Figure Skating

[SeanC]

On 4/1/2019 at 3:00 PM, Darknight said:

I don't understand why an 8 or 10 yo is jumping quads or why a 13yo needs 5 quads.  What's the point? 

I'm not sure where you get 8-year-old, but in any event, figure skating is an early-adopter sport.  The earlier you learn a jump and can develop the correct muscle memory, the better your odds are of being able to retain and perfect it -- it's harder and harder to learn jumps the older you get.

Now, boys' and girls' cases are different in this regard, since with the latter it's an open question to what extent girls can do quads past puberty -- Miki Ando is the only person to do a quad as a junior who has tried as a senior, and she never managed it; jury's out on the rest.  Though Mie Hamada seems to think she can make it work with Rika, so again, TBD.

Quote

 Seriously they're kids with growing bodies. Does anyone care?

Yes?

Well, it's debatable how much Eteri cares about that, which is a longstanding concern people have about her very intensive early training methods.  But other coaches certainly do, so there's really no basis for you to be constantly fretting about the adults.  Brian Orser, Lee Barkell, Mie Hamada, Alysa's coaches and parent, etc., none have given any basis to think they don't care about their skaters' health (or, indeed, their child's health).  Indeed, speaking purely in the case of Gogolev, his coaches have specifically talked about managing his training with such considerations in mind.

Edited April 4, 2019 by SeanC

[Darknight]

46 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I'm not sure where you get 8-year-old, but in any event, figure skating is an early-adopter sport.  The earlier you learn a jump and can develop the correct muscle memory, the better your odds are of being able to retain and perfect it -- it's harder and harder to learn jumps the older you get.

Now, boys' and girls' cases are different in this regard, since with the latter it's an open question to what extent girls can do quads past puberty -- Miki Ando is the only person to do a quad as a junior who has tried as a senior, and she never managed it; jury's out on the rest.  Though Mie Hamada seems to think she can make it work with Rika, so again, TBD.

Yes?

Well, it's debatable how much Eteri cares about that, which is a longstanding concern people have about her very intensive early training methods.  But other coaches certainly do, so there's really no basis for you to be constantly fretting about the adults.  Brian Orser, Lee Barkell, Mie Hamada, Alysa's coaches and parent, etc., none have given any basis to think they don't care about their skaters' health (or, indeed, their child's health).  Indeed, speaking purely in the case of Gogolev, his coaches have specifically talked about managing his training with such considerations in mind.

The main issue is these young kids don't need to learn quads at young ages. Why? I also don't necessarily believe the earlier the better. If anything puberty changes things and many skaters have to rework their technique anyway to get use to their new bodies. Especially for girls. There is no need for an 8yo, 11yo, 13yo to jump all of these crazy jumps. Yes, an 8yo is learning quads and 3a. That's why I brought it up. An 10yo is jumping quads Why? She can't even compete as a junior yet. Will she fake her age and pretend to be a senior next season? For what reason? Especially with poor technique. These kids are ruining their bodies before they even make it into seniors and before their bodies are done growing. Nathan wasn't jumping all of these quads at 13 or 11. Mirai learned her 3a as a grown adult. So I don't believe that the younger they are the better the jumps will be or the younger they are they must learn jump after jump and hope it sticks when they go through puberty. 

Stephen and Alyssa's coaches I actually have a huge issue with based on what I've read.  Especially Stephen, there is no reason why he needs to jump all of these quads at 13. I think  he actually left Brain this season. Alyssa  already had hip injuries and she couldn't even walk. Too much too soon. The adults and federations should be blamed and held responsible. I can't blame the kids here. They're only doing what adults tell them to do or not to do. This is when the adults need to say no and consider the child's health. Instead it's all about learning jumps at young ages to be the next big thing and to win medals. At what cost? 

On 4/2/2019 at 8:18 PM, HartofDixie said:

Rachel Parsons leaving skating due to eating disorder.

https://mobile.twitter.com/rae_sk8er/status/1113231977992413185

This is so sad. I hope she gets the help she needs

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, Darknight said:

The main issue is these young kids don't need to learn quads at young ages. Why? I also don't necessarily believe the earlier the better. If anything puberty changes things and many skaters have to rework their technique anyway to get use to their new bodies. Especially for girls. 

I explained why.  And whether or not you believe it, it’s the prevailing understanding.  You obviously need to make adjustments as you grow, but it’s much easier when you can already do it, assuming the fundamentals are there (which is also an issue with Eteri, since her technique is specifically geared toward the skater being small).

Quote

Mirai learned her 3a as a grown adult. 

And landed it a couple of times, total.  Hardly an example I'd cite to bolster that position.

In any event, nobody said it’s impossible, simply much harder.

Quote

Stephen and Alyssa's coaches I actually have a huge issue with based on what I've read.  Especially Stephen, there is no reason why he needs to jump all of these quads at 13. I think  he actually left Brain this season. Alyssa  already had hip injuries and she couldn't even walk. Too much too soon. The adults and federations should be blamed and held responsible. I can't blame the kids here. They're only doing what adults tell them to do or not to do. This is when the adults need to say no and consider the child's health. Instead it's all about learning jumps at young ages to be the next big thing and to win medals. At what cost? 

