Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[mac123x]

Regarding the trial by combat:  Season 6 spoiler

I assumed that in the trailer where Cercei says "I choose violence" she was referring to the trial by combat rather than a more general battle against the Faith Militant.  Also based on rumors and loose-lipped cast member's (Ian McShane) comments, I don't think the Trial with be FrankenGregor vs Lancel... the Faith will be represented by the Reformed Hound.  Cleganebowl will be reality.

[WindyNights]

Regarding the trial by combat: Season 6 spoiler

I assumed that in the trailer where Cercei says "I choose violence" she was referring to the trial by combat rather than a more general battle against the Faith Militant. Also based on rumors and loose-lipped cast member's (Ian McShane) comments, I don't think the Trial with be FrankenGregor vs Lancel... the Faith will be represented by the Reformed Hound. Cleganebowl will be reality.

That seems super unlikely.

I'm pretty sure we're just going to see the Hound to the same degree that we saw him in AFFC as the gravedigger.

Clegane-bowl has always been a dream because Cersei can't lose her trial unless you think GRRM is going to have the Mountain kill the Hound.

[Terra Nova]

Before 'dying' Sandor listed all the things he regretted doing or not doing, and killing his brother was not on the list. He may have wanted to kill him in AGoT, but not anymore in Storm, and I think even less now on the Quiet Isle.

He may be a minor character compared to other POVs, but he has an arc too, and I think he moved well past the superangry dude he was at the beginning.

 

And on the other hand, Cersei I think will be in charge for quite some time, before finally dying. She must win the trial for that. And you don't bring back Gregorstein and make him go down his first fight like a sack of potatoes.

[Chris24601]

My thinking on Cleganbowl, if it is to happen, would be that it occurs seperately from Cersei winning her trial by combat (and probably not until season seven in the show).

I think the set up will be that Cersie will start a reign of terror and it will get so bad that even Jamie will realize he has to kill her. But to get to her you have to get past Mountainstein.

Enter the unlikely band of misfit heroes all converging in the Riverlands... Jamie, Bronn, Brienne, Arya and Sandor.

I think if Cleganbowl is to occur it will not be some revenge thing, but because Sandor has chosen undertake what he'll call a 'suicide mission' but which would, ironically, be recorded in the history books as deeds worthy of a true knight.

[OhOkayWhat]

I think if Cleganebowl happens in the show it will be like this: Sandor reunites with Arya and he realizes she will go to kill Gregor, he decides to risk his own life and he follows her to save her.

Edited March 26, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[GertrudeDR]

I think if Cleganbowl is to occur it will not be some revenge thing, but because Sandor has chosen undertake what he'll call a 'suicide mission' but which would, ironically, be recorded in the history books as deeds worthy of a true knight.

 

Yeah. I've never been a fan of the Cleganebowl hype mainly because I had hoped Sandor has moved past that. That and, as has been mentioned, I think Cersei wins her trial to terrorize another day.

 

I wouldn't mind this scenario, however. It echos the parallel of Jaime killing Cersei. (which is cannon in my head until proven wrong :p)

Edited March 26, 2016 by GertrudeDR

[WindyNights]

I think if Cleganebowl happens in the show it will be like this: Sandor reunites with Arya and he realizes she will go to kill Gregor, he decides to risk his own life and he follows her to save her.

Not sure why the Hound would want to help Arya. She left him there to die because he didn't try saving her mom.

[OhOkayWhat]

Not sure why the Hound would want to help Arya. She left him there to die because he didn't try saving her mom.

 

That is the reason I said "in the show". In the show he loves her (it is NOT a romantic love, of course).

Edited March 27, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[WindyNights]

That is the reason I said "in the show". In the show he loves her (it is NOT a romantic love, of course).

Does he?

I doubt it. He seemed like he pitied her more. And she still left him to die in the show.

[OhOkayWhat]

Does he?

I doubt it. He seemed like he pitied her more. And she still left him to die in the show.

 

Maybe it is not "love", but it is a profound connection. He opens his heart and tells her his story, that is really a big deal for him, and it is most impressive because their previous interactions.

 

He did not get money for her, he is ill after the bite and even with all that, he fights for her (of course, it is a bad decision, a terrible mistake, to use violence to solve things). It is not a romantic connection but it is a very profound relationship. She gives him a purpose and their story is a very complex one.

 

The director of their last scene together says that he loves her. Also it is important to notice that the show invested lot of time in their relationship.

 

And in season 5

there is a scene about them where it seems that she does not admit that it was not hate the reason why she left him like that, and that makes their story an ongoing story, I think she needs to find the real reason inside her own heart and if they find each other again he will find that too

Edited March 27, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Lady S.]

The director of their last scene together says that he loves her. 

 

Do you mean Alex Graves? 

[OhOkayWhat]

Do you mean Alex Graves? 

 

Yes, it is Alex Graves. Of course, his commentary, as the commentary of anyone, is part of a context. In this case, the context includes, among other things, all the stuff we know about Sandor and Arya in the show.

[WSmith84]

So I finished my season 1 watch and I must say, with a couple of exceptions (Renly, Loras), the show was an incredibly faithful adaption and excellent in its own right. It was incredible to feel genuine excitement again at watching the show. I was really surprised at the much larger range of emotions that Dany portrayed in that season; she seems to only be able to portray a few in recent seasons, mostly 'bad-ass' Queen. I blame that on the directing/writing though, rather than the actress. I admit, I had to take a quick break when I realised that the 'Littlefinger monologues whilst two prostitutes get it on' scene was playing; Laurence Olivier would have died attempting that scene.

 

Small confession: I've never really liked Aidan Gillan's Littlefinger. He was alright in the first season, but after that I find his persona... odd. He acts far too threatening for people to not consider him a threat, plus there's the Christian Bale-esque Batman voice he starts doing.

 

By the way, I've been rereading the thread, and the amount of times shimpy has said something like 'I assume X isn't true because the show wouldn't have left that out' is quite incredible. Also, during the AGOT read there were quite a few 'the show did this better' moments. They become fewer and fewer as the books go on, I noticed.

 

And kudos to everyone for not even hinting at stuff like Stoneheart.

[stillshimpy]

By the way, I've been re-watching also and have finished season one.  

 

I'm surprised by how much aging up both Ned and Cat has bothered me and how Jon's story just reads as a visual disaster, because Kit Harrington is a grown man and he looks like grown man, but Jon is written as fifteen-year-old boy.   I also really don't enjoy overly pervy Sam any more than I enjoy "I'm craven!" Sam. 

 

Ned's show counterpart is just a different guy in several areas.  He's not cautious, it makes him seem quite dim.  It is impossible to understand how he wouldn't suspect Littlefinger and so he comes off as being rather slow-witted when it all go sideways on him.  

