Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Lady S.]

Oh John Potts just reminded me of something else about Talisa - her "noble" backstory is just so freaking weird.  I mean she's a noble but not from Westerous, but our entire vision of the Free Cities seems to imply that they don't really have nobility like Westerous does.  They seem to have rich and slaves.  And while they do cover her reason for being in Westerous with "I wanted to leave and come to a place where they don't have slaves" - just how exactly does a woman of noble birth do that?  Did she run away from home?  Are her parents dead?  Was she engaged to someone else as she almost certainly would have been at her age if she was noble?

I was surprised in 3.07 when they had Talisa writing to her parents, as I also assumed from her slavery speech that she was estranged from her family to be starting over on her own in Westeros. That was the first time the Talisa as spy theory felt credible because her writing a coded message to Tywin made more sense to me. It's impossible to add up all her scenes into a full characterization. How did she become the only non-Silent Sister tending to the wounded on the battlefield? How did she go from slavery is bad to that singular career path? Her scenes with Robb were mostly about how fascinating she was to him, how happy he was, how exotic and sexy she was to him, I never really got a feel for her perspective, her thoughts and feelings. She just existed to be Robb's love interest, so she could give him the hope of a baby and then get stabbed and die in his arms. By contrast, Ygritte could be pretty annoying but at least I felt like I understood her. If Talisa had some consistency and real development, maybe it wouldn't have mattered as much how little time for set-up the romance had. One way too long monologue about Volantene slavery didn't do it for me.

I agree with the bolded part.  At the time I read this part of it I figured that was the case, but my problem with it comes later:

 

I Jaime's chapter in AFFC when he's at Riverrun dealing with the aftermath of the seige, he talks to Sybil Westerling nee Spicer.  Sybil is trying to get him to fulfill Tywin's promises (her brother becomes lord of Castemere, her kids get good marriages).  That seems to imply that they were conspiring.  I guess we're supposed to believe that all she was doing was feeding her daughter a contraceptive, but I can see how this might be interpreted that she was working for him all along. 

Yeah, I know, I was just talking about the info available so far, and even there, it's not clear

when Sybell and Tywin made that deal or who reached out to whom. Her older son did die at the RW and Jeyne would have too if Cat hadn't convinced Robb not to bring her, so if she did more for Tywin than giving Jeyne moon tea he didn't repay her all that well imo. Makes more sense to me that it was Sybell's own idea to pimp out her daughter and she just covered her bases with Tywin afterward. I think that's more likely than Tywin having the opportunity and foresight to plant the nursemaid idea.

[jellyroll2]

You know something I always found interesting in the books? Ned & Cat didn't have their children fostered, hadn't even seemed to be thinking about marriages for Robb & Sansa. So yes, I'm sure Robb in the book did know he would have an arranged marriage but that didn't seem to be a thing on his parents' list of priorities. Nether of them ever have a thought about "so and so's son/daughter had been considered an option for X at some point but..." I know, a lot of things are going on and there are plenty of other things on their minds once this story starts. But Cat of all people never had a thought about marriage prospects for Robb before the encounter with the Freys. She never thinks about this was discussed at some point. Ned didn't send Robb or Bran or Jon to be fostered with any of the northern lords. That seems unusual for a high lord, doesn't it?

[Avaleigh]

I agree with the Ygritte comparison, Lady S. Even though Ygritte got on my nerves at times at least I got her as a character. 

 

As far as show only characters I actually think that Ros was a better addition than Talisa. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't have preferred a character like Jeyne Poole over Ros but I mostly appreciated the function she served save the infamous brothel scene with Littlefinger and that nameless prostitute. 

[Delta1212]

You know something I always found interesting in the books? Ned & Cat didn't have their children fostered, hadn't even seemed to be thinking about marriages for Robb & Sansa. So yes, I'm sure Robb in the book did know he would have an arranged marriage but that didn't seem to be a thing on his parents' list of priorities. Nether of them ever have a thought about "so and so's son/daughter had been considered an option for X at some point but..." I know, a lot of things are going on and there are plenty of other things on their minds once this story starts. But Cat of all people never had a thought about marriage prospects for Robb before the encounter with the Freys. She never thinks about this was discussed at some point. Ned didn't send Robb or Bran or Jon to be fostered with any of the northern lords. That seems unusual for a high lord, doesn't it?

I'd say yes, but also Ned is someone who literally had his entire family end up dead in tragic circumstances.

I could see him being a little bit... clingy with the blood relatives he was left with in his children.

Maybe Bran or Rickon would have wound up being fostered somewhere when they were a bit older, but I can see why he might have wanted to keep the older kids close.

Edit: and actually, who would he have fostered? Robb's the heir, he'd probably want him in Winterfell. Jon he may have wanted to keep close for his sister's sake and because he was all that was left of the family that had been killed in the war. Sansa and Arya are both girls.

That leaves Bran and Rickon. Bran's only seven at the time the books start. That's not too young to foster somewhere, but it's not so old that they couldn't have been planning to arrange something in a couple of years, and Rickon is quite young to be sending away at 3.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Delta1212

[Crossbow]

You know something I always found interesting in the books? Ned & Cat didn't have their children fostered, hadn't even seemed to be thinking about marriages for Robb & Sansa. So yes, I'm sure Robb in the book did know he would have an arranged marriage but that didn't seem to be a thing on his parents' list of priorities. Nether of them ever have a thought about "so and so's son/daughter had been considered an option for X at some point but..." I know, a lot of things are going on and there are plenty of other things on their minds once this story starts. But Cat of all people never had a thought about marriage prospects for Robb before the encounter with the Freys. She never thinks about this was discussed at some point. Ned didn't send Robb or Bran or Jon to be fostered with any of the northern lords. That seems unusual for a high lord, doesn't it?

 

Good thought. I know Ned and Cat thought their situation was really secure so they didn't NEED to arrange marriages right this minute, although at least with Robb's age they should have been thinking about it.

 

Fostering: I believe that in the real world it was kind of a mutual hostage situation (you betray me, I kill your kid), but I think there were times where a subjugated family would have to send a foster to a dominant family. We don't really know how common fostering is in Westeros, do we? I am not sure it was discussed.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Crossbow

[Delta1212]

Well Ned and Robert were both fostered with Jon Arryn, and they talked about fostering Robert Arryn with Tywin.

