Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[Constantinople]

To the extent it makes a difference, valonqar means "little brother", not "younger brother".

 

But why use a Valyrian word at all?

Edited December 5, 2015 by Constantinople

[bobbybuilderton]

To the extent it makes a difference, valonqar means "little brother", not "younger brother".

 

But why use a Valyrian word at all?

As for the second part...My guess was always because she was a foreigner and sometimes people slip in words from their first language when they know a second one. On a meta level, it was probably just to make people speculate. 

[WindyNights]

Actually Jaime is the most obvious choice because most people don't believe it'll be Tyrion.

Also consider the fact that Maggy says hands. I don't think Jaime could choke anyone with his gold hand.

[DigitalCount]

But Jaime isn't an obvious choice; he's not a choice at all. There is nothing pointing at the resolution of Jaime's arc being murdering his sister. If Cersei hadn't thought it was Tyrion, no one would think it was Jaime. And not only does the plot not support this, but the words of the prophecy itself disqualify him, because neither the question nor the answer identify Cersei's brothers as potential candidates.

I do think that it's possible to see the removal of the second half of the third answer as proving that Jaime is the valonqar, but not because of the reason stated by Sean. If George made a mistake and plans to have Jaime be the valonqar, it's because he didn't read the dialogue out loud, with no breaks for finding out how Cersei's doing or how the Frog is doing in the middle of the answer. If you read it as two people talking--rather than people talking and then waiting for the narrator to stop droning on and on about other stuff--then it rather clearly states that the younger brother is chosen out of the three kids with golden crowns and golden shrouds (interesting that these three mystery people are just accepted as Cersei's kids without argument from fans, and then they're unceremoniously shoved aside because it's all about Cersei).

So basically, George didn't realize that he was saying something other than what he wanted to say thanks to the medium, and D&D understood once they were plotting the scene that the phrase is wrong as written and Jaime doesn't qualify. In other words, they fixed his mistake.

I would have accepted that up until a few months ago until I re-read Feast and noticed, just as stillshimpy did, that the prophecy was given to us in pieces in the books too, and in a stupid order. George does everything possible to establish that Cersei thinks it's Tyrion before we even know why, and once we do we're more than willing to accept that one of Cersei's brothers is a candidate, even though that makes no sense. This is only made clearer by the intermission, parade, and tap-dancing routine that occurs between the parts of the prophecy that have to be separated to maintain the illusion. So if they're doing it in parts instead of just all in one go, well, that's exactly what the book did too. The difference in medium makes it hard to do the same type of payoffs; witness Arstan Whitebeard. The fact remains that none of the Frog's other answers had these artificial separations, and so whenever people enact a cover-up or distraction like that, the question becomes: what are they covering up?

[glowbug]

Actually Jaime is the most obvious choice because most people don't believe it'll be Tyrion.

Also consider the fact that Maggy says hands. I don't think Jaime could choke anyone with his gold hand.

 

What I meant by "obvious" is that the narrative makes Tyrion the obvious choice. Tyrion already hates Cersei and has hated her for long time, and Cersei believes him to be the valonqar so it's the only theory put forth by the text. With this series most readers don't actually take things at face value so I'm sure a lot of readers don't expect it to be him. The joke will be on us if he really is the valonquar.

[SeanC]

There is nothing pointing at the resolution of Jaime's arc being murdering his sister.

Jaime's arc has been about his falling out with Cersei, so him having to kill her at the end is hardly out of step with that.

 

So basically, George didn't realize that he was saying something other than what he wanted to say thanks to the medium, and D&D understood once they were plotting the scene that the phrase is wrong as written and Jaime doesn't qualify. In other words, they fixed his mistake.

I doubt that very much.  Even if you accept that your reading is the only possible way to read those words (even though almost nobody reads them that way), the obvious thing would be to modify the words to correspond with the intended meaning, not eliminate them altogether.  And GRRM is a far more detail-oriented writer than D&D, so I'm quite sure he said what he meant.

Edited December 6, 2015 by SeanC

[bobbybuilderton]

Yeah I don't think he didn't realize what he was doing. I actually think it was totally on purpose that he did it, to distract us. I think the break where you see her thoughts were so that we wouldn't connect the two parts. I also don't think this is the only way to read it though. 

[DigitalCount]

Jaime's arc has been about his falling out with Cersei, so him having to kill her at the end is hardly out of step with that.

 

I doubt that very much.  Even if you accept that your reading is the only possible way to read those words (even though almost nobody reads them that way), the obvious thing would be to modify the words to correspond with the intended meaning, not eliminate them altogether.  And GRRM is a far more detail-oriented writer than D&D, so I'm quite sure he said what he meant.

His falling out with Cersei, not his becoming murderously obsessed with Cersei. He's become estranged and started to walk his own path. I'm sure it's been noted before, but he starts out the series willing to kill because of Cersei. Is he going to end the series willing to kill because of Cersei?

 

Also, the reason why almost nobody reads them that way is because of the intermission, parade and tap-dancing routine that occurs between the parts of the prophecy that need to remain separated. If the Frog had just said outright "you'll have 3 kids; they'll rule, die and the younger brother will kill you" without a break there would be no discussion about how Cersei would meet her demise.

