Neal Cassidy/Baelfire: He Catches Shadows with Coconuts?

[myril]

LOL

 

So, Baelfire could be translated to B-efore A-nyone E-lse L-oved F-earless, I-ntrovert, R-estless E-mma, right? And Neal could be N-eat E-ejit A-bandoned L-over. A life story or characterization in a name.

 

(although Baelfire didn't really meet Emma, that was Neal, still somewhat in denial, that Bae and Neal are one and the same).

Edited October 26, 2014 by katusch

[KingOfHearts]

 

It would've been acceptable to me if Neal had been played as a character that truly believed he'd done something horrible to Emma, and wanted to be forgiven.

He had a conversation with Emma in either 2x21 or 2x22 where he was played like that. He deeply apologized to Emma. But it was all so much of a blur that it didn't have the impact it should have.

Edited November 30, 2014 by yeswedo
Removed spoiler tags

[Rumsy4]

He had a conversation with Emma in either 2x21 or 2x22 where he was played like that. He deeply apologized to Emma. But it was all so much of a blur that it didn't have the impact it should have.

 

Yeah. He said he regretted letting August talk him into leaving Emma, and that he was sorry for "everything". It certainly didn't seem enough to wipe everything away. 

Edited November 30, 2014 by yeswedo
Removed spoiler tags

[Camera One]

I'm just moving this part of my post to this thread.

 

As for his apology, it was too little, and too late. They could have explained his reactions in this episode as shock that his father finally caught up to him. They could have worked in his feelings of regret and wanting to make it up to Emma in the next few episodes. They could have shown him considering going to Storybrooke but losing his nerve or for some other reason.  But the writers clearly had no interest in exploring that. They promptly ignored him after "Manhattan" and he just popped back up at the end of the season so the writers could do a contrived cliffhanger ending, and then they strung him along for most of Season 3 before ultimately killing him off. I was really against MRJ at the beginning, but I think he could have pulled it off eventually if the writers were willing and actually wanting to develop his character and a redemption story.

 

Yeah. He said he regretted letting August talk him into leaving Emma, and that he was sorry for "everything". It certainly didn't seem enough to wipe everything away.

 

I did think MRJ did a good job in sounding sincere in that scene.  

[Mari]

I'm just moving this part of my post to this thread.

 

As for his apology, it was too little, and too late. They could have explained his reactions in this episode as shock that his father finally caught up to him. They could have worked in his feelings of regret and wanting to make it up to Emma in the next few episodes. They could have shown him considering going to Storybrooke but losing his nerve or for some other reason.  But the writers clearly had no interest in exploring that. They promptly ignored him after "Manhattan" and he just popped back up at the end of the season so the writers could do a contrived cliffhanger ending, and then they strung him along for most of Season 3 before ultimately killing him off. I was really against MRJ at the beginning, but I think he could have pulled it off eventually if the writers were willing and actually wanting to develop his character and a redemption story.

 

 

 

 

I did think MRJ did a good job in sounding sincere in that scene.  

Yes.  IF they had done any of this, the character would have been a much more viable love interest, and seemed far more connected to the Baelfire who fiercely loved his father but hated the Dark One. 

 

For the most part, I think the actor did a good job with what he was given.   But what he was given didn't make him a character that seemed particularly interested in or concerned about Emma; in fact, the first episode I really thought the characters connected was his last episode.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I had no problem buying his concern for and interest in Henry, and while Neal didn't have nearly enough scenes with Rumple, the scenes Carlyle and MRJ shared I usually bought.

 

I was even okay with much of his performance in the Neverland arc, apart from whenever they tried to push the love triangle crap, simply because while I could believe Neal liked Emma well enough, I couldn't believe he actually loved her or took her very seriously.

[KingOfHearts]

I believe if they would have just terminated Swanfire completely, and just let him be Henry's father and Emma's "this person", he could have been a decent character on the show if he wasn't killed off. His stuff in 3B Storybrooke shortly before he died wasn't very bad at all. Granted a character is usually likable right before their untimely death, but I feel like the writing was what led to his doom. He didn't get any interesting storylines, leaving him bland and dead weight. His leave was necessary because of that, but unnecessary in the long run, imo.

 

(They should have explored his relationship with Rumple, Hook and Henry instead of that stupid love triangle.)

Edited November 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[wingster55]

I believe if they would have just terminated Swanfire completely, and just let him be Henry's father and Emma's "this person", he could have been a decent character on the show if he wasn't killed off.

 

I would agree. I think he had a role in the show besides (Emma's) love interest which actually puts him above Hook and even Charming a lot of the time. Killing him off just because Hook/Emma was the more popular pairing was a disservice to the character and actor. 

[Rumsy4]

They killed off Neal because they simply weren't interested in writing for him, and they also wanted Rumple to go all bad again. As long as Neal was alive and reunited with his father, he acted as a sort of leash, and kept him in check. I think this would have been really powerful if they had taken the time to give Neal and Rumple scenes together in S3. Instead, they alternately stuck either character in literal cages, and had Neal act as a poinless deadweight to the development of Hook/Emma, while having Rumple cry over a doll or waste time with Lacey in S2.

[RadioGirl27]

Why do people still think they killed Neal off because of Captain Swan? Really, the supposed love triangle was dead even before it was born.

They killed off Neal because they simply weren't interested in writing for him, and they also wanted Rumple to go all bad again. As long as Neal was alive and reunited with his father, he acted as a sort of leash, and kept him in check. I think this would have been really powerful if they had taken the time to give Neal and Rumple scenes together in S3. Instead, they alternately stuck either character in literal cages, and had Neal act as a poinless deadweight to the development of Hook/Emma, while having Rumple cry over a doll or waste time with Lacey in S2.

