Figure Skating

[Enero]

I finally watched the top performances for the Pairs and the Ladies free programs…

Pairs:

Sui/Han – What can I say? Beautiful and fantastic. Glad to have them back! Love the positions and speed on that last lift. Outstanding. Also, I think it’s pretty incredible how she’s able to skate so well with her hair flying in her face. LOL. It reminds me of Marina Anissina when her very long locks would fly in her face as she skated. It certainly adds flair to the performance. Well deserved win.

Tarasova/Morozov – Good skate. They just do nothing for me though. Even if they’d skated clean, I think the gold would’ve still gone to Sui/Han.

James/Cipres – Very strong skate. Their synchronization at times looked a little off, but overall they were dynamic! Very engaging pair. I’m still sad that they had a not so great short which ultimately kept them off the podium.

Peng/Jin – Skated wonderfully, but they need more presence. Also, I think the 3S were underrotated and they didn’t do a triple/double/double which is likely what kept them off the podium. They are a couple to watch for the future.

Ladies:

Alina – I still think her Carmen program is awful. However, she fought through that program and won. Good for her.

Evgenia – She almost looked as if she had a spray on tan? Or perhaps her makeup was a little too dark for her complexion? Anyway I didn’t feel she connected with her music at all. It was like noise in the background as she skated. She seemed more focused on making it through the program without landing on her ass rather than feeling the music. I can understand this though, considering the struggles she’s had this season. A couple of her jumps looked underrotated too. Winning the bronze should be a confidence booster though. I think many wondered if she’d even make it to worlds much less the podium. Good for her in doing both.

Elizabet – Not much of a program. Just a lot of skating around and jumping.  I wasn’t impressed. If Evgenia had placed higher in the SP, she would’ve won the silver over Elizabet. She did after all beat her in the LP.

Rika – The errors in her program threw off it’s magic. IMO. The music is great as is the choreography. She sort of got it back in the second half of the performance, but not as great as I’ve seen her skate it before. Though she didn’t medal. She did place 2nd in the LP which is impressive.

Sakamoto had the most “feeling” of the night, very engaging program. IMO. She could’ve made the podium. Unfortunately, the missed 3F hurt her.

Like the men’s, both of these events were just ok. No one really blew me away. I think the placements were for the most part right though.

[healthnut]

Looking at the short dance when you can compare the dance teams easily since they’re all doing the same pattern, P/C are miles ahead of these other teams, it’s amazing. Clearly S/K are the anointed ones to challenge them, whatever. Like someone said above, they bore me to tears, I prefer S/B. 

It’s sad that in a season where Chock & Bates and Piper & Paul have improved so much they end up finishing lower at this year’s world than last year. 

[Growsonwalls]

I;m watching the men's competition on NBC SN right now and Japanese skating fans are the best. Such enthusiasm for every skater.

[ombelico]

3 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I;m watching the men's competition on NBC SN right now and Japanese skating fans are the best. Such enthusiasm for every skater.

My favorite part about the Japanese crowd is how they wave flags for each skater's country, to make them feel more at home. I don't think I've ever seen another crowd do that. 

[Perkie]

On 3/22/2019 at 2:38 PM, SeanC said:

A skater who makes the free skate automatically counts for 16 points, so it’s 11+16.  Canada kept two with one ordinal to spare

Which means we lost a spot in the men's.  Haven't seen the long yet, but I felt Nam was undermarked in the short.  So if that ends up factoring into it, I'll be seriously pissed.  I'm already super pissed at Keegan for missing the combo in the short.  

[Darknight]

The Japanese are so friendly to everyone. They were clapping and cheering for all skaters. This should be everywhere for every country. 

I know I get hated on(not here) because people keep thinking I hate the Russians,  I don't. It just sucks the Japanese ladies actually have better technique than the Russians especially basics but the judges reward Eteri's technique and they don't call them out for it. When the Japanese ladies make mistakes it's terrible when Eteri does it it's ok those PCS scores hold up or they pretend as if they didn't see it. 

I hope Mie really helps Rika with her 3a. It's more mental than physical. 

Poor Jason. Being last to skate must suck. Especially after Chen and Hanyu. All he needs are  clean quads and I could see him beat Chen and maybe Hanyu. 

And please, no more Carmen. Kolyada I don't understand why I have a soft spot for him. Maybe because Russian fed is so horrible to him and I feel for him. He's has the Russian men skating on his shoulders. 

And please hire eurosport or bbc for USA commentary. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Darknight

[displayname]

38 minutes ago, Darknight said:

All he needs are  clean quads and I could see him beat Chen and maybe Hanyu.  

Not with Chen's PCS 🤒

40 minutes ago, Darknight said:

I know I get hated on(not here) because people keep thinking I hate the Russians,  I don't. 

Sounds like I know the place? GS?

40 minutes ago, Darknight said:

And please hire eurosport or bbc for USA commentary.  

👏

[annzeepark914]

49 minutes ago, displayname said:

Not with Chen's PCS 🤒

Sounds like I know the place? GS?

👏

Lots of snarkers over at GS.  I tread very cautiously there when making comments re: skaters.

[Enero]

2 hours ago, ombelico said:

My favorite part about the Japanese crowd is how they wave flags for each skater's country, to make them feel more at home. I don't think I've ever seen another crowd do that. 