 

(or maybe there would be; after all, the Frog identifies whose hands (the valonqar's; "his hands") wrap around whose pale white throat (Cersei's; "your pale white throat") but never makes the valonqar Cersei's valonqar (the valonqar) and yet almost everyone is fine with reading it as "your valonqar" and giving Cersei a bonus prophecy answer after the Frog explicitly limited her to three questions...maybe people would just come up with some random stuff anyway)

Edited December 6, 2015 by DigitalCount

[SeanC]

His falling out with Cersei, not his becoming murderously obsessed with Cersei. 

You're starting from the assumption that his killing Cersei would be "murder".  If Cersei burns down KL (as often speculated) or any number of other villainous possibilities, killing her may be something done to stop her from doing more damage and/or avenge those she's killed, akin to Jaime's killing of Aerys.

 

I'm sure it's been noted before, but he starts out the series willing to kill because of Cersei. Is he going to end the series willing to kill because of Cersei?

Going from being inseparable from Cersei and willing to kill on her behalf to killing her is a pretty big change.

 

Also, the reason why almost nobody reads them that way is because of the intermission, parade and tap-dancing routine that occurs between the parts of the prophecy that need to remain separated. If the Frog had just said outright "you'll have 3 kids; they'll rule, die and the younger brother will kill you" without a break there would be no discussion about how Cersei would meet her demise.

You are not the first person to gather Maggy's prophesies in one place and attempt to read them together.

Edited December 6, 2015 by SeanC

[DigitalCount]

You're starting from the assumption that his killing Cersei would be "murder".  If Cersei burns down KL (as often speculated) or any number of other villainous possibilities, killing her may be something done to stop her from doing more damage and/or avenge those she's killed, akin to Jaime's killing of Aerys.

 

Going from being inseparable from Cersei and willing to kill on her behalf to killing her is a pretty big change.

So he's learned nothing. Running off half-cocked like the arrogant teenager he was so many years ago and still obsessed with his sister to the point of killing. It's not like the prophecy says nothing specific about how she dies, it's a choking death. Under normal circumstances that's an incredibly intimate way to kill someone, which doesn't really track with the idea that time is of the essence in this scenario. He may not be the knight he once was, but given that he was able to overpower her when he was unarmed by Joffrey's body, I think he would manage to kill her without needing to choke her to death. Choking the life from someone is not a mercy killing. It is not a quick way to limit the damage they can do. And if it's vengeance he's after...well, that's technically murder.

 

Look, obviously you think it's Jaime, and of course you would. And it very well could be, though I'd lose a heck of a lot of respect for George as an author and Jaime as a character under those circumstances. I've never claimed to be the first person to read the prophecies in this manner, though I think I subject the words to a stricter standard than even most of the other people who consider Tommen to be a viable candidate. What I object to is the idea that Jaime is a stronger candidate than Tommen or the practically canon sense in which most fans treat this. How can it be Jaime? I've heard a lot of scenarios under which Jaime might kill Cersei, and they're great after-the-fact justifications. How does the prophecy implicate him, though?

[magdalene]

Well, if GRRM said that folks are overthinking the prophesy on who kills Cersei, than obviously the obvious one would be Tyrion.  But I always thought that would be too ...obvious, ha. For such a tricksy writer. And Tyrion has already killed his father and wants to kill Jaime. Wouldn't it be over-kill if he killed his sister?

[Alayne Stone]

I would say "overthinking prophecies" would be more in line with thinking it is anyone other than Tyrion and Jaime. They are both her younger brothers. If it's Tyrion, it will be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Cersei mistreated him to the point where killing her will almost be self-defense. Jaime makes sense more narratively. That "We came into the world together. We'll leave it the same way" (paraphrasing on my part) line always struck me as important. Then there's the fact that Jaime can't truly grow as a person without cutting ties with Cersei completely.

 

And then there's the fact that there are still caches of wild fire hidden all over the city and aside from Tyrion, Cersei's probably the only one left in King's Landing who knows about them. I don't see the possibility of Jaime murdering Cersei as a crime of passion. I see it coming under the circumstances of trying to save the city once more, and he'll be twice (thrice?) damned because he will become a kinslayer as well as a kingslayer and a man without honor ... yet under those circumstances it would probably be one of his finest acts.

 

So in not overthinking this prophesy, it's either Tyrion or Jaime. My money's on Jaime.

[WindyNights]

Then there's the fact that Jaime can't truly grow as a person without cutting ties with Cersei completely.

He's already done this. He burned the letter that Cersei sent him and decided not to go save her. Also add in that he won't be returning to KL for a while on account of being with LS who is likely going to use him for her own ends before she tries to kill him. I doubt Cersei will still be in KL by the time he comes back if he ever does.

[WindyNights]

Anyways if GRRM thinks we're overthinking it then it seems the prophecy may just refer to Tyrion and Marge. Reason being that it's a Voldemort type situation where-in she creates YMBQ that'll take all that she holds dear and the little brother that wants to kill her.

[stillshimpy]

But Jaime isn't an obvious choice; he's not a choice at all. There is nothing pointing at the resolution of Jaime's arc being murdering his sister.

