S03.E13: The Wrath Of The Lamb

[Bruinsfan]

I think for me the difference is that I never felt that inner darkness from Clarice, never felt like harming others is something that any part of her would want to do. With Will it's ugly and wrong, but also an expression of the darker part of his own nature—the ugliness and wrongness is his own, not something projected onto him by another. Will is tempted into enjoying the act of killing, not brainwashed into it.

[Captanne]

I don't think Clarice was originally supposed to have the darkness Will does.  Will's empathic ability with evil is unique to him.  (Which is what makes him so tragic a character -- because he has enough morality in him to recognize the power of Evil in himself and to want to exorcise it but, if he does, he then cannot help catch those who inflict Evil on the innocent.  He is really in a horrific situation -- all confined to his own mind.)

 

Will and Clarice are very different characters.  (Did Clarice ever catch Hannibal?  I don't think Clarice was near Will's league.)

[luna1122]

I know it's canon and probably the thesis of the whole series, but I never actually bought that Will would ever really succumb to the darkness. at least, not the darkness of murder. His empathy clearly tortured him, even while it made him a genius at his career, and I could see him turning the darkness against himself, in a multitude of ways. But I never really  believed he'd ever ENJOY or embrace killing. The Red Dragon doesn't count, not even his finding beauty in it, because that was clearly self defense.  I don't see--nor do I want to--a Will who actually embraces murdering innocents.

 

I see his darkness finding solace and understanding with Hannibal's. I see him being seduced by Hannibal. I can even see him letting himself live with Hannibal's monster if he doesn't have to actively participate, just in order to BE with him, and to be himself. But really BECOMING a monster himself, even for love, of whatever nature his and Hannibal's is? I can't see it. I don't want to see it. The inherent goodness in Will is stronger, I hope, even if he allows himself to acknowledge his own potential for evil, and even if he can love Hannibal despite his monstrousness. Which is why pitching themselves off the cliff was a perfect ending.

 

I've just spent 20 minutes laughing myself sick over the 'Hannibal tells bad jokes' series on lecterings tumblr account. it's brilliant, hilarious, and helps take the sting out of my prolonged mourning for the loss of this show.

 

http://lecterings.tumblr.com/tagged/lamejokeseries

[Captanne]

What really appealed to me about Will Graham all those years ago -- back in the early 80s in Manhunter -- was that this is not a supernatural story.  It's not in the realm of fantasy -- it was written as a psychological thriller about a guy who had the ability to profile the worst criminals in the world because he could, in a manner of speaking, identify with them to the point where he could predict their next moves and their motivations.

 

I've seen it written that Jack Crawford was fashioned after the real life profiler, John Douglas.  However, (and a flag should go up at that last sentence), Crawford isn't the profiler.  Graham is.  I have always felt that it was Graham who was fashioned after Douglas.

[kechara]

Unsub, with David Soul, was loosely based on John Douglas, I believe

[Brattinella]

Unsub, with David Soul, was loosely based on John Douglas, I believe

And what a great show that was!  So sorry they didn't make more episodes!

[kechara]

I have it on DVDs. It was a really good show. Creepy

[Snookums]

Loved that joke tumblr! Reminds me of a favorite:

 

Why are snakes measured in inches?

 

'Cause they don't have feet!

 

Hannibal wouldn't tell that one though. He's all European and they have the metric system.

[Brattinella]

I was reading some of the joke tumblr last night to my hubby; he was groaning a lot! :D

[luna1122]

my honey never watched the show with me, tho he knows how much it means to me...I read him some of the tumblr jokes too and it's just his kind of humor...we were crying. whoever is behind it is hilarious.

[MisterGlass]

 

Will and Clarice are very different characters.  (Did Clarice ever catch Hannibal?  I don't think Clarice was near Will's league.)

