The West Wing Season Three: Bad Moon Rising

[PeterPirate]

Amy Gardner is my favorite West Wing character. I am in a distinct minority on that one, especially when the vehemence of the anti-Amy crowd is factored in. Back in the day when they held character popularity contests, Amy was always the first one eliminated.  

 

Here is an article about the backstory to LemonLymon.com:

http://bitchkittie.blogspot.com/2006/02/long-back-story-of-aaron-sorkin-west.html

Edited October 23, 2015 by PeterPirate

[Guest]

I haven't even finished reading that blog post and THAT WAS ABOUT TWOP?  Rob Lowe posted on TWoP?  Why didn't I watch this show when it happened?  I could have talked to Rob Lowe and been involved in more active TWW forums?  

 

I am currently kicking my teenage self.

[Guest]

What is this West Wing Special Episode? Flashbacks and real people? Huh?

ETA- I ended up skipping most of it. If there is a plot that ends up moving forward in it, can you let me know so I go back? :)

[Guest]

Who is messing with my CJ? If anything happens to her, I will cut you, fictional bad guy!

[Guest]

Ok, the older gentleman who wrote the letter to FDR? That made me tear up. This show is awesome.

[Bastet]

Did you keep it in a format that it could be sent to an interested party?  I found the first page and was enjoying it, but I can't get other pages of any recaps to load.

 

Yes, but I can't find it.  If I do, I'll send you a PM.

[Guest]

CJ's bodyguard is kinda cute. They'd make a nice couple. Though I'm starting to miss Danny though. I liked their interactions, though they got repetitive. So this is good.

This terrorism plot line is making me very nervous.

[AriAu]

haven't even finished reading that blog post and THAT WAS ABOUT TWOP?  Rob Lowe posted on TWoP?  Why didn't I watch this show when it happened?  I could have talked to Rob Lowe and been involved in more active TWW forums?

 

2 things-first of all, I don't recall Rob Lowe on TWOP, but Sorkin's appearances were legendary.

2ndly, and most importantly, those TWOP boards were awesome, as were the games, lists and other random topics that wasted so, so, much of my time. The only recapers that were even close was someone on the Josh/Donna Yahoo boards.

These discussions took the series to a whole other level for me. People pointed out lots of technical approaches and artistic things that I never noticed and had always assumed were coincidental or accidents, but boy, those accidents just kept happening whenever Tommy Schlamme directed an episode!

The recaps were great, especially from Deborah, but she did sour quite a bit after Isaac and Ishmael because she took great offense to put it mildly, to Sorkin's handling of "the Muslim/Middle East" to quote the blog post linked above.

But even better than the recaps were the discussions in the episode threads-there would be 15+ pages of threads within 36 hours of an episode and they were almost never of the "wow, I really loved/hated the episode and didn't CJ's hair look great". They went deeeeeeep into the substance of the episodes as well as the technical merits. I miss TWOP so!

And, yes, I am pissed that there is no one to contact about fixing the problems with the website that won't let us get  past the first page....and there really is no one that cares.

[Guest]

SIMON!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!

Oh CJ. :(

Crying now. I hate this show. (I love this show.)

[Guest]

Wow. He ordered the assassination. I didn't think he would.

"Crime. Well, I don't know" is when I decided to kick your ass. Love it.

Ugh, I hate Amy. She's resigning? I have an idea. She can go work in Mandyville. Seriously. Are the tv gods punishing me for complaining about Josh and Donna by saddling him with Amy?

[Bastet]

"Crime. Well, I don't know" is when I decided to kick your ass. Love it.

 

No, no – it’s even better: “Crime.  Boy, I don’t know.”

 

I hate the Simon Donovan storyline – typical “woman is terrorized, but it will be explored no further than setting up a potential romance with her male protector” bullshit – but that line is still used in my regular life.  A friend and I will regularly trade, “[Complex situation to which some idiot politician has offered a non-solution].  Boy, I don’t know” emails.

[betsyboo]

SIMON!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!

Oh CJ. :(

Crying now. I hate this show. (I love this show.)

 

 

Wow. He ordered the assassination. I didn't think he would.

"Crime. Well, I don't know" is when I decided to kick your ass. Love it.

Ugh, I hate Amy. She's resigning? I have an idea. She can go work in Mandyville. Seriously. Are the tv gods punishing me for complaining about Josh and Donna by saddling him with Amy?

I've been waiting for these posts all day! I've been cringing with empathy thinking about you watching Mark Harmon in the bodega.

