Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

WindyNights · April 3, 2016

They showed Loras beat the Mountain, but they also showed that he cheated. They also established that he unseated Jaime Lannister, who was considered the world's greatest jouster and swordsman. Loras did get his butt kicked by Brienne of Tarth, but so does everyone.

Jaime isn't the world's greatest jouster. At best he's a good one.

And I wouldn't say he's greatest swordsman either as Barristan Selmy in his prime is his equal or better and Barristan finds some boy in Meereen who he thinks has the same potential as Jaime.

GertrudeDR · April 3, 2016

I don't think the average viewer remembers Loras as a great fighter. I do think people would equate jousting to fighting in general, but the last scene we saw of him actually fighting was early in season 2 and Brienne had just whupped him. They have showed him in armor practicing, but mostly i think an audience will remember him romping around in bed, or moping about fringed sleeves. The character is irretrievable damaged.

Having said that, it's a show that likes to take shortcuts instead of earned moments, so if they just have someone talk about what a great fighter Loras is, he's a great fighter and that's that. They can also say that he's been weakened by imprisonment ala Jaime and that's that. Whatever the show wants or needs, it will do.

Edited April 3, 2016 by GertrudeDR

Alayne Stone · April 3, 2016

TBH I'm not that worried about Jorah in the show, at least not yet anyway. Saying "they had a glazed expression every time you mention the books" is a far cry from McShane blatantly spoiling a supposed dead character's status as alive and remarking on the show being nothing more than "tits and dragons" and Dillaine's comment that the show never made sense to him or that he never understood its popularity.

In fact, and somewhat ironically I might add, I think the fact that he got the greyscale storyline kind of cements his status for being alive through at least one more season. Because I'm pretty sure greyscale is going to end up spreading throughout Westeros in both the books and show. So he'll have to survive at least until Dany reaches Westeros.

I can't imagine Loras being the character GRRM told them not to kill at the end of Blackwater. He's kind of necessary for the deus-ex machine type saving of the city by Lannister/Tyrell forces and I have seen no evidence that the character is the least bit valued to the show.

I'm glad to hear the actress playing Nymeria will also be in Iron Fist. Good for her. This really does beg the question of what they even intend to do with Dorne at this point in the show. Will any of the Sand Snakes be dispatched to King's Landing like in the books? I can't see Trystane being anything other than a hostage in King's Landing.

Avaleigh · April 3, 2016

I think Jorah will die this season. Show spoilers for season 5.

I'm guessing that he'll infect someone and that's how it gets to Westeros. Possibly Missandei. I'm pretty sure that he touched her.

Alayne Stone · April 4, 2016

Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll touch Dario this season.

Hecate7 · April 4, 2016

Jaime isn't the world's greatest jouster. At best he's a good one.

And I wouldn't say he's greatest swordsman either as Barristan Selmy in his prime is his equal or better and Barristan finds some boy in Meereen who he thinks has the same potential as Jaime.

Potential to be as great as Jaime was when he had his hand. Barristan Selmy USED to be as great as Jaime was, when he had his hand. Jaime was the greatest swordsman and jouster of his generation. Loras is the new generation, and probably not even as good as Jaime. Selmy was the previous generation--USED TO be as good as Jaime.

It's significant that Barristan's highest praise for a talented new find, is that the kid has the POTENTIAL of a Jaime Lannister.

Terra Nova · April 4, 2016

@OhOkayWhat:

Oh, ok, I slightly misunderstood your previous comment, but yep, I think it's a case of different interpretations on that quote; IMHO he wouldn't say smt that could have been seen as a critic to the showrunner if he was still on he show. We (well, you guys) will see :)

@Alayne: I think that Nymeria is so marginal that even if she reappears on screen it won't be a problem for the actress and her schedule. I mean, even if Loras dies the actor has to film at least a couple of scenes before he's done.

That said, D&D just said that they didn't change a single thing after last year critics, so I think we will have Dorne again... at least they will show us Ellaria's head on a spike, since she' totes toast after what she's done, right?

WSmith84 · April 4, 2016

@Alayne: I think that Nymeria is so marginal that even if she reappears on screen it won't be a problem for the actress and her schedule. I mean, even if Loras dies the actor has to film at least a couple of scenes before he's done.

That said, D&D just said that they didn't change a single thing after last year critics, so I think we will have Dorne again... at least they will show us Ellaria's head on a spike, since she' totes toast after what she's done, right?

That would be the logical thing, but show Dorne doesn't seem to operate on logic.

So I rewatched season 2 and it's a lot worse than I remembered. Jon's stuff is sooooooo weak; the Halfhand is so forgettable that I actually didn't recognise the character. I really think the on-site filming hurt the actors' performances as well. Might have been a better idea to sacrifice the stunning visuals in exchange for a more coherent plot and better characterisation. Daenerys' plot is also poor, though the show had weaker material to draw from in that instance. Talisa Medicine Woman is as ridiculous as she ever was, but whatever. The Blackwater is still fantastic however.

DigitalCount · April 4, 2016

I've never particularly understood why Talisa gets so much hate. I understand that she is the girl anachronism, but I don't think it really hurt my viewing experience that much. I never really got into Song!Robb as a character, so his book story did nothing for me. I actually felt much more engaged watching the show version, and that had very little to do with Oona Chaplin's breathtaking beauty. I didn't say "nothing," but I did say "very little."

GertrudeDR · April 5, 2016

I don't know if I can put why I didn't like her into words. Part of it, I am sure, is because it was a difference from the books. They had been pretty faithful in season 1 and we were primed for a faithful adaptation. It was different than, say, the differences in Dany's story. Dany didn't have much so it was understandable that they had to give a TV character something to do. Talisa wasn't something added as filler - she was changed for no discernible reason. It's also how Robb's decision was so tied up in his grief over the boys, but the show never bothered to even give him or Cat this news, so that was also tied up in my dislike.

I was also watching her side-eyed because I wasn't sure what her angle was. What were they taking from the book and what were the leaving on the floor - was she a Lannister agent? (the Honeypot theory was a thing). Her being anachronistic was problematic for me mainly because she stuck out like a sore thumb. This is harder to explain, but it wasn't even her sassy, independent persona. It was that they tried really hard to show us why Robb would throw away a Kingdom for this girl but I never felt like she was a real person in this world. She was a package of attractive traits and a delivery vehicle for lines. This is probably because of all the other problems I had with her insertion into this story, but I never bought into her as her own person.

I disliked her, but didn't hate her. I was mainly confused and disappointed at the decisions that led to having her there instead of Jeyne. I do think Talisa was a big change and an easy thing to focus on if you were disillusioned in the way the show was headed, so some people probably voice hatred of Talisa because it's easier to shorthand everything they dislike by pointing to an obvious example.

Edited April 5, 2016 by GertrudeDR

Terra Nova · April 5, 2016

Because it seemed thet thought Jeyne Westerling too passive and feminine for Robb. Instead a sassy girl who talks back to the King and despise arranging feasts and other 'girly' stuff is worthier. This is just like how the replaced the other Jeyne because they thought the audience wouldn't be invested in her (which goes exactly against her point in the book)

Because she betrayed their own setting ('Westeros is a though world and of course women get raped') by having her walk unattended on the battlefield and free to sneak into whichever encampment she fancied.

Because it was more than hinted she could have been a spy, only for her to be stabbed in her swollen belly for SHOCK! I also do not regard their love story that succesfully told: they talk, she's sassy and whops! They are rolling naked on the floor. This cannot be the soulcrushing love story they tried to sold us.

Because she made Robb look like a whiny brat who didn't want to make sacrifices for his kingdom and instead put the blame on Catelyn - who in turn vets sidelined so to get more screentime to Talisa -.

Finally, it showed how willing they were to change the story, a bad omen for what was yet to come.

