The Clarks vs Camp Dinner Bell: Comparing FTWD and TWD

[JBody]

mandolin, all the cardboard has been properly folded and placed in the appropriate recycling bin.

 

I honestly don't know what the POINT of this show is.  Please someone, tell me the point.  WHY....

 

AMC is the twenty-first-century P.T. Barnum -- there's a sucker born every minute -- and yep, I'm one of them.  This miserly, penny-pinching display of the apocalypse reminds me of that leaked memo whereby one of the AMC suits asks re. TWD S4, "Do we *have* to show the zombies all the time...  can't we just hear them sometimes?..."  Always and forever about scrimping and saving every last dime possible.  Class act, AMC.  But who am I to argue?  They have the ratings. 

 

I really want to like this show.  There are things I like about this show.  But if it's going to crawl at this snail's pace and draw everything out, SHOW me the breakdown.  Don't skip ahead a week and a half on ep 4.  It's a cheat. 

 

*Edited to update analogy to current century.

Edited September 21, 2015 by JBody

[mandolin]

mandolin, all the cardboard has been properly folded and placed in the appropriate recycling bin.

...

I honestly don't know what the POINT of this show is.  Please someone, tell me the point.  WHY....

...

  But if it's going to crawl at this snail's pace and draw everything out, SHOW me the breakdown.  Don't skip ahead a week and a half on ep 4.  It's a cheat. 

 

Of course. I'm sure Travis is handling the recycling during his jogs.

 

Yes, the point...to show society's breakdown. I agree about the time skipping. Why? Maybe because they are showing so little of society actually breaking down. Might as well skip to Nick's next fix.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

You bring up monumentally great points, JBody and mandolin.

 

I almost wonder if the writers room meetings went something like this for E4; 

-  "How can we really unsettle the audience this time, folks?" 

-  "Oh!  I know.  How about we conveniently forget we're supposed to be chronicling the start of the ZA in the WD universe and *skip ahead* a few days and show a derelict LA?  That's right, you heard me.  A derelict LOS ANGELES.  Not even one walker to shtumble around in view - or none hanging around the SZ fence line despite there being a bunch of edible people inside the fenced in area that the Clarks/Manawas/Salazars, military, and others are at - not even dead walkers that had been at the fence but the military took care of." 

-  "GREAT idea!  Let's go with that - I'm sure we can stretch that out over 45 minutes."

Edited September 21, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[tv echo]

The lesson I'm learning from FTWD is that you can't catch lightning in a bottle twice when it comes to making a good zombie show.

Edited September 22, 2015 by tv echo

[RustbeltWriter]

What was especially laughable was the captain giving his briefing and people are asking about when the power will be back on. If you live in a safe zone with a few hundred people and someone tells you there are only 12 of them, well, do the math. Why is no one clamoring for news about what is going on in the rest of the world? This douchebag gives people smartass answers and then goes to hit a few golf balls? Say what?

Edited September 22, 2015 by RustbeltWriter

[HighMaintenance]

What was especially laughable was the captain giving his briefing and people are asking about when the power will be back on. If you live in a safe zone with a few hundred people and someone tells you there are only 12 of them, well, do the math. Why is no clamoring for news about what is going on in th erest of the world? This douchebag gives people smartass answers and then goes to hit a few golf balls? Say what?

Because in the ZA world, everyone in the military, NAY, any position of authority is "teh EVIL".  The characters on FTWD don't seem to care about what is going on outside their environment, they just seem complacent to stay in their little East LA neighborhood and kowtow to the whims of Major PITA.  *Sigh* Well, guess this is our life now. *Shrug*    Camp Dinner Bell was fishing, hunting, looking for water, setting up alarm systems for walkers, etc.  (Well, yes, also doing laundry and ironing, but they were in the denial phase).  Camp Barrio is totally relying on the benevolence of the military and spending their time painting, jogging and lounging in the pool.

 

I'm not positive about the population of the FTWD encampment, but I think it is a few thousand in Camp Barrio, although you would never know it by the meager handful of extras milling around the military vehicle.

 

Regarding the fortifications surrounding the barrio, FTWD folks have chain-link, Alexandria has 20 foot high sheet metal (although it has support struts that any living person could easily climb on the outside of the wall - idiot engineering at work).  So, what is that flimsy chain-link put up by the military supposed to keep out (or maybe in)?  As we know TWD prison season taught us that even prison grade chain link will eventually collapse when 20 or 30 walkers pile in one place and then it's dinner time! And what's to keep out marauding bands of still living gypsies, tramps and thieves who have no food/water/shelter? Hell, if Madison can stroll in and out in broad daylight, apparently GI Joe isn't patrolling the perimeter that well.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

^ Actually, the real question we should be asking ourselves, is if the army put up the chain link fence to form a perimeter and (hopefully) keep the zombies out, why in the world would people be allowed to have & keep bolt/metal cutters on hand?  There's no way that thing wasn't in their garage or somewhere super-secretly hidden.

[HighMaintenance]

And to take it a step further, why didn't the military notice Madison & Co. taking turns sitting on their roof and signalling someone outside the perimeter or at the very least scoping out the situation in the surrounding city?  If the military wants to keep Camp Barrio in the dark about the ZA (to keep them from panicking?, um I guess...), they're not following up on that.  Maybe the National Guard should distract everyone with a game of Monopoly.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

And to take it a step further, why didn't the military notice Madison & Co. taking turns sitting on their roof and signalling someone outside the perimeter or at the very least scoping out the situation in the surrounding city?  If the military wants to keep Camp Barrio in the dark about the ZA (to keep them from panicking?, um I guess...), they're not following up on that.  Maybe the National Guard should distract everyone with a game of Monopoly.