There is a reason, in fact, because it’s better to learn them earlier.  His training is carefully managed by his coaches (now coach, as he’s solely overseen by Barkell).

Injuries happen; it’s part of the sport.  Alysa is by all accounts in good health and there’s no indication her coaches aren’t managing her training appropriately.  There is plenty of precedent for training young skaters on the triple Axel without issue — Mao Asada, most obviously.

[HartofDixie]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2019/04/03/us-figure-skating-needs-immediate-change/3352261002/

Christine Brennan posted USFS comments: US Figure Skating comment tonight: ‘USFS met w/ SafeSport in its Denver office March 12 w/ a goal to learn about any factual scenarios that led to the Center’s public statements regarding USFS.’ USFS shared ‘its nearly 2 decades of work’ re: athlete safety. Dialogue is ‘ongoing.’

Edited April 4, 2019 by HartofDixie

[Mellowyellow]

Skaters seem to suffer injuries for multiple reasons not just doing quads.

Alena K jumps her normal triples and got injured before Junior Worlds. Zhenya was injured before the Olympics and she wasn't doing any quads as far as I know. 

Kaetlyn broke her leg in some freak accident skating around the rink didn't she?

Trusova, crazy quadster that she is, seems to be fine (knock on wood she'll remain fine).

I also think these kids are not like normal people. They've got big ambitions and dreams. They want to learn these crazy jumps and do everything they can to win which includes getting the advantage that comes with early training even if there is a risk. 

[Mellowyellow]

Quick question: Does anyone know much about Mie Hamada?

She seems to have done a fantastic job with Rika and Rika (imo) is an excellent jumper. I know Vincent also went to her for some jumps. 

Now the weird thing is the other day I read all this stuff about people claiming she's bad at teaching jumps and couldn't teach Marin Honda who went to Raf.

Seems so weird because Rika is so strong on jumps (amongst other things, Rika is the complete package for me) and is learning quads. 

[MaKaM]

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Skaters seem to suffer injuries for multiple reasons not just doing quads.

Alena K jumps her normal triples and got injured before Junior Worlds. Zhenya was injured before the Olympics and she wasn't doing any quads as far as I know. 

Kaetlyn broke her leg in some freak accident skating around the rink didn't she?

Trusova, crazy quadster that she is, seems to be fine (knock on wood she'll remain fine).

I also think these kids are not like normal people. They've got big ambitions and dreams. They want to learn these crazy jumps and do everything they can to win which includes getting the advantage that comes with early training even if there is a risk. 

I mean, kids want to fly like Superman too but it is up to the adults around them to make better decisions and safeguard their health. Kids do not have the developed mental capacity to know if their ambitions are possible or healthy.

[Mellowyellow]

16 minutes ago, MaKaM said:

I mean, kids want to fly like Superman too but it is up to the adults around them to make better decisions and safeguard their health. Kids do not have the developed mental capacity to know if their ambitions are possible or healthy.

I think flying (and shooting diamonds out of your hands which my little boy is obsessed with) is different from learning quads.

As the other poster pointed out there are benefits to learning early. I definitely think there is a problem with certain coaches but we don't really know for sure at this point where all these jumps will lead.

Maybe it'll be a trainwreck and the rules will be changed or maybe they'll all be doing quads past their teens. We are entering a new era for the sport.

I think either way it's premature to declare they are all going to be crippled or great successes.

[displayname]

On 4/4/2019 at 9:15 AM, SeanC said:

Injuries happen; it’s part of the sport.  Alysa is by all accounts in good health and there’s no indication her coaches aren’t managing her training appropriately.  There is plenty of precedent for training young skaters on the triple Axel without issue — Mao Asada, most obviously.

(And others arguing in favor) I think this is different though. They are being taught extremely poor technique and basics. Gogolev has very poor technique on his jumps, and so do Eteri's skaters. It's different from Mao who had better jump basics and infinitely better skating skill basics. It's different from Miki Ando for the same reason. It's different from good male jumpers like Jin who started young while having great basic jumps even if not great basic skating. It's more like Surya Bonaly who was attempting quads despite poor basics all around (although still a much bigger jumper than these people) and got injured. It's more like Uno who has very poor basic jumping and is now experiencing injuries.

Edited April 5, 2019 by displayname

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, displayname said:

I think this is different though. They are being taught extremely poor technique and basics. Gogolev has very poor technique on his jumps, and so do Eteri's skaters. It's different from Mao who had better jump basics and infinitely better skating skill basics.

Eteri jump technique is fine for when you’re small; it doesn’t last, though, which is why her skaters don’t fare well as seniors.  But that has nothing to do with quads, as it’s the same with triples.

Gogolev does not have poor technique, with the exception of the work-in-progress quad Lutz.  His triple Axel, especially, is excellent, as are both the quad toe and quad Salchow.

Mao isn’t somebody I’d cite for strong jump basics.  Indeed, she’s a good example of somebody who spent so much time on the triple Axel that it negatively affected her other jumps (especially the triple Lutz).  That’s why she ended up spending much of the 2010-14 quad totally reworking her jump technique and had two really tough seasons as a result.