And continue to cheer even when a skater makes a mistake, encouraging the skater to fight on. 

[Libby96]

Well, another Worlds in the books.  I was on spring break this week, so it was nice to be able to binge on figure skating.  

I didn’t keep count or anything, but it seemed that across all the disciplines  that there were fewer splats than usual.  Perhaps the  skaters are settling into this brave new world of insane tech content.  That being said, I am not looking forward to the ladies’ event becoming a quadfest next year.

Alina deserved her win and I’m happy for her after the rough season she has had, but something about her skating just doesn’t sit right with me.  She looks hunched or something, and the choreography is just so busy.  She is the freaking reigning Olympic champion.  I wish she would learn to hold a position.  Partway through the program she does something that looks like a Charlotte but I’m honestly not sure  what it is, because she pokes her leg up toward the ceiling for half a second while skating backwards, then brings it right down.  Also, can we put Carmen in mothballs and maybe bring it out again in about a decade?

Sui/Han’s perfection, Yuzu and Nathan’s showdown, Jason’s SP were highlights for me.  And props to that enthusiastic and gracious crowd in Japan.  The skaters must love performing there.

[katha]

I actually think that the top two in ice dance deserved their placements. P/C are the class of the field, whatever you think of their style. S/K IMO have an incredibly strong tango RD, very difficult and really showing off their skating skills. That midline step sequence is something else. The FD is rather traditional, but it flows well and they've performed it well all season.

From my point of view, H/D are rather lucky to be on that podium. That FD has been an unholy mess all season, and it didn't really improve here at Worlds either. Plus, I just think it's always a terrible idea for ice dancers to do R+J. It worked once for Anissina and Peizerat, that's about it.

They might have been in more trouble if the field behind them didn't have their own weaknesses. StepBukin, I hate that music in the FD, but that's my personal hang-up LOL. I think what's really hurting them is that she's one of the weaker skaters in the top ten at the moment. Their programs are designed to hide that to some degree, but at a certain point she'll have to improve. Sinitsina has improved a lot, perhaps it's possible for Stepanova as well? Because, as I see it, in the age of P/C  and their smooth skating the international judges have decided to go with S/K as Russian number one because of their superior skating skills. The Russian fed was ready to go with S/B until it became clear in the GP that the international panels prefer S/K.

WeaPo, they've been around so long I think the judges often just see them as stagnating. C/B have done well to go to Montreal and I love their FD, would have had them higher as well. But they are turning around the trajectory and have to convince judges that they're no longer in a downward spiral. It's starting to work, but will take time. G/P have a lovely FD that IMO they haven't skated as well at Worlds as they could have and they also just don't seem quite as good as the pairs in front of them to me? Like, it seems obvious that there's a leap in quality starting with Chock/Bates and that group includes C/B, W/P, S/B, H/D and S/K, while anyone below sixth place is weaker. P/C are on their own.

In general, though: Ice dance needs to get away from all this soft, soft, pastel skating. It works for P/C, let them do it. IMO it actually hurts pairs like H/D who are also stuck in that mode even though they would be much better suited for something more powerful.

[KittenPokerCheater]

I feel like World's should be held in Japan every year.  They are such a knowledgeable and supportive audience.

Please Alina, retire after this season.  I feel  like Eteri will have no more use for you if you can't do a quad.  (me, personally, I think the jumps get too many points).

Evgenia seemed to have a spray tan.  It was nice to see her knock it out of the park.  I think her technique has really improved.

[ChicksDigScars]

11 minutes ago, katha said:

In general, though: Ice dance needs to get away from all this soft, soft, pastel skating. It works for P/C, let them do it. IMO it actually hurts pairs like H/D who are also stuck in that mode even though they would be much better suited for something more powerful.

And that in a nutshell is why I dislike them....well, their pissy sense of entitlement and douchy attitudes, too. They're NOT Virtue and Moir. They need to stop pretending to be. Hubbell is too tall. They're not suited for the "soft, pastel" skating (such an accurate description), and they're too evenly matched height wise, to duplicate the "are they boffing or not" acrobatic sexual chemistry of V/M.

Ugh. Worst podium ever in dance. I think S/K are in the judges favor because of who they are coached by. They went with Zhulin. I guess after 4CC, it was too much to ask for a podium with Chock and Bates, and if we had to have a Russian pair, Stepanova and Bukin. 

You know what the Japanese fans are? The OPPOSITE of Sochi in 2014.  They stood for great performances, no matter who gave them. They were respectful. They were enthusiastic toward EVERYONE, not just their own country's skaters. Basically, everything the Olympic crowds in Sochi DID NOT DO. 

[annzeepark914]

@ChicksDigScars:  Amen!  I was just sitting here trying to think of the music that Madison and Kiefer Hubble skated to in one of their FD's that was so good (and, of course, not romantic).  Cannot think of it...something like Noise of Summer or Noise of something like.  Lowkey, jazzy, very modern. Back when we used to have a jazz station, I loved hearing it.  I'll work on this.

Not too keen on the podium as well.  P/C always look the same, no matter what they're skating to.  Sure, they skate "like buttah" on ice.  But I find them boring now.  Chock and Bates FD is such a breath of fresh air to me and they just present themselves now so well. Somebody worked magic on them up in Gadbois. And the always elegant W/P not on the podium? I need to think about whether or not I want to watch ice dance reruns on the 28th. 