Bibliography:

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/142072695202/you-have-criticized-talisas-character-a-couple-of

http://starkalypse.com/post/39295219266/if-you-like-talisa-or-robb-dont-read-this

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/130331693072/a-waste-of-time

http://jonconsredbeard.tumblr.com/post/130359778667/whats-the-problem-with-talisa-or-how-people#notes

Edited April 5, 2016 by Terra Nova

Advance35 · April 5, 2016

I've never particularly understood why Talisa gets so much hate. I understand that she is the girl anachronism, but I don't think it really hurt my viewing experience that much. I never really got into Song!Robb as a character, so his book story did nothing for me. I actually felt much more engaged watching the show version, and that had very little to do with Oona Chaplin's breathtaking beauty. I didn't say "nothing," but I did say "very little."

I have a similar reaction. I hated book!Robb when we learn he got involved with Jeyne Westerling. The "King in the North" wasting his value as a marriage piece on the daughter of a Lannister Bannerman? The only reason I felt bad at the red wedding in the books was because of what it mean't for the North and specifically Catelyn and Sansa. In the television version I was able to feel for Robb Stark as well so I counted that as an improvement. Having said that, I wasn't super into their story, I didn't really find interest in the North or the Northern Characters until Sansa's Season 5 Storyline. But again, at least in the television version I was able to feel something for the Robb character and I actually felt for Talisa herself.

stillshimpy · April 5, 2016

So I rewatched season 2 and it's a lot worse than I remembered. Jon's stuff is sooooooo weak; the Halfhand is so forgettable that I actually didn't recognise the character. I really think the on-site filming hurt the actors' performances as well. Might have been a better idea to sacrifice the stunning visuals in exchange for a more coherent plot and better characterisation. Daenerys' plot is also poor, though the show had weaker material to draw from in that instance. Talisa Medicine Woman is as ridiculous as she ever was, but whatever. The Blackwater is still fantastic however.

Okay, it's not just me.

I haven't been saying anything about season two because I've been stumped for what to say. The show chose to focus on the horrific aspects of the story, kind of a lot. I can't stand the Iron Islanders in the books either, but they really come off like something from a humorless knockoff Python Skit. One of the problems from the books rears its ugly head in the series: Why in the hell would Yoren even take the motley crew from the dungeons to The Wall? This is not a world that is against capital punishment. Dudes that bad don't get sent to The Wall or given that choice. They're killed. It was also a problem with Martin's story. He included senselessness to up the horror there.

I kind of get why they changed Robb Stark's story so much, although you know, whereas Talisa is equally a "No one has that much disbelief available for suspension, dude" character when it comes to her activities , I think they had to do something with Robb's character to help bring him to life a little. I loved Robb in the books, but he's a pure martyr on the altar of honor in all respects. In the books he's Ned part deux and then he's sacrificed like a lamb.

I love lawful good characters, I just do. I'm sick to death of gritty for the sake of it. Unfortunately, they didn't grit up Robb's story as much as they grimed it up. Yes, what Catelyn does is just fucking stupid, but it's also at least a little understandable, because even though the series doesn't show her ever learning of Bran and Rickon's fate, she knows the people who murdered her husband have her two daughters. She showed terrible judgment, but it was born of desperation and at least in the TV show, Jaime Lannister was going to die there at the hands of Robb's men.

Talisa I just don't mind and never did. Here's why: in the show I just fanwanked it that Robb understood they were all doomed once he had to kill Karstark and his mother freed Jaime. His terms for peace are rejected and in the show, prior to reading the books, I was able to tilt my head just-so and see it as "Oh fuck it, we're all going to die in this endeavor anyway, I'm going to be happy. I will not marry the Woofer Frey to be named later, I will marry the girl who doesn't even have enough sense to put her hair up, or back, while attending to the wounded (the only thing that drove me nuts about Talisa)." I was able to believe that right up until he practically made out with Talisa during the Red Wedding.

Also, I'd actually forgotten how terrible the pacing was on Jon's story and the endless dwelling at Craster's Camp for Incest and Sexual Abuse. Or how much I just hated Sam's "Need me to do something? Yeah, well if it is anything other than fall on my face, you're hosed brother *thud* Ground check with my face!" story.

Okay, so yesterday my news feed was full of "Kit Harrington and Rose Leslie are a couple!" ....uh, yes. I mean, I knew that as an Unsullied, so what the fuck, world? They made it super clear in that cute charity video where he sang Wildling and had about fifty times the amount of chemistry they had on the show....where they just looked like they were too damned cold to even think a lusty thought. That charity video was even watched by the Unsullied, so the newsflash yesterday seemed to come out of the mists of time.

I'm truly sorry, because I actually don't do the whole "I'm watching for the snark" "I pretty much hate watch this show" stuff. Life is short, if I hate something, I move on and during the original run of the show I was not enamored of season two anyway, but at least I had fun talking about it. On the rewatch I've mostly been distracted by "Huh, this isn't actually a good story, when you get right down to it, is it?" Dany wanders and is dirty for kind of a long time, then she bellows about taking what is hers and Pyatt Pree (who looks like Gonzo from the Muppet Show, Casting Directors) is flambed by a creature that is smaller than a roasting chicken.

Also, girls are duplicitous!! So much for your loyal handmaidens, Dany! Brienne enters and is one of the few bright spots in the season. Melisandre has boobs, yo! Want to see them again? How about again? Once more? Twice? Eleventy Billion? Don't show them to Renly!! He fears the girl parts!!

That's actually not the fault of the books. Talisa is actually one of the least of the problems with season two. It starts to challenge the logic of that world on too many levels.

Edited April 5, 2016 by stillshimpy

WSmith84 · April 5, 2016

I disliked Talisa for several reasons. I hadn't actually read Storm by the time I watched season 2, but I knew as soon as she appeared on screen that she and Robb would fall in love and bla, bla, bla. So that annoyed me, for starters. But she's barely a character in her own right; just because you make a character sassy and 'not like other girls!' does not mean she's a fully-rounded character. Hell, Talisa barely scratches 2D. Now I also watch it with the thought of 'well, you're going to be needlessly and gratuitously murdered whilst pregnant' going through my head, so that's... that. And I'm with Terra Nova on this one; sassy remarks and a naked roll on the ground do not a love story make.

But yeah, Jon's stuff is really poor. I remember shimpy saying that she shed a tear or two for the men of the NW in Clash. I think it was for the guy who asked for an apple for his mule whilst he went off to die. In the show I don't even think they got named.

vibeology · April 5, 2016

There is definitely worse in season two than Talisa. I hate Jon's plot the most with Dany coming in right behind him. Still, Talisa bugged me because it felt like I was loosing Catelyn's story in exchange for a poorly done love story. We get some of Catelyn's stuff, but I feel like most of the tension between Catelyn and Robb is gone here because the show is using Robb for something else. I think the writers could have beefed up Robb's part by doing more with the idea of the tension between a boy who is used to listening to his mother and a King who needs to be seen as in charge. That's more interesting than a battlefield meet cute and the obvious countdown to the two characters getting together.

Still, King's Landing is wonderful in season two. All the lead up to Blackwater is tense and interesting and the battle itself one of the best things the show has ever done.

GertrudeDR · April 5, 2016

Still, Talisa bugged me because it felt like I was loosing Catelyn's story in exchange for a poorly done love story. We get some of Catelyn's stuff, but I feel like most of the tension between Catelyn and Robb is gone here because the show is using Robb for something else.

This is also a very good point. Lots of Cat fans were raging over this season and I certainly was disappointed that Cat was reduced to an afterthought.

The Qhorin stuff was so very disappointing. Again, it was like they sacrificed Qhorin for the sake of more Ygritte sassing Jon. In the end, it just makes Jon's act of killing Qhorin look half-assed. It wasn't made clear why he killed him in that moment - there was plenty of room to interpret it as impulsive rather than a rational choice.

Season 2 was generally regarded as the weakest season until season 5. I think 5 had more good moments than 2, but was overall worse. I will agree that Blackwater was a beautiful episode. Cersei was fantastic.

Lady S. · April 5, 2016

Okay, so yesterday my news feed was full of "Kit Harrington and Rose Leslie are a couple!" ....uh, yes. I mean, I knew that as an Unsullied, so what the fuck, world? They made it super clear in that cute charity video where he sang Wildling and had about fifty times the amount of chemistry they had on the show....where they just looked like they were too damned cold to even think a lusty thought. That charity video was even watched by the Unsullied, so the newsflash yesterday seemed to come out of the mists of time.