[displayname]

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Eteri jump technique is fine for when you’re small; it doesn’t last, though, which is why her skaters don’t fare well as seniors.  But that has nothing to do with quads, as it’s the same with triples.

It's really kind of not "fine", though. It WORKS when you're small; it does still torque your hips, knees, and ankles around. Imagine such a technique being practiced repeatedly. Are you sure we won't end up with what Uno currently has?

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Gogolev does not have poor technique, with the exception of the work-in-progress quad Lutz.  His triple Axel, especially, is excellent, as are both the quad toe and quad Salchow. 

He twists his body during take off, much like Eteri's girls, and excessively prerotates the other two quads you've mentioned. His 3A is fine enough for his age, nothing outstanding, still whipping up off the toepick. Watch again.

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Mao isn’t somebody I’d cite for strong jump basics.  Indeed, she’s a good example of somebody who spent so much time on the triple Axel that it negatively affected her other jumps (especially the triple Lutz). 

Mao had better jump basics than these people. Better vault and none of this twisting into rotation using your upper bodies crap, exceptional air position and flow in and out. Her 2A and her 3Lo were especially outstanding between 2006-2010. Her problem was the fact that her timing was thrown by repeatedly trying to practice harder jumps (it was her attempts at a 4S, in fact, that threw her 3S), and from trying to fix her toe-axel, which she was able to accomplish within the 2006-07 season itself. This is why she had to remaster everything properly after 2010.

Edited April 5, 2019 by displayname

[Darknight]

Quads take down grown men. Even when careful. There's a reason why quads are so dangerous .  There is no reason why kids who have a body that is fragile and still growing need to learn quads so young. They don't  need to learn quads at 10 or jump 5 quads to see if it works out in the end and to see if they keep them. I wouldn't call hip injuries and not being able to walk a good thing or good health. Yes, the sport has risks and injuries but these are also kids with growing bodies. There is a reason why we have age limits. Every sport has an age limit no matter how good the child is. Especially high risk sports. Kids bodies aren't like adults. These kids are ruining their bodies before they even make a name for themselves or get on the world stage.  On top of that the mental pressure at a young age plus the hype doesn't help. Kids don't think like adults. 

As for Eteri, she doesn't fix technique. It's too much work. Many of her skaters came from other coaches. The skaters she does train, her technique only works for girls without boobs and hips and has to be small. So I agree with this logic even if it makes zero sense to me at times. Good technique is also very important. It prevents injuries. Depending on fast rotation and a small body isn't a good thing. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Darknight

[Darknight]

This is why I'm pissed when Evgenia and others get away with bad technique. Mao had to rework her technique and Yuna had to have near perfect technique which she already had to be competitive. Skaters with poor technique get away with it because judges don't care. 

[Darknight]

Karen is apparently going to Cornell. Congrats to her. 

[SeanC]

6 hours ago, displayname said:

He twists his body during take off, much like Eteri's girls, and excessively prerotates the other two quads you've mentioned.  His 3A is fine enough for his age, nothing outstanding, still whipping up off the toepick. Watch again.

I've watched him quite a bit, and sat backstage at championships where journalists, coaches, and other athletes have privately discussed his technique.  

2 hours ago, Darknight said:

I wouldn't call hip injuries and not being able to walk a good thing or good health. Yes, the sport has risks and injuries but these are also kids with growing bodies. There is a reason why we have age limits. Every sport has an age limit no matter how good the child is. Especially high risk sports. Kids bodies aren't like adults. These kids are ruining their bodies before they even make a name for themselves or get on the world stage.

Injuries happen, as you yourself acknowledge.  You don't have any basis for asserting that training these jumps are intrinsically an issue, particularly the triple Axel, which we know has been successfully managed for very young athletes going into adulthood, including girls.  Kids like Stephen and Alysa have good coaches, to all appearances, and especially in the former case they've got plenty of experience taking elite skaters from junior through to senior success.

[Darknight]

31 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I've watched him quite a bit, and sat backstage at championships where journalists, coaches, and other athletes have privately discussed his technique.  

Injuries happen, as you yourself acknowledge.  You don't have any basis for asserting that training these jumps are intrinsically an issue, particularly the triple Axel, which we know has been successfully managed for very young athletes going into adulthood, including girls.  Kids like Stephen and Alysa have good coaches, to all appearances, and especially in the former case they've got plenty of experience taking elite skaters from junior through to senior success.

Injuries do happen. That's the risks. However, kids still shouldn't be doing quads just because they'll get injured anyway. As for as being good coaches, from what I've read Alyssa's coach is young and  doesn't have that much experience. I think allowing kids to jump quads is very irresponsible on the adults and coaches part. I think they should know better. These are kids. It shows they don't really care about their bodies. I mean we can talk about Eteri and the damage she is doing to young kids bodies but we also need to acknowledge the damage other coaches in other countries are doing to kids bodies. That included feds too. 