 

Well, I think that a full-circle approach to his characterization might include being willing to kill Cersei to protect someone else.  He started the book by trying to murder a child, primarily to protect Cersei's life from Robert.  It can be argued that it was for their children, etc. but when Joffrey dies we learn that Jaime doesn't even think of them as his children.  They are just the weeds he accidentally planted in Cersei's garden, or whatever fully disturbing image he had of them. 

 

Now, off the top of my head I can't envision a scenario where it becomes necessary for Jaime to kill Cersei in order to protect a child, or protect Bran Stark, for that matter, which really would complete a redemption arc entirely, but if Martin wanted to, he could there and have it work. 

 

He's had a falling out with Cersei, but Cersei is continually being equated to narcotic substance to which Jaime was addicted, to the debasement of all about him.  He's had to accept that Cersei was likely lying to him about multiple things, all of their lives.  When Martin wrote both Cat and Ned as thinking wouldn't they have also done whatever it took to protect their children?  I had to roll my eyes.  No one who really loves their kids runs around justifying the actions of the people that have maimed them while attempting to kill that child.  It was such a stretch that it felt very false to me. 

 

Then in this book he writes of Jaime's reactions to Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen.  He didn't try and kill Brandon Stark to protect them, he tried to kill him to protect his sexual access to and relationship with Cersei.  

 

So I guess one method of character growth would be to have him actually live up to what Cat and Ned thought he was doing in the first place.  Doing something regrettable and horrible because it was necessary to protect a world.  

Separately I've just finished Brienne's Rorg and Biter chapter.  

 

I typed that as enthusiastically as I felt about it.  My reaction was "Oh, great these fuckers again."  I'm not sure if it was Hyle or Gendry driving a sword through Biter's face there at the end, but I could have done without Brienne's face being eaten alive first.  Ugh.  I likely should have guessed that was who was out there with the descriptions of what was being done to the people of the Saltpans.  

 

Burn the fucking bodies, Brienne, Hyle, Gendry et all.  For fucking real, get it done, get it over with and get those icky creatures off of my Kindle screen.  

 

Also. boo hiss on the arrival of the baddies just in time for Brienne to be prevented from telling Gendry "Uh, you're a dead ringer for Robert Baratheon.  I don't think that's a coincidence" because he'd know it was the truth.  Two Hands came to meet him, the Gold Cloaks were sent to kill him, he'd know it was the truth.  

 

Boy the poor Inn ought to do itself a favor and self-immolate.  It's been the scene of more horror than King's Landing. 

[SeanC]

How does the prophecy implicate him, though?

Because he is Cersei's younger brother.

Boy the poor Inn ought to do itself a favor and self-immolate.  It's been the scene of more horror than King's Landing. 

Obvious "crossroads" symbolism for all the characters who go there, indeed.

 

Brienne's stand at the Inn is one of the more purely heroic actions in the series.

[stillshimpy]

Brienne's stand at the Inn is one of the more purely heroic actions in the series.

 

That's entirely true and I loved that she understood that she was outnumbered and just plain-old screwed, but she also knew that she had no choice. To die trying to do the right thing would be the way she'd want to go out. 

 

It would be kind of fun if Meribald was the person who killed Biter, but I think it was Gendry, who was so ticked off at Arya over the soup business because it let people like Rorg and Biter free.   One line I wish hadn't been missing from the show was Gendry bitterly observing that Biter "eats people" in that "thanks a lot for letting that splendid fucktard out and into the world, Arya.  Keep it up and we'll all end as someone's dinner at this rate" way. 

 

The show and the books have now diverged so much that I spend a lot of time wishing that these stories had been allowed to play out on screen.  Sans face-eating, beign something of a given. 

[bobbybuilderton]

snip

The show and the books have now diverged so much that I spend a lot of time wishing that these stories had been allowed to play out on screen.  Sans face-eating, beign something of a given. 

I've waited so long to see those words written

[WSmith84]

I've waited so long to see those words written

 

I have a feeling shimpy will be saying that a lot when she reads the true Northern plot in Dance :)

[bobbybuilderton]

I have a feeling shimpy will be saying that a lot when she reads the true Northern plot in Dance :)

The sad thing is the people who sincerely think the show improved these plots....Brienne goes from doing nearly nothing to....doing nothing.

[Alayne Stone]

That's not true.

 

Brienne waits very patiently for a candle to be lit.

[Eegah]

After that scene in Season 4 where Rorge and Biter randomly show up to be killed by Arya and Sandor, a lot of book fans were understandably confused, thinking it would make Brienne's story even more plotless. Which...yeah, that's pretty much how it ended up.

[Brn2bwild]

Shimpy, based on your comments, are you past the next Arianne chapter?  If so, what did you think of the reveals?

[ImpinAintEasy]

Shimpy, based on your comments, are you past the next Arianne chapter?  If so, what did you think of the reveals?

I don't believe she is there yet. The Brienne chapter comes a few chapters before that. I am looking forward to her thoughts on the next Jaime chapter. I'm a few chapters ahead of Shimpy, and I gotta say, while AFFC is my least favorite of the books, the closing chapters are really good, and Jaime's chapters once he leaves Kings Landing are some of my favorite in the entire series.

[glowbug]

I actually loved the last 20% of AFfC despite not caring for the book as a whole. It took me a couple months to get through it but I think I finished the last fifth in a day or two. The last chapter of one POV completely redeemed a storyline

Dorne

that I hadn't been thrilled with before.