 

Clarice is more along the lines of a very good but traditional agent.  Quasi-spoilers for books to follow: 

As I recall Crawford got her involved because she had forensic training and he didn't have a normal tech to go to one of the Buffalo Bill murders.  I guess Zeller was in court or something :-)  In SOTL her focus is Buffalo Bill, and she meets Hannibal only because Crawford wants to see if she can tease out some cooperation.  Hannibal decides for his own reasons to help her.  He later escapes, and Clarice is not immediately involved in what follows.  Later in Hannibal, after Clarice is disgraced by a bad op, Hannibal contacts her.  She becomes involved in the search, and a lot of the investigative work she does is represented by Alana's research this season into Hannibal's tastes and preferences in cutlery, dishes, etc.  Clarice gets close, and I seem to remember Paul Krendler getting in the way.  Mason Verger kidnaps Hannibal, and while on suspension Clarice decides that Hannibal deserves a cell and not whatever Mason has in store.  She comes in guns out to get Hannibal with the plan of locking him in the trunk and driving to police station.  However, Clarice gets knocked out after freeing Hannibal and he takes over from there.

  And then everything goes downhill to an ending that some of us hate.

 

So Clarice doesn't have the empathy for Hannibal that Will can have.  She is much clearer eyed until the last bit of Hannibal.  I think she was talented, but her talents were not Will's talents, and as others have said she didn't seem to have the kind of dark inner potential that Will did.  This is a woman who

as an orphan sent to live on a sheep and horse ranch who couldn't stand by to see the lambs beings slaughtered, grabbed one, and tried to escape with it.  Failing to stop the slaughter, she had nightmares for years afterward.

 

 

I immediately saw he was a compelling actor, but I found his appearance kind of reptilian, alien.

 

That's funny, because reptilian is exactly the word that popped into my head in the first episode.  I didn't think that when I saw Mads previously in Casino Royale.  I think it may have been the flat affect in the first few episodes before we went behind the person suit - too controlled to be human.

 

Off topic: is anyone else having trouble with the site?

 

ETA: Hannibal bad jokes are fantastic.  The character reaction shots are perfect!

Edited September 8, 2015 by MisterGlass

[Captanne]

For an interesting take on the concept of Harris' Hannibal and Graham -- try the very last season of the 80s series, Beauty and the Beast.  Linda Hamilton left the show and they had one season after that.

 

Vincent (Ron Perlman's "Beast) reverts back to his old ways.  I've forgotten exactly how -- but he comes across a police officer who seems to know a lot about him.  It turns out, unbeknownst to him until later, she's been on his trail because the "normal people in the police department" view the trail of dead bodies he's left behind, considerably mutilated, are the work of a serial killer.

 

At one point, he sneaks into her loft apartment in NYC (jealous!!!), and sees she has a wall full of clippings and connections that -- eventually -- are going to lead her straight to him.  He is just not quite what she's going to expect to find.

 

I really, really liked it -- but the idea of profiling and serial killers as points of study had not hit mainstream television yet and it failed.  Mostly because there was a ton of baggage from the original series and a lot of the audience couldn't get over the "death of Catherine" (i.e., no Linda Hamilton.)

 

IIRC, the police officer looked a lot like Julianne Moore.  She was just lovely and neat.  (I looked her up -- it was Jo Anderson who does, in fact, look like Julianne Moore!  LOL)

 

ETA:  No trouble with the site but, my goodness, I keep posting general conversation things in topic specific threads.  If I have a problem it's what we used to refer to in the military as "operator error" -- LOLOL.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Captanne

[AwesomO4000]

Vincent (Ron Perlman's "Beast) reverts back to his old ways.  I've forgotten exactly how -- but he comes across a police officer who seems to know a lot about him.  It turns out, unbeknownst to him until later, she's been on his trail because the "normal people in the police department" view the trail of dead bodies he's left behind, considerably mutilated, are the work of a serial killer.

 

At one point, he sneaks into her loft apartment in NYC (jealous!!!), and sees she has a wall full of clippings and connections that -- eventually -- are going to lead her straight to him.  He is just not quite what she's going to expect to find.

 

I really, really liked it -- but the idea of profiling and serial killers as points of study had not hit mainstream television yet and it failed.  Mostly because there was a ton of baggage from the original series and a lot of the audience couldn't get over the "death of Catherine" (i.e., no Linda Hamilton.)

 

IIRC, the police officer looked a lot like Julianne Moore.  She was just lovely and neat.  (I looked her up -- it was Jo Anderson who does, in fact, look like Julianne Moore!  LOL).