You're right about the Japanese being a great place for competitions.  Hope Worlds/O's never return to Russia. I remember years ago reading, maybe at SkateFans, that several audience members were screaming "Fall" "Fall" over and over while Sasha was competing at Cup of Russia.

[Ruby Gillis]

1 hour ago, katha said:

In general, though: Ice dance needs to get away from all this soft, soft, pastel skating. It works for P/C, let them do it. IMO it actually hurts pairs like H/D who are also stuck in that mode even though they would be much better suited for something more powerful.

More disco twizzles!

[HartofDixie]

Countries that earned more than 1 spot for 2020 Worlds in Montreal:

https://mobile.twitter.com/SylviaUnseen/status/1109556163102822400

[Darknight]

3 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Lots of snarkers over at GS.  I tread very cautiously there when making comments re: skaters.

GS is the worst. I only read. I prefer this forum. I mean you can't say anything bad about the Russians or Eteri because she is a God sent coach and changing history. You can't talk about how young girls shouldn't do quads, their technique, or how it's wrong to starve skaters because they're winning. 

[Darknight]

I remember the Russians booing yes booing skaters. At the Olympics during practice they chanted Evgenia's name when Alina was practicing. So the Japanese is the  best crowd. I love how they throw things at every skater and has different countries flags

[AuntieDiane6]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Elizabet's weight.  I am sure Eteri had her lose 10 or more pounds to assist her Quad.  She looks frightfully anorexic.  

As for the Tara and Johnny, I really appreciated that they kept SILENT during most of the performances. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by AuntieDiane6

[Moxie Cat]

46 minutes ago, AuntieDiane6 said:

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Elizabet's weight.  I am sure Eteri had her lose 10 or more pounds to assist her Quad.

I just caught her on NBC's coverage. Yes, she sure is a tiny little person. I'll believe these quads for women are actually a good idea when a woman who is  taller and more muscular can pull it off. Otherwise, if only junior-type figures can do it, it seems like a potentially harmful trend for the ladies. 

Just to reiterate much of what was said about the Japanese audiences: I know many people who have visited Japan, and to a person, they always remark on the respect, politeness, and kindness they experienced. One friend got lost during her trip and was overwhelmed by how helpful people were to her. Definitely a culture worth emulating.

[annzeepark914]

46 minutes ago, AuntieDiane6 said:

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Elizabet's weight.  I am sure Eteri had her lose 10 or more pounds to assist her Quad.  She looks frightfully anorexic.  

As for the Tara and Johnny, I really appreciated that they kept SILENT during most of the performances. 

She looked anorexic. A pox on Eteri.

I wonder if there were enough complaints about the constant talking (mainly Tara) that NBC sent them a msg. It was a welcome change!

[Darknight]

1 hour ago, AuntieDiane6 said:

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Elizabet's weight.  I am sure Eteri had her lose 10 or more pounds to assist her Quad.  She looks frightfully anorexic.  

As for the Tara and Johnny, I really appreciated that they kept SILENT during most of the performances. 

Evgenia just talked about how weight was with Eteri. She couldn't gain any weight and poor girl was terrified to eat. Even when she moved to Canada she was scared to eat. I believe she said she weights 94 pounds. Which Eteri is proud none of her skaters weigh over 100 pounds. Thank goodness she has a nutritionist now. She said this is how she got injured. No food, low weight, jumping beans= body breaks down.  I am scared for her quad monsters next season. Especially Anna who never leaves the ice just fast rotations and is so skinny already. 

Eteri doesn't work well with women or past puberty. Her quads is just fast rotation. Fast rotation requires small bodies with no boobs and no puberty. Elizabet's mom seems to like Eteri over Brian. At least he tried to fix her jumps. They still have technical issues but Eteri can't work with puberty. There's a reason why all of her skaters are small. She chooses them herself. She even told Paulina she was too tall and said to find something else to do. How rude! People defending Eteri is so gross. These are young girls. She even encourages and supports crazy diets. Yulia was only drinking some weird shake once a day. Alina said she doesn't eat, didn't even drink water during the Olympics, and skips breakfast, she might have a small piece of fruit. Only a piece of fruit and skating for 8 hours a day? Alena said she can only eat a small piece of bread. All of the girls are weighed daily. How can you skate, do quads, and not eat anything? Tech correct technique. 

Again, I will believe in quads for ladies when I see a grown woman like Liza do quads. Boobs, hips, healthy weight, no starving to keep your weight down.  I hope the ISU doesn't allow quads in the sp for ladies right now. We have to see if these girls can keep them past puberty and as young women. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Darknight

[stet]

I have a question - why is it that the lady quadsters are so tiny, while most women who land triple axels are visibly muscular?  

I was under the impression that for the longest time, ladyskaters were reluctant to do 3A because it supposedly requires tremendous upper-body strength and thus a figure that wasn’t in the mold of an ice princess (remember that Ito and Harding were not dainty). Asada seemed tiny, but Kihira looks strong, and Tuktik is not a stick.