[mrspidey]

So basically, George didn't realize that he was saying something other than what he wanted to say thanks to the medium, and D&D understood once they were plotting the scene that the phrase is wrong as written and Jaime doesn't qualify. In other words, they fixed his mistake.

Only to introduce another, though. Season 5 spoiler:

With Myrcellla already dead, she will never wear a crown.

[Delta1212]

Only to introduce another, though. Season 5 spoiler:

With Myrcellla already dead, she will never wear a crown.

You can get around that simply by interpreting

"crown" as a metaphor for hair.

[Constantinople]

The sad thing is the people who sincerely think the show improved these plots....Brienne goes from doing nearly nothing to....doing nothing.

 

That's not true.

 

Brienne waits very patiently for a candle to be lit.

It's the journey, not the destination.

In Season 4, Brienne and Podrick met-up with Hot Pie channeling Bob Marley ("No gravy, no pie").

[stillshimpy]

Oh poor Brienne's arc was reduced to the most biggest pile of shit outside of a stable.  

 

Okay, so I finished Jaime and Cersei's most recent chapters.  Jaime's was great.  It really shows him coming into his own and having to think with his head.  Although poor Edmure, I felt for him throughout and Jaime having the singer play Rains of Castamere was a bit much.   Almost his entire family is dead, he's lost everything, you've probably defeated the poor bastard enough already. 

 

Fun to see Jaime turn into a strategist and man alive, do I ever want some Freys to die-motherfucker-die.  

 

Cersie's was almost painfully boring.  I keep waiting for this plot to swerve away from the recreation of Anne Boleyn's framing and I trust it's about to.  Cersei and Qyburn's Ramsay act was again, just boring.   Mark Smeaton was horribly tortured also, including (according to some sources) having his eyes put out.   Whereas there wasn't any insane queen on the scene dictating all of that, it was too entirely lifted from actual history to be of any interest.  That Loras was briefly accused also was another point and Kettleback commenting about her little neck.  Jeez, man. 

 

I hope it soon heads off in an entirely different direction and sending Kettleback off to confess hopefully will achieve exactly that, as presumably Lancel has spilled his "I screwed Cersei and killed the King" beans to Big Bird anyway.  

 

Honestly, having studied that period in history, it wasn't something I was anxious to revisit.  Anne Boleyn ended up married to one King because his first Queen hadn't given him the legitimate male heir he wanted.  It's actually not true that Catherine of Aragon never had any male children aside from stillbirths, she had at least one little boy who lived to almost two.  She was cruelly cast aside for a younger woman with a working womb.  Mind you, since I don't believe in hellfire and damnation, I've always found poor pitiable Catherine of Aragon tragic, but if she'd agreed to be set aside she'd have had a nicer end to her live (as the one wife with the wisdom to say "Yup, okey dokey.  Annul the hell out of this, I'm agreeable" (or at least her advisors knew enough to extract her in a manner that gave her a generous allowance and decent place to live).  

 

Then Anne's lady parts failed Henry (to his mind ) and ....you know....the reason it bugs the living stuffing out of me, is it is just like a condensed and concentrated misogyny in action anyway.  Real history and real life provides enough of that, I don't really need it in muddying up my fiction.  Particularly when it is rather unimaginatively (thus far) adapted from the real thing. 

 

I did at least wonder if Margaery was meant to actually be doing the deed with someone, since the whole "moon tea" business made that possible, if not probable. 

 

Okay, Arianne's chapter is up next :0)

Edited December 7, 2015 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so that made up for every word of Cersei's dull exploration of palace intrigue in trying to get her daugher-in-law done in and hideously maiming lute players in the process.  What does George R. R. Martin have against musicians, I wonder?  They all meet hideous ends or are terrible human beings.  This is the second one that has been whittled in the process of being made to lie to suit someone's plan. 

 

So I like Prince Doran in the show and so far I like him best of any of the lead male characters.  He's smart, he's patient and he's actually good at all of this.  If he'd filled Arianne in on his plans it might have saved him a lot of grief, but he's also right, she wouldn't have had the sense to keep the secret, because she wouldn't understand the stakes.  He also couldn't really be seen to be instructing her too often either.  

 

Smart move on presenting her with every doddering fool on the edge of his dotage as a possible match. 

 

She was engaged to Viserys (dodged a bullet there) and now Quentyn is off to try and propose to Daenerys?  That is entirely wonderful.  Poor Doran, surrounded by hot-heads and only unable to trust his daughter with everything because she wouldn't think to distrust enough people and someone always tells.  

 

The Dorne material has proved fascinating and is some of my favorite stuff from this book.  

[Andeleisha]

Yay, shimpy! I am a huge Tudor buff, and love Anne Boleyn in particular. (Totally OT, but did you see this hysterical article from The Toast that made basically exactly the same point you did about Catherine of Aragon? The title alone makes me laugh: http://the-toast.net/2015/11/11/unsolicited-advice-for-the-six-wives-of-henry-viii-working-within-their-social-parameters-and-not-suggesting-they-just-invent-feminism-because-thats-anachronistic/)

 

Margaery is largely an opaque character to us at this point in the books, so we don't really know what she's up to. She puts a lot of work into her image as an innocent, compassionate young woman, and she is undoubtably trying to become closer to Tommen. To what end? We don't really know. Her behavior is certainly calculated, but we don't ever see her acting maliciously. She could be no more than she appears, in which case wanting your husband to like you and to be popular with the city is totally normal behavior. Cersei is the one who is convinced Marge wants to get rid of her. 