 

I have a feeling that this joke - at least used in reference to FTWD - will never stop being (at least a little) funny.  lol

[Nashville]

Maybe the National Guard should distract everyone with a game of Monopoly.

Nah. Colonel Cracksniffer is exactly the kind of asshat who would throw a kiddie fit if he didn't get the car.

ETA: Excuse me - Lieutenant Cracksniffer.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Nashville

[rab01]

Last night, the Walking Dead pilot happened to be showing on a local channel and, even though I've seen it several times, I was sucked in again and watched it all the way through. Yeah, there's no news there but it really highlighted 3 differences between the two shows that are killing FTWD for me:
 
1) The original has amazing visuals. The camera lingers on open vistas that give you enough time to realize the one thing that's out of place or the huge thing that's now messed up (not just riding a horse past a now permanent traffic jam on the other side but also the peaceful grass field where Rick tracks down and mercy kills the half zombie). The new show sets most of it scenes in visually uninteresting locations where nothing is out of place; it's just boring to look at. Empty streets can't convey menace when all the streets they've shown were empty for budget reasons - there's no contrast.

 

2) Rick and Morgan and the others were very expressive characters; their faces move all the time and very few emotions are kept in check.  On the current show, no one is emoting fear, despair or shock about anything that is happening except when it happens directly to them. On an individual actor-by-actor basis, that's not a bad choice but it is much less operatic and therefore everything about the new show is muted. That's particularly a problem when all of us watching have accepted and enjoyed the acting style of the old show. 

 

3) The new show is not paying any attention to the details of set dressing, which compounds all the other problems.  Other than post-its near the clock and the stupid mistake of showing a fridge full of miscellaneous stuff when there are power outages, I can't think of anything distinctive about the Clark's house.  By comparison, everything about Morgan's place was thought through (blankets covering the windows, mattresses on the ground floor, not upstairs, the lighting ... everything).  If we saw laundry lines to save energy, a stack of containers for carrying govt issue food, a posted set of military regs, a hiss of static from TVs and radios as the power comes on ... just something that tells about the new normal.

 

Basically, the new show is sloppy, cheap, and uninterested in how it looks so we are left with only the characters and the plot to focus on.  That makes Kim Dickens' immobile face and the plot-holes even harder to take.     

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I admit to being surprised by how bad FTWD has been so far.  I was under the impression that it was under the same "management" as the parent show.  I realize that most of the focus is, and should be, on TWD but how can FTWD be so far off the reservation in terms of quality (of everything) if basically the same people are running the show?

 

Also, that 9-day time jump to start E4.  What a joke.  For a show that was supposed to be "detailing the start of the ZA outbreak, at and from 'Day 0'" - and was  for the first three episodes - the jumping ahead like that (and combined with the supposed plans to line up the two shows' timelines, in the future), why not just pick up E4 the same day Rick woke up from his coma?  *shrugs*

[mandolin]

I agree. To me, it seems like Nick saw his drug dealer come back to life, there were a couple homeless people shot, the mom saw the principal zombified, and now we're quarantined. There were NO moments of the larger world/community discovering things. No mass hysteria. The riot was more about police brutality than fear of dead people reanimating. We saw two scenes of Tobias "knowing" what was coming. 

 

The show seems to want to show us more "look how troubled and dysfunctional this family is" than "look how this normal, decent family reacts as the world falls apart." I'd much rather have seen the latter.

[ghoulina]

rab01, excellent post, spot on comparison. I have one word for, which will explain the drastic differences - Darabont. 

[NurseGiGi]

The big difference seems to be budget, or the lack of one.  Reminds me of season 2 of TWD when they cut their budget even after the huge ratings of the first season.  

 

And yes, of course, Darabont. 

Last night, the Walking Dead pilot happened to be showing on a local channel and, even though I've seen it several times, I was sucked in again and watched it all the way through. Yeah, there's no news there but it really highlighted 3 differences between the two shows that are killing FTWD for me:
 
1) The original has amazing visuals. The camera lingers on open vistas that give you enough time to realize the one thing that's out of place or the huge thing that's now messed up (not just riding a horse past a now permanent traffic jam on the other side but also the peaceful grass field where Rick tracks down and mercy kills the half zombie). The new show sets most of it scenes in visually uninteresting locations where nothing is out of place; it's just boring to look at. Empty streets can't convey menace when all the streets they've shown were empty for budget reasons - there's no contrast.

 

2) Rick and Morgan and the others were very expressive characters; their faces move all the time and very few emotions are kept in check.  On the current show, no one is emoting fear, despair or shock about anything that is happening except when it happens directly to them. On an individual actor-by-actor basis, that's not a bad choice but it is much less operatic and therefore everything about the new show is muted. That's particularly a problem when all of us watching have accepted and enjoyed the acting style of the old show. 

 

3) The new show is not paying any attention to the details of set dressing, which compounds all the other problems.  Other than post-its near the clock and the stupid mistake of showing a fridge full of miscellaneous stuff when there are power outages, I can't think of anything distinctive about the Clark's house.  By comparison, everything about Morgan's place was thought through (blankets covering the windows, mattresses on the ground floor, not upstairs, the lighting ... everything).  If we saw laundry lines to save energy, a stack of containers for carrying govt issue food, a posted set of military regs, a hiss of static from TVs and radios as the power comes on ... just something that tells about the new normal.