Exactly, they killed Neal so Rumple could go bad again, and this half season is the proof of it. All the storyline with Rumple, Hook, the dagger and the hat would have been impossible with Neal alive.

Neal was, since the beginnig, just a plot device and not an actual character.

[wingster55]

Why do people still think they killed Neal off because of Captain Swan?

 

Because that was the primary focus of his screentime? (His relationship with Emma)

From the Miller's Daughter to the s2 finale, Rumple and Neal had 0 scenes together. In s3 they didn't have much either.

[KingOfHearts]

 

From the Miller's Daughter to the s2 finale, Rumple and Neal had 0 scenes together. In s3 they didn't have much either.

Yeah. They had Nasty Habits (gag), and that was about it.

 

 

They killed off Neal because they simply weren't interested in writing for him, and they also wanted Rumple to go all bad again. As long as Neal was alive and reunited with his father, he acted as a sort of leash, and kept him in check.

I don't think his death had the profound effect on Rumple as it should have. Bae was Rumple's whole point of living for centuries, and in a moment he was gone. The house of cards should have toppled far more, if you ask me. Belle is really not enough to keep Rumple going. She'll never have the level of importance as Bae had. She's a terrible leash.

Edited November 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

Captain Swan could have still happened (WAS happening, TBH) with Neal alive. Evil!Rumple, however... it would have made no sense for him to go all power crazy with Neal there. And Neal would have had to either be as oblivious to it as Belle (and he's never been about Rumple's machinations) or, IDK... approve for some reason?

Rumple has never been as LOOK AT MY PAIN as Regina. He's not going to rip his own heart out and curse himself to sleep or whatever. But he definitely went off the deep end in a way he wouldn't have with Bae.

Not that these writers actually care about realistic character actions. Truth is, Neal was a boring character, they were bored with him, so he died.

[Curio]

Captain Swan could have still happened (WAS happening, TBH) with Neal alive. Evil!Rumple, however... it would have made no sense for him to go all power crazy with Neal there.

 

I actually thought it would have been really interesting if Neal fell into the same dark path as his father during 3B. Instead of the weird Rumple revival where he and Neal shared a body temporarily (seriously, what the hell was that about?), the punishment for Neal using the key to resurrect Rumple should have meant Neal became the Dark One. It would've been ironic that Neal became the thing he hated most about his father, but only did it in a desperate attempt to get back to Emma and Henry. There could've also been a parallel between Milah choosing Hook over Rumple and Emma choosing Hook over Neal if they wanted to keep going with that love triangle.

 

At the end of Season 3B, Neal would recognize that he was becoming the exact same monster as his father once was and would beg his father to take back the Dark One title. Rumple could then take back the role of the Dark One from Neal, but in the process Neal would have to die; so instead of watching his son go evil, Rumple has to take his life. We'd ultimately end with the same result: a dead Neal and a Rumple with Dark One powers again and crazy guilt for having to end his son's life because of a curse Rumple could never let go of for hundreds of years. Something like that would have been a better set up for Rumple's I-don't-give-a-crap behavior during most of 4A and his new thirst for letting go of the Dark One title for good while still maintaining his powers.

 

Honestly, there are dozens of scenarios where they could have done Neal's death better justice than what was actually on screen. But again, that means the writers actually had to care about his character to begin with.

[wingster55]

Problem with saying Neal's death is the cause of Rumple's regression..is that Rumple though Bae was dead before and didn't regress as much. 

[Rumsy4]

Problem with saying Neal's death is the cause of Rumple's regression..is that Rumple though Bae was dead before and didn't regress as much. 

 

When he thought Neal had died, he was ready to die with the town (and incidentally, let Belle die as well). Then he went to Neverland to honor Baelfire's memory (and murdered Tamara there). Finally, he got the courage to sacrifice himself to save his son and Belle from Pan. But what did that get him? Neal brought him back from the vault, died to pay the price, and he himself ended up being Zelena's slave for a whole year. His centuries-old quest to find his son wasn't entirely pointless (he reconciled with him), but his own sacrifices to save Neal's life were. One can see why Rumple is over trying to even pretend that he is a good person when it had cost him his son's life, and his own freedom. Neal was able to keep him under control as long as he was alive (though who knows how long that would have lasted), but Belle cannot, because she is too blind to his character, and his changes never ran deep. It was always about reconciliation with Bae--it was never about doing the right thing for its own sake.

 

Honestly, there are dozens of scenarios where they could have done Neal's death better justice than what was actually on screen. But again, that means the writers actually had to care about his character to begin with.

 

I was so sure Zelena had forced Rumple to cast the Dark Curse using Neal's heart. Now that would have been a messed up twist. It would have been way better that have Snowing cast the Dark Curse, and it would be a perfect reason as to why Rumple would have regressed into being full-on Dark One again.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

I was so sure Zelena had forced Rumple to cast the Dark Curse using Neal's heart. Now that would have been a messed up twist. It would have been way better that have Snowing cast the Dark Curse, and it would be a perfect reason as to why Rumple would have regressed into being full-on Dark One again.

 

I personally loved that theory. My mind just turns like a gear every time I think about how 3B should have happened. I would have liked to see Neal go down a road of darkness like his father on a much more gradual slope. His snap decision in Quiet Minds just reaffirmed Zelena's "dumber than a box of hair" comment.

 

(I seriously need to write a fanfic on the way 3B could have gone.)

Edited November 30, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[scarynikki12]

I definitely agree that 3B would have been way better if Rumpel had cast the Curse and been forced to use Neal's heart.  It would have been a way to write out Neal while serving the story, demonstrated just how scary Zelena was (versus how scary she was supposed to be), and set Rumpel up for going full on evil starting this season.  