So as a non-skater, I would think that quads by women require even more visible muscle than a 3A. Is there something with the physics of a salchow or a toeloop that favor a stick-straight body? (This only seems to only apply to women, since Hanyu can land 3As and quads, and his waist-to-hip ratio is probably the envy of many women.)

[Mellowyellow]

Rika is on her way to fully rotating a quad. She gets sent off to train it often and I think it's a serious strategy for her camp. Fans are speculating she's going to try quads in her ice shows. 

I think the landscape might change if girls like Rika and Kaori can do quads. Kaori does some crazy jumps too and I read stuff about her upping her tech content also. 

I'm not anti quads, I'm anti splatting and as the boys showed last night it doesn't have to be a splat fest, you can have fantastic performances too ( I enjoy Nathan's high energy programs this season) so I'm excited to see boundaries pushed.

[specialj67]

14 minutes ago, stet said:

I have a question - why is it that the lady quadsters are so tiny, while most women who land triple axels are visibly muscular?  

I was under the impression that for the longest time, ladyskaters were reluctant to do 3A because it supposedly requires tremendous upper-body strength and thus a figure that wasn’t in the mold of an ice princess (remember that Ito and Harding were not dainty). Asada seemed tiny, but Kihira looks strong, and Tuktik is not a stick.

So as a non-skater, I would think that quads by women require even more visible muscle than a 3A. Is there something with the physics of a salchow or a toeloop that favor a stick-straight body? (This only seems to only apply to women, since Hanyu can land 3As and quads, and his waist-to-hip ratio is probably the envy of many women.)

I think it’s because the speed of rotation required for a successful quad favors those with a smaller hips to waist to chest ratio. Also, many of the most well-known female skaters currently doing quads are from Eteri Tutberidze’s rink, who seems to emphasize jumping technique that favors smaller skaters—more emphasis on faster rotation than greater height/power.

[HartofDixie]

TSL World Pairs recap with Meagan Duhamal.

[Moxie Cat]

20 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm anti splatting and as the boys showed last night it doesn't have to be a splat fest

You and me both. I remember being so turned off by the men's final in Sochi. One splat after another - and they medaled anyway! I was convinced that maybe quads just shouldn't be done. But now we have multiple guys who can execute them regularly without splatting. AND these guys have different physiques and are still capable of doing them without being tiny or skinny (Nathan, for example, seems quite muscular). Sometimes the technique just has to catch up to the idea.

That said, it's a little disturbing that only the tiny, malnourished Russian teenage ladies seem to attempt a quad. I really hope the ISU examines this issue because it would seem to have a potentially terrible health implication for the discipline. 

[Growsonwalls]

I think the triple axel is a jump where getting great height is important. The front entrance means that you can't do the super-fast rotations. That's why the more muscular men have been able to master the triple axel for 30 years while among ladies it's still a rarity. 

It might also explain why some men can do a quad but struggle with a triple axel. Patrick Chan was someone who seemed to rely on super-fast rotations rather than height, and he struggled with the triple axel his entire career. Nathan Chen is also more consistent with his quad than his triple axel.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Growsonwalls

[backgroundnoise]

Does anyone know if NBCSN is ever going to show the Free Dance?

[HartofDixie]

TSL World Ladies recap with Jenny Kirk.

[Moxie Cat]

15 minutes ago, backgroundnoise said:

Does anyone know if NBCSN is ever going to show the Free Dance?

Haha....is that a trick question? 😊

NBC is notoriously bad at showing dance or pairs, even when the U.S. teams win. It's a real peeve of mine, I would love to see it too though. But regular NBC aired men's and ladies' tonight and I would guess NBC as a whole has now washed their hands of skating for the season.

I'm guessing they only aired the rhythm dance because they ran out of America's Next Ninja Warrior episodes (or whatever that show they marathon is called).

Edited March 24, 2019 by Moxie Cat

[HartofDixie]

15 minutes ago, backgroundnoise said:

Does anyone know if NBCSN is ever going to show the Free Dance?

Don’t know if they will air dance on NBCSN but Worlds will be shown on the Olympic channel.

[annzeepark914]

9 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Haha....is that a trick question? 😊

NBC is notoriously bad at showing dance or pairs, even when the U.S. teams win. It's a real peeve of mine, I would love to see it too though. But regular NBC aired men's and ladies' tonight and I would guess NBC as a whole has now washed their hands of skating for the season.

I'm guessing they only aired the rhythm dance because they ran out of America's Next Ninja Warrior episodes (or whatever that show they marathon is called).

I read somewhere (here?) that repeats of Worlds will be on the Olympic channel:

3/25/19: Pairs SP & LP

3/26/19: Ladies SP & LP

3/27/19: Men's SP & LP

3/28/19: Ice Dance RD & FD

[Moxie Cat]

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, we don't get the Olympic Channel. Oh well!

[HartofDixie]

9 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, we don't get the Olympic Channel. Oh well!

Some Videos from Worlds are (still) available on the following you tube channels:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2cPal5m6DM0HJvGR46xR6A

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCdsK9DJdQhJNvtn7IStd92g

Jackie Wong might have videos available on his page: https://www.rockerskating.com/

Edited March 24, 2019 by HartofDixie

[redpencil]

I thoroughly enjoyed the men's competition. Nathan and Yuzuru were amazing. I think Nathan has quite a presence on the ice. It's certainly different then someone like Hanyu, but he has his own style that I love. I've also seen him in person and sometimes I wonder how well it comes across on tv compared to in the arena. I'm so amazed at what he's accomplished this year.