 

Mark Addy remains the MVP of that season for me.  Page Robert is just a big Frat Boy and his warmth is more difficult to perceive in that first book.  I ended up wondering if Mark read the entire series or at least all parts pertaining to Robert in order to bring him to life.   

 

It's a really good season of television and a very good adaptation, so don't get me wrong here.  It's weird that they broke the Kinsey scale when it came to Loras, but really toned down Varys.  I am really glad they toned down Varys tremendously, but still really resent that stuff with Renly being afraid of blood (that still makes me see red), Loras seen as manipulating him solely for a power grab and then one of the worst sins against those two characters?  Making the scheming start before Robert's dead.   Presumably they set the source material on fire for that treatment and then dancing on the damned ashes. 

 

 

 

Small confession: I've never really liked Aidan Gillan's Littlefinger. He was alright in the first season, but after that I find his persona... odd. He acts far too threatening for people to not consider him a threat, plus there's the Christian Bale-esque Batman voice he starts doing.

 

I would not have guessed this before reading the books, but I think you're right.  De-sexualizing Littlefinger to the degree that they did in this show yielded kind of a strange end result.  He doesn't have enough spark of life to make his actions make a ton of sense as being truly motivated by a quest for revenge for all the slights he's endured.  Whereas I am glad, deeply, deeply glad that they took a complete pass on having him express a sexual interest in Sansa (because good god) his dispassionate affect just leaves him feeling like Buffy demon, doing evil for evil's sake.  

 

Littlefinger in the books is every bit as awful, but as man lusting after a great many things, he makes a lot more sense than the icy veneer of Petyr in the show. 

 

And nothing will ever be worse than that wretched sexposition scene. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by stillshimpy

[GertrudeDR]

I didn't really mind Loras' introduction as a manipulative schemer. It jarred me at first, but then I assumed it was to gradually introduce the Tyrells as players. Then when we met Marge, it made a lot more sense. Unfortunately, it was just about that time that they completely dropped that aspect of Loras. Once G'ma Tyrell hit the scene, all Tyrell men were brainless idiots. So while I don't think it was a horrible addition to Loras's personality, it ended up badly because it shows the lack of long-term planning the showrunner usually have. For the record, when reading, I never got the impression that Marge was overly ambitious. Granted, there is a lot of room for her to be anything you want to see in her in the books, but I always imagined she was a good little pawn in the Tyrell family, but not particularly ambitious for herself. That's just me, though, and Show Marge plays better on screen to spark conflict.

 

I never connected with Show Finger. All the reasons listed above - he just ... no, he's much better as a non-entity lurking in the background until you get to 'Only Cat.' I get that Show Finger needs something to do, and the Finger/Varys scenes were fun to watch, but overall I wrote him off early as a very different character.

[WSmith84]

I love Sean Bean (he's from near my hometown) but I agree, his Ned seemed a bit dim. And a bit humourless. Which is strange because book Ned, whilst hardly being the wittiest person, seemed to be able to enjoy jokes and funny situations without needing a build-up. Loras and Renly actually make me angrier this time around, because I watched the first season as an Unsullied and thus assumed they were either a) written as their book counterparts or b) some stuff was cut for time, leaving them as stereotypes, rather than rounded characters. Basically, I gave the showrunners the benefit of the doubt on that one. It's much worse on a rewatch, knowing that they had everything stripped from their characters except the homosexuality.

 

I'm glad you came to like Jon Snow so much on your read, shimpy. I think his material (and the Northern stuff in general) is why Dance is my second favourite, even though it's fourth or fifth best.

[Dev F]

I didn't really mind Loras' introduction as a manipulative schemer. It jarred me at first, but then I assumed it was to gradually introduce the Tyrells as players.

 

Yeah, and it's not like the Tyrells weren't already plotting to gain power in the books; they were just going to do it by having Margaery seduce Robert instead of by having Renly overthrow him. I can understand why, for the sake of story economy, the show wouldn't want to get into all the Margaery stuff right away and jumped right to the Renly stuff.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, if that was the only thing they had done to Renly and Loras -- making Loras into a schemer on par with the rest of his family -- I wouldn't consider it a great sin.  Combined with everything else?  

 

Yeah, shame on them. 

[WindyNights]

By the way, I've been re-watching also and have finished season one.

I'm surprised by how much aging up both Ned and Cat has bothered me and how Jon's story just reads as a visual disaster, because Kit Harrington is a grown man and he looks like grown man, but Jon is written as fifteen-year-old boy. I also really don't enjoy overly pervy Sam any more than I enjoy "I'm craven!" Sam.

Ned's show counterpart is just a different guy in several areas. He's not cautious, it makes him seem quite dim. It is impossible to understand how he wouldn't suspect Littlefinger and so he comes off as being rather slow-witted when it all go sideways on him.

Mark Addy remains the MVP of that season for me. Page Robert is just a big Frat Boy and his warmth is more difficult to perceive in that first book. I ended up wondering if Mark read the entire series or at least all parts pertaining to Robert in order to bring him to life.

It's a really good season of television and a very good adaptation, so don't get me wrong here. It's weird that they broke the Kinsey scale when it came to Loras, but really toned down Varys. I am really glad they toned down Varys tremendously, but still really resent that stuff with Renly being afraid of blood (that still makes me see red), Loras seen as manipulating him solely for a power grab and then one of the worst sins against those two characters? Making the scheming start before Robert's dead. Presumably they set the source material on fire for that treatment and then dancing on the damned ashes.

I would not have guessed this before reading the books, but I think you're right. De-sexualizing Littlefinger to the degree that they did in this show yielded kind of a strange end result. He doesn't have enough spark of life to make his actions make a ton of sense as being truly motivated by a quest for revenge for all the slights he's endured. Whereas I am glad, deeply, deeply glad that they took a complete pass on having him express a sexual interest in Sansa (because good god) his dispassionate affect just leaves him feeling like Buffy demon, doing evil for evil's sake.

Littlefinger in the books is every bit as awful, but as man lusting after a great many things, he makes a lot more sense than the icy veneer of Petyr in the show.

And nothing will ever be worse than that wretched sexposition scene.

According to GRRM, Littlefinger is the most different from his book counterpart in season 1.

[

] "Book Littlefinger and television show Littlefinger are very different characters. They're probably the character that's most different from the book to the television show," Martain said. "There was a a line in a recent episode of the show where, he's not even present, but two people are talking about him and someone says 'Well, no one trusts Littlefinger' and 'Littlefinger has no friends.' And that's true of television show Littlefinger, but it's certainly not true of book Littlefinger. Book Littlefinger, in the book, everybody trusts him. Everybody trusts him because he seems powerless, and he's very friendly, and he's very helpful. He helps Ned Stark when he comes to town, he helps Tyrion, you know, he helps the Lannisters. He's always ready to help, to raise money. He helps Robert, Robert depends on him to finance all of his banquets and tournaments and his other follies, because Littlefinger can always raise money. So, he's everybody's friend. But of course there's the Machiavellian thing. He's, you know, everybody trusts him, everybody depends on him. He's not a threat. He's just this helpful, funny guy, who you can call upon to do whatever you want, and to raise money, and he ingratiaties himself with people and rises higher and higher as a result."[

]

There's a short video on GRRM about LF:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MtYhmD2TZs0

Basically LF alternates between seeing Sansa as his could have been daugher with Cat, another piece to move around and Cat reborn.