Yeah, they've been on-again/off-again since 2012, but suddenly this was their first official red carpet appearance as a couple or something. I guess it's good that that's one less secret Kitten has to try to keep.

This is also a very good point. Lots of Cat fans were raging over this season and I certainly was disappointed that Cat was reduced to an afterthought.

I didn't mind Talisa much in s2, but I did in s3 when Cat had less speaking lines than Shae or the BwB and was only really treated as a main character in 3.09 itself. D&D clearly thought the tragedy of the Red Wedding was the ending of Robb's twu wuv story. (At the time I thought their stupid reasoning was that Catelyn's death wasn't as important because she didn't stay dead, but nope, apparently not.) Re-watching s2 is more annoying because you can tell that the shift in focus was set up right from the start with Talisa discussing the war with Robb in their meet-cute, when conflict over Robb's war aims was a major aspect of Robb/Catelyn scenes. It's also more annoying when you know Talisa never actually gets developed into a coherent character and solely exists to be stabbed in the baby-cooker.

Chris24601 · April 5, 2016

Season 2 was generally regarded as the weakest season until season 5. I think 5 had more good moments than 2, but was overall worse. I will agree that Blackwater was a beautiful episode. Cersei was fantastic.

I'll definitely agree with that assessment. My friends and I are further along on the rewatch, but I'd definitely say that seasons three and four are the quality that really put the series on the map. Season two was definitely a sophomore slump.

My feelings on season five are a bit harder to judge though, in large part because so much was left as cliffhangers. On its own its just depressing (with cool moments interspersed), but If season six starts to see a turnaround for the likeable protagonists then I think season five's darkness will be more easily justified within the entire eight-season narrative as the end of the second act nadir point where the heroes have to lose everything before they come back stronger and win in the third act.

mac123x · April 5, 2016

I disliked Talisa because of her raging sanctimony. Virtually her first conversation with Robb was "war! huh! good gods, what is it good for? Absolutely nuthin'", and Robb didn't give an adequate response. She came across as an antiwar mouthpiece for the writers, and I didn't like being preached at. I wouldn't have minded her chastising Robb for the horrors of war that are inflicted on the common soldiers, if they'd had a real conversation about why it was necessary. But no, we get an author filibuster spewing from her mouth.

Robb had real, justifiable reasons for the war, and he should have articulated them. Instead, he was just awestruck by her pluckiness.

Terra Nova · April 5, 2016

Worse, she scolded Robb for not knowing what he wanted to do after overthrowing and killing Joffrey and Robb was too dumbstruck to say a thing. So for Talisa to shine Robb had to have a sudden brain edema or something along those lines. It's such an illogical way to frame it, because Robb is fighting for an independent North, so of course he plans to rule and defend it once the was is over. But no, suddenly he's an idiot who wants to slay Joffrey for reveeeeeenge and then? who knows!

This is what Martin said about plucky farmgirls:

They [bad fantasy authors] have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Terra Nova

WindyNights · April 6, 2016

The idea that they could've done more with Robb with a different approach is on the money.

Theyr should've focused more on Robb being a young boy trying to shoulder the responsibilities of a man and King. I would've liked more focus on his learning and adapting.

One thing I wish had really made it in is his conversation with Cat right before the Red Wedding where he talks about the Mudds, his heir, what he thought being a king was about and where he stubbornly refuses to make peace with the Lannisters .

feverfew · April 6, 2016

I'll definitely agree with that assessment. My friends and I are further along on the rewatch, but I'd definitely say that seasons three and four are the quality that really put the series on the map. Season two was definitely a sophomore slump.

My feelings on season five are a bit harder to judge though, in large part because so much was left as cliffhangers. On its own its just depressing (with cool moments interspersed), but If season six starts to see a turnaround for the likeable protagonists then I think season five's darkness will be more easily justified within the entire eight-season narrative as the end of the second act nadir point where the heroes have to lose everything before they come back stronger and win in the third act.

Season two is my least favourite too. Me and my friends tend to skip most episodes in that season when we do our rewatches. As for season five leading into season six, this eternal optimist thinks (hopes!) you're right, and it was just a case of "darkest before dawn".

Theyr should've focused more on Robb being a young boy trying to shoulder the responsibilities of a man and King. I would've liked more focus on his learning and adapting.

One thing I wish had really made it in is his conversation with Cat right before the Red Wedding where he talks about the Mudds, his heir, what he thought being a king was about and where he stubbornly refuses to make peace with the Lannisters .

This is another place where the casting makes that impossible. Because Richard Madden does not in any way or form look like a young boy. In the books he is, what? 14? 15? It makes sense for readers that a 15 year old boy will have to learn his way and will make serious mistakes along the road. But visually we would have had the same perception issues with Madden-as-apprentice-king as we did with "moody, emo" Jon Snow in the first season. Maybe even more so, since Kit still had some babyfat in his face in season one, while Madden looked like a fully grown man from day one.

I would have loved your spec, I just don't think it was ever feasible with those actors.

glowbug · April 6, 2016

This is another place where the casting makes that impossible. Because Richard Madden does not in any way or form look like a young boy. In the books he is, what? 14? 15? It makes sense for readers that a 15 year old boy will have to learn his way and will make serious mistakes along the road. But visually we would have had the same perception issues with Madden-as-apprentice-king as we did with "moody, emo" Jon Snow in the first season. Maybe even more so, since Kit still had some babyfat in his face in season one, while Madden looked like a fully grown man from day one.

I would have loved your spec, I just don't think it was ever feasible with those actors.

This. As i said with regard to Jon, aging the characters up to seventeen made a lot of sense—I really feel like all of the characters in the book read as though they're a few years older than they actually are and in some cases more than a few years—but they really should have cast actors that looked like they were "hollywood 16/17" meaning they really look 18 or 19. Both Kit Harrington and Richard Madden were in their early to mid twenties and looked it. In fact, both of them looked even a bit older than their actual ages, IMO. They're both fine actors, and I agree with shimpy that Harrington has grown into the role, but both look ridiculous when playing immature boys.

Season two and five were the weakest seasons of the show. I feel like the best of season five was far better than anything we saw in season two, however, the worst was so much worse that overall it was the worst season. I actually almost gave up on the show after season two. Had my love of season one not possessed to the read the books I probably wouldn't have continued on.

I hate to beat a dead horse (horrible expression—remind me to think of another equivalent expression when I'm not quite so tired) but I'm one of those who vehemently hated Talisa, in part because the character herself was so problematic but also because who storyline was awful and her affect on Robb's character. As other have pointed out, Talisa as a character was unrealistic for the setting, completely two dimensional, and one of the biggest clichés in all of fantasy literature. I mean, she literally could have stepped off the page of some historical harlequin romance novel. The romance between her and Robb was so completely unbelievable, shallow and predictable. And don't get me started on the melodramatic, manipulative decision to make her pregnant before killing her off. It was such a Hollywood move and so beneath this show.

Perhaps it's not fair, but I also blame her character for her affect on Robb. His actions in regards to her made me hate him to the point where I didn't care if he died. He purposefully, out of sheer selfishness, decided to put his men's lives in danger so that he could marry for true love. He didn't deserve to be king, nor did he deserve any loyalty from his men once he did that. The only reason I didn't want him to die on the show was because it meant the Lannisters were winning and because it would hurt characters I actually cared about. At least Book Robb, though he also made bad decisions, was more sympathetic. He was grieving over the deaths of his brothers and put himself into a rock and hard place situation. He was at least remorseful for his actions instead of self righteous about them.

I wish the writers had just gone with the Jeyne plot line. I know it wasn't as melodramatic but I feel like they had a lot to work with in terms of her family's scheming and the questions that could be raised about her involvement in it. They could have fleshed that out more instead of giving us the Talisa mess.

WindyNights · April 6, 2016

Season two is my least favourite too. Me and my friends tend to skip most episodes in that season when we do our rewatches. As for season five leading into season six, this eternal optimist thinks (hopes!) you're right, and it was just a case of "darkest before dawn".