We can go back and forth about quads, triples and why training them early is best or not. There is research and multiple studies out there plus doctors who've seen the affects it does to the body. Even skaters like Patrick Chan and others were concerned about the number of quads the men were doing and now the quads the girl skaters are doing. .Quads and triples does wonders to the body.  Especially  young bodies of kids. We should all remember why skating change the age to 15 and why Tara basically had to retire right after the Olympics plus have hip surgery before she was even an adult. Even Michelle had hip inquires. Alysa Citzny had hip injuries. Evgeni had injuries. Hanyu had injuries. Chen had injuries. All of these people are adults. Imagine what these jumps does to kids? There is just no reason why a kid must learn a quad unless it's for show,money, or  you're a Russian lady skater and you need it to fight to survive and risk not even making it to juniors. 

Both Alyssa and Stephen's parents sound very involved. I don't think they're thinking long term at all. Since parents control so much of their child's skating in North America, it wouldn't shock me if they're also the ones pushing it. Alyssa, her coach, and dad following the Russia's technique is also very concerning. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Darknight

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Darknight said:

I mean we can talk about Eteri and the damage she is doing to young kids bodies but we also need to acknowledge the damage other coaches in other countries are doing to kids bodies.

The criticism of Eteri is not about any specific jump, it's her heavy reliance on full-runthroughs, which numerous other coaches have said is too physically demanding; as well as her seeming encouragement of various dietary measures to postpone puberty.

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Both Alyssa and Stephen's parents sound very involved. I don't think they're thinking long term at all.

Based on what?  Everything I've read about Mr. Liu suggests he very much has the long term in mind.  Same with the Gogolevs (for a male skater the long term has to be the thing in mind; you don't transition to senior and immediately start winning everything in men's skating, so this isn't about getting him to age 16).  These are their children, after all; while bad sports parents are certainly a thing, nothing indicates the aforesaid are examples of that.

Likewise, Gogolev's coaches have talked about this many times in interviews; they are very specific about how much time he spends training jumps, monitoring his health, and switching focus to other areas when need be.

[displayname]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

I've watched him quite a bit, and sat backstage at championships where journalists, coaches, and other athletes have privately discussed his technique. 

Because they've been so reliable in doing so? Was one of them Orser, perhaps, who said that Medvedeva has fantastic technique? Meagan Duhamel? Eric Radford who recently came out to say that goe is entirely subjective? Care to tell us about this private discussion? How much of a breakdown did they give? Or was it just "his technique is good"? Did they say his 4Lz was bad and why, or did that come out from the forums? Is there a possibility that poor basics applied to his 4Lz MIGHT be going on in the rest of his jumps, or just specifically his 4Lz?

You're wrong. If his technique seems in any way, shape, or form close to what correct technique -- and let's cite Canadian jumpers here -- from Browning, Stojko, or Chan looks like, then no one is using their eyes. As if national pride doesn't come in people's ways to see what they want, and as if there are oh-so-many "coaches, athletes, and journalists" who have talked about pre rotation and crap technique, especially given where Canadian jumping technique stands now. As if people aren't calling Nathan Chen's technique "perfect" as he continues to land on stiff knees with no flow.

Feel free to set him aside an Eteri girl and go frame by frame, and also compare him to a good modern male jumper and attempt to see the difference and similarities.

You also ignored the rest of the discussion on technique from me that goes against what your said. Why Gogolev in particular? But it doesn't matter to me at all. If he loses his jumps, he loses his jumps. Nothing to me.

Edited April 6, 2019 by displayname

[Jeddah]

9 hours ago, Darknight said:

We should all remember why skating change the age to 15 and why Tara basically had to retire right after the Olympics plus have hip surgery before she was even an adult. E

Tara gets mentioned a lot in these conversations. She appears not to have any long-term effects of her hip injuries. She’s always in heels on the NBC broadcast! Now with her adult perspective twenty years later, she’s not wishing she could trade in all of her career achievements so she could have avoided hip surgery. She seemed overjoyed for Alysa. She didn’t watch it and think “She should’t be doing this! We must protect this girl from one day having to have hip surgery!” There is definitely balance needed, obviously. But it’s wrong to decide for these athletes outright that they can’t go for their dreams because of an abundance of caution. With the right coaching and technique, it can be done safely.

Also, I think pairs is waaaaay more dangerous than anything the singles skaters are doing.

I think it’s interesting that ballet gets brought up I’m these discussions. There are definitely ballerinas dancing professionally who started pointe at young ages. They would not be professional dancers if they had waited until they were 12 years old to try on pointe shoes. Misty Copeland is the very rare talent who can just start dancing at age 15 and make it professionally. There are dancers who burn out as teenagers. There are dancers who just stop dancing because they want to. There are dancers who have 20 year careers in professional companies. It really comes down to having good teachers and technique, the drive for it, plus sheer luck. I know plenty of people who started pointe as kids, and none of them had injuries that affect their adult lives in any way. (Although they do have ugly, calloused toes that make pedicures embarrassing. 😉 ).

[SeanC]

10 hours ago, displayname said:

You're wrong. If his technique seems in any way, shape, or form close to what correct technique -- and let's cite Canadian jumpers here -- from Browning, Stojko, or Chan looks like, then no one is using their eyes.

Funny that you mention Elvis, since he was one of the people there, and he is extremely enthusiastic about Gogolev (not that that's news, since he's said the same in interviews).