 

Basically, the new show is sloppy, cheap, and uninterested in how it looks so we are left with only the characters and the plot to focus on.  That makes Kim Dickens' immobile face and the plot-holes even harder to take.     

I love this whole post.

[kj4ever]

I was also disappointed how Liza was already told that they all just come back whether bit or not.  They jacked that up with the CDC in TWD, and now they just spill it out like that to Liza?  Man that could have made for an awesome storyline in the new one.

[nodorothyparker]

That reveal is one of the very few things I'll give them because it actually makes sense that medical personnel who are on the front lines would have noticed reasonably quickly that ALL the dead rise, regardless of whether they were bit or not.  The closest thing Rick's group had to anyone like that was Herschel, and he'd been hanging on the farm with his barn full of walkers he was hoping to cure.   Putting off the reveal on the mother show only worked because they'd been lucky enough to not have anyone die of natural causes or nonwalker related injuries.  Had Carl died in Herschel's house after being shot, season 2 would turned out very differently.

[KirkB]

Had Carl died in Herschel's house after being shot, season 2 would turned out very differently.

 

 

 

Oooh, now I have an image of undead Carl munching on Herschel or his mom. :)

 

And I have to wonder who an undead Nick would get hold of first, his mother or Travis?

[Nashville]

Lifted from another thread:
 

Day 1: zombie drug dealer
Day 3: riots from police shooting people
Day 12 (or whatever): we are fenced in our community and LA is completely empty

Whaa?

Where are people being concerned that CIVILIZATION IS ENDING and the majority of the world's population is dead or eating people? Do they just not get it? I really wanted to see society descend into chaos, but with no people in LA, it's kind of hard.

In truth, this is what really chaps my nads. When FTWD's premise was first announced it generated a lot of excitement about the potential for showing modern society's slide into the ZA abyss, and AMC traded a lot on that excitement.
The delivered product, however, has majorly failed to deliver on that potential. Significant chunks of the ZA evolutionary timeline have thus far been totally omitted from the story line. Viewers were shown isolated instances (the church/shooting gallery, the walker on the interstate), taken a day or so from that to a couple of closely-associated-but-still-individual instances (the cop shootings which incited the riots), to some walkers grabbing some quick snacks on the run under the cover of the riot's melee, to - what?

Fast-forward a week and a half.
L.A. has flipped to Zombieland.
Several million people have either turned, evac'ed, or been rounded up in "safe zones".

Really, motherfuckers?

Where's the growing menace? The growing fear and panic? The virulent spread and growth of scattered individual attacks growing into pockets of violence before coalescing into zones of infection and death? The rushed panic of millions of people fleeing a city which was formerly their home, but is now a breeding ground for a new, horrible kind of Black Plague?
Most importantly, WHERE WAS THE TIPPING POINT!?!? At what point did the city cease to be a city, and become a battleground? When did the City of Angels transition into the City of the Undead? What prompted residents to cease being Angelenos and become homeless refugees?

These writers, directors, producers, etc. had the opportunity to craft an an absolutely PHENOMENAL story here - one with the potential of surpassing its progenitor, even - and absolutely squandered it. They had a shot at a grand slam home run, and chose to bunt instead.

Don't know about yall, but I feel cheated as hell.

[KirkB]

Nashville, your whole post is pretty much my problem with FEAR. I don't get why it even exists if they don't seem to want to actually show the beginnings of the apocalypse, which I thought was the point. TWD skipped over the whole fall of civilization by having Rick sleep through it, because the showrunners didn't think it was interesting enough or didn't care to tell that part of the story. Fine. Why then did they bother to set a show expressly in that period, only to skip right past everything and get to the aftermath? If you don't want to dwell on how or why things fell apart, why keep teasing the issue? 

Edited September 29, 2015 by KirkB

[JBody]

In truth, this is what really chaps my nads. When FTWD's premise was first announced it generated a lot of excitement about the potential for showing modern society's slide into the ZA abyss, and AMC traded a lot on that excitement.

The delivered product, however, has majorly failed to deliver on that potential. Significant chunks of the ZA evolutionary timeline have thus far been totally omitted from the story line. Viewers were shown isolated instances (the church/shooting gallery, the walker on the interstate), taken a day or so from that to a couple of closely-associated-but-still-individual instances (the cop shootings which incited the riots), to some walkers grabbing some quick snacks on the run under the cover of the riot's melee, to - what?

Fast-forward a week and a half.

L.A. has flipped to Zombieland.

Several million people have either turned, evac'ed, or been rounded up in "safe zones".

Really, motherfuckers?

Where's the growing menace? The growing fear and panic? The virulent spread and growth of scattered individual attacks growing into pockets of violence before coalescing into zones of infection and death? The rushed panic of millions of people fleeing a city which was formerly their home, but is now a breeding ground for a new, horrible kind of Black Plague?

Most importantly, WHERE WAS THE TIPPING POINT!?!? At what point did the city cease to be a city, and become a battleground? When did the City of Angels transition into the City of the Undead? What prompted residents to cease being Angelenos and become homeless refugees?

These writers, directors, producers, etc. had the opportunity to craft an an absolutely PHENOMENAL story here - one with the potential of surpassing its progenitor, even - and absolutely squandered it. They had a shot at a grand slam home run, and chose to bunt instead.

Don't know about yall, but I feel cheated as hell.

 

I'm just gonna go ahead and quote this for posterity, Nashville, because you've expressed my dismay at this dismal effort far more eloquently than I ever could.