 

I'm inclined to give Marge the benefit of the doubt, because to me, one of the ironies of Cersei's arc is that she is accusing Marge of what she herself has been doing! Filling all the offices with her own family? Robert himself said in the first book he was surrounded by their stupid golden hair. Cheating on the King? The three treasons named Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen. Trying to get rid of the "other queen"? EXHIBIT A. Cersei is totally projecting her own despicable behavior onto Margaery, and assuming that everyone else is just as untrustworthy as she is is one of the things that leads to her downfall. 

 

Admins: is it considered a spoiler to reveal that we don't get a Marge POV chapter?

[Haleth]

And Doran isn't done yet with his plans.

[Mya Stone]

Yay, shimpy! I am a huge Tudor buff, and love Anne Boleyn in particular. (Totally OT, but did you see this hysterical article from The Toast that made basically exactly the same point you did about Catherine of Aragon? The title alone makes me laugh: http://the-toast.net/2015/11/11/unsolicited-advice-for-the-six-wives-of-henry-viii-working-within-their-social-parameters-and-not-suggesting-they-just-invent-feminism-because-thats-anachronistic/)

Margaery is largely an opaque character to us at this point in the books, so we don't really know what she's up to. She puts a lot of work into her image as an innocent, compassionate young woman, and she is undoubtably trying to become closer to Tommen. To what end? We don't really know. Her behavior is certainly calculated, but we don't ever see her acting maliciously. She could be no more than she appears, in which case wanting your husband to like you and to be popular with the city is totally normal behavior. Cersei is the one who is convinced Marge wants to get rid of her.

I'm inclined to give Marge the benefit of the doubt, because to me, one of the ironies of Cersei's arc is that she is accusing Marge of what she herself has been doing! Filling all the offices with her own family? Robert himself said in the first book he was surrounded by their stupid golden hair. Cheating on the King? The three treasons named Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen. Trying to get rid of the "other queen"? EXHIBIT A. Cersei is totally projecting her own despicable behavior onto Margaery, and assuming that everyone else is just as untrustworthy as she is is one of the things that leads to her downfall.

Admins: is it considered a spoiler to reveal that we don't get a Marge POV chapter?

I don't think so. I think it's obvious, at this point?

[Delta1212]

Okay, so that made up for every word of Cersei's dull exploration of palace intrigue in trying to get her daugher-in-law done in and hideously maiming lute players in the process. What does George R. R. Martin have against musicians, I wonder? They all meet hideous ends or are terrible human beings. This is the second one that has been whittled in the process of being made to lie to suit someone's plan.

So I like Prince Doran in the show and so far I like him best of any of the lead male characters. He's smart, he's patient and he's actually good at all of this. If he'd filled Arianne in on his plans it might have saved him a lot of grief, but he's also right, she wouldn't have had the sense to keep the secret, because she wouldn't understand the stakes. He also couldn't really be seen to be instructing her too often either.

Smart move on presenting her with every doddering fool on the edge of his dotage as a possible match.

She was engaged to Viserys (dodged a bullet there) and now Quentyn is off to try and propose to Daenerys? That is entirely wonderful. Poor Doran, surrounded by hot-heads and only unable to trust his daughter with everything because she wouldn't think to distrust enough people and someone always tells.

The Dorne material has proved fascinating and is some of my favorite stuff from this book.

"Fire and Blood" completely saved Dorne for me. Initially, I was rather disinterested in the whole diversion to the south, but that got me to do a 180. I am far more interested in Dorne these days than when I did my first read, and Doran is up among some of my favorite characters.

When I first heard they were going to change some things about the Dorne storyline and some of the changes started to leak, I was cautiously optimistic that they were going to find a way to streamline the story and make it a little more immediately relevant to the rest of the goings on in Westeros.

And, well... yeah...

[stillshimpy]

otally OT, but did you see this hysterical article from The Toast that made basically exactly the same point you did about Catherine of Aragon? The title alone makes me laugh:

 

That was the stuff of greatness :-)  Thank you for sharing it.  Catherine of Aragon: Given a drafty home, with inadequate staff in the hopes that she would literally catch her death. 

 

Anne of Cleves: Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, Tudor Style and she never had to concern herself ever again with what anyone thought of her breasts, armpits or fertility.  

 

Go Cleves, or go home. 

 

So as per usual, poor Mya just put up with a solid twenty minutes of my plaintively bleating via chat that I didn't understand how or why the show took such deftly rendered material in Dorne.  Easily the most interesting plot in the book thus far.  Someone who understands that revenge is dish best served cold.  Who always remembered and had a plan as he sat around in agony and still didn't stray from it when the shit hit the fan.  He just changed courses.  

 

Contrast that to

Doctor Bashir looking dyspeptic a great deal and being outwitted by a scowling, sneering over-acting paramour and her team of Psychosis Barbies and her lip gloss of doom. Done in by a Lip Smacker.  Oh the humanity.