[Terra Nova]

Well, as said upthread the Tyrell were already planning to pull an Anne Boleyn and make Bob  'divorce' Cersei. But this could have been done only if Cersei was to be found guilty of... um, dunno, treason and incest?

On re-reads, it's quite clear that the Tyrell (or Renly only, or Renly and Loras) knew about the incest; and of course, it makes sense: the Tyrell would like Margaery's children to inherit the Throne, not just having them as princes until Joffrey ascends the throne and avenges his mom, refused and humiliated because of them. This means they have to nullify the marriage with Cersei and remove the Lannister children from the royal line: the incest-gate would have worked for both.

 

Also, Shimpy, here's an essay about the first two seasons for Sam Tarly: it pretty much agrees with your views, and it really took me by surprise the first time I read it: Sam didn't strike me as that annoying - but I'm sure I was giving the showrunners the bnefit of the doubt, thinking they would have polished him in later seasons; -. Show!Sam now is truly different from his book counterpart. 

 

http://turtle-paced.tumblr.com/post/133395490597/book-2-vs-season-2-sam-tarlys-love-life

 

(the.. I think is a girl, is also redoing a rewatch of Game of Thrones, with the benefit of hindsight: one episode per week, currently she just finished season 2; I recommend it to everyone, you can really see where a character starts diverging from the book counterpart, something often missed when the show first aired - benefit of the doubt indeed).

 

All in all, I found Season 1 to be really good: yes, there were some minor changes (I remember the uproar for showing Ned on par with Jaime at swordfighting, but I understand why they made it so), and I was bummed they said 'no dreams, no flashbacks, no visions', but something had to be left out for time constraints anyway.

Nah, I started being annoyed by some adaptational choices in season 2: their Stannis treatment was iffy to me, and the way they butchered Jon's arc - Qhorin! - by having him being even brattier and managing to botch the mission... ah, and Talisa, their reworking of Outlander in Westeros XD

Yeah, better not to think of Season 2.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Terra Nova

[vibeology]

Well, as said upthread the Tyrell were already planning to pull an Anne Boleyn and make Bob  'divorce' Cersei. But this could have been done only if Cersei was to be found guilty of... um, dunno, treason and incest?

On re-reads, it's quite clear that the Tyrell (or Renly only, or Renly and Loras) knew about the incest; and of course, it makes sense: the Tyrell would like Margaery's children to inherit the Throne, not just having them as princes until Joffrey ascends the throne and avenges his mom, refused and humiliated because of them. This means they have to nullify the marriage with Cersei and remove the Lannister children from the royal line: the incest-gate would have worked for both.

 

I like that both in show and in book its very clear once you reread that everyone in power seems to know about the twincest. We spend the book with Ned, trying to figure out the terrible secret that killed Jon Arryn but really, it's not a secret at all. We know Littlefinger, Jon, Stannis, Renly, Varys, at least some Tyrells and Tyrion strongly suspect it. Cersei again has no idea that she isn't even a little bit smart and sneaky.

 

I just think its a great storytelling trick that the mystery we spend a whole book/season figuring out isn't really all that mysterious and most of the powerful people in King's Landing know exactly what's going on. I don't even think it makes Ned look bad; no one would risk actually saying anything about it and knowing what the consequences are its actually insane that Cersei does the things she does.

[WSmith84]

Renly definitely didn't know about the incest. If he did, he would have told Robert straight away. Unlike Stannis, it doesn't make him next in-line for the throne and so appears less self-serving. Couple that with the hot young bride from the second wealthiest region in Westeros who could soon pop out some trueborns for Robert, all set up by Renly, and Renly doesn't appear self-serving at all. Why wouldn't he just tell Ned about it? It would probably have put Ned on the scent much quicker, and Robert would be more likely to believe his best friend than his younger brother.

 

I think Renly was hoping that Robert would divorce Cersei, or send her to the Silent Sisters so he could marry again, or, at worse, make Margaery his mistress. That's certainly Stannis' impression when they meet to parley. And mistresses can wield a great deal of power; Melissa Blackwood was well-loved at court, so much so that Bloodraven was able to remain at court after her dismissal and he had plenty of good connections thanks to her. The Blackwoods actually groomed her to be Aegon's mistress.

 

On my rewatch, I found that I had a very different reaction to Ros than I did the first couple of times I watched it. The first time, I didn't know she was a created character, but came to being annoyed by her because she usually meant a brothel scene was coming up. Now, I'm annoyed that she's there when several minor characters were cut and secondary characters were reduced, but I appreciate what the actress did with her.

[Terra Nova]

My opinion was completely formed by the as usual excellent Steven Attewell; here in particular:

 

https://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2015/03/27/chapter-by-chapter-analysis-catelyn-iii-acok/

 

(it's the chapter where Cat witnesses Stannis and Renly parlay before the imment battle. The quote is extra-long but I think it's worthy)

 

 

As Catelyn points out, Stannis’ own conception of monarchy as founded on the right of inheritance by blood hinges on the truth of his public statement about the paternity of Cersei’s children:

 

 

 

“You are very free to name others traitor and usurper, my lord, yet how are you any different, you say you alone are the rightful king, yet it seems to me that Robert had two sons. By all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms…we are all traitors, however good our reasons.

“Joffrey is not my brother’s seed…nor is Tommen. They are bastards. The girl as well. All three of them abominations born of incest.”

“Isn’t that a sweet story, my lady?…I was camped at Horn Hill when Lord Tarly received his letter, and I must say, it took my breath away…I had never suspected you were so clever, Stannis. Were it only true, you would indeed be Robert’s heir.”

“Were it true? Do you name me a liar?”

“Can you prove any word of this fable?”

“Lord Stannis…if you knew the queen to be guilty…why did you keep silent?”

“I did not keep silent…I brought my suspicions to Jon Arryn…from me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would be more disposed to listen if the charges came from Lord Arryn, who he loved.”

“Ah,” said Renly. “So we have the word of a dead man.”

“…Cersei had him poisoned, for fear he would reveal her. Lord Jon had been gathering certain proofs-“

“-which doubtless died with him. How inconvenient…”

“My sister Lysa accused the queen of killing her husband in a letter she sent me at Winterfell…”

everal threads come together here: Catelyn’s presence is absolutely key to this debate, because she provides a link back to Lysa’s letter, the attack on Bran (although she won’t put two-and-two together until next Catelyn chapter), and Ned’s investigation. And her confirmation of Stannis’ claims is important, because it throws into harsh relief Renly’s pretense of skepticism and disbelief. It suits Renly at this moment to pretend that he was ignorant of the incest, because as long as Joffrey is the rightful king, Stannis and Renly are equal as traitors (as Catelyn acknowledges) and the choice between them can be reduced to the qualities of the individual.