 

ETA: I forgot the real reason I started this post.  I remember way back when the season 2 premiere first aired, one of the lesser theories about who the character would end up being was the White Rabbit.  I think the show would have been well served to have something like this happen instead of making him Bae.  MRJ is a good actor, one of the best parts of the first season of True Blood actually, but he was completely miscast as adult Bae.  Had he be cast as the White Rabbit or another character from the Disney vault he probably would have fit in just fine.  By making him adult Bae the show instantly set us up to compare the two actors and their versions of the character and it backfired.  We'd had an entire season to get to know child Bae and establish a relationship with him and then we're suddenly presented with Neal who, before the Bae reveal, was shown to betray the main character of the entire show in a way that would be a deal breaker to most in the same scenario in real life.  That's a really big obstacle for the show to overcome and they couldn't do it.  It is a shame and complete waste of what they were trying to do.  They'd have been better served to have the actors who play young Bae and young Emma in those scenes in Tallahassee, letting the audience in on the real secret of Henry's parentage (they could keep calling him Neal if they really wanted to), and then find the right actor who could embody an adult Bae that is a reflection of young Bae instead of a contradiction.  I would have liked to see what Dylan Schmid could do with those flashback scenes.  At the very least there wouldn't be that creepy old man vibe that MRJ (inadvertently) gave off.

[Serena]

I was so sure Zelena had forced Rumple to cast the Dark Curse using Neal's heart. Now that would have been a messed up twist. It would have been way better that have Snowing cast the Dark Curse, and it would be a perfect reason as to why Rumple would have regressed into being full-on Dark One again.

It makes me crazy that it wasn't what happened. I felt like it was a great twist that was just... RIGHT THERE. Obvious.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Here! Here! Loathed what they evolved the awesome young Bae into.

It helps when I look at Bae and Neal as two different people. It's almost as if Bae died in Neverland and Neal is a reincarnation. 

Oh wait, that's the 5B shocking reveal, isn't it?

Bae was basically Rumple's core character goal and the connection to Neverland. Neal's role was to fill in the part of Henry's father while also making Emma's past as tragic as possible. I rewatched Tallahassee recently and I realized the writers needed a reason to land Emma in prison in order to follow-up on background from S1. After that and the *shocking* reveal that he was Bae, A&E were through with him.

 

I really liked the idea of someone playing it straight against all these fairy tale characters. Emma used to be that person, but in S2 she became very accepting of her heritage. Then Neal comes along to bring some new cynicism to the Hope Commission, but he gets lost in all the random plots. After he died, Emma lost her real-world buddy and Rumple lost his original drive.

Edited January 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The idea of Neal is a good one, but as is so often the case on this show, he was poorly executed. He, of all the characters, had a foot firmly in each world. He spent the first 14-15 years of his life in the Enchanted Forest, then a century or so in Neverland, but then grew to adulthood in modern America -- the real modern America, in the World Without Magic, rather than in Storybrooke. His memories and knowledge of our world came from personal experience, not a curse. So he was very much a fairy tale persona, with that kind of experience, and by the time he was an adult, he was a real modern American.

 

They missed a huge opportunity in not following him after his arrival in Neverland -- his relationships with Pan, the Lost Boys, Tink, and Hook. Was that where the change in him started, taking him from awesome Bae to sucky Neal? Did he get cynical and jaded and so focused on his own survival that he became selfish? Was being around people like Pan and Hook a bad influence on him? Was that where he learned to be a thief? Or was he still the idealistic fairy tale person when he arrived in modern America, and it was his struggle to survive that made him the person he became? Did he have a Fagin-type figure who helped him establish a false identity and taught him to be a thief? How did he react to a world with televisions and cars? What about seeing the film and storybook versions of people he actually knew? How did he learn to adapt?

 

And then his relationship with his father was so twisted and complex, but they didn't bother to address it at all other than a little grumping and some magic wand waving to make it all better. They never touched on their issues, including the fact that the way Rumple went about finding him was exhibit number one for the reason he wanted to leave, since it proved Rumple hadn't learned anything. Not to mention what he thought about the fact that his father murdered his mother. And what about his relationship with Hook and the fact that they spent a century together in Neverland, so that Rumple's oldest enemy was one of his son's closest friends (not that they were necessarily great friends, but it doesn't look like Neal had a lot of friends, so that automatically puts Hook, with whom he seems to have been at least cordial, high on the list).

[Souris]

Bae: Awesome. Neal: Total douchecanoe.

[Rumsy4]

 

Adam and Eddy and I had long discussions about what I would have said to August during that time, things like, “I’ll go to jail—let me go to jail for Emma!” But ultimately that’s a false economy, because although that would separate the two, she still wouldn’t accomplish her destiny because she didn’t know about magic. So they said, “You need to break her heart so she can later come around and realize that magic does exist. She can defeat the curse.” If I’d gone to prison, she probably would have just waited for Neal to get out. So there was a lot of jumping on the grenade there for the greater good. (X)

 

What A&E gave MRJ was their out-of-story reason for Emma to be broken by her past when she came to Storybrooke. In-story, Neal was obviously not aware of the dramatic value of his betrayal on a meta level. He was just a coward who didn't want to face his father. He didn't jump on a grenade. He pushed Emma onto a landmine and took off. However, MRJ's headcanon does seem to have painted Neal's motives in a sacrificial light. The writing supports that idea because even in Neal's last episode, he insisted that he had no choice but to abandon Emma and betray her (and Emma agreed). So, I can see why MRJ thinks Neal had this "unconditional true love" for Emma. There is a complete disconnect between the writer's' conception of Neal and how the story was actually told. The writers don't seem to understand how sexist, selfish, and entitled Neal's behavior to Emma has been. Or they know, but just don't care becasue they prefer writing shallow stories rather than explore in-depth motivations for characters. 

[Camera One]

To me, that quote suggests that the actor had a problem with the whole setup, including Neal not stepping in and going to jail, and the A&E had to explain how they viewed it, which was what we ultimately saw.  It looks like in the actor's headcanon, he had to tell himself that seeing Emma go to jail was painful for Neal.  Even though they didn't show it at all in-show.  