It seems pretty common, and in reality would have been meant to strengthen ties with other important families rather than, in most cases, being a mutual hostage exchange first and foremost.

[SeanC]

I think the lack of fostering (and, perhaps, marital planning) is, in-universe, meant to be a legacy of Ned's own generation's experiences (though I guess that doesn't explain why Catelyn hasn't had any thoughts about it either; realistically she should have been sounding out Lysa, Jon Arryn, etc. about Joffrey years earlier), though on a meta level it's because GRRM wants to present the Starks as the closest thing the series has to a modern nuclear family.

 

I think that's the same reason the Starks' court at Winterfell is so unrealistically barebones.  Ned not sending his sons away is one thing, but his lack of squires and wards is quite another.  There should realistically be a flock of boys and girls from the banner houses to serve as companions to the Stark children, but amongst the boys there's only Theon (who is a hostage), and the girls' (Sansa's, effectively, since Arya doesn't get along with any of them) social circle consists of two children of the household staff.

[Crossbow]

It seems pretty common, and in reality would have been meant to strengthen ties with other important families rather than, in most cases, being a mutual hostage exchange first and foremost.

 

It was both. But I think the strengthening ties was secondary. If it were mainly about strenghening ties, it would still be going on.

[WindyNights]

Exactly! I was like, well that just slapped me right in the face with something I should have realized a while ago. Then on re-reads it's so apparent you're like "oh duh".

I haven't read SoS in a while so I can't recall how far outside the bounds Edmure went. I do know he was fighting near the river and it was close enough that Cat could see the battle. Being unable to execute his western plan definitely was a huge blow but I wouldn't chalk Robb losing the war only on Edmure. Perhaps just the first huge fall off the cliff.

Edmure literally screwed the entire family. He pushed Tywin out of the jaws of defeat. Tywin would've ended up stuck between Edmure and Robb when the Blackwater happened so he wouldn't have arrived at the last minute to surprise Stannis. Stannis would've executed the royal family which means no Tyrell alliance.

Also he took the Northern troops that were at the Twins to make sure of Walder's good behavior to reinforce his army.

Add in that he got his Riverlands forces chopped to smithereens by Jaime before the North entered the war losing half his strength and then convincing Robb to let the Riverland troops defend their homes which ended up costing Robb a big part of his numerical advantage over Tywin (he had double Tywin's army numbers at the end of AGOT). Enough so that he couldn't besiege Tywin at Harrenahl.

[SeanC]

and then convincing Robb to let the Riverland troops defend their homes which ended up costing Robb a big part of his numerical advantage over Tywin (he had double Tywin's army numbers at the end of AGOT). Enough so that he couldn't besiege Tywin at Harrenahl.

Robb wasn't planning to besiege Harrenhal.  Edmure argued for releasing his bannermen to go retake their homes precisely because the army was otherwise sitting around doing nothing.

[Delta1212]

It was both. But I think the strengthening ties was secondary. If it were mainly about strenghening ties, it would still be going on.

I don't think that necessarily follows. There are a lot of reasons why that practice is no longer necessary. We no longer have a feudal political system that relies so heavily on family relations and inheritance of power. Modern communication and travel technology make maintaining relationships with distant people much, much easier from the comfort of your own home.

And, most importantly, the same purpose is currently served by institutions of higher education that often serve as networking hubs for the wealthy and powerful. You don't send your kids off to live with the right family in order to develop advantageous relationships among the next generation, you send your kids off to the right school.

[ElizaD]

I think the lack of fostering (and, perhaps, marital planning) is, in-universe, meant to be a legacy of Ned's own generation's experiences (though I guess that doesn't explain why Catelyn hasn't had any thoughts about it either; realistically she should have been sounding out Lysa, Jon Arryn, etc. about Joffrey years earlier), though on a meta level it's because GRRM wants to present the Starks as the closest thing the series has to a modern nuclear family.

 

I think that's the same reason the Starks' court at Winterfell is so unrealistically barebones.  Ned not sending his sons away is one thing, but his lack of squires and wards is quite another.  There should realistically be a flock of boys and girls from the banner houses to serve as companions to the Stark children, but amongst the boys there's only Theon (who is a hostage), and the girls' (Sansa's, effectively, since Arya doesn't get along with any of them) social circle consists of two children of the household staff.

 

This is something I'd noticed before. There are in-world reasons for why two of the core families are so very small and isolated; the Starks lost almost all of Ned's generation (only 1 out of 4 was left to continue the line since Benjen joined the Night's Watch, and I have no idea why Ned allowed that), the Targaryens were also killed off and the incest led to a smaller number of marriages, so that only the Lannisters feel like a big medieval family with plenty of named or unnamed cousins offscreen in the Westerlands. Yet despite these reasons, I think it's mostly to do with practicality and keeping the story focused: it's easier to write about the fall, exile and presumably triumphant return of the Starks and Targaryens when there are so few of them and there's no need to explain why Stark cousins #1-13 aren't either fighting the Boltons to reclaim Winterfell or making deals with the Lannisters.

 

I also feel that GRRM didn't necessarily have the best understanding of the social life of courts. Even King's Landing feels small in the first two books: despite being queen and future queen, Cersei and Sansa don't have the ladies-in-waiting and networks they should have had for both practical reasons and to boost their prestige (as well as that of their ladies, who would gain opportunities in addition to duties). It's only with the arrival of the Tyrells and Margaery with her flock of cousins that King's Landing starts to seem more like a court to me, with a wider variety of people hanging around looking for favors, jobs and marriages.

 

I didn't follow the Unsullied threads so I've hesitated to comment here since I don't know just how much they figured out by discussing the show, but it's fascinating to read about TV vs. Books from this perspective. Could someone tell me if stillshimpy has been spoiled about the existence of

Stoneheart?

[jellyroll2]

I think the lack of fostering (and, perhaps, marital planning) is, in-universe, meant to be a legacy of Ned's own generation's experiences (though I guess that doesn't explain why Catelyn hasn't had any thoughts about it either; realistically she should have been sounding out Lysa, Jon Arryn, etc. about Joffrey years earlier), though on a meta level it's because GRRM wants to present the Starks as the closest thing the series has to a modern nuclear family.