But beneath Renly’s appearance of doubt (and how appropriate is it that all of Renly’s challenges to Stannis’ letter are all about the appearance of Stannis’ argument rather than the fact of the claim?), he absolutely knew the truth all along. I recognize that this is a rather controversial claim, but bear with me. Let us begin with the fact that all of the Small Council – Littlefinger, Varys, Pycelle, Jon Arryn, Stannis, and Eddard – knew about the incest. Does it seem likely that someone with Renly’s skill in the game of thrones would be the only one to be ignorant of the truth, to not have spies on Cersei to overhear or see her coupling with Jaime or to not have spies on Jon Arryn or Stannis or Eddard to find out what they had uncovered? Moreover, consider Renly’s offer to Ned in AGOT: why would Renly fear for his life at Cersei’s hands if he didn’t know that a live Baratheon was an existential threat to Cersei (or if he thought Cersei knew he knew)? Third, as Stannis himself points out, Renly’s Tyrell Conspiracy doesn’t make sense if he didn’t know:

 

 

“A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert’s whores.”

“A year ago, I was scheming to make the girl Robert’s queen…but what does it matter?

If Renly thought that Joffrey and Tommen were legitimate heirs, there’s no point in making Margaery Robert’s queen. Even if Robert set aside Cersei as Queen Consort, she would remain Queen Mother to the Crown Prince of Westeros, and the future King Joffrey would surely revenge himself on the woman who displaced his mother and the men who supported her. Nor would Mace Tyrell agree to marry his daughter if it didn’t mean he would get what he wants most, “that one day he may see his grandson with his arse on the Iron Throne.” (ASOS) Those who argue that the Tyrells would simply try to displace Cersei’s children with Margaery’s children miss a vital point: there would be no legal means of doing so. When the Hightowers attempted to replace the Arryns in the succession during the reign of Viserys I, they could argue that a male child comes before a female child; when Unwin Peake sought to replace Queen Jaehaera with his own daughter, Jaehaera and King Aegon III had had no issue; when the Hightowers and the Harroways and Tyanna of the Tower attempted to supplant one another in the succession through Maegor, they did so because Maegor had no heirs.

The only way for Mace to achieve his ambitions, and for Renly to persuade him that a marriage between Margaery and Robert was the way to do it would be to put Joffrey and Tommen out of the line of succession. Indeed, given the extreme difficulty of a King putting aside his wife – see Aegon IV and his wife Naerys – there would also need to be a reason to set Cersei aside. And the reason for both of these things was there at hand: Cersei’s incest and the illegitimacy of her sons.

And there is one final piece of evidence as to why Renly knew – and the evidence was living under his own roof for the last twelve years. Everyone who’s ever looked Edric Storm in the face has seen the living image of Robert Baratheon and compared that to the utter lack of semblance between Robert and Joffrey, and Renly would have seen Edric regularly. Once again, Renly was not a stupid man and as Varys says, “the bastards were there for all to see…so when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister’s thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse.” And with Loras Tyrell fostered at Storm’s End as Renly’s page and squire, Renly would have the perfect witness to testify to Mace Tyrell that Cersei and her children could be set aside at the opportune moment.

No wonder Renly defaults to “you may have the better claim, Stannis, but I still have the larger army.”

 

In the comment section to that analysis is further argued that Renly could have been named Regent, in a perfect scenario, thus ruling de facto the Realm, and later Hand when Margaery's son would have turned 16. At that point it would have been only natural for him to continue as Hand to a very weak king, or at least, a king who's been carefully shaped by Renly for his entire life.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Terra Nova

[vibeology]

I agree with that analysis. It does Renly little good to push Cersei out before he has a plan to replace her ready to go. Let's face it, Robert was an angry and proud man. If Renly had gone to him with twincest claims, Robert might have taken his word for it, killed Cersei and the kids and moved on or he might have been proud and ashamed and punished Renly for making him look bad and covered it up because he didn't want the kingdom to know he was a cuckhold. By getting Margaery to King's Landing first and getting Robert interested in her, Robert has far more reason to put aside his marriage. If he wants to sleep with Marg and she won't do it, he's motivated to get rid of Cersei and would be more receptive to Renly's claim.

 

Just telling Robert was about the dumbest thing a person could have done. Besides risking his anger if he does put Cersei aside he could end up marrying anyone. Its a power vacuum. Renly wanted to get his ducks in a row before acting because to act otherwise, Robert could have married Arianne Martell or Asha Greyjoy or Sansa or any other woman who wouldn't have benefitted Renly.

[stillshimpy]

Well, as said upthread the Tyrell were already planning to pull an Anne Boleyn and make Bob  'divorce' Cersei.

 

There's a huge difference between trying to overthrow your brother, the King, without whom you would have no actual power of your own....and trying to get him to divorce his wife and take another.   It's seem obvious that Renly didn't know about the incest, but he did know that his brother was screwing around plenty and seemed to understand why that was.  He asked Ned Stark if Margaery's portrait reminded him of anyone, clearly hoping that Ned would say "Lyanna."  He also might have known, but planned on sort of easing Robert into the knowledge of it by giving him a heartfelt alternative before breaking the news. 

 

Overthrowing his brother vs. trying to get him to fall in love with someone else, to form a political alliance are just two separate things. 

 

It's also a little difficult to get het up over Renly wanting Robert to set Cersei aside, which lets face it, that was Tywin's plan for Cersei with Rhaegar too, but it's hardly upsetting when they are demonstrably miserable.  Get your brother to fall in love vs. (in all likelihood) killing him?  Yeah, one rates as "eh...yeah, okay" and the other is "Oh my god, you suck." 

 

The story that still remained snoring-boring in the series was Dany's story.  Viserys is at least a full character on the screen, but Dany's entire arc is a little tinny, you know?  The show didn't really change that much for me.  

Edited March 29, 2016 by stillshimpy

[mac123x]

I didn't really mind Loras' introduction as a manipulative schemer. It jarred me at first, but then I assumed it was to gradually introduce the Tyrells as players. Then when we met Marge, it made a lot more sense. Unfortunately, it was just about that time that they completely dropped that aspect of Loras. Once G'ma Tyrell hit the scene, all Tyrell men were brainless idiots.