On another subject, drama aplenty in the US dance ranks (and specifically those of the Wheaton school).  Obviously Rachel Parsons' retirement was big news, but now amongst the juniors, Ian Somerville dropped Eliana Gropman over an email (she wasn't thrilled) and the sibling team of Caroline and Gordon Green aren't listed in the USFSA's current international eligiblity pool, which a lot of people think means they aren't planning to compete, which could be for any number of reasons, from splitting to Caroline's health, which also kept them from competing for much of last season.

[ML89]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

On another subject, drama aplenty in the US dance ranks (and specifically those of the Wheaton school).  Obviously Rachel Parsons' retirement was big news, but now amongst the juniors, Ian Somerville dropped Eliana Gropman over an email (she wasn't thrilled) and the sibling team of Caroline and Gordon Green aren't listed in the USFSA's current international eligiblity pool, which a lot of people think means they aren't planning to compete, which could be for any number of reasons, from splitting to Caroline's health, which also kept them from competing for much of last season.

So is this why Skating Twitter is throwing shade and snarking at each other or is something else going on? I mean besides the usual Zag vs Med, Bell vs LIM which apparently is still going on, and arguing with Ashley. I swear I saw someone post on fandom being terrible and thought it was another fandom I'm in (which are all pretty terrible at the moment) but nope, skating. 

Edit to correct screwing up Lim’s name. Sigh. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by ML89

[stet]

I’m pretty sure the big controversy on Skating Twitter is scoring at Worlds. Specifically, how did Chen get higher PCS than Hanyu, why was Zhou (whom Skating Twitter despises) on the podium, why no Japanese ladies medaled ... Fanyus are pissed. There’s a lot of anger at USFSA and their power (especially given Chen’s scores at US nats, and the belief that this influenced how he was scored at Worlds), and this is in addition to the Coughlin situation.

I’m not a judge, but Chen deserved to win, though probably not by that margin. I agree that GOEs shouldn’t be all over the place. And the ISU remains problematic. But blaming Chen for the downfall of the sport ... that’s not cool.

[HartofDixie]

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

So is this why Skating Twitter is throwing shade and snarking at each other or is something else going on? I mean besides the usual Zag vs Med, Bell vs Loo which apparently is still going on, and arguing with Ashley. I swear I saw someone post on fandom being terrible and thought it was another fandom I'm in (which are all pretty terrible at the moment) but nope, skating. 

It’s been Chen vs Hanyu and the VM Stan’s that attack anyone that likes Davis/White.

[annzeepark914]

What the heck is going on with Bell & Loo, and who is arguing with Ashley? I thought B & L made peace at Worlds. And Ashley's no longer competing. Good grief.

[ML89]

And  Lim 

3 hours ago, stet said:

I’m pretty sure the big controversy on Skating Twitter is scoring at Worlds. Specifically, how did Chen get higher PCS than Hanyu, why was Zhou (whom Skating Twitter despises) on the podium, why no Japanese ladies medaled ... Fanyus are pissed. There’s a lot of anger at USFSA and their power (especially given Chen’s scores at US nats, and the belief that this influenced how he was scored at Worlds), and this is in addition to the Coughlin situation.

I’m not a judge, but Chen deserved to win, though probably not by that margin. I agree that GOEs shouldn’t be all over the place. And the ISU remains problematic. But blaming Chen for the downfall of the sport ... that’s not cool.

Thanks!

And it’s Ensoo Lim, sorry, I conflated her name. It’s been that kind of day....

Ah, Worlds scoring, makes sense.  I saw some of the Davis&White hate, I think Ashley got dragged into the Bell/Lim fight, and yeah, I saw the Fanyus. 

[Mellowyellow]

I think PCS is driving people nuts and giving scope for lots of fights because it's so open to interpretation. 

I still have no idea why people are so enraged by Vincent getting bronze. I didn't care for him at Four Continents (too busy mourning my Junliet) but I have watched his Worlds free skate like 6 times now and thoroughly enjoyed it. There isn't anyone you could have put in his place imo.

There was no great Yuna/Sotnikova scandal for the mens and womens individual events imo. 

Did people fight as much under that crazy system where they ranked people 1, 2, 3 and you could lose to A but had to beat C to win the gold? Or no interwebs back then so no fighting?

Speaking of Skating Twitter I saw someone diss Bradie after saying she had never seen her skate (even on TV). Seriously! WTF! Do these people not realise how crazy they sound? You diss a hard working girl who has never done anything to you and you've never even seen her skate?

[Darknight]

On 4/6/2019 at 7:47 AM, Jeddah said:

Tara gets mentioned a lot in these conversations. She appears not to have any long-term effects of her hip injuries. She’s always in heels on the NBC broadcast! Now with her adult perspective twenty years later, she’s not wishing she could trade in all of her career achievements so she could have avoided hip surgery. She seemed overjoyed for Alysa. She didn’t watch it and think “She should’t be doing this! We must protect this girl from one day having to have hip surgery!” There is definitely balance needed, obviously. But it’s wrong to decide for these athletes outright that they can’t go for their dreams because of an abundance of caution. With the right coaching and technique, it can be done safely.

Also, I think pairs is waaaaay more dangerous than anything the singles skaters are doing.