I also thought Vincent clearly deserved the bronze with the performances that were delivered. No question in my mind. I feel like the (deserved) reputation for URs sometimes makes people think he should be getting URs on jumps that are actually clean. I could watch that gorgeous opening combo he does over and over. It's routinely the highest scoring element of any man, and it should be. And while I get why people complain about his artistry, I truly appreciate that it shows that he's genuinely trying to be an artist and to feel the music. He's not just skating through the music to get to the jumps. He's truly working hard to deliver a complete program. There's certainly still a lot of improvement to do, but I appreciate the effort and have seen growth. He's still so young. All a long-winded way of saying I'm so happy for him.

[specialj67]

Now that the season is finished, was was everyone’s favorite new discovery? Mine was, hands down, Lilah Fear and Lewis Gibson and their disco/‘70s free dance. So much fun, and absolute commitment to the choreography and performance. I really look forward to seeing how they progress during this next Olympic cycle.

[Darknight]

3 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

You and me both. I remember being so turned off by the men's final in Sochi. One splat after another - and they medaled anyway! I was convinced that maybe quads just shouldn't be done. But now we have multiple guys who can execute them regularly without splatting. AND these guys have different physiques and are still capable of doing them without being tiny or skinny (Nathan, for example, seems quite muscular). Sometimes the technique just has to catch up to the idea.

That said, it's a little disturbing that only the tiny, malnourished Russian teenage ladies seem to attempt a quad. I really hope the ISU examines this issue because it would seem to have a potentially terrible health implication for the discipline. 

You and me both. I hated when men would throw in quads they couldn't land just to get the points. I'm happy with the new scoring system. It's not perfect but if you can't land a quad then you shouldn't be rewarded. 

I don't believe ISU cares. They're clearly pushing quads. I think it is going to take a serious injury like Tara's for them to look at this and/or change the age range. 

[Darknight]

4 hours ago, stet said:

I have a question - why is it that the lady quadsters are so tiny, while most women who land triple axels are visibly muscular?  

I was under the impression that for the longest time, ladyskaters were reluctant to do 3A because it supposedly requires tremendous upper-body strength and thus a figure that wasn’t in the mold of an ice princess (remember that Ito and Harding were not dainty). Asada seemed tiny, but Kihira looks strong, and Tuktik is not a stick.

So as a non-skater, I would think that quads by women require even more visible muscle than a 3A. Is there something with the physics of a salchow or a toeloop that favor a stick-straight body? (This only seems to only apply to women, since Hanyu can land 3As and quads, and his waist-to-hip ratio is probably the envy of many women.)

I hope I explain this right. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. I remember when Tonya did her 3a's. 

A 3a is basically throwing yourself in the air and hoping you land. It's a forward take off. The technique doesn't rely on fast rotation. Even doubles are hard which is why many skaters quit if they can't get their double because that's required for senior competitions. It's 3.5 rotations in the air. You have timing, making sure your take off is right, the rotations, speed,height, and the landing. It does require strength because you're throwing yourself in the air. Bad technique is an issue. Many skaters especially men say quads are easier than an axel.  On top of this, women have boobs and hips. You have to find your axis and be close to it(I hope I'm explaining this right) You can't really pull in boobs and hips so that slows you down. You need a very right air position and height. You can't cheat on it. 

In ladies, skating  wants skinny girls. They favor the skinny girls. Judges already have an image of the skater before even judging them. Skinny. So the triple axel needs strong skaters with good height and good air position with good technique.  If you look at the few women who've done triple axel's especially Tonya and Liza, they aren't skinny skinny girls. They're a healthy weight and have strength. Especially Tonya. 

Quads take off  backwards. It's a different technique than the 3a. Strength is also needed. When girls and boys go through puberty, it benefits boys because they get stronger and their center of gravity benefits them. For girls, boobs and hips slow them down and their center of gravity is an issue.

I mean a 10yo girl can do quads but most likely she won't keep them after puberty especially if her technique is bad. Eteri's quad girls are all tiny and relies on fast rotation. The issue is when they go through puberty and get hips and boobs they will lose their quads. It's very hard for a grown woman to do quads and much easier for a teen because of biological differences. The lighter you are and with nothing on your chest or hips the easier it is for you to rotate fast. Even Rika, from the one video I saw of her practicing a quad in Jan and Alyssa are all depending on fast rotation. 

Can a grown woman do quads? Maybe. But she'll have to really work hard for it. Build strength and have muscles. Try to take off good, get the 4 rotations  in less than a second, and land well. I don't know how to explain this but it's like you're fighting gravity. You try to jump but because you have boobs and hips it brings you down and you can't do the rotations needed. If men taped apples to their chest they would find it much more difficult to do quads. All of this is basic physics. 

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong or explained this wrong. 

[Mellowyellow]

I just watched the ESP broadcast of Vincent's skate. According to that commentator them quads were rotated. 

Guess he didn't rob anyone after all and people like to jump on his under rotation reputation. He got sent to Rika's coach for jump training at some point so maybe that helped.  