Edited September 29, 2015 by JBody

[JBody]

Nashville, your whole post is pretty much my problem with FEAR. I don't get why it even exists if they don't seem to want to actually show the beginnings of the apocalypse, which I thought was the point. TWD skipped over the whole fall of civilization by having Rick sleep through it, because the showrunners didn't think it was interesting enough or didn't care to tell that part of the story. Fine. Why then did they bother to set a show expressly in that period, only to they could skip right past everything and get to the aftermath? If you don't want to dwell on how or why things fell apart, why keep teasing the issue? 

 

KirkB, I want to clarify just a tad, in that you were correct that Kirkman didn't care to tell that part of the story (nor AMC really, being cheapass bastards) but it's pretty well known Darabont wanted to go there and they kiboshed it (this has Darabont's letter confirming his plans for the S2 opener: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/52526)

 

And now we have this FTWD mess.  All hype and no substance -- or at least it's not the substance that was advertised.

[nodorothyparker]

I was just about to copy and past Nashville's post in its entirety too because it sums up my utter frustration with the premise and execution of this show probably better than I could have.  I wanted to like this.  I initially defended its slow start despite wooden acting and sometimes terrible writing but now I'm just left feeling like what an utter waste it's all been.

[NurseGiGi]

Lifted from another thread:

 

In truth, this is what really chaps my nads. When FTWD's premise was first announced it generated a lot of excitement about the potential for showing modern society's slide into the ZA abyss, and AMC traded a lot on that excitement.

The delivered product, however, has majorly failed to deliver on that potential. Significant chunks of the ZA evolutionary timeline have thus far been totally omitted from the story line. Viewers were shown isolated instances (the church/shooting gallery, the walker on the interstate), taken a day or so from that to a couple of closely-associated-but-still-individual instances (the cop shootings which incited the riots), to some walkers grabbing some quick snacks on the run under the cover of the riot's melee, to - what?

Fast-forward a week and a half.

L.A. has flipped to Zombieland.

Several million people have either turned, evac'ed, or been rounded up in "safe zones".

Really, motherfuckers?

Where's the growing menace? The growing fear and panic? The virulent spread and growth of scattered individual attacks growing into pockets of violence before coalescing into zones of infection and death? The rushed panic of millions of people fleeing a city which was formerly their home, but is now a breeding ground for a new, horrible kind of Black Plague?

Most importantly, WHERE WAS THE TIPPING POINT!?!? At what point did the city cease to be a city, and become a battleground? When did the City of Angels transition into the City of the Undead? What prompted residents to cease being Angelenos and become homeless refugees?

These writers, directors, producers, etc. had the opportunity to craft an an absolutely PHENOMENAL story here - one with the potential of surpassing its progenitor, even - and absolutely squandered it. They had a shot at a grand slam home run, and chose to bunt instead.

Don't know about yall, but I feel cheated as hell.

I don't just feel cheated, I feel as though they took advantage of TWD's huge fan base so they could grab the money and run.  Not cool, y'all.  Not cool.

[rab01]

I really didn't expect it but this show is making me less interested in the return of TWD. I'll still end up watching it all but I may wait a few extra weeks and let them accumulate on my DVR. After watching several weeks of episodes inside the LA safe zone, I'm not ready to go back to the Alexandria Safe Zone.

[ghoulina]

KirkB, I want to clarify just a tad, in that you were correct that Kirkman didn't care to tell that part of the story (nor AMC really, being cheapass bastards) but it's pretty well known Darabont wanted to go there and they kiboshed it (this has Darabont's letter confirming his plans for the S2 opener: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/52526)

 

I wish I never read that, because...wow. 

 

Can we start a petition to get Darabont back? Headlining both shows? (Not that I mind Gimple, really, he does a pretty good job.)

[FierceCritter]

Read all the posts up to here. My observations (Forgive me for not quoting directly. I take notes on things I would like to comment on as I read on a tablet, then sit at a laptop to actually compose the post):

 

RE: Lack of zombies due to production costs. I could buy this if we're talking many weeks/months/years dead zombies like in TWD. But we're talking DAYS dead, or a couple weeks at the most. The physical changes don't involve much beyond contact lenses and surface makeup. A little facial prosthesis to make the eyes appear slightly sunken and cheekbones more prominent. The occasional wound from a bullet, car crash, etc. If this show doesn't have enough $$ to do even that much, why bother with it in the first place? It's like planning a major soiree and sending out invitations calling for formalwear, then serving beanie weenies on paper plates.

In defense of the seeming lack of logic in the procedures and strategies being concocted by the government and carried out by the military, we cannot completely fault the writers for what they're making the characters do. This is because there is no "reality" on which the writers can base how ANYONE would react to a ZA. Nor is there an existing precedent for the characters in the show, as none of them have lived through anything even imaginably like what is happening. I have not read all the TWD threads over the years. So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the show being written as if a ZA isn't something that existed in the characters' lore prior to it actually happening? If so, then all this is hitting everyone hard, fast and stunningly. EVERYBODY is making it up as they go along. And sure as spit, mistakes are going to be made.

Repeating something I brought up in last episode's thread, it was apparent in many scenes of many locations on TWD that the military was REALLY quickly and totally overwhelmed (nobody left standing at the CDC, helicopters crashed all over, military bases themselves destroyed, etc). How often have we seen ANY active or even former military on TWD itself? An oft-used trope in PA fiction & movies are either helpful or dangerous remaining military personnel/soldiers. Unless I'm forgetting something, the only appearance of any of that were the ones in the helicopter discovered by Michonne and Andrea, and then the Governor. If TPTB really are trying on FTWD to keep some kind of related chronology of events leading up to Rick waking up, then they may be making it a point to be showing viewers just how quickly and easily the government and military were completely ineffective and effectually wiped out.