 

"Crime. Boy, I don't know." will go down in history as one of the greatest lines ever. Props to Mr. Streisand for nailing the delivery.

[Guest]

So did he think the wrong guy was the robber or were they working together? Or is it purposefully vague?

[AriAu]

CJ's bodyguard is kinda cute. They'd make a nice couple. Though I'm starting to miss Danny though. I liked their interactions, though they got repetitive. So this is good.

This terrorism plot line is making me very nervous.

 

I was a good boy in my earlier post, not tipping anything, but

 

I've been waiting for these posts all day! I've been cringing with empathy thinking about you watching Mark Harmon in the bodega.

 

Yup

[Guest]

The more I think about it, the less I am a fan of that whole plotline with CJ. It had it's nice moments, but I feel like it was resolved super quickly without really telling us anything.  Plus the whole protector/protectee relationship has been done, and they didn't really break any new ground.  And if it were to build to a new relationship, it might have been easier to overlook. But for him to die right then?  It was almost like they got to the end of the season and were like "Oops, got to resolve this plot."  Most of the plots in TWW I feel like are a slow burn to a natural conclusion at this point. I don't feel that way about this one.

[txhorns79]

It was almost like they got to the end of the season and were like "Oops, got to resolve this plot."  Most of the plots in TWW I feel like are a slow burn to a natural conclusion at this point. I don't feel that way about this one.

 

I felt like they had no idea what to do with CJ.  Allison Janney clearly has the chops to handle a good dramatic script, but for whatever reason, the best they could come up with is a Bodyguard knock off.  However, they also have to arrange it so the plot goes nowhere, because the writers were too worried about upsetting the status quo. 

[PeterPirate]

There have also been people (not including me), who said that they knew Agent Sunshine was going to die the first time he appeared onscreen.  In any case, Simon's murder led to "Crime, boy, I don't know", which is one the iconic lines of the series.  (And also the entire NCIS franchise.) 

 

The ending to Posse Comitatus is the high point of the show for me.  I love the shot of Jed and Leo just before Jed says "take him". I also love the final shot of Jed behind the curtain.  

 

I became a fan of this show when Amy threw Josh's cell phone into the stew.  

[txhorns79]

In any case, Simon's murder led to "Crime, boy, I don't know", which is one the iconic lines of the series.

 

It was?  I honestly didn't like that scene.  It felt like a rather lame set up so you could have the President being outraged and giving a pious lecture.   

[BizBuzz]

I became a fan of this show when Amy threw Josh's cell phone into the stew.  

 

I loved it when Amy cut the cord.  ::giggle::

[PeterPirate]

It was?  I honestly didn't like that scene.  It felt like a rather lame set up so you could have the President being outraged and giving a pious lecture.   

 

The entire portrayal of Ritchie was controversial and disliked by a lot of fans. I think the "Crime" line is cited the most as an indicative of his characterization. 

[txhorns79]

The entire portrayal of Ritchie was controversial and disliked by a lot of fans. I think the "Crime" line is cited the most as an indicative of his characterization.

 

You might be right.  To me, it was just eye rolling.  I understand they weren't going to have Jeb lose. I'd just have liked it more if it didn't feel like Sorkin wanted to relitigate the 2000 election, and Ritchie was more of a three dimensional person.     

Edited October 29, 2015 by txhorns79

[SingleMaltBlonde]

"Crime, boy I don't know" is pretty close to a current candidates comments on mass shootings "stuff happens".

[ChicksDigScars]

First Time watcher on Season Three. 

 

Okay, it took me a minute to figure out WHY the season premier had NOTHING to do with the Season 2 cliffhanger. It did take me going to Wikipedia and confirming that Season Three started in the Fall of 2001, and that this was a throw in episode, filmed two weeks after September 11th.

 

Otherwise, I wanted to punch Josh in the mouth. Lecturing the kids for 15 straight minutes to start the episode? Oy. Too much Josh.  When you watch it out of context for the first time, and it is NOT a month after the 9/11 attacks, it's just ANNOYING. I now see why Rob Lowe left. He was promised the focal point and the writers slowly gave it to Bradley Whitford, to the point that Josh Lyman is the West Wing's version of Gabriella Dawson for me (Chicago Fire watchers know what I mean). When Donna asked him, "Do you just like to hear yourself talk?" I yelled "YES," at the TV.  Which is too bad, because I actually LIKE Bradley Whitford.