 

I think that's the same reason the Starks' court at Winterfell is so unrealistically barebones.  Ned not sending his sons away is one thing, but his lack of squires and wards is quite another.  There should realistically be a flock of boys and girls from the banner houses to serve as companions to the Stark children, but amongst the boys there's only Theon (who is a hostage), and the girls' (Sansa's, effectively, since Arya doesn't get along with any of them) social circle consists of two children of the household staff.

 

Another good point. Why aren't the Mormont or Manderly girls there? Other families' sons are mentioned quite a bit but Ned doesn't have any of them warding at Winterfell? I do get probably wanting to keep his family close to him considering but he's not fostering others' kids either. So yes, they are the closest thing to a "modern" type family we see in the story. Robb was the heir but so was Robert. So is Robert Arryn. I could chalk it up and say it's not a big northern custom. I think others have done it but perhaps it's not as prevalent as it is in the south?

[John Potts]

Actually, a 14 year old Robb isn't that implausible: he's probably inspired by the Black Prince and Henry V who were both in their teens at the time of their first commands (Edward III - the Black Prince's father - famously let him have his head in battle - "Let the lad win his spurs" at about that age and he achieved a stunning victory). Henry V not only destroyed a French army at Agincourt, he leveraged it into an advantageous political marriage by marrying the French King's daughter and thus strengthened the English hold on France (unfortunately he also may have managed to introduce the illness that led to his son's madness that led to the loss of both of his son's thrones). So teenagers successfully leading armies isn't so unlikely, given the source material - the fact that he doesn't realise that a political marriage is as much a part of being a ruler far harder to swallow.

[Delta1212]

This is something I'd noticed before. There are in-world reasons for why two of the core families are so very small and isolated; the Starks lost almost all of Ned's generation (only 1 out of 4 was left to continue the line since Benjen joined the Night's Watch, and I have no idea why Ned allowed that), the Targaryens were also killed off and the incest led to a smaller number of marriages, so that only the Lannisters feel like a big medieval family with plenty of named or unnamed cousins offscreen in the Westerlands. Yet despite these reasons, I think it's mostly to do with practicality and keeping the story focused: it's easier to write about the fall, exile and presumably triumphant return of the Starks and Targaryens when there are so few of them and there's no need to explain why Stark cousins #1-13 aren't either fighting the Boltons to reclaim Winterfell or making deals with the Lannisters.

I also feel that GRRM didn't necessarily have the best understanding of the social life of courts. Even King's Landing feels small in the first two books: despite being queen and future queen, Cersei and Sansa don't have the ladies-in-waiting and networks they should have had for both practical reasons and to boost their prestige (as well as that of their ladies, who would gain opportunities in addition to duties). It's only with the arrival of the Tyrells and Margaery with her flock of cousins that King's Landing starts to seem more like a court to me, with a wider variety of people hanging around looking for favors, jobs and marriages.

I didn't follow the Unsullied threads so I've hesitated to comment here since I don't know just how much they figured out by discussing the show, but it's fascinating to read about TV vs. Books from this perspective. Could someone tell me if stillshimpy has been spoiled about the existence of

Stoneheart?

No.

[jellyroll2]

This is something I'd noticed before. There are in-world reasons for why two of the core families are so very small and isolated; the Starks lost almost all of Ned's generation (only 1 out of 4 was left to continue the line since Benjen joined the Night's Watch, and I have no idea why Ned allowed that), the Targaryens were also killed off and the incest led to a smaller number of marriages, so that only the Lannisters feel like a big medieval family with plenty of named or unnamed cousins offscreen in the Westerlands. Yet despite these reasons, I think it's mostly to do with practicality and keeping the story focused: it's easier to write about the fall, exile and presumably triumphant return of the Starks and Targaryens when there are so few of them and there's no need to explain why Stark cousins #1-13 aren't either fighting the Boltons to reclaim Winterfell or making deals with the Lannisters.

 

I also feel that GRRM didn't necessarily have the best understanding of the social life of courts. Even King's Landing feels small in the first two books: despite being queen and future queen, Cersei and Sansa don't have the ladies-in-waiting and networks they should have had for both practical reasons and to boost their prestige (as well as that of their ladies, who would gain opportunities in addition to duties). It's only with the arrival of the Tyrells and Margaery with her flock of cousins that King's Landing starts to seem more like a court to me, with a wider variety of people hanging around looking for favors, jobs and marriages.

 

I didn't follow the Unsullied threads so I've hesitated to comment here since I don't know just how much they figured out by discussing the show, but it's fascinating to read about TV vs. Books from this perspective. Could someone tell me if stillshimpy has been spoiled about the existence of

Stoneheart?

For the spoiler, no I don't believe so. That should be interesting. *evil laugh*

[nksarmi]

I was so excited about learning what shimpy thought about Talisa vs Jeyne that I haven't bothered to look up when she will learn what is under the spoiler tag.  If nothing else, her reaction should be interesting.

[Avaleigh]

And we won't get to enjoy that one for awhile. It seems like most of the stuff I'm looking forward to happens near the end of each book. 

[Shanna Marie]

So teenagers successfully leading armies isn't so unlikely, given the source material - the fact that he doesn't realise that a political marriage is as much a part of being a ruler far harder to swallow.

It's not so much that I don't know that teenagers didn't lead armies in the era in question, but rather the mental image I had when reading. I kept picturing a 14-year-old of today, which is more of a child because maturity works on a different scale in today's American society. Their 14-year-old would probably be closer to 18-mid twenties for us. The series helped me by jolting the mental image into one that computed a little better and that was easier to wrap my head around. A teenager in the society depicted in the books would have very different expectations of duties and maturity level and would be further along on the life expectancy scale. It was just hard to picture the right age when I was remembering being 14 and thinking of 14-year-olds I knew.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, I have to ask, did I read it incorrectly in Catelyn's II chapter?

I thought the Westerlings were bannermen of the Lannisters and that Jeyne's father had been captured at the Crag (I think that was the name). Is that not right?

