Mary's usual snark. And there's also a look of utter bewilderment on her face in the promo when Edith launches the b***-grenade. I don't think she's going to retaliate at this point (she may have spilled the beans on Marigold beforehand though I'm having more and more doubts about that) - all of this looks increasingly like we're in for a big moment of catharsis for Lady Mary.

 

(And that big catharsis might lead to *cough* other things. Yep, I have by no means given up hope for ship Brary to set sails. Quite the contrary - Tom's frantic matchmaking might be a desperate attempt to fight his feelings for Mary. )

[Nellie]

A tad bit late in the game for me to join in... However, looking through this thread, it appears that I'm not the only one baffled at how JF plans to wrap it all up with only one episode and a Christmas special left.

Poor Thomas. I know he has been an absolute tool, but I do feel sorry for him right now.

Mrs. Hughes appears to have her hands full. What a way to spend your Golden Years... Catering to the nit picky, cantankerous, ass hat that is Mr. Carson.

I'm not sure who will kick the bucket. It seems, Lady Violet or Lord Grantham are the two most likely candidates.

When Tom came back from America without a wife on his arm, I thought that was interesting. Then he quite literally wiggles his way into every aspect of Mary's love life. Every conversation about Mary's romantic prospects are between Mary and Tom. Almost every moment she has spent with Henry has also included Tom. It is bizarre how wrapped up they are in each other's lives. They have been joined at the hip the entire series. When Tom makes an argument for why Mary should be with Henry, I don't know if he is talking about Henry or himself. It's almost interchangeable. And why is he pulling so hard for Henry? Certainly, it couldn't be because of their mutual love of cars. I agree with Miss Lucas, maybe the reason Tom is pushing Mary so hard is because he is fighting his feelings for her. At this point in the game, I feel as though that the only logical ending at this point is for Tom and Mary to end up together. In my opinion, no other alternative makes sense right now. I cannot see Mary and Tom running the estate together (which I believe is what will happen), with Mary married to Henry, who has given up cars...to do what?? Or Tom living at and running the estate with Mary, with his new bride at his side?? How quaint?? Mary leaving downton to follow Henry about while he is racing cars is just not going to happen either. Tom could leave downton but then what was the purpose of his coming back and declaring downton was his home and the Crawley's were his family??

I honestly did not believe that JF would pair off Tom and Mary until this season. I'm still not even sure he will but that makes this season a complete mess, in my book. If he doesn't, then I would be at a absolute loss for what Tom's purpose has been this whole series. Also, they have put little to no effort into making a compelling argument for Mary and Henry. They have little chemistry, Mary doesn't appear to care for him like he cares for her and let's be honest... He's a tad boring.

I really don't know where they are going with this... Who knows, they may both end up alone.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Nellie

[Andorra]

I agree, that at this point only Tom/Mary makes sense from a logical POV. For me it won't be the end of the world if he ends up with the editor and Mary with Talbot, but I can't see the point in the whole series, except for maybe Julian Fellows being happy to fool us. Mary and Tom would be the conclusion of a long storyarc that has slowly built their relationship. It would be a satisfying and happy conclusion for two beloved characters and without "last minute thrown in characters for which we didn't have time to care". There has been so much foreshadowing, so many clues, so many scenes and yet we can't be sure. Which is actually a good thing, since it has me excited for the last episodes.

 

I also think of "Mad Men" and Peggy and Stan? I don't even watch the show but Julian Fellows has repeatedly said, that he is obsessed with it. As I understand it,there was a sudden change in the relationship between those two characters, who had always been best friends and who's actors always denied any possibility of a romantic relationship? So maybe Julian Fellows felt inspired by it!

 

If Julian Fellows is going to end it with Mary/Talbot and with Tom/editor, I will never understand what the hell Julian Fellows did intend to show us with season 4 and 5. They will clearly be fillers without a direction and without any sense in the storyline. But if he is going to bring Mary and Tom together, for me it will all make sense. The building of Tom's character and the understanding that Mary had to find about what really matters in her life. 

[Andorra]

There's a new trailer. With a very, very angry Tom? With whom could he possibly be so angry?? And Andy kicking in a door. Thomas?

http://my-mother-used-to-say.tumblr.com/post/132427421469/everyonelovesavalet-timminssidsrock-advert#note-container

 

Could Tom yell with Mary, because she told Bertie about Marigold?? 

Edited November 2, 2015 by Andorra

[MissLucas]

Ah, angry Tom is a good sign of things finally moving ahead. Not sure he's angry about Marigold, as I said I don't think Mary is going there. Maybe he's just angry because she sent Henry on his merry ways and he now has to deal with all his own repressed feels? He! Not too happy about the very last shot of Bertie walking away from Edith but I'm sure he'll come around.

[Andorra]

I can't see Tom yelling at Mary about Talbot. Really, if that is going to happen, I think he needs brain surgery!