 

It's been a long, long time - though I have the box DVD set so should rewatch at some point - but if I'm remembering correctly, Diana (Jo Anderson's character) found Vincent via her detective work. Vincent's trail of bodies - not all his doing - were related to his looking for his and Catherine's son and the resulting fight with the very powerful man who had his son (and had killed Catherine.) The trail left an important man in the wake - Elliot Burch (who ironically was trying to kill (via betrayal) Vincent himself, but ended up dying to save him). Elliot Burch lead to Catherine (he was an ex of Catherine's) and the detective work eventually lead to Diana figuring out that Vincent would return to Catherine's grave, which he did, and Diana found him, dying. He was in her bedroom, because her curiosity compelled her to save Vincent's life by having people help her bring him there. When he recovers and wakes up later, he sees all of her detective work that lead her to him.

 

I would expound a little on your comparison though, if you would indulge me. I can see the relationship comparison as being a combination of Catherine and Diana. Catherine is the accidentally-being-drawn-to-something-dark part. She was the one who had the fascination with Vincent's dark side that sometimes scared her. One episode dealt with Catherine wondering if she was taking more risks and putting herself in danger because she knew that Vincent would come to save her - often ending up in someone getting killed - and worrying about what that made her. Diana was the analytical side, but I don't think she was as drawn to Vincent's dark side despite herself like Catherine was.

 

In fact, weirdly, I have considered that had the series been written in another time and had Linda Hamilton continued on, I could very well have imagined a similar ending for Vincent and Catherine as happened here with Will and Hannibal... with Vincent eventually being compelled to go dark (maybe if they lost their son) and Catherine worried she would be drawn more to that than she should but not wanting to be without him. I could imagine Catherine being the Will part and engineering an end for them both -  with perhaps Diana on their heels, figuring out Vincent's decline - so Catherine could both stop herself from being tempted to protect and/or go along with a dark Vincent and protect Vincent from ultimately being caught and caged by Diana. (In my opinion, that would've been an entirely interesting direction for the show - but it would've been waaay ahead of its time I think.) And like Hannibal perhaps, Vincent at the last moment would go just let go and go along with it - the murder/suicide - for Catherine's sake.

 

Beauty & the Beast is often thought of as being overly romantic, but in my opinion, there were more darker edges hiding in there than at first met the eye - especially Catherine's admission that she might be more attracted to that darkness than she should be. I think maybe if Diana's character could've also had a little more of that in her as well wrapped up with her approaches to looking for killers, it might've helped. But I think in general, as you said, the concept was a bit ahead of its time.

 

And as for Jo Anderson, I've seen others online mistake her for Gillian Anderson and erroneously think that they were related.

[Captanne]

Wow, Awesom04000, that scratched an itch of mine!!  :-)

 

I think I also could see a sort of Hannibal/Graham of Fuller's universe ending for Catherine and Vincent.  Part of the problem of that B&B was that there was no real resolution -- there were a lot of alternatives, to be sure, but no clear path to commercial success.  Personally, I would have gone more deeply into Vincent's origin story.  

 

But they elected to go the route of profiling, Diana, and a forward thinking plot line for the Beast.  (My problem was how they were going to fit Below into it.  That would have been easy if they had taken MY advice, LOLOL.)

 

I remember being so excited to find Diana (the goddess of the hunt) "profiling" Vincent that I rapidly got over Catherine. LOL  Probably not what the creators of the show intended.

 

However, like Hannibal Lecter, Vincent had an uncontrollable violent and (while in the fugue state) intentional streak in him.  However, and very different from Hannibal, (a game changer, really) he was remorseful, confused by it, and saddened by it.

 

The way the show presented Catherine's question to herself, really, was that Vincent was shy (no better word) and reticent to come out in the daylight so there really was no other way to "see him" other than to draw him out by putting herself in peril.  (Catherine became a public defender, so she was often easy to put in dangerous circumstances.)

 

In some ways, that's the solution both Jack Crawford and Will Graham arrive at to draw out the Red Dragon.  Make Will vulnerable and the Dragon will make an attempt on his life.

 

The differences there are obvious, though.  (Vincent came to Catherine's rescue in the former.)

[luna1122]

you know--and I blame GreyBunny for sending me down the slashy fanfic rabbit hole, tho I can only blame myself for spending so much time there---the more I think about it, and I do, an embarrassing lot---i'm really grieved that we were robbed of at least ONE mads/Hannibal/hugh/will kiss. just one. I wasn't sure just HOW I did feel about the notion of it, at first, as, tho the romance/flirtation has been ongoing, the relationship literally going romantic still seemed more fanfic and not something the show, not even Fuller, would do.