This is another place where the casting makes that impossible. Because Richard Madden does not in any way or form look like a young boy. In the books he is, what? 14? 15? It makes sense for readers that a 15 year old boy will have to learn his way and will make serious mistakes along the road. But visually we would have had the same perception issues with Madden-as-apprentice-king as we did with "moody, emo" Jon Snow in the first season. Maybe even more so, since Kit still had some babyfat in his face in season one, while Madden looked like a fully grown man from day one.

I would have loved your spec, I just don't think it was ever feasible with those actors.

I agree but they could've at least had tried to keep Richard Madden's face shaved. At least it would've made him look younger

Anyways I would've probably cast younger for Robb and Jon and even Daenerys.

Not even in season 1 could I believe they were 17. They all looked like they were in their mid 20's.

OhOkayWhat · April 6, 2016

My feelings on season five are a bit harder to judge though, in large part because so much was left as cliffhangers. On its own its just depressing (with cool moments interspersed), but If season six starts to see a turnaround for the likeable protagonists then I think season five's darkness will be more easily justified within the entire eight-season narrative as the end of the second act nadir point where the heroes have to lose everything before they come back stronger and win in the third act.

As for season five leading into season six, this eternal optimist thinks (hopes!) you're right, and it was just a case of "darkest before dawn".

It is interesting to think about that. I think it is a bit unfair to judge season 5 forgetting the fact that it is only a part of a long ongoing story. It is like to judge the first hour of a movie as it was the whole movie. Of course, you can criticize many elements of it (and it deserved to be criticized) even if it is not a finished story, but, it is not fair to forget that maybe some plots will make sense when we see the story as a whole.

In a related note, some time ago I read an interesting analysis about the two last books and the last season.

Imagine it like this:

AFFC include chapters A,C,E,G,I

ADWD include chapters B,D,F,H,J

AFFC+ADWD together include then A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J

Option 1

Film Season 5 including only the AFFC chapters (A,C,E,G,I)

Film Season 6 including only the ADWD chapter (B,D,F,H,J)

Option 2

Film everything as it was a single long book AFFC+ADWD (A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J) and split it in half:

Season 5 = A,B,C,D,E

Season 6= F,G,H,I,J

Option 1 is doomed because in this option each season include only half of the characters, and I suspect it is a very bad idea to do that with a tv show

Option 2 is also doomed because Season 5 does NOT include any climax (of very few ones), while Season 6 include the climax of almost every plot.

If we think carefully, it makes the task of create the plot of season 5 a real nightmare (and this is besides all the filming challenges, production issues, writing the storylines in detail, casting choices, etc), because either way you are in a big trouble. Does it explain all the problems of season 5? Of course not; but we should not forget the special nature of the chapters of last two books.

Edited April 6, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

Triskan · April 6, 2016

Yeah, that's an interesting analysis.

And, even though we havent read Winds yet and cant be sure of how "final-act-of-ASOS-like" it will be, and despite the show and books having differences, I am quite prepared for an epic season 6...

I know I'm in the minority here, but I think we the material they had, and despite criticizing a lot some of its elements, I found S5 overall pretty solid.

And, not necessarly the most popular opinion either, I really admire all the story-telling/adapting choices they've made in S4 and truly think it's the best of the show (but then again, it was really difficult to screw that one up, the source material - that final act of Storm is just epic as fuck), and I have a feeling S6 will be that again.

So yeah, sure, the show has it flaws and I'm not blind to them (and I would have made different story-telling choices here or there) but I'm damn confident S6 will be spectacular !

Yeah, feels good to lighten the hype-fire again, cause among all the S5 negativity I see all around (and it's justified in some parts, but that forgeting all the good there was also in S5, and there was a lot of good !), I think we need to look a little bit more at the bright side of having two different mediums telling that story their own way !

Okay, then I admit there are a couple other shows out there I'm looking forward to see come back this month a little bit more than GoT (namely Orphan Black, 12 Monkeys and Penny Dreadful), but I'm confident S6 has the potential to blow our minds !

WSmith84 · April 6, 2016

I don't buy the argument that season 5 - or books 4 and 5 - shouldn't be judged because we haven't seen what comes afterwards. Book 1 and season 1 managed to achieve plenty of setup, character building, world building, plot development and character development, so there's no reason season 5 and books 4 and 5 shouldn't have done the same.

Triskan, what were the good parts of season 5 for you? I'm genuinely interested, because when I try and think of good moments from season 5 I mostly draw a blank. I think there were a few good scenes, but I can't remember any particular arc that I enjoyed. Whilst I might complain about the earlier seasons, I definitely enjoyed certain arcs and plot points. With season 5, I can't think of a single one.

Starting my season 3 rewatch today. I think it's a pretty good season, though I think I'll skip the torture porn. I'd already read all of the books when season 3 came out and I still really enjoyed it.

stillshimpy · April 6, 2016

Yeah, season three is not taking a whole bunch of time for me to rewatch, because I do get to fast forward through all things Theon. As a result, I finally get to appreciate it for the things it did do well. Season two suffers horribly from having read the books for me. Season three was the worst to watch without having read the books. It felt like I was in an abusive relationship for much of it. Ack. Anyway, more thoughts on that when I'm actually done. However, it is benefiting the most from the other information I know from the books.

I hate to beat a dead horse (horrible expression—remind me to think of another equivalent expression when I'm not quite so tired)

Allow me: "I hate to go hammer-and-tongs on the situation...." "I hate to sing the chorus once again...." "Pardon me will I take to my personal pulpit again...." "Excuse me as I dig to the Earth's core on this particular point...." "Bear with me while I pound this through to the back of beyond...."

I have still more. When you're a human crossed with a particularly fixated and verbose terrier, as I am, one tends to come with almost countless ways of paving the road for the Repetition Revival Revisited.

You know, one way to get around the entire age difficulty was to have cast younger on a couple of key parts, or just actually aged up the character. The show never bothered to clear up when Dany was born, she simply could have been 18, 19, 20, Make the rebellion 22 years ago. I can understand not casting younger on Jon or Robb -- they both have sexual story lines to play out that it would help to cast older actors, for the sake of the audience.

Talisa's scolding really was a bit wearing, but the only area I really took issue with it was that she lectured Robb on what was right and what was wrong....and then had boo to say about being betrothed to someone else. That particular one she chose the "whatever you decide, you man, you!" thing going.

Sometimes a characterization created for being a plot device really, really shows strain. Talisa was showing strain and you couldn't think about her for more than a minute or two without thinking, "Wait, what? How would that work?"

I don't buy the argument that season 5 - or books 4 and 5 - shouldn't be judged because we haven't seen what comes afterwards.

I agree. Every season takes up months of someone's time, if they are watching it as it airs. It needs to deliver on the investment of time and also adhere at least somewhat to a narrative structure that contains something resembling completion.

The books, similarly, are asking people to wait half a decade and more in between installments. I'm not trying to be a jackass here, but there are people who will die before this series is completed. Now that's an extreme example, but there has to be enough satisfaction with a tale told to warrant returning to it lo those many years later. So if anything, the books need to deliver even more anticipation and satisfaction, because they need to be compelling enough to go back to.

I'm about to bring up poor old BSG again, but it was a great show in the first season, a really good show in the second, great for two episodes of season three....and then it began the slow descent into absolute shit. I love it to this day, but the back half of season three is suspect (to put that as kindly as I know how) and season four is....well, it's indescribably bad in some areas. To this day, if anyone asks about it I'll tell them to watch the first season, all of the second season and to bail the fuck out after they get away from New Caprica.

No one ever, ever listens so they walk away think, "oh Jesus, that was shit...." and hardly anyone talks about it.

All the parts of an extended story matter and if something really comes off as pure shit, well, it's pure shit. Doesn't matter if it will eventually be redeemed shit. It's also fair to judge the components of things, I feel, because a micro view is as valid as macro when it comes to storytelling.

Edited April 6, 2016 by stillshimpy

Triskan · April 6, 2016

I don't buy the argument that season 5 - or books 4 and 5 - shouldn't be judged because we haven't seen what comes afterwards.

True, the argument that a stand-alone book / season should work in itself has regards, but I tend to think that tends to be false after a while with a growing universe.