There are probably MASSIVE containments of walkers such as being hinted at in the Staples Center ALL OVER the country. If the military is doing this in LA, then ALL military operations across the country are probably handling their zombie populations THE SAME WAY. The United States has become one, giant teenage zombie-zit covered face that - possibly in the next episode - is going to come to a head and explode all at once, with no hope of containing the fallout. And maybe the thing that's going to set it all to popping is going to be the call for Cobalt to be enacted in EVERY military "contained" area at the same time. OUCH. OOPS.

I agree with whomever suggested that what would have been more interesting would have been showing the lives of our TWD favorites during this same pre-ZA time period. See what life really was like for Carol with that monster Ed before she became Scarol. See Michonne's life when she was able to be a hot intellectual before she had to become a hot, extremely talented sword wielder/survivor. See if there was more to Shane and Lori's pre-ZA relationship that might have explained the tenseness between her and Rick (I had my suspicions). BUT... we are talking much higher production costs because these actors have become worth MUCH more than when they started, and then there's the fact that they already have to walk around with the same head and facial hair (excepting wig-wearers like Danai Gurira) even between shooting on TWD. That plus much more makes what would have been a MASSIVELY interesting show idea unfeasible.

Regarding the possibility of a lot of season 2 being flashbacks of the 9 days we didn't get to actually see in this season. I have a love/hate relationship with flashbacks. In TWD, I liked brief glimpses of how things went down during the timeframe of FTWD such as in season 1's "TS-19" when Shane goes back to Rick at the hospital, or how some of them were in the traffic jam when Atlanta went boom. But I also can get really annoyed by them, such as the ones in the Season 4 episode "A," which slowed it down too much IMO. I want to see the events of FTWD happen chronologically, not have half the second season bounce back and forth between what continues to happen with the characters and what should have been shown in the first.

TWD worked without showing what happened before because we knew the focus would be on how people were carrying on and dealing with what already went down. It was understood - ZA went down hard. Here's how life ended up. FTWD (many of us believed) was supposed to be about a ZA going down and how people adapt as they go along. So far, we're not seeing much of the ZA going down, and only seeing people being corralled around and told what to do. There's very little proactive action from them. It almost would be more interesting to see a second family of doomsday preppers so we could see how the way a completely unprepared family can survive just as well as a family who were ready to go into action from day one.

I plan to stick with it. I do hope for an improvement on some of this, or at least better action to make up for the dullness of this season in Season 2. I'm still going to hate the way Kim Dickens' face is stuck in neutral, but nothing can be done to change that now. Though I'd actually support what someone else suggested, that the finale is the entire freaking current cast (save one or two) gets eaten and we get a whole new cast. Wishful thinking. 

 

Edited October 3, 2015 by HalcyonDays
Removed spoiler tags - not needed in thread

[JBody]

Sorry Ghoulina.  I know what you mean.  How cool would that have been?

[NurseGiGi]

That would have been very cool, indeed, Jbody and Ghoulina.  Makes me wonder how TWD would have turned out with Darabont still heading it.

[HighMaintenance]

Reading that idea for TWD's 2nd season opener by Darabont, makes me think it would have been brilliant.  I wish we could have seen where the series would have gone if he had stayed on and directed the following seasons (and AMC hadn't stupidly cut the budget on an apparent ratings and revenue juggernaut).  Had Darabont stayed on board, I'd bet that TWD would probably be rated up there with the likes of Breaking Bad and The Sopranos.  Although it has a rabid fan base, it's not a contender for awards nor critical acclaim - it's that gross zombie show.

 

FTWD (and to a lesser degree IMO recent seasons of TWD) is missing opportunities to show good, compelling character development.  Both shows are trying to tie together dissimilar groups of survivors (and walkers) to tell a story of a societal collapse.  FTWD is clearly doing a pretty poor job of it, (as reflected by most of the postings on the forums here)  as most of us don't care about most of the characters.  They're 2 dimensional, they act in illogical/nonsensical ways, they seem oblivious to the whole scenario around them.  Part of the blame has to be with the actors abilities to convey emotion, but eventually it comes back to the writing and direction of the showrunners.

 

Watching FTWD reminds me of my anticipation of the NBC series Revolution.  It was another series set in a post apocalyptic world (one where devices that need electricity/gasoline power cease to operate) which at first seemed full of promise, but then devolved into soap opera drama and illogical premises and seemed to have no real direction on where to go.  I followed it through the 1st season - begrudgingly - and by the time the 2nd season came around, it had lost it's grip on me altogether.  I will undoubtedly do the same with FTWD.  However, I'll be quite happy to come back to the bloated, rotting, fetid corpse of TWD as a loyal fan.

[Irishmaple]

I can't think of anything that could taint my love for TWD, but Fear is more in line IMO with shows like The Event, the above-mentioned Revolution, The Last Resort and Under The Dome. All came with an intriguing premise, some likeable characters, and then were crippled by episode 3 or 5 due to poor execution. I started each show full of interest and dropped each of them in disappointment.

Why did Fear choose to make both Travis and Madison employees of the same school, a setting that was dropped by episode 2? Why not have one work in a hospital or in media to give us an immediate and closer look at the chaos?