[BelleBrit]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

I just watched the ESP broadcast of Vincent's skate. According to that commentator them quads were rotated. 

Eurosport is not known for their accuracy (they are often extremely off when they try to predict the scores and also say very factually inaccurate things about skaters and their careers that I've noticed, I never trust them because of it), but I do believe that Vincent deserved the bronze on balance. When people have a reputation for underrotating, as Vincent deservedly does, I feel like everyone tries to be a technical specialist when they do well.  There have been times when he has gotten rotation on quads that I don't think he deserves, but also times where he has gotten unders on quads that I thought were around (and of course lots of times where other's quads seem around that I feel should have been marked as under but never are).  Vincent didn't get away scot free here in the short or long and did get some unders. It's too bad that technical calls will continue to be subjective and controversial (aren't PCs enough for us to argue over)  until there's some sort of better technology...it's long been a way to manipulate scoring. Evgenia's flutz  got no edge call and very high GOE. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by BelleBrit

[Mellowyellow]

11 minutes ago, BelleBrit said:

Eurosport is not known for their accuracy (they are often extremely off when they try to predict the scores and also say very factually inaccurate things about skaters and their careers that I've noticed, I never trust them because of it), but I do believe that Vincent deserved the bronze. When people have a reputation for underrotating, as Vincent deservedly does, I feel like everyone tries to be a technical specialist when they do well.  There have been times when he has gotten rotation on quads that I don't think he deserves, but also times where he has gotten unders on quads that I thought were around (and of course lots of times where other's quads seem around that I feel should have been marked as under but never are).  Vincent didn't get away scot free here in the short or long and did get some unders. It's too bad that technical calls will continue to be subjective and controversial (aren't PCs enough for us to argue over)  until there's some sort of better technology...it's long been a way to manipulate scoring. Evgenia's flutz  got no edge call and very high GOE. 

They need those tennis cameras!

And give the skaters challenges to challenge their calls. Lol can you imagine the drama!?

I am the first to admit I cannot see under rotations (I watched some videos that tried to explain them and felt like I was going cross eyed by the end) but I am suspicious that every other man and his dog seems to be quite expert at spotting them whenever convenient and usually against a skater they dislike.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Mellowyellow

[Enero]

8 hours ago, Darknight said:

Can a grown woman do quads? Maybe. But she'll have to really work hard for it. Build strength and have muscles. Try to take off good, get the 4 rotations  in less than a second, and land well. I don't know how to explain this but it's like you're fighting gravity. You try to jump but because you have boobs and hips it brings you down and you can't do the rotations needed. If men taped apples to their chest they would find it much more difficult to do quads. All of this is basic physics. 

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong or explained this wrong. 

Thanks for this breakdown in layman terms. 🙂 But with all that said, how do WOMEN push the sport? Though I enjoy ladies figure skating I do feel as if it’s technically stagnant. Having a 3/3 and a difficult 3/3 at that ie 3Lu/3T (at least) to win has been standard for well over a decade. And the top ladies have been doing the 2A combos for quite a while as well. You can count on one hand those who can do a 3A and even the rotation on those are often questioned, same with the quads. But as been stated the quads are being “mastered” by girls who have yet to hit puberty. Once they get breasts and hips, the quads will likely disappear. 

Has women’s figure skating stalled out? Looking at how far the men have come in the last decade is incredible. Not only are all the top men doing quads but they are doing some of hardest quads in the business ie the Lutz and Loop (which no one was doing a decade ago. Most would be lucky to do one quad and that was a mere 4T), and many are working on the 4A, which I suspect will be mastered by someone within the next decade maybe sooner which will lead to the top contenders (at least) adding to their repertoire. 

Will ladies ever get there? Or have they plateaued and the most difficult technical content we’ll see from them are the 3/3s?

Edited March 24, 2019 by Enero

[Ruby Gillis]

33 minutes ago, Enero said:

But with all that said, how do WOMEN push the sport? Though I enjoy ladies figure skating I do feel as if it’s technically stagnant. Having a 3/3 and a difficult 3/3 at that ie 3Lu/3T (at least) to win has been standard for well over a decade.

Speaking as someone who finds the men's event really boring, I'd like to see the women's event push the artistic side.  More interpretation of the music, return of long spiral sequences, beautiful spins instead of awkward positions that get more points.  Also, I would like to see the jumps scored correctly.  Call edges and underrotations consistently.  Jumps with proper technique look so much more impressive, more height and distance, less flailing of the arms.  Stop cramming programs with tons of transitions.

One of the reasons that figure skating was so popular in the 90s was that you had skaters with distinct styles and personalities.  Surya Bonaly had bad technique, but she could engage with the crowd.  There are few ladies programs today that I would want to rewatch.