[AriAu]

When you watch it out of context for the first time, and it is NOT a month after the 9/11 attacks, it's just ANNOYING

 

It was jarring and annoying even a month after 9/11. However, I have not watched it again since then so I am not even 100% sure what I hated about it, other than remembering that I hated it. Life is too short to waste time going back to watch what I don't like.

And there were lots of reasons Rob Lowe left, including to be the star of that long running show The Lyons Den!

[ChicksDigScars]

I was told that in real time, there was an explanation at the start of that episode, explaining WHY the viewer wasn't seeing the continuation of the Season 2 cliffhanger. But, Netflix doesn't show it. You're just left with general what-the-fuckery until it clicks in your head. Oh, Season Three was Fall, 2001. 

[BW Manilowe]

I was told that in real time, there was an explanation at the start of that episode, explaining WHY the viewer wasn't seeing the continuation of the Season 2 cliffhanger. But, Netflix doesn't show it. You're just left with general what-the-fuckery until it clicks in your head. Oh, Season Three was Fall, 2001.

There is an explanation, by all the actors in the main titles that season (they each get a few lines; they don't speak in unison). It's at the beginning of the ep on the DVDs & was included in the ep whenever it aired on NBC or in local/cable network syndication afterwards.

[ParadoxLost]

It was jarring and annoying even a month after 9/11. However, I have not watched it again since then so I am not even 100% sure what I hated about it, other than remembering that I hated it. Life is too short to waste time going back to watch what I don't like.

And there were lots of reasons Rob Lowe left, including to be the star of that long running show The Lyons Den!

 

I found it really annoying in proximity to 9/11.  I did re-watch it finally and didn't hate it as much as I remembered.  I think it was because getting the whole cast into a room always ends up with a couple nice moments and the rest of the time I was only half listening.

[Guest]

I didn't like it. BizBuzz kindly had PMed me to warn me what it was/that it didn't flow with the series. 

[Eeksquire]

 

There is an explanation, by all the actors in the main titles that season (they each get a few lines; they don't speak in unison). It's at the beginning of the ep on the DVDs & was included in the ep whenever it aired on NBC or in local/cable network syndication afterwards.

I would love to know what that was... I think 9/11 was when I stopped watching TWW in real time (in hindsight).  Not because of 9/11 per se, but because I was in college and taking a lot of night courses at the time and pre-DVR, there was just no way to conveniently to record and watch later.

[Moose135]

Here's the original Isaac & Ishmael Intro, which does appear on the DVDs:

 

[BizBuzz]

Here's the original Isaac & Ishmael Intro, which does appear on the DVDs:

 

Thanks for finding and posting this.  I hadn't seen the intro in a long while.  Seeing that, it sure puts the episode in perspective.

[eyebleach]

I had forgotten about that too!  I rewatch almost exclusively on Netflix and that part isn't included.  

 

The line about Donna getting a boyfriend did make me giggle though :)

[Eeksquire]

Wow.  Thank you for posting that - I don't believe I ever saw that.  (And Leo talking about NY's finest and bravest brought me RIGHT BACK to that time.  Whew.)

[txhorns79]

The line about Donna getting a boyfriend did make me giggle though :)

 

That made me laugh too.  I think it's the placement after the previewing of all the serious plotlines upcoming on the show.  It just sounds so ridiculous in comparison.   

[jaytee1812]

Just watching War Crimes and Sam mansplaining to Donna what she was about to go through is probably the worst scene in this show.

Weirdly enough the episode immediately then switches to one of my favourites when the president and First Lady have an argument which includes quoting the bible, singing Sinatra and some sexual innuendo.

Also, why does everyone else think Donna lied about her diary? I always assumed it was so the full extent of Josh's PTSD wasn't revealed.

[BW Manilowe]

Just watching War Crimes and Sam mansplaining to Donna what she was about to go through is probably the worst scene in this show.

Weirdly enough the episode immediately then switches to one of my favourites when the president and First Lady have an argument which includes quoting the bible, singing Sinatra and some sexual innuendo.

Also, why does everyone else think Donna lied about her diary? I always assumed it was so the full extent of Josh's PTSD wasn't revealed.

Yeah. If I remember correctly, that's what I thought too--Donna had written about Josh's PTSD in her diary &, when the proverbial shit hit the fan about the MS, she didn't want "the other side" knowing about her diary & using it against Josh or the Bartlet Administration, lest it really weaken them politically (more than they may already have been weakened). Then Cliff saw it when he slept with Donna & he remembered it when he got to question her about the MS.