If it is right, then pretty much the only way it makes any sense, whatsoever, to try and get Jeyne married off to Robb Stark -- and again, for every reason that I've already stated, there's just pretty much no way it was an accident (you don't allow virginal, marriageable, pretty young hopes of a minor house to nurse a highborn teen boy unless you're hoping that something goes down that calls for honor to demand that he marry her) -- is if none other than Tywin Lannister helped align those chess pieces.

Otherwise, for reasons that seem pretty unlikely, the Westerlings threw their (I'm assuming) virgin daughter into the path of The King in the North (also known as the enemy of their Leige Lord and Grandpappy to the king for whom they were fighting) hoping to join their house to the Starks....why now?

Because they were either hoping to break up the Frey alliance and present that to Tywin Lannister and have their daughter produce the next heir to Winterfell? I mean, if Robb Stark loses the war, he's a dead man (and we know he's a dead man) then without that being at Tywin's say-so, or having figured out "This will splendidly fuck up the Frey alliance....wooo!" it's a tad awkward when it comes to their Lannister loyalty, isn't it?

Or did I just misread that and they aren't bannermen for the Lannisters?

Because otherwise -- and again, it's just not any kind of accident that their unmarried daughter was nursing Robb (or they could be complete idiots, which is possible) -- having Jeyne marry Robb is ass-awkward in the "How dead will Tywin Lannister kill us all for this?"  

 

Wouldn't you rather have a deflowered daughter NOT married to a traitor to the rightful King (if they are Lannister bannermen)? 

 

Plus, unless I misread the entire "No one is going to get stabbed to death in the baby" which I took to mean that Talisa/Jeyne survives (but Talisa turns out to be Jeyne)  ...and instead it means that Jeyne ends up killed along with the rest of them....in which case I'm just wrong, because if it was Tywin's plan, then there wouldn't be any effort to spare Jeyne.  

 

So that's what I guess I will eventually find out.  But that is what I took away from being told no one was getting stabbed to death in the baby.   That and if I just read it wrong and they were Robb's bannermen all along then they were just hoping that fate would be kind to their lesser house by having Jeyne ...what...impress Robb somehow? 

 

ETA:  I'll go and double-check now, but that was a HUGE part of why I thought it had to be a bizarrely twisted plan. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[chandraReborn]

We find out what happened later. Basically 

Jeyne's mother pushed Jeyne to "comfort" Robb in hopes of breaking the alliance and getting favor from Tywin. But Jenye and her siblings knew nothing of this; one of her brothers dies fighting for Robb at the Red Wedding.

[Haleth]

Yes, the Westerlings are Lannister bannerman, but they are a house that has seen better and more prosperous days. Their castle was captured by the king of the North, who seems to be winning the war, so they decided raise their status by dangling their daughter in front of him. As several of us have said, they are opportunists of the worst sort.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Haleth

[stillshimpy]

Okay, I double checked and they are sworn to the Lannisters, so I'm going to have to wait and see what happens from here on in, but that's why it seemed such a given to me that "Oh shit, that was a trap, dude, how could you not know that?"  

 

All right, so ambi, you asked what I thought of Tryion's most recent chapter, and mostly I thought that was the worst chapter out of any of the books.  George Martin's forte are NOT sex scenes and between a lot of Shae, Shae, more of Shae and Tyrion's lust for Shae (now with squeezing details) , plus a cross dressed Varys just to add to the oddity.  

 

So that mostly drew my focus.  

[Dev F]

Okay, I have to ask, did I read it incorrectly in Catelyn's II chapter?

I thought the Westerlings were bannermen of the Lannisters and that Jeyne's father had been captured at the Crag (I think that was the name). Is that not right?

 

They are minor Lannister bannermen, but Lord Westerling was captured in an earlier battle.

 

If it is right, then pretty much the only way it makes any sense, whatsoever, to try and get Jeyne married off to Robb Stark -- and again, for every reason that I've already stated, there's just pretty much no way it was an accident (you don't allow virginal, marriageable, pretty young hopes of a minor house to nurse a highborn teen boy unless you're hoping that something goes down that calls for honor to demand that he marry her) -- is if none other than Tywin Lannister helped align those chess pieces.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, GRRM never really spells out exactly who was plotting what when. We will eventually learn a few more choice details, some incriminating, a few exculpating, and I don't think the readership has come to a broadly accepted consensus of the exact scope or contours of the plot against Robb.

 

The only thing that gives me pause about coming down firmly on the "Tywin did it all" side is that it requires him to be playing such intricate 3-D chess right from the start that it strains credulity. But I agree with you that it doesn't make much sense for the Westerlings to have thrown Jeyne at Robb to gain his favor, either. The more plausible alternative, I think, is that Jeyne's mother saw an opportunity for the insignificant Westerlings to curry some favor with their lord even in defeat, so she decided to disrupt Robb's alliances of her own initiative and then brought Tywin up to speed.

[Avaleigh]

This is a question but I'm spoiler tagging just in case because I can't recall when we learn background info on Jeyne's family.

Didn't Jeyne's father marry her mother for her money? And didn't she marry him to boost her social status? Or was it a grandmother who had the Spicer money? This just seems to go in line with the Westerlings being opportunists in general.

[Triskan]

Just passing to ask if you've gone beyond Catelyn II so far ? :)

[stillshimpy]

is that Jeyne's mother saw an opportunity for the insignificant Westerlings to curry some favor with their lord even in defeat, so she decided to disrupt Robb's alliances of her own initiative and then brought Tywin up to speed.

 

Okay, that would also make sense.  "Sorry we sheltered the traitor, Tywin.  But we got you this:  A broken alliance with the Frey and a possible heir to Winterfell all in one.  Are we besties again?"  because the whole "The Freys alliances are lost and we just cost Robb Stark THOUSANDS of men" thing would make a heck of "sorry we got our asses captured in the Whispering Woods there, Tywin.  To make amends, have some merry chaos."  

 

But I guess I was assuming that in this story having ridiculous amounts of foresight was kind of part of the plot.  Like whoever decided to try and kill Bran -- since it wasn't a Lannister (and was almost certainly Littlefinger) -- was cheerfully heaving  a grenade into the works, hoping to cause a destruction of the power structures.  