Sure at the beginning, you can have very solid one-standers when focusing on fewer locations and characters, but I think there comes a point when extending and laying a very deep world / universe full of different characters when it's logical there are times when the story needs to be adjusted to fit a greater scheme.

And that being said, I still quite enjoyed season 5 !

Triskan, what were the good parts of season 5 for you? I'm genuinely interested, because when I try and think of good moments from season 5 I mostly draw a blank. I think there were a few good scenes, but I can't remember any particular arc that I enjoyed. Whilst I might complain about the earlier seasons, I definitely enjoyed certain arcs and plot points. With season 5, I can't think of a single one.

In the end, pretty much like you, I didnt necessarly entirely enjoyed a whole arc, but among almost all of them, there were some really great bits. Trying to overview all the storylines to give you valid examples.

The Wall :

The whole beginning of the season was pretty strong. I think the show nailed the Jon and Stannis relationship (adapted and simplified for sure but still very well done!), Janos execution, the Stannis / Shireen was great both to give the characters some interraction and to talk about greyscale, Jon and Tormund dialogue in episode 5...

Sure, episode 7 (despite featuring the massively under-used Ghost, which somehow is my biggest complaint of S5, even bigger than Dorne) was a let-down. Aemon's funerals was very esthetic but the rest of the episode could have turned out differently there, I admit.

But then we had Hardhome... and Jon's return to Castle Black in episode 9 and I found that scene very good. Very silent and very atmospheric.

So all in all, despite episode 7, I really loved what they did at the Wall.

Sure, we lose a lot of character-building that lay to the mutiniy in the books, but I think they didnt took the worst road to build it up. Could have been more subtle, but the show is not the books, and storywise, I think what happened in the show was coherent with the characters.

.... Oh, yeah, there was Ollie... forgot about Ollie... yeah, the character was poorly written. Although they've tried to do something interesting with his conflict, it turned out quite a weak plot point.

Moving on to the other big arc of S5... Winterfell...

Alfie Allen's performance.

Enough said.

..... No, but actually, it's an interesting point here... I think we should manage to appreciate and most of all praise the show for the talents working at every level : costume, sets, make-up, editing, cinematography... and of course, acting-wise, and that alone makes me, in a way, love S5. Visually speaking and acting-wise, it was stunning.

Anywyay, besides Alfie, I must say I kinda enjoy Iwan's performance (guilty pleasure here, cause I wont deny Ramsay could be written better in the show, but I could watch Iwan play him all day !). Michael McElhatton of course is a very strong point of the arc as well !

And, despite flaws and too much simplification in its writing, the Winterfell arc was esthetically and visually beautiful (that wedding scene !!!) so all in all I really liked it.

What bothered me the most there : Brienne's arc (aka the worst story arc of the season).

Now, let's mention the elephant in the room : Sansa. Well, actually here's a front where I wont say anything until I see S6... for me, all depends on how everything pays off next season, so no judgement here, just expectations.

I'm gonna talk about the second half of Stannis arc here as well... and once again, it's tough to talk about it without the knowledge of the upcoming story. A lot depends on what will happen in S6... but for now I can say that despite not really liking the writing for his scenes in episode 7 and 8, I found Shireen's scene masterfully shot. The visuals, Kerry Ingram's performance (that last final scream is just too much to bear anytime I hear it), the pivotal moment for Selyse, and the cheering of Stannis from the people of Meereen... but I still wait for next season to see if the sacrifice has any pay-off cause I'm not sure I'd be okay with Shireen's death only clearing the weather... as for Stannis death, well, yeah, it was a little quick and brief, but I think it will allow the show to move on more easily to more pressing matters next season and the visuals were great and his final scene with Brienne pretty well written.

Shall I do Dorne now ? ... yeah, let's do Dorne now and get it over with. ^^

What did I liked there ?

Hmmm... the Real Alcazar set, Alexander Siddig, Jessica Henwick (gimme more Nymeria show ! Dont care of the other, if there was to be only one Sand Snake to be relevant in the end, please, be it Nymeria ! ^^)... but yeah, all in all, only Brienne's arc is worst than Dorne...

Okay, so other stuff I liked... let's go across the sea to Meereen...

Ramin Djawadi... man, as much as I prefer direwolves over dragons, the fire and blood (and variants) theme is beautiful !

Just watch Drogon fly above the arena as the music is eerie and haunting and then he lands and.... that horn or whatever, you know... THAT souund... that sound when he burned Kraznys in Astapor and eats that running man just after landing in Daznak Pit... man, that gives me chills every time ! And then the music aint eerie anylonger but it's fire and blood !

And it's the perfect opportunity to praise Ramin Djawadi's entire score of work for the show cause the man rocks it all (and that Iron Born theme I'm so looking forward to hear again next season !).

Well, apart from the music, I must admit, I kinda enjoyed Emilia Clarke's performance this season. Not her worst season by far, and I think I understand her take on Dany. Her scene in episode 8 with Tyrion/Peter is really amazing ! The entire dialogue is really strong and the actors nail it !

But then yeah, the threat of the Sons of the Harpy was lazy written. Not poorly, but lazy... they could have gone further with it and really offer something more meaty, cause in the end, the whole Meereen arc felt easy... but then again, like Sansa in Winterfell, it's a case of "let's wait S6 before judging", cause I really think all characters in Slaver's Bay (and the Dothraki Sea) are in position to deliver one hell of a story !

I have some doubts still on the Dothraki arc... I really hope Dany wins them by her wits and not just cause "duh, dragons !" but we'll see...

Briefly gonna talk about Tyrion's travels here :

Okay, not the best part of the season, although I have to admit the Valyria and stonemen visuals (and the dialogue of Tyrion and Jorah quoting lines of The Fall) were really stunning !

But apart from that and AAA's cameo it was again an arc that is destined to pay off next year, with Tyrion now in place and the greyscale now introduced in the story.

Sailing on to Braavos...

Man, the House of Black and White and Hall of Faces sets are gorgeous !!!

And sadly, nothing much to say here... well, no... I really liked Arya's arrival in Braavos : her scene with the captain and meandering down the streets, and I found her killing of Trant to be one hell of a scene (writing, acting, make-up, visuals, editing... damn, that was a rivetting scene !). Visually speaking the final scene was quite something as well : the creepiness of the changing faces and the eyes turning blind was a very strong moment as well.

Other than that, the middle of the season dragged a little bit, but I'll wait to see how Arya's arc in the House will end before deciding on the value of it all, and just savour the haunting creepiness of it all for now.

So now, what remains ? Yeah... King's Landing only...

Well, you know what... I dont have the courage to talk about KL right now... not that I didnt liked it or overly loved it, but I dont have a lot to say on the matter.

I admit it's been a really long time since I havent read Cersei's chapters in Feast to really remember them and offer any thought on how it could have been handled better, but all in all, even if I found her downfall to be too easy (another example of lazy-writing), Lena Headey's performance managed to salvage it all and make it some damn compelling story arc (it helps she's surrounder by damn great actors as well !).

But yeah, that's not the arc where I have the most to say to be fair.

So all in all, from a visual and esthetic point of view I loved that season !

The actors are a huge part of what rivets me to the show each time I rewatch some scenes here or there as well and when it comes to the writing, well, I really enjoyed some of their decisions, I understood some of them in order to adapt the story and prepare the ground for the next season and there were also some noticeably gold moments of dialogue in there.

But yeah, on many fronts, I think things could have been handled better....... but again, we dont know exactly how the story will turn out and when D&D say that when all is said and done we'll understand more of their choices and decisions, I trust them and I have faith in them to deliver a damn epic S6 ! :)

Edited April 6, 2016 by Triskan

mac123x · April 6, 2016

I don't buy the argument that season 5 - or books 4 and 5 - shouldn't be judged because we haven't seen what comes afterwards.

As is my nature, I can see both sides of this. In the commentary track for that episode, Brian Cogman addressed some of the criticism / viewer revulsion by saying that basically Sansa's story isn't over, that this was the middle of her arc and not the end. So they're willing to spread a story out over multiple seasons.