[Serena]

Didn't MRJ also do/say something shady re: Neal and Emma's relationship? I mean "shady" in a good way, as in acknowledging that the true relationship was not as sanitized as they were pretending. I feel like I heard something about the SF S3 finale scene and a glove? Like, he took off his glove (Emma's glove?) in a way that was an homage to a movie and the relationship in that movie was skeevy? I know this sounds confusing, but I swear I remember reading something about it.

[mjgchick]

I don't blame MRJ if he feels he has to headcanon Neal not actually being the douche Adam and Eddy actually wrote him as. He wanted to play a good guy who did a heroic thing for the protagonist. Maybe if Neal did sacrifice his feelings for Emma by sending her to jail I might take it easy on him...nah he was a grown ass man who got with a teenager. That still happened and I wished the writers/media/fans would remember this even though they keep throwing back at Emma the fact she has a teenage pregnancy.

Edited April 9, 2016 by mjgchick

[Rumsy4]

Didn't MRJ also do/say something shady re: Neal and Emma's relationship? I mean "shady" in a good way, as in acknowledging that the true relationship was not as sanitized as they were pretending. I feel like I heard something about the SF S3 finale scene and a glove? Like, he took off his glove (Emma's glove?) in a way that was an homage to a movie and the relationship in that movie was skeevy? I know this sounds confusing, but I swear I remember reading something about it.

It was apparently an homage to a scene from On the Waterfront. Opinions differ as to the interpretation of that scene, but the girl in question is young and vulnerable, and Marlon Brando plays a boxer who is hiding some things about his past from her. MRJ could have been paralleling the fact that Neal was hiding his true identity from a young and vulnerable Emma.

I don't blame MRJ if he feels he has to headcanon Neal not actually being the douche Adam and Eddy actually wrote him as. He wanted to play a good guy who did a heroic thing for the protagonist. ...

The thing is, if MRJ was cast to play someone who betrayed a vulnerable young woman and broke her heart, the fact that MRJ wanted Neal to be noble is irrelevant to the Show. However, if A&E meant to write it that way, and that's the impression they gave MRJ, why have Neal as someone afraid to meet his father? Why make him complicit in sending Emma to prison? Why have him dismissive and condescending when they reconnected in Manhattan? That's where the disconnect comes in.

I can't help feeling that Neal turned out to be more popular than the writers expected (especially as they gave him a name that is reminiscent of a real life drifter and conman). MRJ has a down-to-earth charm, and Neal's history with his dad makes him a sympathetic character. Plus the narrative punished Emma for lying about Neal to Henry, and not telling Neal he had a son, while Neal was excused with the simple "he didn't know". So, the odds were stacked in his favor.

In spite of his unexpected popularity, A&E were simply not interested in writing for Neal. So, they decided to kill him off and rewrite the narrative to fit the idea that Neal was sacrificial and selfless all along. It's the opposite of eggnapping in a way. Emma gets thrown under the bus, while A&E try to placate Neal fans without putting in any actual effort to craft a decent story for him.

[YaddaYadda]

You know if the writers gave MRJ an idea of who Bae was as a child, I can see where the disconnect comes from, because Bae would have absolutely taken the fall for Emma. Bae is the same kid who sacrificed himself to the shadow so that Michael and John would remain safe. 

 

And there is a rather large disconnect between both characters, and since we have no idea what happened between the time Bae was taken off Hook's ship, to the time he arrived in the Land without Magic, and the subsequent years, then it's hard for me as a viewer to really understand anything more than Neal betrayed Emma because he was terrified of his father finding him, because he tried to put so much distance between him and all the magical nonsense...and if Pinocchio found him, then how long before his father did...

 

I never understood how we went from Bae to Neal, and it's not like the writers ever bothered to give us any kind of explanation, and I'm assuming they gave very little explanation to MRJ as well. 

 

It reminds of when Lana asked the writers why Regina hated Snow so much, and they didn't know what to say to her. 

 

I can see the actors having to build their own headcanon. 

 

Meanwhile, I do appreciate that while Neal apparently loved Emma unconditionally (which I personally never really saw, not even after he was rescued in the Echo Caves), that a person can have true love for someone, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are that person's true love in return. 

 

MRJ also put a lot of emphasis on the fact that Emma is the mother of his child, that does give people a special bond.

 

I would have been really annoyed if I were him. He went to promote his new show and got asked "what ifs" about Neal.

[Camera One]

However, if A&E meant to write it that way, and that's the impression they gave MRJ, why have Neal as someone afraid to meet his father? Why make him complicit in sending Emma to prison? Why have him dismissive and condescending when they reconnected in Manhattan? That's where the disconnect comes in.

 

The usual reasons.  A&E believe that this type of Jekyll and Hyde behavior makes characters complex and gives their writing depth.  Not realizing that no follow-through and abrupt flip-flops (with zero conciliation of how Bae could become Neal) results in incoherent characters.  The actor is not stupid.  Even within 2B, you'd think he expected some more stuff with Rumple, Emma and Henry.  But after Manhattan, he basically got to stand around in the background, before the writers went all soap opera and brought in The Other Woman.  I'm surprised he still wanted to stay on the show after Season 3 if he hadn't been written out, so that suggests he still saw some potential in the character.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

It looks like in the actor's headcanon, he had to tell himself that seeing Emma go to jail was painful for Neal.  Even though they didn't show it at all in-show.

 

 

He was just a coward who didn't want to face his father. He didn't jump on a grenade. He pushed Emma onto a landmine and took off. However, MRJ's headcanon does seem to have painted Neal's motives in a sacrificial light.