 

This has not been my favorite book, but that was my favorite chapter out of any of them.  It was just so smart. 

 

 

 

"Fire and Blood" completely saved Dorne for me.

 

By the way?  Sooooooooo frustrating to find out the line that Dany stomps around yelling so much "Take what is mine, with Fire and Blood and..." projecting to the back rows, apparently?  Was actually the plan of some long suffering, incredibly patient strategy master. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Delta1212]

I don't think so. I think it's obvious, at this point?

Is that ever really obvious, though? I mean, at this point in the story, I thought it was fairly obvious that we

weren't going to get a Barristan POV

, for example.

[Mya Stone]

Is that ever really obvious, though? I mean, at this point in the story, I thought it was fairly obvious that we

weren't going to get a Barristan POV

, for example.

True. I just meant that it wasn't going to happen in THIS book. I'm iPad typing so I tend to be more short. Sorry for the confusion!

[ImpinAintEasy]

'Fire and Blood' are the Targaryen house words, Shimpy.

My quick ranking of house words:

1. Ours Is The Fury - Baratheon

2. Winter Is Coming - Stark

3. Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken - Martell

4. Fire And Blood - Targaryen

5. We Do Not Sow - Greyjoy

6. Family,Duty,Honor - Tully

7. Growing Strong - Tyrell

8. As High As Honor - Arryn

[bobbybuilderton]

I've pictured the Fire and Blood scene in my head a million times and I am glad I didn't watch season 5 to avoid the disappointment of it not being in. I kinda noped out of that one when I heard about Jaime's lil detour. I'm not even a huge Arianne fan and I don't get why they thought what they did would be more interesting than the source material. I don't think I understand why they thought anything they did would be more interesting, really. It's like they thought the issue with the plots from books 4 and 5 were that the stuff that happened was dull and stupid, rather than the issue being that they needed to be edited more. I always thought that if they'd done books four and five in about a season and a half, they could have had a decently paced story that would have been worthy of the awards they recently won (which were probably for previous seasons, not season 5). Their insistence on having a big "episode 9" event also hurts their pacing and I wish they'd get over that. Idk I always get into hating on the show so I'll just say that people were very excited for the Martells, and were universally disappointed. Also, what are your thoughts on how Ellaria did not feature in the Dorne plot? She was a pretty central character in the show's version. Because they cut Arianne, they couldn't make it about her birthright. So they decided to give talented(so I'm told) actresses opportunities to over act and do poorly choreographed fight scenes and make it about REVEEEEEEEEEENNNNGGEEEEEE. 

 

Ahh I'm having flashbacks to the dread that was sinking in to people when they were realizing Arianne wasn't going to be in  and how they wondered how you could do Dorne without one of its main characters. It made me smile because by that time I'd given up on the show. OH and did you hear about how that prison scene with Bronn got leaked and people just COULD NOT believe it could possibly be real? That was a fun time too. 

[Alayne Stone]

Now you understand why we were so frustrated with the Dorne plot. I waited around forever during the season 5 finale to hear Doran give the "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood speech." But I should have learned my lesson with Lady Stoneheart. I'll be waiting for both even on my death bed.

 

Also, done in by lipstick or Dorne in by lipstick? Har har. I need sleep. Not funny at all.

 

That article about Henry's six queens was hilarious though! I got a kick out of that read and Anne Boelyn's "probably introduced oral sex to England" snipe too. But yes, go Cleves or go home indeed.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Alayne Stone

[Ashara Payne]

I'm sure there are dozens of reasons that Season 5 deviated so strongly from the books, but it seems to me that there is too much need/desire to keep the number of new actors low and to give established actors (Sophie T) something to do as much as it is to do with time/budget constraints re visual effects/locations etc. I guess most actors are in a union (equity in the UK) and have a minimum wage.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I thought Trystane was going to replace Quentyn in the show, and they would play up his love for Myrcella, only for Doran to reveal that he was meant for Dany.

Some even believed that he would replace "Aegon".

Boy were we wrong. I don't know how Dorne can be salvaged in the show, and frankly, I wouldn't mind if they just forgot about them. I know since they announced there would be 8 seasons that there appears to be a fair amount of book material that they are circling back to include, but Dorne is pretty much irreparably damaged.

[Terra Nova]

Jaime chapter: I like how everything in the council goes south pretty fast and Jaime just thinks "my father's council never went this way :O" (but again, Tywin had his sockpuppet brother to help him in the small show everytime)

Cersei chapter: you have now read her comment about Melara kicking and screaming in the well... draw your conclusions.

Arianne chapter: I'm not sure that Arianne wouldn't have been able to keep the secret: in her first POV chapter we saw how each one of her friends only knew a small part of the plan. That's also why I don't believe any of them was the bean-spiller. The failures between Doran and Arianne come from their inability to communicate with and trust each other, which is pretty tragic in itself, and even though Arianne may benefit from being more mistrustful, I don't consider her the vapid girl whose father knows best.
Which is exactly what the show went for: fickle, emotional and promiscuous women cause trouble, reasonable men try to fix everything.