 

but I really do think a kiss, as Will accepts himself and his feelings for Hannibal but also KNOWS he's about to end both of them---I think a kiss would have been organic at that point, and not just 'shipper pandering. I think the instincts of Mads and Hugh to (almost) go there while filming it were intuitive and right, and I"m really sorry we didn't  get to see it.

 

I wonder if Fuller was just saving it, thinking they'd get another season ,and if ,had he been sure this was, for now, he would have allowed it. Insisted on it, even.

 

I also really truly wonder where he intended to go in terms of the romance had we been given a next season. Did he plan to really go for it ,or keep it gauzy and subtextual and teasing? I'd think it would need to go slow, in terms of any real physicality. Will coming to terms with the idea of it--as I can't see that he was ever very comfortable with intimacy and sex, let alone with perhaps discovering that his sexuality is more fluid than he'd ever supposed before--I think it would have to handled delicately and with caution and time. I would love to have watched the seduction. Hugh and Mads have both played some really erotic gay scenes in films....I think it's a freaking shame that we never got to really see them going for it together.

 

I need to find a new, wholesomer hobby, probably.

[Captanne]

Hannibal would probably have bitten his lips off if the idea were original and his.  Instead, and as a nod to Bedelia's issues, he probably would have just eaten Will's tongue.

 

Ugh.

 

I don't like Hannibal, can you tell?  (I get that he's seductive.  I get that.  I just can't forget that he's an utter monster who abused the living shit out of Will at every opportunity.)

[luna1122]

hee.  Your feelings about Hannibal are really subtle, but I think I figured out that you hated him.

 

look, even shippers don't LIKE him .he's a crazy scary monster under the bed. Problem is, he looks like Mads Mikkelson, so lots of us want him IN that bed.

 

And no matter what turns the relationship with he and Will took ,there could never be anything but a tragic ending, mostly for Will, who would either wind up in prison, or an alcoholic in Florida, or dead. It's a sick, twisted, horrible love.

 

Mostly, I just want to see Mads and Hugh make out, tho, really.

[Captanne]

LOLOL  Own it!  That's awesome.  That made me smile.

 

All fun aside, though, I don't understand how -- either way we look at the relationship -- it could be called "love".  One person's love is another's abuse?  Do we take kitchen knives and cranial saws to the ones we "love"?  Does that person then turn around and set aside the violence and say, "I like what you do to me so I will stay with you?"  Or do they say, "I'm taking you over this cliff with me because I have to kill you before you kill anyone else," and is that love?

 

Since I never felt the sexual tension between the characters or the actors, "Love" between them is not a word that ever occurred to me until I read it here. 

[luna1122]

in the real world, this wouldn't be love. it'd be gross and stupid and masochistic and abusive. I can see why it'd be gross to someone who didn't see the chemistry or heat between the actors too. I'd NEVER romanticize anything even close to abusive in real life. It might be a dangerous thing that we can do that for art, tho, I don't know. I can draw a clear line in the sand, a real delineation between what I can find sexy in art and what I'd even come close to standing for in reality, but some people clearly can't, which is why there's so much abuse in the world.

 

But this show and all its dreamy, brutal, beautiful, poetic death and murder and evil are a fantasy with hot boys, so it's easy for me to just view it thru that lens

 

Fuller and Mads and Hugh have all used the word love to describe the relationship between Hannibal and Will. I'm sure they'd agree it's a sick love, and not what most of us would really call love in any real sense.

[Crossbow]

I don't like Hannibal, can you tell?  (I get that he's seductive.  I get that.  I just can't forget that he's an utter monster who abused the living shit out of Will at every opportunity.)

 

For some reason, I can get get past that. What I can't get past is that he always looks like he's supressing a smirk, which I completely repulsive. Although I think Mads Mikkelsen is smokin hot, he plays Hannibal in a way that, if I met him in real life, would set off every possible alarm in my reptilian brain. I would never let myself be alone in a room with that guy, or even within arm's reach of him.