On the other hand, they're excuse for moving all the Ironborn stuff into season 6 is that they didn't want to spread it out over multiple seasons.

I think the show runners are speaking out of both sides of their mouths.

BTW, that's an interesting commentary track to listen to. It's Cogman, Maisie Williams, and the dude who plays Jaquen Hagar.

WSmith84 · April 6, 2016

Wow, you liked a lot more of season 5 than I did. Whilst I generally find the visuals and aesthetics stunning (despite the occasional mishap), I thought the writing took such a nosedive in season 5.

Season 5

I couldn't enjoy any of the Winterfell plot because it was built on such a poor foundation. They roped Sansa into this plot, defying all logic to do so, and reduced her back down to a victim in the process whilst ignoring the fantastic source material. And the source material would have made such good TV! I also find Ramsey tremendously boring and can't understand the showrunners' fascination with him. He's a discount Joffrey. Roose is a far more interesting character, but he barely appears in the show.

The Wall was probably the best of a bad bunch, but reducing it down to 'Jon clever, NW men stupid' was a mistake. I enjoyed the battle of Hardhome, and some of Jon's interactions with Stannis, but I mostly found the thing meh. And rushed. One of the worst decisions the show made was to leave the battle for the Wall in season 4 until the 9th episode. It meant that Jon, Stannis and the Wildlings had to sit around doing filler for a whole season waiting for the plot to kick back in. Had they had the battle early in season 4, we could have had Jon's election and discussions with Stannis in season 4, giving the whole thing more room to breathe. I enjoyed the Stannis-Shireen scene at the time, but that turned out to be shameless emotional manipulation.

The rest I just found so painfully average. Arya getting beaten repeatedly just isn't that interesting, Tyrion's trip was about as interesting as his book one (i.e. not very) and contained one of the most offensive scenes I've ever seen on TV, Dany's stuff was... Dany's stuff, and King's Landing was a real mixed bag.

And Dorne... ha ha Dorne.

OhOkayWhat · April 6, 2016

As I said before I think we can judge Season 5 separately (it has its flaws and some of them are big flaws) BUT we should not forget this:

-That it is only a part of a big ongoing story

-The strange nature of the last two books, where we have only half of the characters in each book

That alone is a huge problem for any adaptation. Option 1 and 2 (as I explained before) are doomed, and any Option 3 that a writer could create, will suffer for the same reasons than 1 and 2.

In brief, the special nature of AFFC and ADWD is something a good analysis should include.

vibeology · April 6, 2016

At the same time, the producers knew that going in and have had years to plan for how to tackle the strange pacing. AFFC was out before the show premiered and ADWD came out the same year the show premiered. But these guys didn't think they were going to get there and it showed. They were fingers crossed that they'd get to do the Red Wedding and didn't put any thought into what comes after until the show was already in production and D&D were in the middle of a very long, busy production schedule. It shows. At the end of the day the excuses don't matter; if a story isn't compelling you've told a bad story. I didn't like much of season 5. There are good moments here and there, but it was mostly messy and muddled with some truly horrible writing and some very bad plot choices. I put 10 hours into this and got very little return.

WSmith84 · April 6, 2016

First episode of season 3 is done. The Northern stuff just really doesn't work. Nor does the stuff with Stannis. The King's Landing stuff is strong; these are the characters the showrunners really love and the writing really reflects that. Tyrion, Cersei and Tywin get good material, and Peter Dinklage can really knock it out of the park when he's given the right material. Charles Dance just exudes charisma, doesn't he? What a great casting choice.

stillshimpy · April 6, 2016

I'm 4 episodes in, the Brotherhood without Bankroll has made an appearance and that's an example of a story that is somehow easier to take knowing what a departure it is from the material in the book. I hated those bastards on the show, because they literally sold one of their own.

Stannis's characterization continues to be just left of center for everything and Melisandre is just evil all over the place. Her utterly contemptuous look when she tells him that his "fires burn low" -- I don't think I was ever off-base in thinking that show Mel was just in it for a power grab and that whatever R'Hollor (the Lord of Light) was there as no reason to believe he was a force for good.

So between the Brotherhood and Mel at least two stories are improved by knowing the stories from the show. Although, admittedly, that doesn't actually solve the "Why did they do that?" problems, it does at least make the larger context more interesting.

Boy, Theon's material just flies right on by when you refuse to watch it :-D

The scene between Tywin and Tyrion will always feel like a body blow, but I can honestly say that I have so much fun with Natalie Dormer's Margaery that I love when she is just turning Joffrey's world on its ear by suggesting that he help people.

Also it was good to see the first signs of Jaime's -- consistently inconsistent and often thwarted by the show -- character development.

I have to say though, Robb's story is just leaving me sort of nonplussed. In contrast to his book character -- who I grant you is so good, and so honorable, as well as being kind to his mum, that he is a bit of Cardboard Kevin -- show Robb seems almost a hot head in comparison. I still sort of love Show Robb though and have since that "I'm not your boy, Lannister" scene but he's an edgier, more arrogant character in the show.

Admittedly, since Robb was never a POV character it sort of became mandatory to expand his character a bit. Book Robb was such an honorable and true sort I had difficulty buying the whole Jeyne setup, unless she really set out to seduce him. That may be because Jon was given a POV and so I tend to assign his extreme stance on breaking oaths and vows to Robb too, even when it came to sex. So I don't know, since we never get a window into Book Robb, it may be that my take on him was always just wrong.

Terra Nova · April 6, 2016

I think part of Robb's role in the book is exactly to be quite an opaque character, since he's mainly seen through Catelyn's eyes who has to come to termes with the notion that he's not her boy anymore. That's why he's off page for a good chunk of Clash. As Linda Antonsson said, 'he goes to war and becomes a legend'. And that's why when he reappears in Storm he's already married.

Still, it is still possible to sense the character living off the page: his doubts, the way Jeyne is still half a stranger to him, the fear about his wolfdreams.

I understand why they wanted to make him more relevant on the show, and since they don't seem to like to portray military campaigns and that the actor looks too old to have the same insecurieties of his book counterpart, the lovestory route may have made sense... but the way it was done!

I would have rather liked Robb facing moral dilemmas and the consequences on the smallfolk of his - justified - war: in S2 Roose says they have too many prisoners, it would have been a good chance to show how good characters have to make unsavory decisions, or even if Robb still refused to harm them, this should have had an impact. Part of this lack of material outside the twu lurv thing is also because they brought back the Tullys only for the Red Wedding, never to be seen again; having the Blackfish as Robb's mentor, or Catelyn in Riverrun with her dying father would have provided exposure and context to that whole plotline.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Terra Nova

WindyNights · April 6, 2016

When I first started reading the books I kept thinking that Robb and Jon were virtually the same character.

Honorable, kind, smart but then it hits you that there are some big differences between the two even in their intro scene.

Robb is a lot warmer and optimistic than Jon who is cynical and sullen. Jon has a lot of issues with feeling inferior stemming from his bastardry. Robb doesn't.

Rohb is warm to his men and Jon is more cold and distant like Ned.

Robb loves Theon. Jon hates him.

Robb doesn't engage in intrigue. Jon does.

Funnily enough both Robb and Jon are oath-breakers.

Terra Nova · April 6, 2016

Rohb is warm to his men and Jon is more cold and distant like Ned.

I wouldn't say though that Ned was distant to his men: he taught both Robb and Jon that they should listen to their smallfolk, and even allowed one of them in turn to sit at the high table close to him, so to chat a little. Heck, he surely knew how to party with the hill clans and keep them at bay. He also gave the very reasonable warning not to become friends with someone's own subjects, since one day they could need to sit in judgment and sentence them to death.

Jon as Lord Commander was really good at the second part... and that only, since he actively alienated his supporters in the low ranks of the Night's Watch.

(but it's a nitpick, all in all)

OhOkayWhat · April 6, 2016

At the same time, the producers knew that going in and have had years to plan for how to tackle the strange pacing. AFFC was out before the show premiered and ADWD came out the same year the show premiered. But these guys didn't think they were going to get there and it showed. They were fingers crossed that they'd get to do the Red Wedding and didn't put any thought into what comes after until the show was already in production and D&D were in the middle of a very long, busy production schedule. It shows. At the end of the day the excuses don't matter; if a story isn't compelling you've told a bad story. I didn't like much of season 5. There are good moments here and there, but it was mostly messy and muddled with some truly horrible writing and some very bad plot choices. I put 10 hours into this and got very little return.