 

So....strange and preternatural levels of foresight and a strange ability to control shit that's pretty far away seems to already be part of this story.  

 

 

 

Just passing to ask if you've gone beyond Catelyn II so far ? :)

 

No, I'm sorry I haven't Triskan, but I know it's a Jon chapter and I promise I'll pay close attention.  Off topic aside:  I'm trying to help organize a low-cost spay and neuter 501c effort for a rural area here and....it's been gobbling up my time like crazy.  However, by tomorrow afternoon, if I haven't taken just drinking a giant ass bottle of vodka with an exceptionally long straw to help deal with the "well this is fun, in the same way hitting myself in the head with a hammer might be" of it all....I hope to be able to actually focus on it :)  Having cleared a 1 pm deadline and meeting for it. 

 

Anyway, wish me luck.  TNR (trap, neuter, release) program for the kitties is also part of it, so it's a big project.  

Edited September 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

It's not so much that I don't know that teenagers didn't lead armies in the era in question, but rather the mental image I had when reading. I kept picturing a 14-year-old of today, which is more of a child because maturity works on a different scale in today's American society. Their 14-year-old would probably be closer to 18-mid twenties for us. The series helped me by jolting the mental image into one that computed a little better and that was easier to wrap my head around. A teenager in the society depicted in the books would have very different expectations of duties and maturity level and would be further along on the life expectancy scale. It was just hard to picture the right age when I was remembering being 14 and thinking of 14-year-olds I knew.

 

When I first read the Stark kids' ages I actually wondered if the length of a year was different on Planetos.  I mean, the seasons don't match up to ours, so maybe the years were longer also, say 1.5 times as long.  Arguing against that is that Sansa (among others) "flowered" about the same age as an Earthling girl would, so a year there = a year here.

[nksarmi]

From what I can find, the show aged them up a little for us with Robb and Jon being 17 (as opposed to 15), Bran being 10 instead of 7, and Rickon being 6 instead of 3. They put Sansa at 13 instead of 11 and Arya at 11 instead of 9.  Assuming that's the age they are at the start of the series, some aging has occurred over the course of the series, but not a ton.  Robb heading an army at 17/18 is not so hard to deal with nor is Jon rising to Lord Commander.  I guess this is very "American" of me, but what I find difficult to compute isn't the boys at war at this age, but the age of the characters and the levels of sex the books/show is dealing with.

 

I mean I am rather appreciative that they aged up Dany from 13 to 16 given how early she starts to take control over her sex life.  I developed early and I can't imagine having been married off and climbing on top of my husband at 13.  I'm also a little uncertain of how shocking it should be that Jon's a virgin if he is only 15 (17 works a little better).  And of course on the show they made it clear that once Sansa "flowered" she was ready to be wedded and bedded (13 vs 11 in the books).  I really think the girls got a little more time than that even in medieval history.  From what I recall of human anatomy class, the ideal physical age for a woman to start having children is more like 17 than 13 (and sure as heck not 11). 

 

I have a much easier time in general if I think of the characters as being the age the actors appear as opposed to whatever they say there are on the show.  And I have to ignore the book ages altogether.  It's like reading the Bible and trying to square with the characters in Genesis supposedly being hundreds of years old.  You just have to say "well their year could not have been the same as our year" and ignore it.  Or at least that's what I do.

[vibeology]

Okay, that would also make sense.  "Sorry we sheltered the traitor, Tywin.  But we got you this:  A broken alliance with the Frey and a possible heir to Winterfell all in one.  Are we besties again?"  because the whole "The Freys alliances are lost and we just cost Robb Stark THOUSANDS of men" thing would make a heck of "sorry we got our asses captured in the Whispering Woods there, Tywin.  To make amends, have some merry chaos."  

 

But I guess I was assuming that in this story having ridiculous amounts of foresight was kind of part of the plot.  Like whoever decided to try and kill Bran -- since it wasn't a Lannister (and was almost certainly Littlefinger) -- was cheerfully heaving  a grenade into the works, hoping to cause a destruction of the power structures.  

 

I think you're giving Tywin more credit than he has earned so far in the books. From just a book point of view, we know that before the books start he didn't really participate in Robert's rebellion until it was clear who was going to win and then in the first book he's shown up, won a minor battle but in doing so misjudged Robb's character as a battle commander and ended up in a pretty bad situation on the battlefield. Sure, he was the "hero" at the Blackwater, but he only showed up in time because his son did such a good job preparing the city for battle and if that hadn't happened, he would have been too late to save his family in King's Landing - so its a win but not really an impressive piece of foresight on his part. So if you don't know that the Red Wedding is coming (with the Frey and Bolton alliances required to make that happen), its hard to see Tywin as some master strategist who put a Westerling plot together. (Really, I think Tywin is overhyped in general and gets way more credit for his actions than he deserved. It seems to me that his reliance on extreme violence has given him a reputation that's so much bigger than his strategic actions deserve. And the fact that we hear about him mostly from his children who idolize him really helps build him up.) So on my first read through, I assumed the Westerlings saw Robb as the guy currently on top and sent Jeyne her way because it would be good for their house. 

 

Elizabeth Woodville's family fought for the Lancasters and she still married Edward IV. Its not an out there thing to happen and is the event that Robb/Jeyne seems to be based on. That had nothing to do with some larger plot to bring Edward IV down so it didn't seem likely that Robb/Jeyne's marriage was anything more than a bad choice that would alienate some of his allies.

[ambi76]

All right, so ambi, you asked what I thought of Tryion's most recent chapter, and mostly I thought that was the worst chapter out of any of the books.  George Martin's forte are NOT sex scenes and between a lot of Shae, Shae, more of Shae and Tyrion's lust for Shae (now with squeezing details) , plus a cross dressed Varys just to add to the oddity.

 

Oh man, shimpy, I can't believe how bothered you are by Tyrion's funny whor(ing). Well, she isn't that funny in the books. Though you are far from alone. Many folks have extreme problems with Shae be it the book or the show version.

 

It's strange to me though, because that relationship is just absolute background noise to me in the story. I'm probably also a strange person in finding GRRM's ankward sex scenes hilarious and fun.

I can just shake my head and laugh myself silly when people are actually disgusted/offended by things like Sam's "fat pink mast".