 

One of the S5 commentary tracks (I think it was Natalie Dormer, Dean-Charles Chapman, and the director), someone pointed out that the actor for Mace Tyrell is basing his performance on I, Claudius during the reigns of his predecessors: i.e., the bumbling idiot façade is a cover.  That may well be his acting choice, but the script doesn't support it very much -- except for once scene in Braavos.  He called the Iron Bank gamblers.  The banker he was talking to took exception to this, and he pointed out that lending people money made them the biggest gamblers around, and it paid off handsomely.  It was a pretty shrewd observation for a buffoon to make.  Then he started singing. 

 

So, genuine idiot, or pretend-idiot?  It's hard to tell.  I kind of think the actor is just trying to make the best of the writing.

[WSmith84]

So, genuine idiot, or pretend-idiot?  It's hard to tell.  I kind of think the actor is just trying to make the best of the writing.

 

I think genuine idiot, in the show. Maybe with Pycelle playing the doddering old man, they didn't want Mace pretending to be a buffoon, thinking that the two characters would be too similar. However, it's ridiculous to think of show Mace surviving for very long in the cutthroat world of Westerosi politics; he seems too easily bullied and ignored. I suppose that was done to make Olenna appear better, but with Westeros being as sexist as it is, there would be some lords who'd refuse to deal with her. I can't imagine Randyll Tarly making deals with Olenna, when he could be dealing with Mace directly (and probably getting a better deal).

[Avaleigh]

I think genuine idiot, in the show.

I think what sealed the deal for me was how proud and puffed up Mace looked when Tywin told him to fetch him a pen and paper. 

[Terra Nova]

There's a huge difference between trying to overthrow your brother, the King, without whom you would have no actual power of your own....and trying to get him to divorce his wife and take another.   

 

I don't think Renly had any dream of becoming King up until the boar butchered Bob. So of course, no plans of overthrowing or killing his brother. I am sorry if my comment gave the idea I was implying that. I suppose Renly wanted to become Hand ,or anyway shape any future heir to the throne so to benefit greatly once the kid became king, but Robert's death gave an opening to his ambitions he could have never hoped to gain otherwise.

 

No, the problems of overthrowing a brother came only later, with Stannis. As Renly himself says, 'he has the better claim... whilst he lives.' But by that point Renly was advocating the incredibly disruptive policy of 'might makes right', twisting the events that caused Bob to ascend the Throne and reducing them to 'Robert's hammer gave him all the claim he needed'. Of course it's untrue. The Lords pledging him fealty gave him the claim. Or the drop of Targ blood, if you want to go with the conservative route. The same rules dictate that Stannis is the heir, if Bob's children are indeed born of incest. There is no way for Renly to be king, following the rules within the system.

 

This late version of Renly would have probably happily schemed to kill Robert, but at this point his ambition had already severely clouded his judgement.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Shanna Marie]

HBO has put season one up On Demand, so I can do the rewatch. I watched the pilot last night. I found it rather sad watching the kids together and knowing that they'd spend the rest of the series separated. While I think aging up the kids was the right thing to do because it's hard to imagine 14-15 year olds doing the things that Robb and Jon do, and even harder to imagine the younger kids doing the things they end up doing, they didn't age up the adults and the kids on the same scale. It seems like the kids were aged up 3-5 years, while the adults were aged up 10-20 years.

 

I have to admit that I'm still a little baffled that Jon isn't so well-liked. I was already favorably inclined toward him in his initial scene when he seemed to have such a good relationship with his siblings, and he was the one being supportive of Bran during the execution, but he really had me when he saved the puppies. They were going to kill the puppies, and he did some fast thinking to come up with a reason that they were an omen and had to be saved. That alone won my undying loyalty. It didn't matter how much he pouted after that because a guy who rescues orphaned puppies gets a lot of leeway in my book.

 

I feel like the depiction of Jaime was a big fail somewhere along the way, like something wasn't communicated to the actor. I can understand an actor not wanting to read the books because the show and the books are different things and he'd want to be portraying the show character, but if the writers optioned the series on the basis of the Red Wedding, then they'd gone far enough into the series to have a better sense of what was going on with Jaime, and they could have added a stage direction to the script if there was nothing in the context of the pilot script to clue the actor or director in on what really might be going on with that "the things I do for love" line. Then again, the way they portray Jaime is in line with the dudebro writing throughout the series. They probably missed the nuances about Jaime and thought he was being an awesome badass.

 

"There was a a line in a recent episode of the show where, he's not even present, but two people are talking about him and someone says 'Well, no one trusts Littlefinger' and 'Littlefinger has no friends.' And that's true of television show Littlefinger, but it's certainly not true of book Littlefinger. Book Littlefinger, in the book, everybody trusts him. Everybody trusts him because he seems powerless, and he's very friendly, and he's very helpful.

That's a really good point. Book Littlefinger comes across as trustworthy, until we really see what he's up to. On the show, where he's twirling his mustache, leering, and wearing a flashy button that says "Ask me about my evil scheme!" the other characters look like idiots for trusting him. From the book, he should come across as more like that nice, helpful, slightly nerdy boy next door.

[glowbug]

From some of the comments the TPTB made I think that the depiction of Jamie is mostly their responsibility. NCW is playing their version of the character. If he had been totally off the mark you would think the director would have directed him to act his scenes differently.

 

I also liked Jon as a character the first season but I still think Kit Harrington was miscast. He doesn't have the right look for the book character and on top of that he looks too old for the part. They aged his character up to 17 I believe (a decision I'm totally on board with) but Harrington was in his early twenties and looked it so some of his behavior came across a bit ludicrous. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by glowbug

[Alayne Stone]

It is impossible for me to watch the very first episodes of season 1 without getting extremely sad, especially when seeing all the Stark kids lined up as they wait for King Robert to arrive or when the boys find the direwolves in the snow. I always find myself thinking "Enjoy this while you can because it just allllll goes down hill from here."

 

I like Kit Harrington as Jon Snow, though admittedly I think he's really come into his own these last couple of seasons. I would imagine people not liking Jon in season 1 had more to do with his storyline at the wall because he is very sulky and immature toward his fellow recruits and basically anyone who isn't Benjen or Tyrion in the beginning.

 

Two scenes that always really stood out to be in the first episode: Mark Addy under the crypts remembering Lyanna Stark. His love and remorse for her created a Robert/Lyanne stan in me before I started reading the books and learned more about who the two of them were before the Rebellion. Mark did such a wonderful job in helping to create this lasting impression of the dead Stark sister who is always lingering in the background of key players' minds but never actually seen for obvious reasons.

 

The "All the Targaryens are dead" "Not all of them ..." segue to Dany and Viserys in Pentos was brilliantly crafted. I really, really liked Emilia Clarke in season 1 and always thought she was at her best when she was playing to Dany's vulnerability.

 

In other news ...

 

I'll spoiler tag this just in case there are people avoiding season 6 trailers and promos ...