I think it’s interesting that ballet gets brought up I’m these discussions. There are definitely ballerinas dancing professionally who started pointe at young ages. They would not be professional dancers if they had waited until they were 12 years old to try on pointe shoes. Misty Copeland is the very rare talent who can just start dancing at age 15 and make it professionally. There are dancers who burn out as teenagers. There are dancers who just stop dancing because they want to. There are dancers who have 20 year careers in professional companies. It really comes down to having good teachers and technique, the drive for it, plus sheer luck. I know plenty of people who started pointe as kids, and none of them had injuries that affect their adult lives in any way. (Although they do have ugly, calloused toes that make pedicures embarrassing. 😉 ).

I never said not go for their dreams. They need to protect their bodies. Of course Tara has nothing to say about Liu.  She loves the Russians and just like USA federation is desperate to keep up and have the next Michelle Kwan. Nobody cares about these kids. Kids shouldn't be doing quads. Their bodies can't handle it. It does not matter how safe you try to do them. Quads are quads. The pound the body takes is dangerous for a grown adult, imagine the child's body. You can't do quads and not have risks. It's a quad. It's a risk you take. No matter what safety measures you put in place. 

In dance, most dancers don't go on pointe at young ages.  There are many dancers who go on point during their teen years. It's a myth you need to be on pointe at a young age. Even many top ballet schools don't have young girls on pointe. They too discourage pointe work in young dancers. Young girls might not even be professionals dancers if they go on pointe young. There are also requirements for pointe work. A good teacher will never have young girls on pointe not matter how good she is. Their bones have to get stronger and develop properly. 

We can't keep finding reasons and excuses on why kids should do quads. Well, they want to do it or they need to do them at young ages or they need to follow their dreams. At the end of the day they're kids who don't know better. Their bodies are fragile and growing. The adults and federations should protect them but it seems  as if nobody cares. They're child prodigies.  They're changing history. It's so cool. Nobody is thinking long term. The research and studies prove otherwise. We already know what these jumps and even spins can do to the body. The doctors seeing young skaters with hip, spine, and knee injuries isn't fake. Tara who was made the poster child for this thing. Of course she said it was worth it because she got a Gold medal at the Olympics. The age limit changed to 15 for a reason. This is a real serious issue. Too much too soon for these young skaters. Many might burn out and not even make it to seniors or a name for themselves. I don't see any reason why children need quads. Especially with poor technique. Let them grow first, develop, and when their bodies are done growing and they have good technique, then move on to quads on by one. That's another issue, these kids are doing may quads and doing the hardest quad first. 

[Darknight]

On 4/5/2019 at 11:07 PM, SeanC said:

The criticism of Eteri is not about any specific jump, it's her heavy reliance on full-runthroughs, which numerous other coaches have said is too physically demanding; as well as her seeming encouragement of various dietary measures to postpone puberty.

Based on what?  Everything I've read about Mr. Liu suggests he very much has the long term in mind.  Same with the Gogolevs (for a male skater the long term has to be the thing in mind; you don't transition to senior and immediately start winning everything in men's skating, so this isn't about getting him to age 16).  These are their children, after all; while bad sports parents are certainly a thing, nothing indicates the aforesaid are examples of that.

Likewise, Gogolev's coaches have talked about this many times in interviews; they are very specific about how much time he spends training jumps, monitoring his health, and switching focus to other areas when need be.

Mr. Lui sounds like an amazing father but to me, he and Coach Laura aren't thinking long term for Alyssa. Her 3a needs work and some of her under jumps are UR. Following the Russians for jump tech? Coach Laura sounds young and inexperienced. Her father clearly wants the best for her but someone should sit him down and talk about the long term outcome. Especially with all of these expectations on his daughter to carry USA ladies. Which is too much pressure for a 13yo to handle. 

Stephen's parents sound invested. Too invested if you understand what I mean. Many guy skaters stay in juniors longer than lady skaters. I believe many guys turn senior at 17/18. A few might turn senior at 16/17. So I still don't understand why he needs all of these quads. 

These kids have talent. I want to see them grow. But I think their talent is being overlooked by the adults who think it's cute and funny  for their young skaters to start doing quads and creating buzz before they even hit puberty yet or before their bodies can actually take the pounding of quads. Too much too soon is dangerous.   I can understand if you're a Russian lady because competing is cut throat and you need to stand out, but others I don't get it. Let's  pray the russian ladies make it to juniors when you're doing quads at 10. North America who thrives on longevity vs replacing a skater every season. Clearly USA federation is using Lui and others as bait to show others we have one too. It's disturbing if you ask me. These are children. 

[Darknight]

22 hours ago, stet said:

I’m pretty sure the big controversy on Skating Twitter is scoring at Worlds. Specifically, how did Chen get higher PCS than Hanyu, why was Zhou (whom Skating Twitter despises) on the podium, why no Japanese ladies medaled ... Fanyus are pissed. There’s a lot of anger at USFSA and their power (especially given Chen’s scores at US nats, and the belief that this influenced how he was scored at Worlds), and this is in addition to the Coughlin situation.

I’m not a judge, but Chen deserved to win, though probably not by that margin. I agree that GOEs shouldn’t be all over the place. And the ISU remains problematic. But blaming Chen for the downfall of the sport ... that’s not cool.