 

My feeling was that MRJ's take is isn't purely headcanon - it was the in-show narrative from "Tallahassee" on - so I dipped into the transcripts. 

 

Neal's conversations with August in "Tallahassee" actually does square with A&E's discussions with MRJ that leaving Emma in a catastrophic way was to break her so that she could later be rebuilt as a True Believer in Magic and break the Curse. It has nothing to do with wanting to avoid Rumpel, it's not something he does as a callous act to avoid his own discomfort, and it revolves around letting Emma go meet her destiny and find her family.

 

August: You love her. Good. That means you have to do right by her.

Neal: That’s all I’m trying to do.

August: Then leave her.

Neal: Never.

August: She has a destiny. And you? This life? You’re going to keep her from it. Okay? You believe in magic?

Neal: I take it you do.

August: So will you. Trust me. I’m going to show you something… Something that’s going to make you look at everything differently. And, when you see what I have in here, you’re going to listen. You’re going to believe every word I say.

 

A HUGE flaw is that A&E never bother to write that scene - a full scene where August makes an argument that convinces Neal (and the audience) that this is what Neal has to do to get Emma to meet her destiny. I think this, more than anything, is what MRJ is talking about when he's mentioned these discussions with The Brothers Dimm...that they never bothered to square the circle and explain what August's compelling argument was.  

 

In any case, in Offscreen-Portland, Neal does as August demands. He guilty about it, he's struggling with it, but August has him convinced it's for the greater good:

 

 

(Two months later, in Vancouver, Neal meets with August.)

August: Been a while. Where’d you go?

Neal: Tried to lose myself. It didn’t work. I want to talk to you about Emma.

August: I hope you’re not trying to reach out.

Neal: I just… I feel like… If… If I knew that she was okay, then I could move on. Is she?

August: She will be. She got eleven months.

Neal: That should be me! I should be doing that time.

August: No. We went over this. It’s good.

Neal: How’s it good?

August: It’s a minimum security place in Phoenix. And no, I am not going to tell you which one. She’ll get out of there, and she’ll be fine. You keep your promise and steer clear, and she can have a good life. She can do what she’s supposed to do.

Neal: And if I can’t be there for her, man, you got to promise me that you will be.

August: I promise.

Neal: Then you should do something for me. I was able to fence the watches. Don’t judge me. I’m giving it all to her. And the car – I got a clean VIN number for it, so it’s legit. I just… It’ll feel like I’m there with her, you know?

August: Money is not what she needs. Not for what’s ahead.

Neal: Can you just see that she gets it?

August: Sure.

Neal: And one more thing – if anything changes, and she does her job, this insanity ends, and she’s free…

August: I’ll send you a postcard.

 

They reinforce this premise in "Manhattan"

 

 

Emma: You left me… And let me go to prison, because Pinocchio told you to?

Neal: Emma…

Emma: I loved you.

Neal: I… I was, um… I was… I was trying to help you.

Emma: By letting me go to jail?

Neal: By getting you home.

Emma: Are you telling me, that us meeting was a coincidence? Because how the hell did that happen? If it wasn’t in your plan, or your father’s?

Neal: Think about it. He wanted you to break the curse. Us meeting – that could have stopped it. Maybe it was fate.

Emma: You believe in that?

Neal: You know, there’s not a ton about my father that I remember that doesn’t suck. But he used to tell me that there are no coincidences. Everything that happens, happens by design, and there’s nothing we can do about it. Forces greater than us conspire to make it happen. Fate, destiny, whatever you want to call it. The point is… Maybe we met for a reason. Maybe something good came from us being together.

 

 

And they deal (again) with Neal's ongoing guilt in "Second Star to the Right" - he wasn't trying to avoid Rumpel by not coming to find her when he knew the Curse was broken, he was fearful of her anger and his own guilt.

 

 

Neal: I wanted to go to jail for you.

Emma: Neal.

Neal: It kills me I let August talk me in letting you go.

Emma: I don't want to hear it.

Neal: Yeah, but I have to say it. I wanted to look for you. I just—I, I was too afraid.

Emma: Of what?

Neal: That you would never forgive me. 'Cause I never forgave myself. There hasn't been a day that's gone by that I don't regret having left you. I'm sorry, Emma, for everything.

Emma: Me too.

 

The ONLY time they deviate from this theme is in "Manhattan" when Neal's suddenly all: "We’re out in the open. I… I spent a lifetime running from that man. I’m not going to let him catch me." It's a plot point strictly for that episode: they need Neal to run for SHOCKING! REVEAL!! of Emma tackling him and making the Neal-Bae connection, they need Neal to come charging in to confront Rumpel later in the episode, But, as we can see in the bar scene from that episode quoted above, if Neal wanted to avoid his father forever, by the show's logic, he just would have stayed with Emma and kept her from Storybrooke.  Neal is understandably hurt and angry at Rumpel, but not fearful, and what little we learn about his life in the period between falling through the EF portal and finding him in NY, they never show that Bae/Neal was worried that his father would find him, and even imply that while he was in Neverland, he was hoping Rumpel would find him and bring him home. In any case, I don't think Neal trying to avoid Rumpel ever comes up again.

 

(They use this One Time Only tactic in 4b when Belle and "Hook" go to get the Dagger and Belle is suddenly all a-scared of Rumpel...but then, for the rest of the season, never mentions being afraid of him and never shows any hint of fear or attempt to avoid him when she's actually around him. It was purely meant to highlight the drama of her not realizing "Hook" was Rumpel and was never mentioned again.)

 

 

You know if the writers gave MRJ an idea of who Bae was as a child, I can see where the disconnect comes from, because Bae would have absolutely taken the fall for Emma. Bae is the same kid who sacrificed himself to the shadow so that Michael and John would remain safe.