 

Have you guys been paying attention to the promos for season 6? What is this show's obsession with death? The 30 second March Madness teaser ends with the High Septon saying "We all deserve to die" and Jaquen's Unkindly man promising Arya a face will be added to the wall. And now a new facebook promo invites users to add their face to the wall. I'm so sick of this motif. At what point do viewers just become completely desensitized to it all? I think it would be more OMG!SHOCKING! if they managed to go an episode without killing someone off. At this point you just come to expect it.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Shanna Marie]

I also liked Jon as a character the first season but I still think Kit Harrington was miscast. He doesn't have the right look for the book character and on top of that he looks too old for the part. They aged his character up to 17 I believe (a decision I'm totally on board with) but Harrington was in his early twenties and looked it so some of his behavior came across a bit ludicrous.

I like a lot of what Kit Harrington does in the role, but yeah, there's no way he's 17 (Cat has a speech about Ned going to war 17 years ago and coming back a year later with Jon, so he's not quite 17 at the beginning of the series). There are 20-something actors who can play teens, but he isn't one. He strikes me as the kind of person who either never really looked like a teen even when he was one or who transformed completely between teens and adulthood, so you wouldn't recognize him from his teen self. Some of Jon's sullenness may come from the fact that he has male resting bitch face. He comes across as really funny and engaging on talk shows, but when he's not smiling, he looks a bit like he's sulking. It's also not helped by the fact that they cast kids who look like kids for the younger roles, so the older boys look that much older in comparison. Both Robb and Jon look like 20-somethings instead of teens, and then they look even more like actual adults next to the children. Jon looks like he could be Arya's dad.

 

It is impossible for me to watch the very first episodes of season 1 without getting extremely sad, especially when seeing all the Stark kids lined up as they wait for King Robert to arrive or when the boys find the direwolves in the snow. I always find myself thinking "Enjoy this while you can because it just allllll goes down hill from here."

I found myself actually weeping a little last night when Robb and Jon were saying goodbye because I knew they'd never see each other again, and Arya and Jon's farewell in the scene with Needle also got me, though at least there's some hope there (more of why I was predisposed to like Jon before he went to the Wall and became a bit of a brat -- he was such a good big brother to Arya).

[GertrudeDR]

Yeah, if that was the only thing they had done to Renly and Loras -- making Loras into a schemer on par with the rest of his family -- I wouldn't consider it a great sin.  Combined with everything else?  

 

Yeah, shame on them. 

Oh, I don't disagree at all. I was just commenting on the introduction of Loras as a schemer, not anything else about that cringe-worthy scene.

 

From the books, Loras and Margaery seem about on par as far as scheming manipulators go - They are both Tyrells, Marge manipulates Tommen with kittens whereas Loras manipulates the Mountain's stallion with a mare. OK, neither of them is unfamiliar or uncomfortable with a bit of underhandedness (Loras moreso than we actually see from Marge). There is a lot of room in the books to project whatever you want into their motives. In the Show scene after Renly's death, Loras and Marge seem like equals in this particular scheme.

 

Going forward, however, Loras is uneeded once Gma Tyrell rolls in and he's reduced to a device to move the plot along with no agency of his own. Gma needs a pawn to marry to Sansa, check. LFinger needs to get info, check. Cersei needs to take down Marge, check. And in doing so they completely threw away the little work they did do in developing Loras.  So my actual problem is not only that he is reduced to a stereotype, but that he is reduced to cardboard after beginning to flesh him out. They treated him like a disposable character when it wouldn't have taken too terribly much effort to have him buy into the Sansa marriage (he is the heir, after all) or make it clear that he turned to Olyvar in grief rather than flirty fun. Instead he is just a mope who likes fringed sleeves and forgets Renly at the drop of a helmet. It's infuriating, even moreso because ROS superwhore gets so much screentime. If only Loras had tits.

[ambi76]

As I said before I would have been a big fan of a scheming Loras on the show. That his character was so drastically diminished/ret-conned after season 2 makes me still think Loras was the character D&D were talking about they wanted to write out in Blackwater (or there-abouts) but got a veto for that from GRRM saying the character would do something really important in the future books*.

 

People also speculated at first that Olenna would be folded into Margaery when Dormer got the role but someone probably told D&D how popular the Gma Redwyne is in fandom and they could get Diana Rigg. So Loras becomes Willas/Garlan/Elinor which are kinda non-characters in the books too so far.

 

But for me this also begs the question, what's the important thing Loras does that the character needed to be kept as a speaking extra for four more seasons (since all the other plot moving could have been done otherwise)?

 

He kills Cersei (if so, I guess we'll know after this season and it would kinda explain that ankward if not to say forced connection they built between the two) or Stannis (if so, that was given to Brienne like other stuff from his book material) or the Mountain (if so, he'll probably not look so fresh afterwards himself).

 

*Yeah, I know he also says this of Dothraki #126 and Belwas and Willas

(I think here it could be creating an alliance with the Martells like rumored in the show to happen via Olenna)

but in this case it seemed to have swayed D&D for whatever reason.

Edited April 1, 2016 by ambi76

[Terra Nova]

I'm going to spoiler this, since it's based in not-related GoT speculations

 

Seeing how Finn Jones will star the Iron Fist Netflix Series, I think it's reasonable to think Loras is offed by the end of this Season (I mantain the same for Jorah, since the actor made some negative remark about the showrunners' attitude); I think he will just die in prison, probably in some conflation of the Blue Bard storyline, because the Faith is eeeeevil and homophobic. This means that whatever they intended to make Loras still do has been scrapped for good or shifted to another character. Unless it happens in the next ten episodes: maybe he kills someone and is killed in the process.

 

As for the last four seasons, since it seems to me that they plan one season at the time, it's not like they decided from the start to reduce his role to some glorified extra, but more that every season they didn't develop a proper arc for the character, relying instead on the sparse scenes he was in to keep him around; this way he would have also provided some sort of glue to different parts of the plot, though as Ambi said, there were other ways for the plot to be moved forward.

[stillshimpy]

By the way, I eventually grew to like Kit Harrington in the role quite a bit, but the first season is almost unbearable, because he looks 25 if he looks a day and it just doesn't marry well with his behavior.  Plus, putting Jon onto the page suffered from the need to externalize his inner-monologue and there's a reason page Jon doesn't choose to say almost all the things he thinks about the "oh poor pitiful me" ....it's unseemly and whiny,  Plus Harrington made a bad choice in what he would choose to focus upon for Jon's emotionally animating force:  rather than choose being hurt-which-resulted-in-sadness, he chose emotionally-wounded-resulting-in-aggressive-whining-and-anger.   It's made worse by the fact that Bran is relatively stoic and so is Arya.  

 

I can't really blame Harrington, but that stuff is difficult to bring to life and have the character be likable.  Then in season two, with all the Ygritte material he went with the "hurt-resulting-in-sadness" animating force and....yeah, he kind of proved that there was no way to win with his material until he was acting like the age he already looked and that took kind of a long time.  