My goodness. Or course skating is subjective. Of course I'm mad at the judges but Chen won fair and square. Vincent won 3rd fair and square. Hanyu got 2nd. Of course I question the scores but these fans are getting out of hand. 

The ladies I'm actually more pissed at but those are the results. Tech panel didn't call anyone out so everything was fair I guess. Judges want to see quads and Alina is the OGM and has a reputation so of course she was going to win first if she skated clean or was going to podium. 

Of course USA federation along with Japan and Russian are big federations with a lot of power. Chen was the best skater on that day. He beat Hanyu. I'm actually surprised Chen/Hanyu have a nice rivalry going on and respect each other vs the fans. The Chen/Hanyu rivalry is actually one I look forward to because both respect each other well. 

Should scores be all over the place? No? Should some skaters have higher PCS scores than others? No. But going crazy about it and blaming skaters is wrong. Being upset is ok but attacking others is wrong. I've seen fans use death threats as well. If anything blame the  judging system. 

[Jeddah]

7 hours ago, Darknight said:

Nobody cares about these kids.

I do. I just disagree with you about what that means. It’s a straw man argument to say nobody cares about these kids.

7 hours ago, Darknight said:

In dance, most dancers don't go on pointe at young ages.  There are many dancers who go on point during their teen years. It's a myth you need to be on pointe at a young age. Even many top ballet schools don't have young girls on pointe. They too discourage pointe work in young dancers. Young girls might not even be professionals dancers if they go on pointe young. There are also requirements for pointe work. A good teacher will never have young girls on pointe not matter how good she is. Their bones have to get stronger and develop properly. 

That is not true.

Here’s a cute video from a few years ago of NYCB dancers as kids. Look how many of them are ten years old in pointe shoes. And they are in arguably the best ballet company in the world. Many of these dancers have been in NYCB a long time. Starting pointe at a young age did not ruin their life or ballet career in any way. It set them up to be successful professional ballerinas.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Jeddah

[SeanC]

47 minutes ago, Darknight said:

Mr. Lui sounds like an amazing father but to me, he and Coach Laura aren't thinking long term for Alyssa. Her 3a needs work and some of her under jumps are UR. 

There is no reason to think they aren't working to improve her jumps.

Quote

Stephen's parents sound invested. Too invested if you understand what I mean. Many guy skaters stay in juniors longer than lady skaters. I believe many guys turn senior at 17/18. A few might turn senior at 16/17. So I still don't understand why he needs all of these quads. 

For the reason already explained, because the earlier you learn a jump the better, generally.  Learning new jumps gets harder and harder the older you get.

Quote

Clearly USA federation is using Lui and others as bait to show others we have one too. It's disturbing if you ask me. These are children.

The USFSA is obviously excited about Alysa, but they aren't "using" her.  She's a free agent and is working to be a star on her own.  The USFSA doesn't manage Alysa's career; this isn't China or the old-school USSR.

[Jeddah]

Deanna and Nate broke up. That’s a shame. I always felt like they had a lot of potential, and her comeback was such a good story.

[Darknight]

9 hours ago, Jeddah said:

I do. I just disagree with you about what that means. It’s a straw man argument to say nobody cares about these kids.

That is not true.

Here’s a cute video from a few years ago of NYCB dancers as kids. Look how many of them are ten years old in pointe shoes. And they are in arguably the best ballet company in the world. Many of these dancers have been in NYCB a long time. Starting pointe at a young age did not ruin their life or ballet career in any way. It set them up to be successful professional ballerinas.

My daughter's dance studio will not allow young girls to go on pointe until they're around age 11/12. Usually 12. They do make exceptions for 11 if the dancer meets requirements but 12 is the age they go by at the studio for pointe. Of course there are other studios who don't follow this rule. We even had some parents leave and find another studio who don't have age restrictions. Some studios allow younger dancers even without proper requirements for pointe do pointe because parents push it or they don't care. I don't agree with starting pointe at a young age.  I see young girls 7,8 and 9 on pointe and it makes me cringe. Even some of daughter's dance teachers were shocked. Some professionals don't either that doesn't mean others don't push it or allow it. Even YAGP, the biggest and most prestigious ballet completion in  the world changed their rules about pointe work. Dancers under 10, I believe can't do pointe at competitions. There are also plenty of dancers who started pointe work later. Starting out it's about getting use to it and building up your body and ankles.  

Edited April 8, 2019 by Darknight

[Darknight]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

There is no reason to think they aren't working to improve her jumps.

For the reason already explained, because the earlier you learn a jump the better, generally.  Learning new jumps gets harder and harder the older you get.

The USFSA is obviously excited about Alysa, but they aren't "using" her.  She's a free agent and is working to be a star on her own.  The USFSA doesn't manage Alysa's career; this isn't China or the old-school USSR.

USAFSA is using her. She is going to save ladies figure skating. They do this all the time. Hype young skaters up then drag them when they don't do well and meet expectations. Rinse and repeat. She already has an agent. They've been hyping her up since she was 12. They even sent her to junior worlds to see the Russians and copy them. Clearly they have an agenda. 