[SingleMaltBlonde]

Also, why does everyone else think Donna lied about her diary? I always assumed it was so the full extent of Josh's PTSD wasn't revealed.

 

I would not want a diary subpoenaed by the opposition party, perhaps why I have never kept one.

[BW Manilowe]

Just watching War Crimes and Sam mansplaining to Donna what she was about to go through is probably the worst scene in this show.

Weirdly enough the episode immediately then switches to one of my favourites when the president and First Lady have an argument which includes quoting the bible, singing Sinatra and some sexual innuendo.

Also, why does everyone else think Donna lied about her diary? I always assumed it was so the full extent of Josh's PTSD wasn't revealed.

I think most of why Donna lied about having a diary did have to do with her writing about Josh's PTSD (which, like the MS originally, nobody--especially not in political circles--knew about) in it, as I said previously. But I've also wondered if it also had to do with her writing in it about her then-hidden romantic feelings for Josh, too (like she can't tell him, because she thinks--or maybe he's said--it would be unprofessional, so she writes about it in her diary; she did write in it about her involvement with Cliff, after all--Josh held those pages back, to use if Cliff/the Republicans used stuff Donna wrote/may have written in it about the MS/Josh's PTSD against Jed, Josh, &/or the Administration.

[Guest]

I hated the whole diary subplot.  I thought it was a very strange question for Donna to be asked and awkward the way Cliff responded. It also just irritated me that the President put them in that position.

[Melancholy]

I hated the diary subplot. If you're going to write a story about Donna lying to protect Josh from Capitol Hill gossip about Josh's PTSD, but Josh was still livid at Donna, then write that. The way the ep plays, it looks like Donna's just a compulsive liar or childishly would commit perjury to protect her super-secret no boyz allowed diary. The emotional heart of the story was nowhere near the episode. I don't get it. I loved the rest of War Crimes. I love most of the MS disclosure stories.

 

Why was the A-plot such an emotionally barren stupid disaster while the Jed/Hoynes B-plot was sophisticated political gamemanship across multiple political and personal issues all in a bottle set of scenes, Toby's B-plot of the political leak and confronting confidentiality within a team was super-touching, Leo's C-plot about the human rights court debate that ended up becoming a disclosure of the atrocities Leo committed in Vietnam was haunting and uncomfortably dark in a great way, and CJ's D-plot had this wistful sad beauty that a principled reporter could do the standard Danny Concanonesque witty banter with CJ but find it all empty and unfufilling as a way to capture the world's truths because many of the political stories come down to gossip and there's a weird twist that CJ would love to dismiss reporters' different "gets" of the administration's behavior as "silly gossip that's not worth making the paper" as she spin-doctors but really, she kind of wants to believe that the reporters are really interested in the West Wing gossip and find it hard-news because to say otherwise, diminishes her role as the gate-keeper. Plus, the abolition of the penny as hilarious comedy.

 

....But the A-plot sucked and thus, the entire grade of the ep was sharply reduced no matter how good the other plots were or how cute Josh and Sam look in casual clothes or "You make me eat egg foo yong" as Jed's interpretation of Frank Sinatra. 

Edited December 22, 2015 by Melancholy

[Guest]

I hated the diary subplot. If you're going to write a story about Donna lying to protect Josh from Capitol Hill gossip about Josh's PTSD, but Josh was still livid at Donna, then write that. The way the ep plays, it looks like Donna's just a compulsive liar or childishly would commit perjury to protect her super-secret no boyz allowed diary. The emotional heart of the story was nowhere near the episode. I don't get it. I loved the rest of War Crimes. I love most of the MS disclosure stories.

 

You said this much better and said what I was trying to say. :)  I didn't feel like they expressed at all well why Donna lied.  

[txhorns79]

I thought it was a very strange question for Donna to be asked and awkward the way Cliff responded.

 

I'll say it's fairly standard when I do a deposition to ask if a witness kept a diary or journal of the events at issue in the case.  From my point of view, the diary is kept contemporaneously with events, so it may provide a different prospective than what the witness is offering in the present day.  For example, if a person testifies that they hated the hospital where they were treated and complained a lot, but made no mention of these issues in their diary, that can raise questions about whether the person was being honest when they testified.  So for Donna, if she was asked about the MS, and testifies she had no idea before a certain date, while in her diary, she states otherwise, that could open a whole can of worms.  Even if Donna was doing it for the right reasons, she was extremely stupid to lie during her deposition.  In reality, I think she would have been fired for that kind of behavior.       