 

Plus, the show just hates humor that isn't based in Pod's sexual prowess, so Jon, who is capable of being funny and having a sense of humor, has none.  Ned, who wasn't a blockhead and didn't constantly look like most of his person was busy forming some sort of ulcer, similarly had no sense of humor onscreen beyond the pilot where he got to tease Robert with a look towards his waistline.  

 

 

 

It is impossible for me to watch the very first episodes of season 1 without getting extremely sad, especially when seeing all the Stark kids lined up as they wait for King Robert to arrive or when the boys find the direwolves in the snow. I always find myself thinking "Enjoy this while you can because it just allllll goes down hill from here."

 

Yeah, rewatching is kind of a grim affair because the first two seasons are a parade of soon-to-be-dead-Starks and Starks-about-to-be-emotionally-maimed.  Since the show took pains to remove almost all humor and to up the horror in a lot of instances, it's ....yeah.  Not uplifting at points.  

 

Also, just poor Michelle Fairley in so many instances.   She's called upon to do a lot that isn't all that easy and in the show she exhibits next to no good judgment.  

 

ETA: I just read your spec. Terra and I'll spoiler tag my response because it's a direct reply

Oh merciful Zeus, why hadn't it occurred to me that they'd start whittling someone in that Faith storyline?  I wouldn't be surprised if you're right.  Eek.

Edited April 1, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

I truly hope I am wrong

The show now is aiming for 8 seasons. This means that starting from S6 they will be forced to start and kill off characters. They can't just have them on pause, or being pushed back to S7 for some sort of closure: they just don't have the time. They won't get a ninth season, simpliy because they cut (or will cut in S6) and streamline so much the plot that any further lengthening would cause so much filler and backtracking, it would turn out to be a real mess. So yep, they know who's to start and make some more space for the rest of the narrative, and I am sure this already started in S6. Loras is only a natural choice, since they dropped the character long ago. Ok, he may be released by the Faith - not really, they consider homosexuality a sin in itself, so at least they will try to torture the gayness out of him first -, recover, and go out in a blaze of glory (killing Cersei, since it seems a popular theory), but I am pretty skeptical: this would mean a pretty meaty arc for a, at the moment, pretty secondary character. It would make more sense for him to die because of the torture and leave more screentime to the rest. Also, I don't think they would kill Cersei this early; I would bet on the end of S7. Finally, there's Iron Fist: there were claims of Brienne's arc in S5 being largely reduced because of her involvement with Star Wars - a pretty minor role, tbh -, so if that caused problems, I can't imagine Jones starring in Iron Fist and keeping his role on GoT 

 

Another big problem with Jon's arc is how, in the tv series, they cut almost completely the influence of Qhorin and what Jon learns from him. There is no smooth transition from the whiny brat Jon was in S1 to the natural born leader in S3; in S2, he's even brattier than before, he thinks he's entitled to go with Qhorin, only to be the direct responsible for the mission going awry and the death of all Qhorin's group. Actually, I would say he ends S2 being even more clueless than he was in S1. Even Qhorin's death is pushed on him by Qhorin himself, instead of being a painful choice on Jon's part, well knowing it was necessary (and with a careful twisting of the NW's oath by Qhorin, so that Jon can't refuse, very similar to how later Jon will try to convince the NW about letting the wildlings in and all the rest).

Edited April 1, 2016 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

By the way, I eventually grew to like Kit Harrington in the role quite a bit, but the first season is almost unbearable, because he looks 25 if he looks a day and it just doesn't marry well with his behavior.

Kit Harrington, Richard Madden, and John Bradley (Sam) all look waaay too old to be portraying teenagers.  Even clean-shaven.

 

In the books, GoT started 13 years after the end of Robert’s Rebellion.  The show changed that to 17 years.  I think it might have been wiser to make that 22 years or so. 

 

As far as I can remember, the only characters whose ages are tied to the war are Jon, Robb, Dany and the non-existent fAegon – making them early 20-somethings wouldn’t have changed the narrative much, except maybe having to explain why Robb hadn’t been married off yet and adding a line that the Nights Watch doesn’t take teen-agers because they’re not mature enough for a lifetime commitment.  They could have just increased the age gap between Robb and the other Stark kids and kept them their current ages.

It would also have eliminated the continuity error of Cercei and Robert having a child that died young before Joffrey was born. 

 

there were claims of Brienne's arc in S5 being largely reduced because of her involvement with Star Wars - a pretty minor role

Same thing with Tyrion in S4 so Peter Dinklage could work on that X-Men movie.  At least he was on-camera for that; Gwendoline Christie could have done all her work on Star Wars in an ADR booth in one day.  [/tangential rant]

Edited April 1, 2016 by mac123x

[WSmith84]

Same thing with Tyrion in S4 so Peter Dinklage could work on that X-Men movie.  At least he was on-camera for that; Gwendoline Christie could have done all her work on Star Wars in an ADR booth in one day.  [/tangential rant]

 

Star Wars spoiler

 

 

Clearly Captain Phasma should have been the one attacking Finn with an electric stick. That act made that random Stormtrooper (or TR-8R, as I like to call him) more badass than Phasma can now hope to be after her poor showing in Ep 7.

 

 

Anyways. I'm about to start my season 2 rewatch, and I'm really not looking forward to this one. I think Dev F said this, but it's probably the season that suffers most from its deviations from the source material (well, except season 5). It has Talisa (ugh), the Jaime-murdering-his-cousin scene and Renly and his fear of breasts. However, it does have the Blackwater, which is one of my favourite episodes of the show.

[Avaleigh]

I'm going to spoiler this, since it's based in not-related GoT speculations

 

Seeing how Finn Jones will star the Iron Fist Netflix Series, I think it's reasonable to think Loras is offed by the end of this Season (I mantain the same for Jorah, since the actor made some negative remark about the showrunners' attitude); I think he will just die in prison, probably in some conflation of the Blue Bard storyline, because the Faith is eeeeevil and homophobic. This means that whatever they intended to make Loras still do has been scrapped for good or shifted to another character. Unless it happens in the next ten episodes: maybe he kills someone and is killed in the process.

 

As for the last four seasons, since it seems to me that they plan one season at the time, it's not like they decided from the start to reduce his role to some glorified extra, but more that every season they didn't develop a proper arc for the character, relying instead on the sparse scenes he was in to keep him around; this way he would have also provided some sort of glue to different parts of the plot, though as Ambi said, there were other ways for the plot to be moved forward.

Regarding what I think will happen with Loras--

 

I think it's important to note that on the show, Loras and Margaery's fates seem to be tied together. She's going down for defending him so my guess is that he's going to fight in a trial by combat in order to clear both of their names only they'll end up losing. I'm guessing that Lancel is going to be the one to kill Loras so it'll make him look like more of a threat for when he has to take on Gregorstein. I doubt that viewers think of Lancel as somebody who's all that formidable of an opponent so to me it makes sense to have Lancel have a big win that makes him seem reasonably fierce so that there's at least some level of intensity when he ends up having to face Robert Strong. I think Lancel and Margaery will be tried before Cersei only because they were arrested first.