 

Exactly. Bae is the kid who sacrifices to save someone else's' family. In "Second Star," he finds a family, stability, home. He gives himself to the Shadow so the Darlings won't lose their family. In "Tallahassee" he the chance of family, stability, home, with Emma. He gives that up so Emma can find her family and (not inconsequentially) free not the just the Charmings, but everyone in Storybrooke, from the Curse. Emma is hurt, but in the end, she ends up finding love and family with her son and her parents and a new community that values her. Neal remains mostly alone and dies (twice) after about 20 minutes of happiness. I think the hyper-focus on Emma's pain in the period after he leaves her blots out the fact that he accomplished a goal that was always central to Baefire as character: restoring families ripped apart by magic.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Amerilla

[Mari]

I know that's the dialogue--but, I understand why people think it was mostly because he was running away from Rumple, and the rest was him making excuses and justifying it to himself.

 

It just doesn't track for me that in order for her to go to Storybrooke and break the curse, they had to break up.  It seems like it would be easier to get her to go to Storybrooke if they didn't break up, and were still a couple.

 

He believed in magic.  He believed in curses.  He could slowly work on Emma, and try to open her up to possibilities.  At the appropriate time, August could tell Neal, and Neal could tell her that he'd heard something about his father being in this tiny, little town, and he'd like them to look into it and try to reconnect. 

 

Boom!  Emma is in Storybrooke at the appropriate time.  

[Camera One]

It seems like it would be easier to get her to go to Storybrooke if they didn't break up, and were still a couple.

 

That was the Writers' biggest mistake.  They stated there was no other way and expected us to believe it.  How many times on the show have they made it seem like there was only one way for something to happen, when we can come up with a hundred?

 

As Amerilla said, the key is they skipped August's compelling argument to Neal, so the impression is that Neal was way too easily convinced.  Though everything else about Neal seems to say he was stubborn as hell, so he shouldn't have believed August so easily.  If they wanted to show that something major had changed in Bae after being in Neverland, which made him jaded and way more selfish, they chose not to go into it, even in a half-season about Neverland.  

 

Time and time again, they refused to explore what made Bae/Neal "tick".  Look at "Nasty Habits".  I'm sure any of us could have written a way better flashback which would actually have been revealing and perhaps explanatory.  

Edited April 9, 2016 by Camera One

[Serena]

In "Tallahassee" he the chance of family, stability, home, with Emma. He gives that up so Emma can find her family and (not inconsequentially) free not the just the Charmings, but everyone in Storybrooke, from the Curse.

 

 

This is the problem, though. He says it. August says it. However, there is nothing resembling what we on Earth like to call "logic" anywhere near this reasoning. WHY would Emma and Neal being together stop Emma from breaking the curse? One of the reasons it was so hard for her to break it was because Neal's betrayal and having to give up Henry made her so closed off. If they had stayed together, all Neal would have had to do was say "Hey boo, I planned a special trip for your birthday. It's a surprise!", bring them to Storybrooke, and then the first night, Emma would give Henry a good-night kiss and boom! curse over, the End.

 

WTF?

[Rumsy4]

There were two main principles at war here. On the one side was Neal's absolute dislike of magic and of meeting his father again. After being burnt by the dark magic of his father and Pan, and ~200 years in Neverland, who could blame him? On the other side was his affection/love for Emma, and his belief that he was the "best thing" that happened to Emma. As I see it, that left Neal with five options: 

 

1. Stay with Emma. At the appropriate time, take her to Storybrooke, and help her believe in magic and break the Curse. The most selfless and sacrificial choice, and the one would have been an act of unconditional love on Neal's part. He would be overcoming his fears and trauma to reunite Emma with her parents and save people who were cursed. Plus, he could have had a family of his own with her and their child.

 

2. Stay with Emma, but do nothing regarding the Curse. Let fate take its course, one way or the other. (Neal strongly believed in fate).

 

3. Stay with Emma, and actively prevent her from going to Storybrooke and break the curse. A selfish option, as he would be preventing Emma from being reunited with her parents, and abandoning a bunch of people to a cursed fate. IMO, this was what August was warning Neal against. They both knew Neal would never go for option 1 or option 2 becasue of his utter aversion to meeting his dad. There is no evidence to suggest that August was talking about fate. 

 

4. Break up with Emma. After all, it is understandable that Neal's hatred of his dad overcame his desire to be with Emma. This way, Neal wouldn't interfere with Emma's "destiny", but he would be able to continue hiding from his dad.

 

5. Break up with Emma in the worst way possible by setting her up to take the fall for his crime. Had Neal merely broken up with her (option 4), Emma might not have let him go easily (she only retrieved the watches to keep him from abandoning her and going to Canada). Even if Neal thought Emma would only get community service, it was still enough of a betrayal of trust to keep her from looking for him. 

 

To me, it boils down to this. Neal had every right to sacrifice his own chance of happiness so that Emma could be reunited with her family. Even if Neal truly believed that continuing his relationship with Emma would keep her from fulfilling her destiny, he had no right to make life-changing decisions on Emma's behalf. No matter how you cut it, two adult men deciding the fate of a 17 year old homeless girl is unpalatable to me. It is neither selfless not self-sacrificial. It is sacrificing someone else without their consent. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Back in 2B, I assumed that they'd reveal Emma needed to be sad, jaded and alone to be able to break the Curse.

 

I think the analogy the show was trying to use is when someone breaks up with someone else because they believe they are not good enough and they are holding the other person back.  Not that it was done well, but I think that was where they were going with it.

 

The Writers were assuming that #4 and 5 was not an option, because Emma would still try to find Neal.  Heck, she even went to Tallahassee after getting out of jail. 

 

August basically said if he chose #1 or #2, Emma wouldn't "fulfil her destiny".  No, we have no idea why not, given the scenario we have been shown.  It's not just making any decision, it was presented as a matter of possibly stopping destiny from happening.