[Guest]

Not a fan of Manchester. It is weird, disjointed, and no one is acting normally. I guess that's how it goes when you're facing what they were, but I still don't like the episodes.

At least this time around I skipped Isaac and Ishmael.

[Kohola3]

In reality, I think she would have been fired for that kind of behavior.

 

In reality, I think she would have been in jail for that kind of behavior.

[Melancholy]

Aw, Manchester is among my favorite eps. Top ten material. I loved the dichotomy between scenes showing the month after the President informally announced (on Air Force One/in New Hampshire) and showing that month from Jed's informal announcement leading up to the trip to Manchester for the formal announcement. I think the characters all act as they would in such a high-stress, scared, "feeling reviled and newly mistrusted by like, the entire country" position. What's more, the dichotomy shows the process of how the stress affected the characters, most effectively showed with CJ. I mean,

 

SAM: She actually is tired, Leo. We all are.

LEO: Well, why don't we go with that, Sam? Let's go out and say we're all tired. The President's tired. Complications due to MS.

SAM: We haven't had much time...

LEO: [sharply] You had a week. How much time do you need?

SAM: [finally raising his voice, angry] Some of us have had more time than others!

 

It's brutal- but in a really effective way (for me at least!)

Edited January 30, 2016 by Melancholy

[Kohola3]

SAM: [finally raising his voice, angry] Some of us have had more time than others!

 

Beautifully delivered by Rob Lowe.

[Bastet]

I love Sam having C.J.'s back there, because I spend a lot of that MS reveal arc pissed off on her behalf.   Other than the president and Abbey, her actions are going to be the most scrutinized; the first thing every news department would do is assign someone to go back through every one of her press briefings to look for any comment she ever made remotely relating to the president's health.  Clip after clip of her speaking will be re-broadcast and analyzed. 

 

But she finds out from Leo.  And after just about everyone else.

[eyebleach]

I love the scene where CJ says the president will be happy to deal with something important.  It's such an easy slip of tongue but people will cling to that for ages.  You could totally see just how beyond her limit CJ was and how she knew she screwed up immediately.  One of my favs of CJ.

[Melancholy]

I love Sam having C.J.'s back there, because I spend a lot of that MS reveal arc pissed off on her behalf.   Other than the president and Abbey, her actions are going to be the most scrutinized; the first thing every news department would do is assign someone to go back through every one of her press briefings to look for any comment she ever made remotely relating to the president's health.  Clip after clip of her speaking will be re-broadcast and analyzed. 

 

But she finds out from Leo.  And after just about everyone else.

I know, right? Also call me petty and mean but I downright enjoyed Jed ripping into Josh at the end of S3 for his mistakes including "any more than it gets me tobacco which you gave away for lunch money" because I was pissed off that CJ's mistake in this episode was a mega-humiliation that nearly cost her job while Josh appeared to get off scot free for a far more easily avoided mistake. CJ was completely the whipping girl in the first three seasons. Josh/Toby/Sam get into trouble for their mistakes but it never feels as intense and humiliating from Leo and/or Jed as when CJ gets called on the carpet. 

 

Agreed with eyebleach that the "relieved" faux-pas was very well written and some one of my favorite CJ moments. Eyebleach, you perfectly described why it's a super-easy mistake to make but whatta poisonous soundbite that people could really cling to. 

 

Another IMO profoundly underrated CJ moment in Manchester:

 

CHRIS: Did the President tell you himself?

C.J.: No. Leo McGarry told me.

CHRIS: Why didn't the President tell you?

C.J.: Because Leo McGarry told me.

KATIE: C.J., could you describe your relationship with the President?

C.J. (sarcastically): Just good friends, Katie.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Melancholy

[rippleintime17]

One thing that bugged me about the diary subplot is that it's highly unlikely Donna would have ONE single diary covering her years working for the Bartlet campaign. Even if Cliff saw a single diary she's using now, it might not have had information about Jed that could be used against him. I always did wonder if Donna was able to get Josh to soften a bit by mentioning that she had written about him a little, and he was more inclined to let Cliff read it so as no one beyond that would. 

 

The ending of this season bugs me more than most other things. I just HATE when shows kill characters for the sake of killing them. Simon didn't need to die! The only thing that I hate more (spoilers for seasons beyond herein) was

that they felt it necessary to kill Fitz. It's quite obvious when the ER folks started showing up more since they had this tendency, especially with male characters, as well.