I think it like this: give me any amount of time to fight Godzilla. Now, give me twice that amount of time to fight Godzilla. I STILL will fight Godzilla. To have preparation time helps, but in this case even that help does NOT erase the huge narrative problem of AFFC+ADWD for an adaptation.

So, once again, I think it is ok to analyze the Season 5 separately and to find its flaws, but at the same time we need to include in a proper analysis the huge issue of the strange way the last two book are organized. And with or without preparation time it will be a huge issue.

Edited April 6, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

Alayne Stone · April 6, 2016

Jon's not always cold with his men. I'm rereading Dance right now and have come to really appreciate the relationship he has with Leathers. I think he was just deliberately distancing himself from the men (boys really) who had been his friends before he had become Lord Commander ... trying to set up the obvious boundaries that need to be honored between a leader and his subordinates ... and of course he grows cold and impatient with Marsh and his ilk as the plot progresses.

If I tried really hard I could probably pull some moments out of season 5 that I enjoyed, if I take those scenes with absolutely no context. I enjoyed the Stannis/Shireen "you are my daughter" scene, pretty much all of the scenes involving Jon & Stannis/Davos. That awkward Bolton family dinner was awkward and funny on its own. The CGI for "Valyria" was beautiful and I really liked the poem Tyrion recites. Arya stashing away Needle was a lovely scene. But for me I can only enjoy these if I take them out of context. If I look at them as pieces of a whole, then I do not enjoy them as much and I know I will never be able to rewatch any part of season 5. Ever.

I will say that the costume/set designers, location scouts, cinematographers ... pretty much everyone involved in the technical aspect of this show ... are the unsung heroes. I have always enjoyed Ramin Djawadi's score, though I have to be honest with you, I can't pick out a single track from season 5 that stands out. The previous four seasons had some spectacular tracks though.

Since you guys are on your season 3 rewatch, I have to say that season 3 is the season I fell in love with Margaery. Well ... during the first half of the season. And for the longest time I could not figure out what it was that I liked so much about her because now I cannot stand her in the show. But then someone pointed out (I think it was the GOT: Fine Tuned Edition on tumblr) that Margaery was given a lot of Sansa's interest in reaching out to the common folk/her love of knights and the belief in their honor and goodness. The example specifically cited was when Margaery visits the orphanage. The Tyrells in the books were obviously always giving away food (while conveniently never mentioning the fact that they were the ones helping to starve the city to begin with) and performing charitable acts, but it is mostly one of their ingenious PR ploys. Margaery in the show seemed to be genuinely concerned in that scene and it finally occurred to me the other day ... the reason I enjoyed Marg so much in season 3 is because little slivers of Sansa's personality were assimilated into her show character in that season.

Of course, Marg's interest in the common folk was dropped like a bad habit after the Purple Wedding, nearly two seasons ago. Not that I'm surprised, since Marg tends to get dropped like a bad habit about halfway through each season anyway.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Alayne Stone

GertrudeDR · April 6, 2016

Boy, Theon's material just flies right on by when you refuse to watch it :-D

Also it was good to see the first signs of Jaime's -- consistently inconsistent and often thwarted by the show -- character development.

Yeah - that's the only proper way to watch the Theon/Ramsey scenes. Even knowing where it was leading to while watching it it was too much. I understand why they made the choice to show it - different medium, keeping actors employed, etc. I really think we didn't need to see so gosh darned much of it. Leave a little to the imagination, huh folks? (I might say that about the female form as well, but I digress)

This next bit is going to sound weird, but I didn't like how little time they actually took to break Theon to being Reek. The concept of letting go of Theon and naming him Reek was introduced at the very end and Theon refused once, maybe twice, then rolled over. Yes, I know we just watched the whole process of Ramsey breaking him in body and spirit, but I really do think that if the concept of Reek had been introduced a little earlier and Theon fought longer to keep his name, it would have been a more earned moment when Theon finally let go of all sense of self. Instead we get Ramsey as the Joker, which I'm not overly fond of.

Also - Jaime. *sigh* my Jaime. I won't let go of my book version because aside from season 3, they haven't even begun to do him justice. I wasn't sold on NCW as Jaime at first because he didn't match my visual image of him, and I didn't like how much of a sneering villain he was being played as (the things I do for love comes to mind). NCW has won me over, though, and I love how he plays him with a good amount of swagger and snark, but not too much. He's doing a great job with poorly written material, IMO.

GertrudeDR · April 6, 2016

Now for my comments on season 5. I get that each season has to have an satisfying arc and conclusion of some sort. I don't think each storyline needs to have a BIG HUGE ending, though. Personally, I would have loved to see the siege of Castle Black over several episodes to ratchet up the tension and give Stannis a bigger win. This means you don't get Ygritte hanging around uselessly for a full season only to die in Jon's arms as Olly gives him the thumbs up. I can live with that. Kill her in episode 2 and done. Have Jon's confrontation and the Stannis save be the big ep.

I also think one of the main problems the show has is that butterfly effect. For example, leaving the battle for Castle Black until the end of the season makes for a lot of filler, as mentioned above. This bleeds into season 5 with the pacing issues.

Having Jon debate on wether or not to take up Stannis' offer of Winterfell was glossed over with 'nah, I'm good'. It should have been a no-brainer for Jon, not because he's an honorable man, but because he knows Bran is alive. He knows this and the show didn't even touch on it because - dude, that was all the way in last season. No on remembers that. (or Tysha). The Winterfell plotline? Showrunners wanted to keep it, I assume to show Theon's growth. What growth did we see? Not too damn much. Killing Myranda wasn't growth, it was an impulsive move. What did he do to show us he was coming around to this point? What did we see of Sansa's strength? Not too damn much. Sulky does not equal strength. Listen to her tone when she talks to Septa Mordane in season 1 telling her 'I don't care' and listen to her needling Ramsey at dinner. What was she trying to accomplish? Piss him off? That's a good way to 'make him yours', Sansa. She didn't have a plan, and the writers didn't have a plan. I wrote more than I intended, but it always works me up when I think of the wasted potential of this situation the writers flushed down the toilet. If you're going to rape Sansa, give us a real reason for her to be there.

The showrunners are inconsistent and sloppy with their own material and as long as they keep trying to hit plot points without the journey, or even an attempt at a journey between them, it's going to fall flat. It shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that, even in a bridge season, which I think it's fair to say this was.

Edited April 7, 2016 by GertrudeDR

Alayne Stone · April 7, 2016

NCW was amazing in that bathtub scene. Everything about it felt lifted straight from the page. Gwendolyn was great as well. I remember having such high hopes for Jaime after season 3.

Not that it amounted to anything beyond that point.

Shanna Marie · April 7, 2016

There's a scene early in season 1 in which Ned comes across Jaime in the throne room and they talk about what happened when Jaime killed the king that took on a new layer of meaning after seeing the bathtub scene. Now you know what's probably going through his head when he talks to Ned, but he's not going to reveal all that to Ned.

Unfortunately, HBO only seems to be keeping each season available On Demand for a week, so now season one is gone and they're on season two. It's interesting that almost everything in the recap segment before the first season two episode came from the first three or so episodes of season one, other than Dany's dragons, Ned's death and Arya leaving the city. I didn't feel like I missed much of anything, even though it's been years since I watched that season or read that book.

Season two is when I was reading the books while watching the series, and that was when I started to feel like the series writers had missed a lot of the points from the book. One of those points was Robb's marriage, which totally changed the reasons while throwing in the kind of cliched character Martin seemed to be trying to avoid. Another was the series of events that led to Jon joining the wildlings. And then there was Jaime, who I don't think the series writers understand at all. They made too many changes that make him into a different character entirely, so that the parts that should be his big turnaround in season three -- all his stuff with Brienne -- seem to exist in a vacuum that's barely connected to anything else with his character. That was the character I was most surprised by when I started reading the books after watching the first season.