Again, I don't believe in the earlier the better. I  can't  support this thinking at all. I think it's being used as an excuse and a reason to support quad jumping by kids. Eteri used this logic too. The earlier the better. We all know how that works in her group.  If that's the case why have age limits in sports? There are many talented kids who can't  compete because  of age limits. Why were the age limits changed? All I see is future burnout and too much too soon.  Many men don't even learn quads until well into juniors/teen years. So why not allow a 10 yo or 12 yo jumping bean be a senior  since the earlier the better. I don't understand the rush at all or why kids must sacrifice their bodies when their career didn't even start yet and their bodies didn't  finish growing yet. I'm worried about all of these kids doing quads at their young ages. I know about the child prodigies or the kids who are amazing as a kid but then burnout or have serious issues as a teen/adult. Especially in skating and sports. 

They already said they're working on quads now and her 3a and triples are ok. She landed three of them at nationals. No need to work on her triples or 3a. Hopefully as a junior they'll call her out so she'll improve. USA federation did nothing to help her when they didn't call her jumps out. Her quads and jumps are also dependent on fast rotation which is very concerning to me. Someone should tell her coach and father to stop looking at Eteri for advice too. 

[Darknight]

Big problem I have and big pet peeve. 

I hate it when people look down or bash the skaters from small federations. They complain about watching them or question why they're competing and say they suck. If anything I root more for skaters from Brazil, Mexico, Poland, France, India,ETC. If skating wasn't so expensive and it was easier to access, I'm sure skaters from these small federations would podium and have a nice career too. 

[Jeddah]

7 hours ago, Darknight said:

My daughter's dance studio will not allow young girls to go on pointe until they're around age 11/12. Usually 12. They do make exceptions for 11 if the dancer meets requirements but 12 is the age they go by at the studio for pointe. Of course there are other studios who don't follow this rule. We even had some parents leave and find another studio who don't have age restrictions. Some studios allow younger dancers even without proper requirements for pointe do pointe because parents push it or they don't care. I don't agree with starting pointe at a young age.  I see young girls 7,8 and 9 on pointe and it makes me cringe. Even some of daughter's dance teachers were shocked. Some professionals don't either that doesn't mean others don't push it or allow it. Even YAGP, the biggest and most prestigious ballet completion in  the world changed their rules about pointe work. Dancers under 10, I believe can't do pointe at competitions. There are also plenty of dancers who started pointe work later. Starting out it's about getting use to it and building up your body and ankles.  

One studio that lets girls start pointe at 11 is a lot different than saying the top schools make girls wait and many dancers start in their teens, which is what you said before.

7 hours ago, Darknight said:

If anything I root more for skaters from Brazil, Mexico, Poland, France, India,ETC.

I think skaters from France are doing okay...

But I do love the stories of skaters who excel despite being one of the few skaters from their country. I agree with you on that.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Jeddah

[HartofDixie]

Anna & Luca on Hitting the Wall;

[HartofDixie]

On 4/8/2019 at 1:41 AM, Darknight said:

Big problem I have and big pet peeve. 

I hate it when people look down or bash the skaters from small federations. They complain about watching them or question why they're competing and say they suck. If anything I root more for skaters from Brazil, Mexico, Poland, France, India,ETC. If skating wasn't so expensive and it was easier to access, I'm sure skaters from these small federations would podium and have a nice career too. 

Donovan Carrillo from Mexico is already a fan favorite and got a standing ovation at 4CC.

[annzeepark914]

One never knows what achievements a struggling skater might eventually enjoy. e.g., the successful Chinese pairs coach who, while competing in pairs at an event in Europe decades ago, was laughed at. 

[Growsonwalls]

To take this on a more lighthearted note, according to the Secret Baby Blog Tessa is again pregnant ... That would be 4 babies in 8 years. Okay.

[NUguy514]

5 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

To take this on a more lighthearted note, according to the Secret Baby Blog Tessa is again pregnant ... That would be 4 babies in 8 years. Okay.

Heh, quite the Fertile Myrtle, isn’t she?

[Mellowyellow]

Been watching clips of WTT and it seems like a lot of fun!

OMG Rika is so adorable I wanna pinch her cheeks!!! She nailed her SP and had the cutest reaction. Sooo cute that one! 

Can't find any clips for the boys (still trying) but all the ladies did really well. 

I also got the biggest kick in hearing that Mie Hamada has been watching over Vincent when his coaches weren't available. 

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Been watching clips of WTT and it seems like a lot of fun!

Where are you finding clips?

[Mellowyellow]

3 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Where are you finding clips?

Hope these still work!

If you go to the link for Bradie's clip you'll see they have put up the boys clips too!

[HartofDixie]

WTT results 

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/wtt2019/

[HartofDixie]

https://people.com/sports/skater-evan-lysacek-engaged-girlfriend-dang/

[Jaded]

NBC copyright claimed those clips. 😒

[Mellowyellow]

12 minutes ago, Jaded said:

NBC copyright claimed those clips. 😒

They work where I am (Australia).

[Mellowyellow]

I just watched this so it should work

[Jaded]

For the US all of those clips show that they are blocked in this country (USA). They could probably be viewed using a something that masks one's true location.