[mandolin]

Why did Fear choose to make both Travis and Madison employees of the same school, a setting that was dropped by episode 2? Why not have one work in a hospital or in media to give us an immediate and closer look at the chaos?

Because there really isn't a whole lot of chaos apparently?

[KirkB]

IRISHMAPLE, ON 30 SEPT 2015 - 1:00 PM, SAID:

Why did Fear choose to make both Travis and Madison employees of the same school, a setting that was dropped by episode 2? Why not have one work in a hospital or in media to give us an immediate and closer look at the chaos?

 

 

To limit their awareness and to save money. If Travis or Madison had been a hospital worker they would have been exposed to more people with strange bite marks and possibly reanimating corpses. If either of them were a reporter they would have investigative skills or at least a tendency to ask questions and try to figure out what is going on, instead of jogging or sitting around drinking while literally waiting for paint to dry. They also save money by using the same school set and keep the cast in remarkably similar looking houses. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by KirkB

[RustbeltWriter]

I feel robbed. With six episodes they could have shown us so much more of society falling.

 

• Where were the news reports? I wanted to see dumbfounded anchors in news studios looking on in disbelief as reporters on assignment were sharing stories of the dead hounding the living.
• How cool would it have been to see the people trapped in traffic trying to figure out what to do about the walkers roaming the freeways and 911 returning a busy signal?
• We saw no one worried about whether to show up for work or not. The waitress at the donut shop obviously felt the need to go in to work so it would have been satisfying to see why she did that. Single mom? College student who needed the money?
• How scary would Skid Row have been as the infection spread among the homeless?

 

It's just unbelievable that the end of the world happened and it wasn't televised.

 

I think the show would have been much better if Madison, Travis and Liza all worked in different fields and locations so the writers could have built tension toward a more satisfying climax.

 

The worst decision the producers made was letting anyone write the line of dialogue that stated nine days had passed. That killed the concept of the show and turned this series into the same series we've been watching for five years.

Edited October 5, 2015 by RustbeltWriter

[mandolin]

The worst decision the producers made was letting anyone write the line of dialogue that stated nine days had passed. That killed the concept of the show and turned this series into the same series we've been watching for five years.

 

Except for without all the things I like about TWD. I just hope this crappy show doesn't bring down the original in some way.

[nodorothyparker]

I feel robbed. With six episodes they could have shown us so much more of society falling.

 

• Where were the news reports? I wanted to see dumbfounded anchors in news studios looking on in disbelief as reporters on assignment were sharing stories of the dead hounding the living.
• How cool would it have been to see the people trapped in traffic trying to figure out what to do about the walkers roaming the freeways and 911 returning a busy signal?
• We saw no one worried about whether to show up for work or not. The waitress at the donut shop obviously felt the need to go in to work so it would have been satisfying to see why she did that. Single mom? College student who needed the money?
• How scary would Skid Row have been as the infection spread among the homeless?

 

It's just unbelievable that the end of the world happened and it wasn't televised.

 

I'm with you.  There are tons of questions they could have tried to tackle even without high priced locations or special effects, since it became clear early on that the show was trying to lowball anything that smacked of spending money to do this right.  The mother show has been showing us car pileups or long lines of abandoned vehicles clogging up roadways for five years.  They've done a somewhat decent job of implying what happened with some of it, but why not finally show us?  How long did people sit in their cars waiting for traffic to clear up or help to come?  Did a herd come through?  Looters who dragged some of them out?  What is the tipping point where you decide to abandon the relative safety of your car and try to walk out?  Where do you go at that point?

 

Thinking about how hysterical our cable news is now often about nothing, I wanted to see TV hosts ranting about government coverups and trying to blame the lack of an organized response on the opposing political party while local agencies slowly come undone.  Video clips of people being eaten looped over and over while anchors try gamely to come up with something to say about it.  A Pat Robertson figure ranting about the coming wrath of God instead of some half-assed Bible verse in toilet paper stuck in a fence.  Other than a scene or two of Tobias talking about what he read on the internet, where are the preppers?    Where are the people who are convinced on a normal day that the end is nigh?

 

It feels almost like the show was made by people who don't know very much about American culture at all.

Edited October 5, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Nashville]

Personally, I would've dearly loved to see Megyn O'Reilly or Wolf Blitzer or some other major news network anchor getting munched on-air during a live on-the-spot news report - but hey, maybe that's just me.

Not Robin Meade, though.

I want to munch her myself.

[RustbeltWriter]

There are tons of questions they could have tried to tackle even without high priced locations or special effects, since it became clear early on that the show was trying to lowball anything that smacked of spending money to do this right.  The mother show has been showing us car pileups or long lines of abandoned vehicles clogging up roadways for five years.  They've done a somewhat decent job of implying what happened with some of it, but why not finally show us?  How long did people sit in their cars waiting for traffic to clear up or help to come?  Did a herd come through?  Looters who dragged some of them out?  What is the tipping point where you decide to abandon the relative safety of your car and try to walk out?  Where do you go at that point?

 

Thinking about how hysterical our cable news is now often about nothing, I wanted to see TV hosts ranting about government coverups and trying to blame the lack of an organized response on the opposing political party while local agencies slowly come undone.  Video clips of people being eaten looped over and over while anchors try gamely to come up with something to say about it.  A Pat Robertson figure ranting about the coming wrath of God instead of some half-assed Bible verse in toilet paper stuck in a fence.  Other than a scene or two of Tobias talking about what he read on the internet, where are the preppers?    Where are the people who are convinced on a normal day that the end is nigh?