 

What would the Apprentice have said to August?  How much of what August did was his own idea, and how much was what the Apprentice told him to do?

[Amerilla]

Part of the problem, too, is that in S2, they still sort of stuck with previously established backstories. They had Emma establish Neal's betrayal, her jailing, etc in S1, and they tried to make the story in S2 conform as much as possible to those points.

 

Today, they would have ignored that backstory if it didn't meet the needs of the moment.  

[Shanna Marie]

However, there is nothing resembling what we on Earth like to call "logic" anywhere near this reasoning. WHY would Emma and Neal being together stop Emma from breaking the curse? One of the reasons it was so hard for her to break it was because Neal's betrayal and having to give up Henry made her so closed off.

That's the problem. They keep telling us that the choice Neal made was the only choice, but they haven't shown us why that was the case, and we can think of dozens of other ways things could have gone that would even have worked better. That's why it's easy to believe that Neal made the choice he did so he could avoid his father, since the easier and probably even more effective choices required him to stay with Emma and face his own past. The difference between the various choices looks like what was best for Neal that would still allow Emma to fulfill her destiny, not what was best for Emma that would allow her to fulfill her destiny. Because it was yet another case of Offscreenville and we didn't hear the explanation or see any evidence that the choice Neal made was literally the only one, the logic points to Neal making a choice based on his own fears.

[KingOfHearts]

 

That's the problem. They keep telling us that the choice Neal made was the only choice, but they haven't shown us why that was the case, and we can think of dozens of other ways things could have gone that would even have worked better.

Oh gosh these writers. They did the opposite with Snow killing Cora. There were supposedly other ways of dealing with the problem, but the show never bothered explaining it. With Neal, there were other options and the show doesn't tell us why only one would work.

 

 

Because it was yet another case of Offscreenville and we didn't hear the explanation or see any evidence that the choice Neal made was literally the only one, the logic points to Neal making a choice based on his own fears.

We rarely got Neal POV on anything. Baelfire's yes, but not Neal. He was always tossed around wherever the plot needed him to go, whether it be resurrecting Rumple, having an evil fiance, or getting put into a love triangle with a dashing pirate. We never knew exactly what was going on in his head because the writers themselves didn't know either. That has a lot to do with the lack of information regarding his transformation from Baelfire to Neal Cassidy. 

 

A&E didn't care about him. So they killed him off. They liked the idea, just not the implications. That's why whenever we get a tribute scene to him posthumously, it's always idealistic and detached from the real character.

Edited April 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[mjgchick]

But why have Neal say "If I knew who you were, I'd never be with you." In Tallahassee if what he was doing what was best for Emma to break the curse? Oh yeah and acted like an ass to her when it came to Henry? Stuff like that just makes me side eye this notion that he loved her unconditionally.

[Camera One]

Yeah, that line made him seem like a jerk.  He said, "If I had, I wouldn’t have gone near you.".  In the gist of the conversation, though, I wonder if he meant that he wouldn't have gone near Emma because it would interfere with her destiny to break the Curse.  If he hadn't gone near Emma, then Emma wouldn't have had to go to jail.  As for how he acted when he first found out about Henry... well, he first found out about Henry.  I think he calmed down and saw reason reasonably quickly.

[Souris]

The writers and MRJ can spin and retcon Neal's feelings and actions however they want into something noble and "unconditional," but it was NEVER borne out onscreen that way.

[Camera One]

Very little of what they put onscreen is.  And they NEVER see it.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Camera One

[Serena]

Yeah, that line made him seem like a jerk.  He said, "If I had, I wouldn’t have gone near you.".  In the gist of the conversation, though, I wonder if he meant that he wouldn't have gone near Emma because it would interfere with her destiny to break the Curse.  If he hadn't gone near Emma, then Emma wouldn't have had to go to jail.  As for how he acted when he first found out about Henry... well, he first found out about Henry.  I think he calmed down and saw reason reasonably quickly.

And thus we get back to the point of WHY would them being together interfere with the breaking of the curse? If it's destiny, it's destiny, and nothing anyone can do could change it.

But if we are to believe it, that somehow if they were together there was a possibility she wouldn't break the curse - he still put a bunch of strangers' well-being above Emma's without consulting her (BTW, I do not believe he did this). Emma could have had an happy, fullfilled life, died in her bed surrounded by grandchildren at 95, and the curse would have broken then (the SB people would have been young still, so no difference to them!). Or at 28, destiny would have compelled her to go to Storybrooke and break the curse then. Who knows? Of course, there was also the third option: Emma never goes to jail, she and Neal stay together for a couple of years, then the stress of raising a child or whatever breaks them up, they still cordially co-parent... but even that is a better option than what Emma got!

[tri4335]

The writers and MRJ can spin and retcon Neal's feelings and actions however they want into something noble and "unconditional," but it was NEVER borne out onscreen that way.

 

 

Very little of what they put onscreen is.  And they NEVER see it.

 

Both of you are so right. When I read things like this I have to wonder if they ever watch their end product!  I've posted before that it wasn't the fact that he left Emma that did it in for me but the dismissive way he responded to Emma after they reconnected and how they had him put her down in front of Henry.  It makes me wonder was that MJR's acting choice or was it a direction given by the director or writers...and this character is not alone in showing us one thing on the screen and then having the writers/actors claim different motives after the fact. 

[KingOfHearts]

There were a thousand other options for handling Neal, yet A&E somehow picked one of the worst. He went from an aspiring hero, to a total jerk, then back to hero with no stops between. It's like Eva going from a snob to Founder of the Hope Commission or Regina's flip-flopping without rhyme or reason. Hey, writers - character development requires development to work. You can't just go from A to C then back to A again without any B.