I'm also not quite clear what part of sex-worker Tyrion (and some readers) doesn't seem to understand. No, Mr. dwarf, she's not going to fall in love with you. You hired her for sexy-times, she's doing her job, the end. This is ASOIAF not Pretty Woman.

 

ETA: Varys is an odd cookie. But mummers are not alien to a litttle crossdressing, I guess.

Edited September 18, 2015 by ambi76

[Haleth]

When I first read the Stark kids' ages I actually wondered if the length of a year was different on Planetos.  I mean, the seasons don't match up to ours, so maybe the years were longer also, say 1.5 times as long.  Arguing against that is that Sansa (among others) "flowered" about the same age as an Earthling girl would, so a year there = a year here.

That's always been my theory too.  Not only does it help match the children in the story to their older show counterparts, but also the adults.

 

Regarding the marriage as a Tywin plot, it just seems a convoluted way to get Robb killed.  If he's already enjoying the hospitality of the Westerlings (bread and salt be damned), why not just kill him then rather than going through the mummer's farce of a wedding, ruining the marriageability of their only daughter, putting the whole family at risk at Riverrun, etc?  I agree it gives Tywin too much credit for devious plotting.

[nksarmi]

ambi, I think of sex in the books as mostly background noise as well.  As I mentioned in a previous post, it only really dings my attention if I start thinking about how old some of the characters are supposed to be (I swear, I have never been able to think of Dany as 13). 

 

And generally speaking, I love Tyrion and his dynamics with everyone else so much that I guess I largely ignored the stuff with Shae. I think it grates on the show in particular because they kind of did try to play like it was "Pretty Woman" and then in the end - they proved that it wasn't.  The book version of Shae is more believable to me, but I will admit there were times when I actually liked Show Shae.

 

But you know, I must also admit that there were times when I liked Ygritte and she seems to be all around hated by the audience.  I mean yes, "You know nothing Jon Snow" is an incredibly annoying line when repeated more than once.  But there were still times when I liked her a lot.

[Eegah]

I was surprised when I saw so many people complaining about Martin's sex scenes after finishing the then four books, but after a while I realized I've likely been completely inured to it by all the Harry Turtledove I've read. Once you've been through reading Mark Twain having awkward IKEA sex, nothing else fazes you.

[Haleth]

But you know, I must also admit that there were times when I liked Ygritte and she seems to be all around hated by the audience.  I mean yes, "You know nothing Jon Snow" is an incredibly annoying line when repeated more than once.  But there were still times when I liked her a lot.

 

I was reading the Jon chapter where he and Ygritte have sex again and again and again, and she says, "You know nothing, Jon Snow" four times in two pages.  Four times.  Gah.

[John Potts]

Yeah, unless it's tremendously well written (which is very rare), I tend to scan ahead through sex scenes to where the plot gets restarted, only occasionally pausing to go, "People DO that? Why? And why would anyone LET them?*". Show!Shae bugged me with her repeatedly accusing Tyrion "I'm just a whore to you!" because you so want him to answer, "Yes? I mean I don't want to see you executed by my dad, but ultimately you're here to keep me warm in bed. You were expecting something else?" I don't recall Book!Shae being so needy but Tyrion gets equally annoying later

with his whole "What happened to Tysha?" and "Where do whores go?" since I'd initially assumed she'd died from the experience and by "Where whores go", Tywin meant the Sevens' version of Hell. But even if she didn't die from being gang raped, the odds of a random whore** surviving through the years since their marriage seem pretty poor

.

 

As for the Westerlings, I assume they were trying to play both sides at once. If Robb succeeded in dethroning the Lannisters, their daughter was now Queen of the North. If Tywin won, then their interference helped wreck Robb's Alliance with the Freys (and they could play the marriage as "Rapacious Northerners despoiling their daughter" as well). Either way would be petty cynical, but that's par for the course.

 

* Well, the answer to the last may well be "Because they paid enough"

** At least, that's what I assume Tysha's likely fate would be. I suppose it's possible she was taken in by the Silent Sisters or something, but almost certainly any marriage would be out of the question

[stillshimpy]

Heh, see that's why I didn't notice much about it, ambi, I skim those chapters and it's not that the sex scenes bother me as much as they reduce a female character to her bits and parts, which is bad enough, but then dwells on why they are the most powerful things this person wields.  For anyone who argues that Martin could be construed as a feminist writer, that's a little problematic.  It's easy to say, "Well, she's just working within the only game available to her" and that would be true, but it's hardly the stuff empowerment or creative female characterizations.   Aside from a lot of willing orifices, Shae barely qualifies as a character. 

 

 

 

Elizabeth Woodville's family fought for the Lancasters and she still married Edward IV. Its not an out there thing to happen and is the event that Robb/Jeyne seems to be based on. That had nothing to do with some larger plot to bring Edward IV down so it didn't seem likely that Robb/Jeyne's marriage was anything more than a bad choice that would alienate some of his allies.

 

Now, this could soon change, but as it stands, Jeyne has little in common with Elizabeth Woodville, although I take it the comparison is made because Woodville was one of the reasons the Earl of Warwick essentially defected during the Wars of the Roses (Frey, however, is pretty clearly not based on the Earl of Warwick).   

 

But there are a bunch of other reasons Jeyne Westerling can't be based on Elizabeth Woodville, starting with, but in no way limited to, Elizabeth's first husband fought for the Lancaster side.  Also, Elizabeth Woodville was one of Henry VII's supporters.  The only thing Jeyne Westerling has in common with Elizabeth Woodville  is that they are both female and from relatively minor houses, but among other things, Elizabeth had children from her first marriage and from her marriage with Edward also.  Edward didn't marry her because he'd spoiled her honor, for another, and for still another....her daughter married Henry VII, the first Tudor King.  

 

So at present the only thing Westerling seems to have in common with Elizabeth Wydeville is that her marriage eventually broke an alliance with a powerful man....who has no resemblance to Frey (other than...they are both dudes...and it's not like Bolton makes a good stand-in for Warwick either) , it was later argued that Edward IV couldn't marry her because he was engaged to another person and that contract hadn't been broken (which actually had to do with having her children with Edward declared illegitimate in yet another scramble for power).  