 

In conclusion, Mads is freaking amazing.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Crossbow

[Bruinsfan]

I'll agree, it is amazing how much warmer and more sincere Mads looks in outtakes the second someone calls cut.

[luna1122]

Mads has the most amazing face, and he uses it expertly.  His eyes have an inherent cognac-colored warmth, but they can go shark-black-dead in a second. And his mouth is tender and vulnerable but cruel. He's an actor, sure, so it's his job, but it's fascinating to me how he can play brutality and sweetness and vulnerability and violence with equal measure and authenticity, sometimes in the same scene.

 

I haven't seen all of his films and have lots of catching up to do, but did watch part of 'Charlie countryman' on youtube...it's not a good movie; in fact, it's pretty terrible, but he's stunning....literally...evan Rachel woods' character calls him the most beautiful man she's ever seen, and he's lit all goldenly and dreamily, his hair longish and shaggy...and he really is. and then he goes full on murdering crime boss psycho. and he's still beautiful.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crossbow]

You know, I only saw Charlie Countryman last year but for some reason I don't remember much except for Mads. I don't remember thinking it was terrible, but it didn't stick with me. I remember reading a review that said it was mostly about "Shia LaBeouf grtting the sh*t kicked out of him," and I said, "But who among us hasn't wanted to kick the sh*t out of Shia LaBeouf?" So I rented it anyway. Mads walked away with the whole thing, as usual.

[paramitch]

Aw, dammit. I wrote this big huge thing with lots of quotes and comments, carefully prepared. But of course, the one time I didn't copy and paste it... POOF. It's gone into the ether.

 

So here's my inept rebuild in short.

 

Starting with: Oh, Holy Baroque perfection...  Yes, I'm a coward (and a late coward). To be honest, I haven't been able to face the "Hannibal" series finale until now (I loved the show too much). Life got in the way. And I kept not wanting to see "Hannibal" end. But I finally gave in. Wine was involved. But no legs were harmed in my final viewing (gah).

 

But oh, how gorgeous and perfect it was. Seriously. I loved the show but nothing could have topped that ending or the beautiful and complex way it brought these two men together, who both loved and loathed one another in equal measure and beyond all others. It ended the way it was meant to. I wouldn't want to see what came next. What a gorgeous, gorgeous show. What a perverse yet beautiful ending for these two men that I came to care about, and who I believe loved one another beyond any convention.

 

This was both fated and surprising, cruel yet also compassionate. Will giving in to an embrace with Hannibal -- I mean, just putting his arms around him, nestling his head against Hannibal's chest regardless of outcome... I found that so vulnerable and oddly beautiful. It was the prey embracing the predator for that single fierce heartbeat, regardless of outcome, and when Hannibal breathes and pauses, and puts his chin down on Will's head? I almost cried in spite of myself. Just perfect.

 

It was all very confusing for me because, on an intellectual level, Hannibal is horrible and awful and must be killed/stopped, while I feel great empathy for poor Will who is so acutely empathetic. There is no excusing this relationship. Except? That maybe Hannibal's love for Will in this universe is the one thing that humanizes hum, connects him, even allows us to love him. And Will's love for Hannibal, while profane to him, is still weirdly beautiful to me. 

 

I really dislked the Bedelia reveal and am not sure how I felt about it. I need to think more. I just... I don't know.

 

But I was happy with this overall. It was a powerful ending for Dolarhyde, and perverse, powerful resolution for Will. Everything he loved, everything he dreaded, everything he feared, all in one moment. And for Hannibal, oddly enough, as well. And can I just comment on how subtle and beautiful this cast was, and how wonderful and transformative especially the two leads were? Mads has become THE Hannibal for me, and Dancy made a beautiful, eternally fragile Will.

 

Last but not least, all you fabulous posters, I have so enjoyed your insights, analyses and comments on this gorgeous show. Thank you for making me think as well as feel. Discussing this show has been so much fun, and I'll miss you all (and look forward to continued "Hannibal" discussions -- on what remains -- in perpetuity).

 

This post was my design.

[luna1122]

aw, i'm so glad to see someone here still talking about our show. I hope it continues in perpetuity as well. And what a lovely post. I'm like you...I found the ending tragic but perfect. I thought I was okay with it being the end, but I am not sure I've ever been so haunted by a show, or a finale. I've loved lots of tv and film, and been ridiculously passionate about a select few.. .but none has ever refused to let go of me before. It's only been two weeks, so maybe that's it. .But I suspect it's because I'm really not ready for it to be the end, no matter how perfect, and no matter how what future episodes/adventures/films might lead us to and no matter that I might not like where they go.