 

ETA: Also, thinking about it, Doran still wronged Arianne, since he was exchanging her right to be a Ruler in Dorne (which is also much more independent than any other of the Seven Kingdoms) with a life of being the pretty Queen with no real power (and the Queen of a Targaryen, isn't that creeptastic?). All her 'political' career would have been reduced to her son being possibly one day the King. So yes, now she will rule Dorne, but in the meantime all her education revolved around 'feasts and frolickings', which again is perfect for a Queen, but really crappy for a ruler. Nice!

 

Also (x2), some pages ago I said that I would have liked Shimpy to give some final thoughts about Dorne's arc with a focus on his 'adaptation', but I guess she already answered to that ;-).

I think Brienne's arc has been wronged in the same way, but for some reason the treatment of Dorne (which is not even particularly interesting to me!) really left me enraged: two children of Doran vanished into thin air, one of them being the protagonist of the arc and the heir of the Princedom, the third one aged up to be an obnoxious teen, the Sand Snakes being the clichè of the exotic lusty ('Slut!') brown woman, Ellaria being brought to prominence just because! I've always mantained they could have had Arianne accompany Oberyn to King's Landing and have her story continue like in the books, if the number of actors really bothers them. But of course, no brothel sex with the niece (though the niece at least in the book doesn't seem so reluctant at the prospect XD)!

Edited December 8, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Delta1212]

Jaime chapter: I like how everything in the council goes south pretty fast and Jaime just thinks "my father's council never went this way :O" (but again, Tywin had his sockpuppet brother to help him in the small show everytime)

Cersei chapter: you have now read her comment about Melara kicking and screaming in the well... draw your conclusions.

Arianne chapter: I'm not sure that Arianne wouldn't have been able to keep the secret: in her first POV chapter we saw how each one of her friends only knew a small part of the plan. That's also why I don't believe any of them was the bean-spiller. The failures between Doran and Arianne come from their inability to communicate with and trust each other, which is pretty tragic in itself, and even though Arianne may benefit from being more mistrustful, I don't consider her the vapid girl whose father knows best.

Which is exactly what the show went for: fickle, emotional and promiscuous women cause trouble, reasonable men try to fix everything.

ETA: Also, thinking about it, Doran still wronged Arianne, since he was exchanging her right to be a Ruler in Dorne (which is also much more independent than any other of the Seven Kingdoms) with a life of being the pretty Queen with no real power (and the Queen of a Targaryen, isn't that creeptastic?). All her 'political' career would have been reduced to her son being possibly one day the King. So yes, now she will rule Dorne, but in the meantime all her education revolved around 'feasts and frolickings', which again is perfect for a Queen, but really crappy for a ruler. Nice!

Also (x2), some pages ago I said that I would have liked Shimpy to give some final thoughts about Dorne's arc with a focus on his 'adaptation', but I guess she already answered to that ;-).

I think Brienne's arc has been wronged in the same way, but for some reason the treatment of Dorne (which is not even particularly interesting to me!) really left me enraged: two children of Doran vanished into thin air, one of them being the protagonist of the arc and the heir of the Princedom, the third one aged up to be an obnoxious teen, the Sand Snakes being the clichè of the exotic lusty ('Slut!') brown woman, Ellaria being brought to prominence just because! I've always mantained they could have had Arianne accompany Oberyn to King's Landing and have her story continue like in the books, if the number of actors really bothers them. But of course, no brothel sex with the niece (though the niece at least in the book doesn't seem so reluctant at the prospect XD)!

I think it's because Brienne in the books had a story that probably wouldn't have played out very well onscreen and wasn't particularly consequential to the overall plot, and it got replaced by a different storyline that didn't play out particularly well and wasn't very consequential to the overall plot.

Dorne, on the other hand, had a plot line that maybe could have used a bit of tweaking (although in retrospect it's biggest problem may simply have been that the bulk of the introduction to Dorne happened in a chunk of the novel that was largely bereft of check-ins on the previously established characters and plot lines "Ok, Dorne. Yes, that's nice. Why are we back here again instead of finding out what's going on with someone I already care about?" which would have been fixed by the television format not dropping every other plotline from the early episodes anyway), but otherwise had a story that is interesting and seems to be set up to make big waves in the coming books... And the show replaced it with a plot that's kind of stupid and makes most of the characters much less interesting.

Brienne and Pod are at least still doing what Brienne and Pod generally do, more or less, and there's nothing stopping them from continuing on with whatever the book has in store despite their little detour doing mostly nothing, whereas Dorne kind of got turned on its head in a big way. Most of the changes by the showrunners, whether you like them or not, are done in ways that allow them to circle the characters back around to wherever they need to be later. Sometimes it feels a little contrived and out of step with what came before on the show, but they can do it.

I think Dorne is the first plot so far where, short of pretending season 5 didn't happen and completely resetting the whole region, there's no way to bring the characters back in line with their book story.

I think, given some other changes, there's a reason they didn't bother to leave that option open to themselves (although not knowing how either the books or show ends, I don't know whether it's a good reason or not), but I do believe that's why Dorne probably rankles more than Brienne, where at least her story this season doesn't impede her future progress as a character in any appreciable way.

[Terra Nova]

I think you're right, Delta1212, even though I deeply resent the loss of all thematical integrity in Brienne's arc, not to speak about her general bruteness in the show.