[surreysmum]

23 minutes ago, Enero said:

Will ladies ever get there? Or have they plateaued and the most difficult technical content we’ll see from them are the 3/3s

I'm old enough to remember when we were having this same conversation about ladies and triples. 🙂  Give it time. It may need improvements in equipment (the development of consistent quads in the men did, apparently - I'm sure Stojko has commented on this somewhere), and it'll probably also take one great coach and one great woman-shaped skater finding the secret sauce that everybody else can copy. (I don't think Eteri and her prepubescent quadsters necessarily have that sauce, btw - but you can absolutely bet that every coach in the world is analyzing the Trusova videos to death...)  The sport is driven to a really remarkable degree by what the scoring system rewards. Very few women worked on their flexibility enough to do a Biellmann spin after Beillmann, because it was it wasn't proportionately rewarded, and therefore remained a novelty. Then Slutskaya started doing them, and the skate-over-the-head position was specifically written into the judging as desirable (some would argue in order to give Slutskaya a leg-up over the dominant Kwan; I'm agnostic on that point). Over the 15 years or so, a Biellmann position in the combo spin has become  pretty much compulsory, and guess what - somehow, just about every female skater has mastered some version of it, and what was seen as a slightly freakish accomplishment from Biellmann has become one of the basic skills needed to take your place in the upper echelons of the sport.  Since I don't see the skating establishment ever actively discouraging more rotations in jumps for anybody (it's one of the ways figure skating maintains its tenuous defence of its status as a "proper sport"), then the work for the consistent female quad will continue, just as the work for more and more rotations/height/distance in other twisting and flying sports like freestyle skiing or trampoline continue, because sportspeople are by nature obsessive and for some it's an absolute badge of honour to pursue their goals even through injury. (That said, I'm absolutely in favour of measures to protect the Taras of this world from themselves). Anyway, yes, I think the consistent woman's quad will come - but it may be a process as long and painful for the spectator as the late 70s/early 80s and ladies' triple jumps were.

[Enero]

20 minutes ago, Ruby Gillis said:

One of the reasons that figure skating was so popular in the 90s was that you had skaters with distinct styles and personalities.

If you’re referring to it’s popularity in the U.S. I believe that was mostly attributed to the Tonya/Nancy fiasco. There was interest before but that incident heightened interest exponentially I think, all the way through the height of the Kwan era, which was the mid-late 90s, through the early 2000s before it started to wane. 

I think the reason why the popularity of FS has diminished in the U.S. is in part due to there not being a superstar FEMALE figure skater or two and sadly no controversy to boost interest. 

The sport appears to still be very popular in Europe and Asia, but then over the past decade or so they’ve had quite a few successful competitors which undoubtedly increased the interest that was already there in the sport. 

@surreysmum - Very interesting insight. Thanks for sharing.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Enero

[Darknight]

40 minutes ago, Enero said:

Thanks for this breakdown in layman terms. 🙂 But with all that said, how do WOMEN push the sport? Though I enjoy ladies figure skating I do feel as if it’s technically stagnant. Having a 3/3 and a difficult 3/3 at that ie 3Lu/3T (at least) to win has been standard for well over a decade. And the top ladies have been doing the 2A combos for quite a while as well. You can count on one hand those who can do a 3A and even the rotation on those are often questioned, same with the quads. But as been stated the quads are being “mastered” by girls who have yet to hit puberty. Once they get breasts and hips, the quads will likely disappear. 

Has women’s figure skating stalled out? Looking at how far the men have come in the last decade is incredible. Not only are all the top men doing quads but they are doing some of hardest quads in the business ie the Lutz and Loop (which no one was doing a decade ago. Most would be lucky to do one quad and that was a mere 4T), and many are working on the 4A, which I suspect will be mastered by someone within the next decade maybe sooner which will lead to the top contenders (at least) adding to their repertoire. 

Will ladies ever get there? Or have they plateaued and the most difficult technical content we’ll see from them are the 3/3s?

Ladies should not turn into a jumping contest like men. They're also under a lot of pressure to stay skinny. Also, more jumping means shorter careers. Even triples are hard on ladies bodies. Remember Tara and her 15 minute career?  Do we want to see ladies last a season or two in seniors? Mira got injured doing her 3a and she is a grown woman. Liza had issues for a few seasons too. Men and women have different body types. Puberty is not nice to them if I'm being honest here because of boobs and hips. It sucks boobs slow you down but that's the way we were created. Men are lucky their chests are flat. I suspect next season there will be a lot of falls in ladies trying to do quads or ur quads. I mean the top men can do 5 or 6 quads. I can't see a lady doing this because of biology differences. Let's tape apples to the men's chest. 

You also have to remember many ladies have weak Lutz's. Especially when puberty hits. So having good technique is important. If quads do become the thing in ladies, then the age should be raised. Right now there are 10 year olds doing quads. The Russians are trying to fight puberty. Similar to gymnastics. A 13yo shouldn't be doing quads. Raise the age to protect skaters. I do think ladies are progressing. Will quads become a thing? I really don't know. IWhen I see a grown woman land them then I'll believe it. A quad is just hard to do with boobs. I do think once one lady skater finds something that works for her others will copy it. I think the biggest issue with ladies is that the judges like skinny girls. Simone Biles body type wouldn't be acceptable in skating. Quads requires more strength and muscle. Especially for ladies. They really need strength to fight gravity. So imagine a lady skater with muscles and power doing quads but being made fun of for her body. Even by judges. Judges want quads but only want skinny girls. How does that work? We need more body types accepted. Enough with the girls trying to fight puberty and starve themselves to stay thin. 

Just my opinion. 

[Darknight]

The biggest reason why skating isn't popular here is because you can't find anywhere to watch it. ISU currently thinks it's ok to keep pulling videos. They don't believe in keeping up with current times. 