 

It feels almost like the show was made by people who don't know very much about American culture at all.

 

I completely agree. I think the creators became too caught up in characters that the audience never really became invested in. All of the scenarios you mentioned could have been shown and not detracted from the Clark/Manawa families at all. They could have cut out scenes like Travis jogging or Madison painting and shown us what was going on in the city.

 

The TV thing bugs me because we should have seen a debate where Travis and Madison talk about whether to stay in the secured neighborhood or leave because the authorities on TV were giving evacuation orders. Of course, no one turned on a TV so we were deprived of that.

 

I also wonder if, at the very end, authorities were instructiing the public to kill the walking dead and explaining how. By doing so they would alleviate the guilt and hesitation people like Travis were dealing with in a survival situation. I mean, at some point before the power goes off it has to become clear to the authorities that they are fighting for the survival of the species and not just poll numbers.

[Ronin Jackson]

I think this franchise has been too successful. The parent show has been so wildly successful despite AMCs meddling from the start that Kirkman and the AMC suits probably think they can smear their crap on a wall and people will find it entertaining. And unfortunately the ratings of these shows back them up.

 

FTWD has one thing motivating it creatively... it's a cash grab. And it's working. I've never thought the parent show was sterling... it has it's moments but they are few and far between... but people eat it up indiscriminately, so whose going to tell them they are doing anything wrong and be taken seriously?

 

It's probably pointless to mention ways in which FTWD could have improved upon or taken the premise in new and interesting directions from the parent show, since that's clearly not motivating AMC or Kirkman here. Still, you'd think at least they'd at least want to ape the the things that have been successful about the parent show. It almost seems as though they believe the weaknesses of the parent show are it's real strengths, judging by the direction of FTWD.

 

Here's some of the good things about TWD the creators of the spinoff has decided isn't part of the franchises formula for success.

 

Atmosphere-- This may not be a good thing to highlight since it was really only the pilot of TWD that excelled in this area, but it was the introduction of television audiences to this franchise, and I think it was a big part of the reason people were hooked from that first episode on. The pilot created a world you believed existed beyond the screen's frame. As the show has gone on it has been less and less successful at creating this sense as tangible world building hasn't been a focus, and that has defintely not been the case in FTWD, where all the rules of the fictional universe seem to revolve and change based on what is happening on the screen.

 

Zombies!-- I don't know what everyone else thinks, but I'm pretty sure zombies are a pretty crucial part of TWD's formula. So much so that the show is shot on unusually shot Super 16mm film, because the zombie makeup effects look much better than it does in digital. FTWD is shot in digital, which granted, almost all television shows are shot on these days, but it's clearly created an issue where they cannot use the same kind of effects for the zombies. The result? They use fewer zombies. A lot fewer. And I'm sure they've justified this by saying that TWD's success is really about the characters. As if people would tune in in droves to watch a show about Daryl going raccoon hunting every weak, as opposed to say, fighting zombies. Right. If zombies look better on Super 16mm and that's been key to the success of the parent show, why not emulate that?

 

Characters-- Okay, this is an overrated aspect of the parent show IMO, but it's undeniably part of the mainstream appeal. People are into Rick, Daryl, Michonne, etc. There's probably more action figure appeal here than great character appeal, but they are well performed by the actors. I don't think people will be rushing out to buy a Travis Manawa action figure. I don't want to say this is a flaw, but at the very least, he should have been made an interesting fully realized character. Fans would apparently revolt if Daryl ever was killed off, which is more a reflection on the fanbase than it is about Daryl as a character. I seriously doubt anyone would care one way or the other if any of the characters on this show are killed off.

[NurseGiGi]

Ronin Jackson, what an excellent post and expresses my feelings exactly.  There are many problems with TWD and each season is always inconsistent.  However, those problems will never be fully addressed because, well, money, and I keep coming back because the things I love about it outweigh the things I don't like.

 

I wish some of the show runners would be held accountable for their lack of following up on the concept of Fear.  I would love to see a real interview with real questions instead of Chris Hardwick trying to gloss over just how much they missed the mark and disappointed their fans.

[ghoulina]

I think the characters are a big difference between these shows. I know everyone has their different opinions, but by the end of season 1 of TWD I was definitely rooting for CDB, even if they drove me crazy at times. There were plenty of characters I actually liked - Rick, Carl, Daryl, Glenn, T-Dog. I was one of the few who even liked Lori and Dale! Shane was unhinged, but I felt bad for him at times. These were complex characters who you could root for, even if you didn't really love them. 

 

By the end of those 6 episodes I felt like we already knew quite a bit about these characters. Amy and Andrea were the sisters who were far apart in age, trying to make up for lost time on their girls trip.They liked to fish with their dad, but had different relationships with him. Andrea was a fiesty attorney.  Dale was the widower who never had kids, and wanted to take these girls on kind of as his own. He was opinionated, but came from a good place. Shane and Rick had been friends since high school. It seemed like Rick was always kind of in Shane's shadow, Shane was the real lady's man. But then Rick was the one to get married and start a family. He was the one people naturally seemed to gravitate toward, and this contributed to the tension with them and Lori. 

 

Some of the other characters were less fleshed out - Carol was the abused wife, Daryl the redneck with chip on his shoulder, T-Dog the nice church going guy, Glenn the clever pizza driver - but you could FEEL that there was more to them. You wanted to know more. 