 

I wonder if it is not Mary (because I can't see him getting that angry with her), but Thomas. Tom knows Barrow for years and what he has done over the years. Maybe he caught in on some intrigue and this fight will push Thomas over the edge?

[Kirsty]

Andy kicking the door in may be about Thomas. Like, Thomas tries to kill himself  but Andy and the other servants get to him on time?

 

I think Tom getting angry at Mary would be a good sign, but I can also see him lashing out at someone (Edith?) who hurts Mary.

 

I wonder what Mary is too "stupid and stuck up to see?"

 

- that Marigold is my daughter, which half the house figured out without being told.

 

- that everyone else's life is moving forward while you're stuck in the past.

 

- that Tom is in love with you???

 

That last one's wishful thinking. But I bet it would make Tom angry.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Kirsty

[MissLucas]

Tom is standing in front of what seems to be a map of the estate - so my money is still on Mary. Mary being yelled at somehow being the theme of this episode: Tom, Henry, Edith. I'm starting to feel sorry (not really).

[Nellie]

I wonder what Mary is too "stupid and stuck up to see?"

I'm not sure who Tom is upset with?

I'm sure Bertie will come around with Edith. Not worried about those two love birds.

I do worry though that Andy is kicking in the door to help Barrow somehow. It would be a sad ending for his character to attempt suicide.

[MissLucas]

I did some location hunting via screencaps. Tom is standing in his office (it's located somwhere behind the stables) and Andy is kicking in the door to the servant's bathroom. Both rooms are featured in 5.1.

[Kirsty]

Who would Tom be yelling at in his office? Have we even seen him in his office yet this season? He looks pretty upset. Maybe he's angry at Mary for spilling Edith's secret in front of Bertie. So she ruined her own relationship with Henry and then she ruined Edith's relationship with Bertie. I think that would make Tom pretty mad.

 

Servants' bathroom could also mean Anna having a problem with her preganancy, but my money's on Thomas.

 

I don't see how this fits with the pictures, though I'm coming round to the possibility that Mary's formal gown could be a matron of honour dress for Isobel's wedding to Merton.

 

But if it IS Isobel's, the dress can't be a Bridemaid's dress, because in the picture with Isobel Mary wears a purple coat and a purple hat. And the hat on her dressing table is white.

 

The picture in which Mary and Isobel look happy could be from the scene when Isobel tells Mary she's getting married and asks Mary if she would be her bridesmaid. It's not necessarily Isobel's wedding day. Maybe she asks her when they visit Matthew's grave or something.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Kirsty

[RedWolf]

Tom and Mary were both in the Estate agents office in episode four. 

 

I also think that Isobel and Lord Merton will get together next episode.

[sark1624]

http://however-whatever-whenever.tumblr.com/post/132439952273/whats-on-tv-7-13-november-2015

 

Yes, i think that Tom needs a brain surgery. So with that info we know that is Edith who tells Bertie about Marigold and he doesnt take that new info very well and they broke up. Also i guess that Mary are going to be married with Talbot at the end of the episode. 

[Nellie]

Why is Tom so damn invested in Mary and Henry's love life?? Weird! He has served no other purpose than to be Henry's cheerleader this series. Lame!

Bertie needs to pull his head out of his butt.

Oh boy! So, if Henry and Mary are married then either Henry will give up racing (something he loves dearly)and become Mary's poppet at Downton or Mary leaves Downton (something she loves dearly) to follow him around as he races cars?? I don't see how either of those options seem plausible.

I'm calling it... I don't think she Ends up with Henry. Either she's alone, there's a big time jump between episode 8 and CS and Napier come back and she marries him, (her supposed U-turn) or lastly, she marries Tom which isn't sounding likely. I still think Henry is the smoke screen.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Nellie

[RedWolf]

Tom

What are you doing? Did your dopple-ganger come back from America instead of the real you? From what the article says you really are acting like a desperate man on a sinking ship (pun intended). So far you are the only one who sees how perfect Talbot is for Mary (on the show and for a big part of the shippers on the fandom). You cheering even harder for Talbot is actually putting me off him even faster then if I shipped you with Mary. Why would Granny Violet help you get Mary with Talbot? A man who, until his friend died, I had no emotional connection with. All he talked about was cars and Mary. I hope Granny comes back from France to whack you over the head and tell you to man up and confess to Mary how you feel already. And if Granny doesn't whack you over the head I hope Mary does, because you are not acting like a friend or a brother who only wants the best for her. Maybe you should get into a fight with Mary, where after you both sulk and/or ignore each other, and then you will realize you can't live without her and get over yourself. 

[TyranAmiros]

Considering how they've built up Thomas' isolation and lack of self-worth, I'm guessing Andy kicking in the door is trying to get to him before Thomas manages to kill himself.

I'm guessing Mary actually doesn't tell Bertie anything, but gets blamed for doing so. We see Tom in the land office, and we're meant to think he's shouting at Mary, but it's possible the target is someone else, I guess. Maybe Violet ran into the Gay Cousin on the Riviera and slipped something to him, which made it into a letter back to Bertie.