 

I get that no one is going to be a dead-ringer for any of these historical figures and that Martin is only sort of telling the history of The Wars of the Roses (now with Dragons!) , but that's not an apt comparison and Robb has almost nothing in common with Edward IV....by...an incredible lot actually.  Basically all they have in common is a connection to the North, as near as I can tell. 

 

Anyway, we'll see, but the Jeyne and Robb being based on that doesn't stand up to even passing scrutiny, unless it's going to be revealed that she had been married, did have children....?  Which I guess I get to that when and if, so please don't answer just yet. 

 

ETA:  Heh and I'm over here driving myself nuts trying to figure out how it could be speculated that Robb and Jeyne were based on Edward IV and Elizabeth Wydeville, and for the moment I'm just going to have to assume that there are details in the offing on that.  So that's yet another "I guess I will have to wait and see...?" 

 

And here's why it is blowing my mind:  Edward IV reigned for years and whereas his reign was interrupted, he was actually restored to the throne, so that's why I'm so entirely gobsmacked by that one.  Robb's set to die in about the time it takes to bake a wedding cake, so Robb really doesn't work as Edward IV at all. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[vibeology]

I wasn't saying, and I probably could have been clearer in this regard, that Jeyne=Elizabeth, only that the act of a king secretly marrying a minor noble who actually hurts his cause and destroys an alliance is borrowed from Edward IV and Elizabeth. Martin doesn't have many 1 to 1 matches with the War if the Roses but he borrows traits and ideas often and more than once.

I do think Robb shares enough with young Edward IV that it's no coincidence. A huge success on the battlefield, fighting to avenge his father, ties to the North. Martin took pieces just like he took old Edward IV for King Robert. Fat, drunk, likes to sleep around while having this history as an epic warrior king. I was just trying to point out that secret stupid marriages do happen without being a conspiracy from the start so readers looking at that historical background might not jump to Tywin did it.

[stillshimpy]

I do think Robb shares enough with young Edward IV that it's no coincidence.

 

Yeah, I just don't agree with that.  There are a few things that they share:  good strategist and tactician and from the North, but even the "fighting to avenge his father"....eh....sort of....?  Richard died in battle and had made his own claim for the throne.   Robert Baratheon has a fair amount in common -- including his height and a brother that was key to his victory, but Robert Baratheon isn't a complete match-up either, just a much a closer one. 

 

Drawing an event here and there from history is something I can see and grant you (Margaery Hot Potato Tyrell makes me laugh for the number of queens she was clearly constructed from....she's quite the hodgepodge of source material), but seeing as Robb's marriage is about to get him killed and there's actually a pretty strong argument to be made that Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville/Wydeville was a good and even cold-blooded tactical move (although alleged to be for love) despite alienating Warwick, it doesn't have much in common.  

 

Nothing is going to completely match up and thank goodness for that, but that one just doesn't fit for me.  Maybe my opinion will change as time goes on and I read more, but at present it just doesn't have much in common at all.  

 

Admittedly, some of the historical comparisons may seem a better fit when viewed from the "I've read all the books and can now see the threads" perspective, but at present, and from what I know in the show?  I think that's too much of a stretch. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[chandraReborn]

Eh, I kind of think what we see of Shae is really more colored by Tyrion's POV than anything. To me, she's clearly just an impoverished young girl who's in over her head and trying her best to milk the scenario for all it's worth. It's Tyrion who's sexist, not the narrative (how I see it.)

[stillshimpy]

It's Tyrion who's sexist, not the narrative (how I see it.)

 

That's a fair point.  It just doesn't make it any more enjoyable for me to read.  

 

Now, I must get my head out of the Wars of the Roses, back on spay/neutering and all the attendant fun that goes along with any kind of "Hey, let's solve this problem, shall we, it's relatively simple, so of course it's going to be a metric fuckton's of work and headaches." 

 

Again, I'll wait and see and keep in mind the comparison, because whereas I know what the show did with it, I still haven't seen what the book is going to do.  

Edited September 18, 2015 by stillshimpy

[nksarmi]

Eh, I kind of think what we see of Shae is really more colored by Tyrion's POV than anything. To me, she's clearly just an impoverished young girl who's in over her head and trying her best to milk the scenario for all it's worth. It's Tyrion who's sexist, not the narrative (how I see it.)

 

Yes but they really tried to do something else with Show Shae.  And I don't know if that's so much the white washing of Tyrion or somehow the writers really felt like there was a heart connection beneath the fact that he was paying her.  I mean, if I recall correctly in the books, Tyrion takes a much more reasonable approach to where he keeps Shae and how often he sees her as opposed to the show where he is just down right smitten with her. 

 

While book Tyrion has a real affection for Shae - more than he should really - he does seem to realize on some level that she is with him because he is paying her.  If anything, after the Battle at the Blackwater, I suspect he believes no woman would want to be with him if he wasn't paying them.  That and the presence of Tywin makes Tyrion more needy than previous books.  Not for shimpy:

Unfortunately in the next book he gets so much worse. I am rather glad the show skipped over much of that emotional journey. That is one "whitewash" I couldn't even begin to complain about.

 

Furthermore, on the show it seems like Shae also forgets they have a business arrangement and views him as a lover who is betraying her when he tries to send her away.  To me, in the books, she is much more pragmatic about what they are to each other.

Edited September 18, 2015 by nksarmi

[Haleth]

Shimpy, I think you will drive yourself crazy if you try to match Martin's charters and events to real historical counterparts. I think his use of the War of the Roses as an inspiration was only for the broadest of plots... two warring families with a vaguely English throne at stake.

[Dev F]

Yes but they really tried to do something else with Show Shae.  And I don't know if that's so much the white washing of Tyrion or somehow the writers really felt like there was a heart connection beneath the fact that he was paying her.

 

I don't think the fact that book!Shae is purely self-interested would've been lost on the writers. The problem is that this would've been an incredibly difficult thing to dramatize. In the books, you see Shae only through Tyrion's eyes, so it's possible to conceal her shallowness beneath Tyrion's delusions about her. In the show, there would be no way to hide it. You'd just have an actress playing "gold-digging prostitute" for year after year. It would be a thankless task for the performer and a tiresome thing for viewers to sit through, and it would risk making Tyrion look like a complete imbecile for not noticing what would immediately be obvious to everyone in the audience.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Dev F

[ambi76]

Um, yeah, but IMHO the issue is not so much that GRRM may or may not be a creep, but that Tyrion is definitely a creep when it comes to women. Sorry.