Terra Nova · April 7, 2016

@Alayne:

Yes, Jon is very kind with Leathers, and Satin, and even Wun Wun: the wildling, the whore and the monster. That's how it appeared to Westerosi in the NW. But Jon stopped dining with the others, in almost all the gatherings he just gave orders and no reassurances (the three dead rangers come to mind), and grew increasingly snappy with Marsh and the others. Worse, everytime he came up with something closer to treason.

It is easy from the outside think he has become haughty and dismissive, and while Jon noticed that, he never put some effort in mitigating the effect. He made himself not particularly loved, but neither feared since he steadily refused the trappings of power, as Mel noticed.

This is a far cry from the paternalistic but-don't-mess-with-me approach of Ned.

OhOkayWhat · April 7, 2016

.....I also think one of the main problems the show has is that butterfly effect. For example, leaving the battle for Castle Black until the end of the season makes for a lot of filler, as mentioned above....

I think it is not only a narrative issue, it is a money issue too. It is obvious that if they divide the big scene of the battle in smaller scenes, each one in a different episode, they will have not a big event at the end of the season. Also, if season 4 end remains the same, the pacing of season 5 will be the same too. And I suspect they needed a big scene (in this case the Battle of Castle Black) at the end of the season because it is a business model that works with the average audience every season. And it could not be a surprise if the average viewer is the one that pays the bills.

The showrunners are inconsistent and sloppy with their own material and as long as they keep trying to hit plot points without the journey, or even an attempt at a journey between them, it's going to fall flat. It shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that, even in a bridge season, which I think it's fair to say this was.

I agree they have consistency problems (among other problems, of course) with Jaime, Shae and sometimes with Sansa; and some of the storylines are rushed, but most of the characters are consistent. In other words, most of characters are coherent with the things we know about them within the show. Being coherent does not mean that if their storylines were a graphic it should look like a straight line, a soft ascending parable or a descending one. They can be consistent and look like the skyline of a group of mountains, and I think it is specially true in a world like the one we see in Game of Thrones.

Edited April 7, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

Hecate7 · April 7, 2016

I disliked Talisa for several reasons. I hadn't actually read Storm by the time I watched season 2, but I knew as soon as she appeared on screen that she and Robb would fall in love and bla, bla, bla. So that annoyed me, for starters. But she's barely a character in her own right; just because you make a character sassy and 'not like other girls!' does not mean she's a fully-rounded character. Hell, Talisa barely scratches 2D. Now I also watch it with the thought of 'well, you're going to be needlessly and gratuitously murdered whilst pregnant' going through my head, so that's... that. And I'm with Terra Nova on this one; sassy remarks and a naked roll on the ground do not a love story make.

I disliked her for more reasons. In a medieval world, it's logical that there would be camp-followers doctoring. It is not logical that a Volantine noblewoman is wandering around without any ladies or escorts, on a battlefield in Westeros, healing soldiers for free, for no freaking reason AT ALL. It's even MORE unrealistic that in a patriarchal society with no porn to speak of and certainly no erotica for ladies, a virgin noblewoman is the first to fearlessly strip off, as if she's a college student on Spring Break with her new boyfriend. And a virgin doesn't usually get on top, nor does she have any understanding yet of why she might want to be on top, yet Talisa just goes for it. It made no sense. At that point I was convinced she was a prostitute.

It also made no sense that she constantly wrote letters to someone, but Robb never got to read the correspondence, which always suggested to me something very shady was really going on. When Robb met her, she was tending Lannister soldiers. I expected there to be some Lannister involvement in her presence there.

It made even less sense that Robb would marry this girl who looks and behaves for all the world like a prostitute. Yes, she's appealing and she raced him to the bed. That's a good reason to keep her in wine, furs, silks, and jewelry, but it's not a good reason to marry her. It would be more realistic for Robb to have treated her as Tyrion did Shae, or Stannis Melisandre, as an intimate, a mistress, but not as his wife. Talisa produced not one shred of evidence verifying her lineage, nor did Robb negotiate with her family as would have been proper. Plus all that other stuff about Catelyn being sidelined, about the contrived spunkiness of this anachronistic character, and the completely unrealistic reactions of the men around her, to her, and to Robb spending time with her.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Hecate7

WSmith84 · April 7, 2016

I agree with you Hecate. When I watched it for the first time (again, sans book knowledge) I was really surprised that Catelyn didn't have Talisa sent far away, given how obvious it was that Robb liked her. I was thinking 'just turn up with some guardsmen and have her escorted somewhere on some bull*&^t mission. Get one of the Northern lords to help. It's not that hard.'

Season 3 is done and overall it's still pretty good. The Northern stuff and Stannis just don't work. Stannis isn't written very well, nor is Melisandre. The Northern stuff clearly suffers from budget issues, and there really isn't much chemistry between Jon and Ygritte. King's Landing is pretty great, though this is the season where Sansa is reduced to an idiot to make every other character look better. It also has the 'Loras is gay, don't-you-know' scenes. Diana Rigg is awesome, Charles Dance is suave as hell and Aiden Gillen is... doing a Batman voice.

mac123x · April 7, 2016

Season two is when I was reading the books while watching the series, and that was when I started to feel like the series writers had missed a lot of the points from the book.... Another was the series of events that led to Jon joining the wildlings.

I thought Jon's cover story for joining the Wildlings was one of the areas where the show improved on the book. Book!Jon told Mance that he wanted to join the wildlings because "remember the feast for the king? I was seated at the back". In other words, he was willing to forsake his vows because he was treated like a second class citizen before he joined the NW. And Mance bought it.

Show!Jon said he wanted to join them because he saw a White Walker take Craster's baby boy, and Lord Commander Mormont knew about it. Disillusionment with the NW just seemed like a more plausible motive for defecting than "waaah, I wasn't treated very well (though I was raised in a castle, well fed, educated, and trained to fight, which is better than the lives of 95% of the populace of this crapsack world)".

Terra Nova · April 7, 2016

I thought Jon's cover story for joining the Wildlings was one of the areas where the show improved on the book.

That's debatable. In the book, Jon just learned that Mance sneaked into Winterfell and was there at the feast, so he knows what Jon is talking about (he saw him sulking far away from the high table). Moreover, because of the backstory provided by Qhorin, Jon knows Mance has been raised by the NW but he himself has Wildling's blood. Jon is trying to create a personal connection to Mance, on the basis they both suffered from discrimination - bastards are treacherous! Wildlings are savages! - and restriction to their personal freedom - a bastard can't do this and that! A crow can take no wife! -. And since the best lies are spiced with truth, Jon truly resents his status as a bastard, something he still hasn't fully overcome in Dance. And with Tyrion poisoning his mind when he joined the NW, but without Donal Noye's eyes-opener speech, Jon may have well turned into a bitter angry person (well, some of his brothers would have gutted him first, most likely, lol) with no respect for 'higher' ideals, the very same thing that caused him to join the cesspit at the Wall.

The desire for freedom and equality Jon is advocating for himself is also the main basis for the grudge the Wildlings harbor towards the Westerosi.

And that worked very well, since Mance himself deserted the NW for similar reasons, and later Mance-as-Rattleshirt totally wanted to kick Jon's ass and openly adressed his 'treachery' for turning back to the wildlings' cause.

On the show, Mance comments that Jon 'wants to be the hero', something quite apart from Jon's characterization in the books, and closer to the bratty tv version (he proposes to go with Qhorin instead of being chosen, he disobeys his orders and doesn't kill Ygritte, causing the death and failure of the rest of his group, bickers with Mormont at Craster's because he's unable to keep his mouth shut and so on). I would rather buy someone's betrayal because of petty reasons, instead of some grand desire for 'doing the right thing'.

Also, I think Shanna Marie (I am sorry if I misunderstood ^^) was complaining about the changes in the mission to the Frostfangs, i.e. the endless verbal abuse on Ygritte's part, something that surely sold us the idea she's totes ready to be in love with Jon, the idiotic circumstances that led to them being separated from the main group and, in my opinion, the abysmal treatment of Qhorin and the whole skinchanger affair.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Terra Nova

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