I also agree we need one skater to draw people in. People still remember Kwan even if they were not a fan of skating. They might just watch for her..USA just puts so much pressure on ladies. They crumble. Many aren't consistent. Every year you see a new face. That's not good for a sport especially an individual one because people are attached to certain athletes. Heck, I only watch tennis for Serena and Rafel because they're both dominate. I was never into gymnastics until I saw Simone Biles and now I keep up with her. I never ever watched swimming in my life until I saw Phelps in 2008. I don't even watch swimming now because he's retired. 

Jumps and spins should be worth the same or similar points. I see skaters focused only on jumps but lack in other areas. And ISU should understand what artistry is. Let's be honest here, who really remembers Tara? Michelle made a bigger impact on skating. I still remember her programs and how beautiful they were. She moved an audience. Judges have no idea what musicality is. People remember programs too ISU. 

[MaryMitch]

3 minutes ago, Darknight said:

The biggest reason why skating isn't popular here is because you can't find anywhere to watch it. ISU currently thinks it's ok to keep pulling videos. They don't believe in keeping up with current times. 

I also agree we need one skater to draw people in. People still remember Kwan even if they were not a fan of skating. They might just watch for her..USA just puts so much pressure on ladies. They crumble. Many aren't consistent. Every year you see a new face. That's not good for a sport especially an individual one because people are attached to certain athletes. Heck, I only watch tennis for Serena and Rafel because they're both dominate. I was never into gymnastics until I saw Simone Biles and now I keep up with her. I never ever watched swimming in my life until I saw Phelps in 2008. I don't even watch swimming now because he's retired. 

Jumps and spins should be worth the same or similar points. I see skaters focused only on jumps but lack in other areas. And ISU should understand what artistry is. Let's be honest here, who really remembers Tara? Michelle made a bigger impact on skating. I still remember her programs and how beautiful they were. She moved an audience. Judges have no idea what musicality is. People remember programs too ISU. 

I would love to see a US woman return to the top!  But I do enjoy watching the Japanese women. Johnny Weir has ruined the Russian women for me; I just can't stand his constant fawning.

I would also like to see more artistry in the ladies' programs. A couple women did short spirals in their long programs and they were lovely. I like athleticism, and I understand that the "hand over the head" makes a jump more difficult, but when it looks like the woman is just throwing up her arm and bending it to scratch her ear, it's just ugly.  Just because something makes a jump harder doesn't mean it should be rewarded; do they reward bad technique?

And as for spinning - every now and then I go to youtube and watch Lucinda Ruh spin. Nobody today even comes close!

[Darknight]

36 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

I would love to see a US woman return to the top!  But I do enjoy watching the Japanese women. Johnny Weir has ruined the Russian women for me; I just can't stand his constant fawning.

I would also like to see more artistry in the ladies' programs. A couple women did short spirals in their long programs and they were lovely. I like athleticism, and I understand that the "hand over the head" makes a jump more difficult, but when it looks like the woman is just throwing up her arm and bending it to scratch her ear, it's just ugly.  Just because something makes a jump harder doesn't mean it should be rewarded; do they reward bad technique?

And as for spinning - every now and then I go to youtube and watch Lucinda Ruh spin. Nobody today even comes close!

It turned me off seeing Evgenia get away with poor technique for two seasons. Johnny and Tara are so annyoing. They mention the Russians everywhere. Even at nationals. The highest scoring skater here would be 15th place at Russian nationals. We are at USA nationals Johnny! 

Last year at Worlds, they asked seniors how do they feel about a 13 to landing two quads. Why should they care at senior worlds? 

I love the Japanese because they're not all about jumps. They also have good technique but are overlooked for it. They would rather reward the Russians with bad technique. You can even look at Alina and Hanyu side by side at the gala and see who has good technique. 

I remember seeing amazing spins. Stephane Lambiel anyone? Sasha Cohen? 

36 minutes ago, MaryMitch said:

I would love to see a US woman return to the top!  But I do enjoy watching the Japanese women. Johnny Weir has ruined the Russian women for me; I just can't stand his constant fawning.

I would also like to see more artistry in the ladies' programs. A couple women did short spirals in their long programs and they were lovely. I like athleticism, and I understand that the "hand over the head" makes a jump more difficult, but when it looks like the woman is just throwing up her arm and bending it to scratch her ear, it's just ugly.  Just because something makes a jump harder doesn't mean it should be rewarded; do they reward bad technique?

And as for spinning - every now and then I go to youtube and watch Lucinda Ruh spin. Nobody today even comes close!

It turned me off seeing Evgenia get away with poor technique for two seasons. Johnny and Tara are so annyoing. They mention the Russians everywhere. Even at nationals. The highest scoring skater here would be 15th place at Russian nationals. We are at USA nationals Johnny! 

Last year at Worlds, they asked seniors how do they feel about a 13 to landing two quads. Why should they care at senior worlds? 

I love the Japanese because they're not all about jumps. They also have good technique but are overlooked for it. They would rather reward the Russians with bad technique. You can even look at Alina and Hanyu side by side at the gala and see who has good technique. 

I remember seeing amazing spins. Stephane Lambiel anyone? Sasha Cohen?