[Haleth]

Kit Harrington, Richard Madden, and John Bradley (Sam) all look waaay too old to be portraying teenagers. Even clean-shaven.

Since it's a show with dragons, giants, and ice zombies, I'm willing to overlook actors too old to be playing teenagers. :)

[Terra Nova]

@avaleigh

That would make a lot of sense since

they have never shown nor told that Loras on the show is a particularly skilled knight, while on the other and Lancel came back beefed up like crazy after being injured instead of becoming a cripple. So the latter winning a duel wouldn't strain credulity. I would say that it is illogical for Marg to risk death just for perjury, but this is basically the Faith Taliban and anyway characters do need to start and drop down

[Alayne Stone]

Can I just say how happy I am Finn will be in Iron Fist? All of the Marvel Netflix shows have been absolutely amazing so far. He'll finally get to dig in to some actual meaty material.

 

I have no idea what they will do to Loras but I almost want to see him killed off just so we don't have to endure their stupid portrayal of him any longer. I can see them going the Blue Bard route for sure though. Why miss a perfectly good opportunity to implement more "canon" torturing?

[Jazzy24]

Can I just say how happy I am Finn will be in Iron Fist? All of the Marvel Netflix shows have been absolutely amazing so far. He'll finally get to dig in to some actual meaty material

Speaking of this the actress who plays Nymeria Sand will also be in Iron Fist opposite of Finn playing the lead female character.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Jazzy24

[OhOkayWhat]

Terra, one of the things I am curious about is the reason you have to say this:

...I mantain the same for Jorah, since the actor made some negative remark about the showrunners' attitude...

 

About the negative remarks, are you talking about the Radiotimes article with Iain (Jorah) talking about the way the showrunners approach to the original material (books) in the show? Because maybe he is NOT saying negative remarks in that interview. If someone thinks that there is not problem at all if an actor brings the book vision of a character to the show, of course, it makes easier to think Iain was criticizing the showrunners, but if someone thinks, like I do, that there are cases when bringing the books vision can be a problem, then Iain was not criticizing, he was just describing how the showrunners like to work. In fact (if I remember it correctly), if you read the rest of the interview, he talks very well about the show, therefore, maybe he was NOT making negative remarks. Or perhaps you are not talking about that article and he in fact did that in other interview. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Terra Nova]

I was referring to the 'glazed eyes' of the showrunners whenever an actor mentioned the books. As I said upthread, the first time I mentioned that interview, I think it is a quite telling remark, in line with what the boosnobs came to believe. Maybe it is not negative in an absolute way, but in my opinion, the actors not biting the hand that feed them and stuff, it could be told only by someone who's done with the show.

In fact, Ian McElhinney, Aimee Richardson and Stephen Dillane criticized/complained/said something that if you squint your eyes may appear not completely praising only after they left/got fired.

IMHO, Jorah bites it this season, not bc of greyscale, and that remark is part of the reason why I think so. Not that I particularly care, I won't watch S6, it may be futile but I want to avoid even potential book spoilers as much as possible. I do not believe when they say S6 won't spoil the books and if that's the case I am not interested in fanfiction, anyway.

[OhOkayWhat]

Terra, but that is my point: maybe Iain understand the vision of the showrunners about the books in the show, and when he mentions "the glazed look in their eyes" he is just describing a behavior in a particular moment and he is not using the phrase to criticize what the showrunners think (in a general sense) about the issue. Therefore we cannot conclude he is done with the show because of that commentary, because maybe he did not mean anything bad about them with those words. It is like this:

 

-He can criticize them only if he is done with the show.

-He criticized them with those words.

-Therefore he is done with the show.

 

Makes sense until you find the problem with it, and the problem is this: what if he did NOT say those words to criticize them. If he did not say those words to criticize them, then the rest of the reasoning falls apart.

 

Besides that, i think, in the rest of the interview, he praises the show.

Edited April 2, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[WindyNights]

I was referring to the 'glazed eyes' of the showrunners whenever an actor mentioned the books. As I said upthread, the first time I mentioned that interview, I think it is a quite telling remark, in line with what the boosnobs came to believe. Maybe it is not negative in an absolute way, but in my opinion, the actors not biting the hand that feed them and stuff, it could be told only by someone who's done with the show.

In fact, Ian McElhinney, Aimee Richardson and Stephen Dillane criticized/complained/said something that if you squint your eyes may appear not completely praising only after they left/got fired.

IMHO, Jorah bites it this season, not bc of greyscale, and that remark is part of the reason why I think so. Not that I particularly care, I won't watch S6, it may be futile but I want to avoid even potential book spoilers as much as possible. I do not believe when they say S6 won't spoil the books and if that's the case I am not interested in fanfiction, anyway.

This was Aimee Richardson's response to the Sansa rape scene on her Tumblr when someone asked her about it:

I don’t still watch it sorry! I don’t want to seem like I’m just slating Game of Thrones because they recast me so I haven’t actually said anything about the Sansa rape scene yet, but since you ask…

Are we really going to say that what is widely considered to be the best TV series ever made can’t do any better than graphic rape scenes?!?!?! Are you kidding me?!?! BRO!!! I know a lot of criticism for this series has been how little they’ve stuck to the books, which I have no strong feelings on as I’ve never read them and it is only an adaptation of them so they technically do have the right to change it, although I do get fans’ frustration about it! So some people defending this scene have been saying “well it was in the book so at least they kept it”/“blame the books” etc, but of all the storylines to keep, after completely cutting storylines like Arienne Martell and Lady Stoneheart, which featured badass strong women, they decide the storyline they will keep is one of rape? Taking Sansa (who Sophie is so incredible at playing) from the huge high she was on at the end of s4, when she finally came into her own and stuck a metaphorical middle finger up at the Lannisters etc, and throwing this at her just as she seemed to be finding some power and getting some control over her life?!?!?!

I’m absolutely not slating the show on a whole here, and as I said I’ve been trying not to get involved because I don’t want to just slag off the show that pretty much fired me, but the unnecessary rape scenes have made me angry, I’m not going to hide it

[Hecate7]

@avaleigh

That would make a lot of sense since

they have never shown nor told that Loras on the show is a particularly skilled knight, while on the other and Lancel came back beefed up like crazy after being injured instead of becoming a cripple. So the latter winning a duel wouldn't strain credulity. I would say that it is illogical for Marg to risk death just for perjury, but this is basically the Faith Taliban and anyway characters do need to start and drop down

 

They showed Loras beat the Mountain, but they also showed that he cheated. They also established that he unseated Jaime Lannister, who was considered the world's greatest jouster and swordsman. Loras did get his butt kicked by Brienne of Tarth, but so does everyone.