 

The FTWD characters. I know little and less about them. We don't really have any idea what Travis's relationship with Liza was like, why they broke it off, how Maddie truly feels about her. We really know little about Travis and Maddie's relationship either. How long have they even been together? I haven't a clue. They work at the school. Maddie's son is a junky. That's about all I know. And who the fuck is Alicia? The annoyed sister with a dead boyfriend? And Ofelia - how old is she supposed to be? Was she still living with her parents? I just feel like these are OUTLINES of characters, at best. 

 

Worse, I don't even want to know more. Because none of them are really likable. They're flat, boring, and some even nasty people. Daniel was the only one I found interesting and he screwed everything up by unleashing hell with those walkers. Dead to me. 

 

Another difference is, despite their disagreements, I felt a cohesiveness with CDB. They were a group! This group is made up of more family members than we've seen previously, and they just seemed like strangers passing in the night. 

 

I feel like it's bad writing, bad acting, just bad all around. I feel like TPTB are just riding the ratings wave and not putting much effort into the show at all. I do think that happens a bit here and there on the mother show, but I think there are still bright moments. And because of the history of the show, certain cast members are just not going to let that happen. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by ghoulina

[JBody]

Taken from the media thread:

 

"I don’t consider this show to be a prequel to The Walking Dead, because there will be a point where a certain episode of this show will line up with season 2 of The Walking Dead, and a certain episode of this show will line up with season 3 of The Walking Dead. So we will be progressing through time to the point that we do pass the initial days of the outbreak. But how fast it is that we get there? That’s just going to have to remain a mystery.” --Kirkman

 

Well GEE I wish I had read this interview beforehand, as I was under the impression it was a prequel.  Anyhow, does this make any sense to anyone?  We are in S3 of TWD already? 

 

According to the TWD wikia, the start of S2 is Day +65 and the start of S3 is Day +300 (approximate).  What kind of fuckery is Kirman up to here?  Or am I too stupid to understand what he's on about??  The whole thing is quite vexing.

[ghoulina]

I don't think he meant a certain episode of THIS season of FTWD. I think he just meant that, in general, if those show lasts, it will meet up with the timeline of the other show. He's basically saying it's not going to stay in the early days for long. Gee, as if we weren't already aware. 

 

I'd say for right now, though, FTWD is probably right about where things were when Rick woke up. Maybe a scooch earlier. 

[Haleth]

I don't think people will be rushing out to buy a Travis Manawa action figure.

 

Ha!  The thought of this made me laugh.  I think you meant inaction figure.

[rab01]

I'd say for right now, though, FTWD is probably right about where things were when Rick woke up. Maybe a scooch earlier. 

That's right, according to the post-finale interviews, they haven't hit the time when Rick wakes up yet and might not hit it by the end of next season.

[Bongo Fury]

That's right, according to the post-finale interviews, they haven't hit the time when Rick wakes up yet and might not hit it by the end of next season.

 

TWD wiki timeline says that Shane last visited Rick in the hospital on day 14 and Rick woke up in the hospital on day 59 (no way Rick could live 45 days without hydration, let alone food or meds).

 

They have S1 of FTWD ending on day 15.

 

But they are separate timelines so for now there is nothing to tie them together, but they should be close. Shane sees the evil army shooting doctors in the hospital when he is there, so east coast and west coast Cobalt seem to be occurring at a similar point in time.

[JBody]

Thanks Ghoulina, rab01 and Bongo Fury: the Voices of Reason.  That makes more sense.  Just goes to show my prejudice against anything Kirkman says!  Sorry, but it's been earned over five years....

[rab01]

TWD wiki timeline says that Shane last visited Rick in the hospital on day 14 and Rick woke up in the hospital on day 59 (no way Rick could live 45 days without hydration, let alone food or meds).

 

They have S1 of FTWD ending on day 15.

 

But they are separate timelines so for now there is nothing to tie them together, but they should be close. Shane sees the evil army shooting doctors in the hospital when he is there, so east coast and west coast Cobalt seem to be occurring at a similar point in time.

I don't think Cobalt has happened yet in FTWD.  There is some vaguely spoilery discussion about it with Erickson in this Hollywood Reporter Interview. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/fear-walking-dead-season-two-829585.  There is a bunch of other generically spoilery things in there but it also sounds like they haven't actually mapped out the season yet so everything is subject to change.

[peach]

I don't think Cobalt has happened yet in FTWD.  There is some vaguely spoilery discussion about it with Erickson in this Hollywood Reporter Interview. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/fear-walking-dead-season-two-829585.  There is a bunch of other generically spoilery things in there but it also sounds like they haven't actually mapped out the season yet so everything is subject to change.

 

IOW, they really are just making this shit up as they go along, and there's no cohesiveness, nor will there be.  This crapfest is riding entirely on the coattails of the original.  Without the source material TWD is built on, I feel like they're just in way over their heads now.  If this were a new series, it would never make it on the air with this half-assed approach.

[peach]

From the Hollywood Reporter interview:

Q: What's the biggest lesson you learned from season one and how it was received?

A: Being aware of pace. We purposely developed the show in a slower fashion than people are accustomed to.

 

Well,he didn't see Season 2 of TWD, then.  And I take back most of the bad things I ever said about that season, after watching this.  Slow pace on the farm still meant detailed debates about humanity and morality and responsibility and such.  Too much so, being the general complaint.  Slow pace in the magical LA safe zone has meant next to nothing.  Daniel has treated us to some melodrama about choosing to be the man with the knife, but that's it.  Travis is jogging, and Madison's painting and complaining, and Nick's floating in the pool and getting high.  Wow.