Though it also annoyed me to no end the string of near-miss or botched encounters she had with Arya and Sansa, and how utterly devoid of consequences they resulted.

On the other hand, seeing how the time constraints have grown to be a beloved excuse for justifying shortcuts and changes in the series, I wonder whether it would have been preferable to simply undercut Brienne's screentime for the past season, instead of inventing the plot-holes-ridden arc that we got in the end. I'm fine with excising Bran for a whole season, especially when they rushed through its material to the point it was (basically) completely spent at the end of Season 3 already. Heck, I would have liked Yarasha to disappear too, instead of the 'who let the dogs out' sketch.

 

A reduction in screentime for Brienne would have also allowed more time for fleshing out Dorne or whatever other plot they felt required more time (which again, it's an excuse I don't buy, since the running time of last season's episodes was considerably shorter than previous seasons). But they stripped Dorne of every resemblance  to the book plot, they removed major characters while some of those who survived the adaptation bear no resemblance to their books counterparts save for the name - to add insult to injury, I would say -; I can imagine why they did it

once they decided to cut Aegon, they felt Arianne had no purpose whatsoever - I strongly disagree with this wasy of thinking, by the way -, and they already messed up the timeline so that there was no way for Quentyn to reach Meereen before the botch at Daznak's pit

, but given what we got on screen, wouldn't the same result have been achieved completely off-camera? What did we got out of show!Dorne, apart for Myrcella croacking? Jaime got no development at all, and I would actually argue that his character regressed from Season 3 onwards, the new 'fabulous' character were universally laughed at, Alexander Siddig has been completelly wasted, the fighting coreography was abysmal, and so on and so on...

 

And it also irks me seeing how much of the cut material will be reworked for Season 6, after all the complains about it being sub-par and useless in the books. So Season 5 will end up being a filler season? Everything bar some 'minor' Sansa-rape and Dorne being ruined beyond repair will turn out to just be a detour with no consequences? And why I still wonder about how for the series to make sense, after reaching the point of wishing death upon my favorite characters, just for them to escape D&D's clutches!?

 

ETA: some of these problems also stem from the set-in-stone attitude D&D displayed until one year ago, that the show would have consisted of 7 seasons whaterver it took them, so they fell in a cutting frenzy resulting in the above mentioned characters being cut/killed off. Then someone at HBO forced them to reconsider and now they're aiming for 8 season, with HBO keeping the door open for up to ten seasons. This I think will cause a lot of pacing issues and some jarring transition to season 6, with all the plots coming back through the window after being tossed out through the door (as we say in my country ^^).

I think for example that one year ago they just gave up on the Ironborn and Balon for good, only for Euron the chubby-faced to come 'back' next season

Edited December 8, 2015 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

I think Dorne is the first plot so far where, short of pretending season 5 didn't happen and completely resetting the whole region, there's no way to bring the characters back in line with their book story.

 

Quentyn has been away at "college" in Old Town and Arianna has been away visiting her mother.  Or something like that.  Maybe not.  LOL

[WSmith84]

One big mistake the show made, imo, was the decision in S4 to leave the battle for the Wall until episode 9. This meant that they had to create filler for Sam, Jon and Stannis, when it would have been better to have the battle early and Jon's election afterwards. I mean, at the end of season 3, Stannis is all set to go to the Wall, the wildlings are ready to attack and Jon has returned to Castle Black in time to warn the NW. It made no sense to leave the battle until episode 9. It also would have helped with the pacing of S5, as covering some of the S5 material in S4 would have helped the pacing.

[Terra Nova]

Quentyn has been away at "college" in Old Town and Arianna has been away visiting her mother.

And it's hilarious than in Season 2 Tyrion specifically mentions that Trystane is the youngest of Doran's children - and it was 'youngest', not 'younger', so that meant at least other two siblings -.

[mac123x]

Doran handing Arianne the cyvasse dragon piece and saying "Fire and Blood" was a great way to end that chapter, but the part that really gave me a chill came earlier:

 

D:  "You were promised"

A: "To whom?"

D:  "Doesn't matter, he's dead"

A: "Well, that can happen with the old ones. What was it, a cold, a broken hip?"

D: "A pot of molten gold"

 

My eyes went wide when I read that.  Holy crap, this mildly entertaining diversion in Dorne actually ties back to a main character!  I loved it, and immediately went back to reread all the Dornish chapters.  Book 5 spoiler:

I liked the one follow-on chapter with Doran in ADWD.  Too bad all the Quentin travelogue chapters were crap.

[Lady S.]

And it's hilarious than in Season 2 Tyrion specifically mentions that Trystane is the youngest of Doran's children - and it was 'youngest', not 'younger', so that meant at least other two siblings -.

Actually Doran's name wasn't even mentioned until s4, Myrcella was just betrothed to "their youngest son", which I guess could be taken as the youngest male member of House Martell which tv-Trys is, but that's a stretch because no one would phrase it that way.

I did at least wonder if Margaery was meant to actually be doing the deed with someone, since the whole "moon tea" business made that possible, if not probable. 

 

Okay, Arianne's chapter is up next :0)

The moon tea evidence is hard to explain, but since the Tyrells have their own maesters and Marg is not a complete idiot, I find it hard to believe she'd go to obvious Lannister lackey Pycelle for her birth control needs.