Edited April 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Bringing this discussion from the fandom thread. I think lack of proper planning and foresight is one of the main reasons for Neal's premature exit from the Show. A&E probably started with "wouldn't it be cool if Rumplestiltskin's son was Emma's baby daddy", and went from there. However, many of their pet themes interfered with keeping Neal long-term on the Show.

One reason was the popularity of Rumbelle. The writers want to keep Rumple a villain, but he needs a leash to keep him just this side of unredeemable. Belle as a character seems more amenable to be jerked around by Rumple's machinations than Neal ever was. Rumbelle has been retreading the same drama for the past three seasons now. The writers don't even spend time writing new conflict for the pair. So, exeunt Neal.

I also agree that Regina was another big reason. One of the main themes of the Show has been the conflict and eventual friendship between Regina and Emma. Having Neal, the bio-dad, also competing for Henry's time and attention would have shifted the balance against Regina. And lbr, Regina is the writers' fav, and they wouldn't want that. 

The name Neal Cassidy (after real time conman Neal Cassady), the lack of screen test with JMo, Neal having clearly moved on from Emma, MRJ's role as a jerk in True Blood, etc., makes me think Neal was never considered as a serious romantic interest for Emma in the present day. I know we all like to complain that Charming never punched Neal. That's actually a sign how little the writers were interested in developing him (compare that with Hook). A&E didn't expect how popular Neal would become with some parts of the fandom, but they were just not interested in writing good material for him. So they backpedaled and retroactively turned him into a saint becasue they like MRJ too much. At least, that's my take on it. But who knows what really happened. Half the decisions the writers make are based on their ADD style of plotting and nothing more than that, I think. They may have started with grand ideas for Neal, but it just never took off, and they got interested in other things.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

I think one of the things that sidelined Neal and MRJ was Colin breaking his leg. MRJ said they were set to film their first scenes together when that happened, and I'm assuming there was going to be something more with those two during season 2. Whatever storyline they were starting was rewritten. I sort of wonder if Tamara wasn't a result of that, but I wasn't following the spoilers back then, so I don't know.

I also think that maybe they weren't planning on keeping Neal past season 2, and that the conditions changed when they had to do rewrites.

There's the whole Henry has now 3 parents which I saw argued here and there, like there wasn't room for a 3rd one which I completely disagree with. But they were also about to start a story where Henry decided that Regina was awesome, and nothing horrible ever happened between them.

I think they just mishandled the situation. I'm pretty sure Neal himself never got an actual backstory. I don't count Baelfire because that gives me zero information on the adult he became, or Tallahassee since that was mainly Emma's backstory. That tells me how little interest they showed in Neal, which is too bad because the character (or Baelfire) is the reason the show, and these other characters exist in the first place.

[Camera One]

Even if they had planned some scenes between Neal and Hook in 2B, knowing these writers, it would just have been a few scenes here or there.  There was a blatant disinterest in using Neal in any way once he arrived in Storybrooke.  In many ways, Neal as a character has way more potential for storylines than someone like Robin Hood.  He would have competed with Regina for Henry's attentions.  There was of course his relationship with Rumple, which was pushed aside as he dealt with Lacey.  There was all the unresolved stuff with Emma, which did not require a third wheel Tamara, but it was probably the other way around in that they came up with Tamara first and then used Neal to connect her to Storybrooke (Surprise! she spilled coffee on Neal!  Surprise!  She knew August.  Surprise!  She was Greg's boyfriend).  Then, there was Neal and Henry's relationship, which was offscreen babysitting.  None of that was explored.

Even in 3A, knowing that Neal was going to die in 3B, they still didn't use Neal in any meaningful way.  He was now basically a third wheel for the Emma/Hook bond they were building.  Heck, they didn't even have Neal talk to real Henry once before he died.  

[profdanglais]

There was a lot of potential for Neal, and I'm still sad that it didn't pan out. Early on, he seemed intriguing, like when he revealed he could sail the Jolly Roger. Seeing him interact with Hook and Rumple and the conflict amongst the three of them could've been really interesting. The problem with the character for me is that there was just too much of a disconnect between Baelfire and Neal. I know a lot of time passed, etc, but I just cannot get my mind to accept that the boy who went through a portal alone to a strange land, flew off with a shadow to protect his new family, and attacked Hook with his junior sword to avenge his mother could ever turn into a petty thief who would allow his pregnant girlfriend to go to jail for his crime, regardless of the circumstances. Bae was gallant, Neal was a cowardly sleaze. There's just no way they could be the same person, and without that backstory, Neal is just not interesting. Add to that the complete lack of chemistry with Emma or meaningful scenes with Rumple, and the character is just pointless. 

Honestly, I think with a different actor it might have worked better. Nothing personal against MRJ, I've never seen him in anything else so have no opinion of him one way or the other, I just think he was miscast here. 

[Rumsy4]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Heck, they didn't even have Neal talk to real Henry once before he died.  

That was really bad. The heartfelt speech he thought he gave to Henry when they got back from Neverland was actually given to Pan. Then, he died without either him or Henry regaining their memories. 

A Regina/Neal pairing may actually have been an interesting way to take his character. He would have been more ready to call her out on her shit than Robin has ever been in three seasons. But I don't know if MRJ would have had any chemistry with Lana. I do think MRJ was miscast as Nealfire. 

[Shanna Marie]

Really, the Neverland arc should have been focused more on Neal. He was an actual Lost Boy, and they could have done some interesting flashbacks showing his time in Neverland, what happened when he met Pan, how he got away from Pan to live on his own, what eventually happened between him and Hook, since it seems like they eventually became friends. Since getting away from Neverland using what he did before was an actual plot point, we should have seen his initial escape from Neverland and arrival in modern America. That could have given us some transition between Bae and Neal. Did he start becoming a jaded, selfish jerk in his years in Neverland, or was that his survival mechanism upon coming to our world and having to fend for himself?