 

And I don't really see the problem so many have with the role of the not so bright selfish prostitute. There are way worse characters in this story.

Edited September 18, 2015 by ambi76

[jellyroll2]

Agree with Haleth. I think the Edward/Elizabeth comparison was just a broad strokes comparison as the overall situation is similar. Nothing and no one in this story is a direct correlation to anything historical. So while I do get the "the situations aren't remotely the same because the circumstances are so different" stance, I don't think that's what is being argued. Just the general, broad "a king can marry a minor noble in secret which actually hurts his cause in some ways" scenario can and does happen without it being a plot to destroy him. Just because the Edward situation turned out differently from the Robb situation doesn't mean the comparison can't work. But everyone views this story is their own way LOL.

 

I definitely think the show tried to make Shae/Tyrion more a romance than it actually was. I always viewed Shae as being the pragmatic one, recognizing the "relationship" for exactly what it was - a business arrangement. And she was going to make it work and last for as long as she could and as long as the money kept coming. Tyrion wasn't even as besotted with her in the books as he is in the show, though he does get very clingy and needy as it goes on. So I think seeing in the books that it was not some doomed romance can be a bit jarring.

 

Ygritte had her strong suits in book and show. But the fact that her every response to something he says is "You know nothing, Jon Snow" drove me insane. That was her answer to absolutely everything. Talk about killing someone's self esteem.

Edited September 18, 2015 by jellyroll2

[Lady S.]

This is a question but I'm spoiler tagging just in case because I can't recall when we learn background info on Jeyne's family.

Didn't Jeyne's father marry her mother for her money? And didn't she marry him to boost her social status? Or was it a grandmother who had the Spicer money? This just seems to go in line with the Westerlings being opportunists in general.

Sybell's grandma was Maggy the Frog, and her family's money came recently from being spicers. Both things House Spicer was looked down on for, but Lord Westerling was too poor to care.

 

I think you're giving Tywin more credit than he has earned so far in the books. From just a book point of view, we know that before the books start he didn't really participate in Robert's rebellion until it was clear who was going to win and then in the first book he's shown up, won a minor battle but in doing so misjudged Robb's character as a battle commander and ended up in a pretty bad situation on the battlefield. Sure, he was the "hero" at the Blackwater, but he only showed up in time because his son did such a good job preparing the city for battle and if that hadn't happened, he would have been too late to save his family in King's Landing - so its a win but not really an impressive piece of foresight on his part. So if you don't know that the Red Wedding is coming (with the Frey and Bolton alliances required to make that happen), its hard to see Tywin as some master strategist who put a Westerling plot together.

Yeah, Tywin is great at manipulating people and seizing opportunities, but he hasn't really shown any LF or Varys-level foresight. He'd have to guess that Robb would assault the Crag, that he would be injured doing so, and that his hormones would win out with a pretty, young lady dropped in his lap (which actually needed the extra element of grief to occur). He'd have to have this plan before Robb's army took the Crag because I imagine it would be harder for any plotting to get done by ravenmail after the castle was captured. Robb may have been bedridden but he still had an army to occupy the castle, they had defeated the garrison in the assault (and presumably disarmed the survivors who surrendered) so the family were no longer masters of their home. They would have to be on their own to take advantage of the situation, and cover their asses with Tywin after becoming part of Robb's household, as Dev F. suggested. And Tywin was already busy trying to march west to meet Robb (where he was interrupted by Edmure at the fords) around the same time Robb would have been capturing the Crag or marching to it.

 

The Boltons and Theon didn't need Tywin's instructions to screw over Robb, so it's not too hard to believe the Spicers (Jeyne's mother and maternal uncle, the ones Grey Wind didn't get along with) could be cunning on their own to undermine the KitN. Lysa's refusal to help her family at all, the Greyjoy invasion, the Sack of Winterfell, Bran and Rickon's "deaths", Edmure's choice to remove the northerners guarding the Twins and the way his defeat of Tywin helped Tywin more than it hurt him, and Catelyn's decision to release Jaime were all things Tywin just lucked out on, just as he did with the Tyrell alliance arranged by Tyrion and Littlefinger. All of those things had to happen together to make the RW possible (and Tywin couldn't have predicted all of the elements), if any one of the variables were different it could have mitigated the other shit, and Robb could have gone back North where it would be near impossible for Tywin to get to him. 

Edited September 18, 2015 by Lady S.

[chandraReborn]

Basically, I think Tywin takes credit for a lot more than he actually does, because taking the credit is politically expedient for him. 

[mac123x]

Ygritte had her strong suits in book and show. But the fact that her every response to something he says is "You know nothing, Jon Snow" drove me insane. That was her answer to absolutely everything. Talk about killing someone's self esteem.

 

It was quite grating. When Jon showed some ignorance about Wildling culture, she'd make fun of him.  When she showed ignorance about the Seven Kingdoms and he corrected her, she'd still make fun of him for it.  She came across as a self-absorbed, rigid jingoist:  the Wildling way is the only way and everything else is crap. 

 

It was a little better in the show, since Rose Leslie gave it a "good-natured teasing" lilt to it.  And she didn't say it nearly as often.

Edited September 18, 2015 by mac123x

[nksarmi]

It was quite grating. When Jon showed some ignorance about Wildling culture, she'd make fun of him.  When she showed ignorance about the Seven Kingdoms and he corrected her, she'd still make fun of him for it.  She came across as a self-absorbed, rigid jingoist:  the Wildling way is the only way and everything else is crap. 

 

It was a little better in the show, since Rose Leslie gave it a "good-natured teasing" lilt to it.  And she didn't say it nearly as often.

And she still said it too much lol.  But I still kind of liked Jon and Ygritte even if I was a little relieved that I'd never have to hear "You know nothing, Jon Snow" when she died.  And then along came a spider, I mean Mel.  I was actually pissed when she said that lol.