 

I cried like a baby thru the finale, especially that final scene.

 

I finally watched 'The Hunt' this past weekend. I'm obsessively working my way thru Mads' filmography, but I had avoided this one. A few years ago, a friend was accused and stood trial for a terrible thing that she was innocent of...and acquitted, thankfully. but since, I've found it nearly impossible to watch or read anything dealing with someone being falsely accused of a crime. but: obsessed, so I watched. It's a devastating film, and Mads is freaking brilliant (of course). Seeing him vulnerable, sweet, even shy, rumply....so anti-Hannibal---he's so so so good. And so so so pretty.

[Crossbow]

"The Hunt" was completely amazing. And really hard to watch.

[millennium]

On 9/7/2015 at 10:28 PM, Captanne said:

For an interesting take on the concept of Harris' Hannibal and Graham -- try the very last season of the 80s series, Beauty and the Beast.  Linda Hamilton left the show and they had one season after that.

 

Vincent (Ron Perlman's "Beast) reverts back to his old ways.  I've forgotten exactly how -- but he comes across a police officer who seems to know a lot about him.  It turns out, unbeknownst to him until later, she's been on his trail because the "normal people in the police department" view the trail of dead bodies he's left behind, considerably mutilated, are the work of a serial killer.

 

At one point, he sneaks into her loft apartment in NYC (jealous!!!), and sees she has a wall full of clippings and connections that -- eventually -- are going to lead her straight to him.  He is just not quite what she's going to expect to find.

 

I really, really liked it -- but the idea of profiling and serial killers as points of study had not hit mainstream television yet and it failed.  Mostly because there was a ton of baggage from the original series and a lot of the audience couldn't get over the "death of Catherine" (i.e., no Linda Hamilton.)

 

IIRC, the police officer looked a lot like Julianne Moore.  She was just lovely and neat.  (I looked her up -- it was Jo Anderson who does, in fact, look like Julianne Moore!  LOL)

 

ETA:  No trouble with the site but, my goodness, I keep posting general conversation things in topic specific threads.  If I have a problem it's what we used to refer to in the military as "operator error" -- LOLOL.

I remember the final season of Beauty and the Beast very well.    My favorite season of the whole show.  Jo Anderson as Diana was a refreshing and much-needed break from Linda Hamilton (never liked Hamilton in anything).   Anderson got a lot of work as a character actor in the 90s.   I remember her turning up in single episodes of thirtysomething and Northern Exposure.

I think I still have several episodes of that B&TB season recorded on VHS.   Not that I have a VHS player anymore ...

On 9/3/2015 at 11:21 AM, Captanne said:

I actually loved To Live and Die in LA.  LOLOL  I was a fan of Wang Chung, too.  

 

It's okay -- I get it.  I can't stand Tom Hanks.  So, there's that.  

We should have hung out back then.   I even have -- get ready -- the To Live and Die in L.A. soundtrack album on vinyl.  Not that I have a turntable anymore ... 

Edited August 15, 2017 by millennium

[Captanne]

We totally should have hung out. I had the To Live and Die in LA soundtrack, too!

I loved the the "huntress" was named Diana. What a clever show. 

[millennium]

Well, more than a year later and I finally gave in and watched the final three episodes I had been saving for a rainy day.

This series never disappoints.   The actors and writers vie for supremacy and the result is more in keeping with the best cable series than network television.  I groaned when I first saw Richard Armitage but he did a laudable job with the role

I didn't get the Will/Hannibal sex vibe that appears to have captivated so many others.   I did detect the writers trying to cater to that whim, but in Will and Hannibal I see Batman and the Joker, a weird, primal symbiosis in which sex has no place because it's entirely a mindfuck.

My impression of the Bedelia scene was that she cut off her own leg and served it up, expecting Hannibal to appear.    Then I recalled the movie where Lecter drugged a guy and served him his own brain.   So who knows.   In any event, that dress was not Bedelia.   It was even more disturbing than her leg.   Gillian Anderson killed this role.