S05.E10: Mother's Mercy

[Meredith Quill]

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Episode Synopsis:

 

Dany is surrounded by strangers. Cersei seeks forgiveness. Jon is challenged.

[90PercentGravity]

God Damn this show. Damn it all to hell.

[catrox14]

Well, shit. That just really sucks. Jon was the last character not named Tyrion Lannister I was rooting for. 

 

Ugh.

[stillshimpy]

I am goddamn crying over here.  

 

What the fuck, show? What the FUCK?  My husband walked out of the room saying, "That's it.  I'm out.  i'm just going to read the goddamn books." 

 

FUCK. FUCK. FUCK. 

 

Sansa jumped off a wall at Winterfell with Theon (thank you, Theon).  The show just fucked with me hardcore by pretending I'd find out something about Benjen and I believed them.  Stannis dead.  Jon is dead. Sansa is dead. 

 

And the fucking Mountain is alive? 

 

I am going to go get drunk.  God damn this shit. 

[90PercentGravity]

Ok, wait. I don't think Sansa is dead. They landed in softy melty snow... right? Right? RIGHT!?!

[loco]

First post here... just wanted to vent somewhere....

 

Hated seeing Jon go out like that.  If it had been in battle, I could've handled it ... maybe.  But that - called a "traitor" when he was the furthest thing from it??  Awful.

 

Every scene ended in a cliffhanger.  It was really all too much and felt very unsatisfying.  How can we wait a year to find out what happens??

 

I don't think it's certain that Sansa is dead, or maybe my GoT-addled brain just can't handle that possibility right now.  And Stannis?  What happened there?  I need to watch it again, but it looked like Brienne was stopped before she did it, or am I totally wrong?

 

And who was surrounding Dany? 

 

It was all too much to process.  And worst of all... the Boltons live on.

[stillshimpy]

Before everyone freaks out, loco is one of my friends.  I can vouch for her.   

 

And who was surrounding Dany?

 

I have no clue, loco.  Dothraki part deux?  

 

Fucking Ramsay is alive, people.  Jon Snow is dead.  Stannis is dead.   Sansa is dead and Ramsay, god damn Ramsay is alive.  

 

I had no idea I cared so much about Jon, but I lost it completely when he died.  All those theories about who his parents were and he's dead.  Lured to an ambush by the promise of finding out what happened to his uncle. 

 

But fucktard extraordinaire Ramsay is alive.  Oh gods. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

Shimpy, that is exactly how I felt when the credits rolled in, FUCK, FUCK, FUCK!!!

 

I did not see that coming. I knew they were going to betray Jon, but I thought, no, I was sure Jon was going to get out of it alive! I've been sure that Dany, Jon, Tyrion and Arya would always make it to the end, especially Jon and Dany. I was convinced they are the heroes of this story. But damn, Jon is gone???

 

You know what? I don't believe it. I still have faith Mel will finally do something useful and somehow bring him back. I mean, there must be some reason why she's still alive, no?? And why, of all places, she went back to the Wall? I know she was just running away, fucking coward!! I wished they had hanged her as well on a tree; but since she's still around, at least I hope it's for something USEFUL and resuscitate Jon!!

 

Ufff, that said, I was almost feeling sorry for Cersei...almost. For Stannis as well, but what can I say? They both deserved it. I'm glad for Stannis we saw justice right away for what he did to Shireen. I'm glad he's finally dead, though that took too long. I was sure he wasn't going to live pass season 3. Mel should have been killed with him, but then let's hope she'll be dead after she brings Jon back.

 

When Ellaria gave that loooong awkward kiss on the mouth to Myrcella, I knew she had poisoned her. It's a pity, I was getting fond of her. She seemed remarkably smart.

 

I suppose if the Dothraki see the dragon they'll be on Dany' s side. They're very superstitious, plus I'm sure they have heard the story about the Mother of Dragons. I'm sure she has just gotten herself another army, since the Unsullied have proven so useless.

[stillshimpy]

Loco, be so glad we aren't anywhere near each other right now.  I'd be pulling one of those sloppy cries.  

 

Good god, people.  They burned a child alive last week and this week?  Arya is blinded.  Sansa dead.  Jon....who by every narrative rule in the universe was supposed to be some kind of key...is dead.  They killed Jon Snow. 

 

Ramsay is alive and everyone else from Winterfell is either blind, dead, crippled or ...whatever Rickon is.  Fucking Ramsay is alive.  

 

I swear, I think I'm truly traumatized over here. 

[loco]

Before everyone freaks out, loco is one of my friends.  I can vouch for her.   

 

 

 

 

I have no clue, loco.  Dothraki part deux?  

 

 

Thanks for the vouch, shimpy!

 

I was thinking Dothraki, but that would mean Drogon flew her way back across the seas, which I guess is possible.  I guess my mind just wasn't thinking that way.  I figured he would just fly far enough to be out of danger.  But it looked like this was his home.

 

Forgot to even mention Varys. Hi Varys, good to see you!  You're looking very nostril.

[ChocButterfly]

Ok, wait. I don't think Sansa is dead. They landed in softy melty snow... right? Right? RIGHT!?! 

I'll have to watch that scene again, because I was sure they were basically comiting suicide, going all Thelma and Louise, but my parents say they saw water on the other side. I didn't see no water, but somehow I'm sure Sansa isn't dead. Maybe she landed on Theon.

 I had no idea I cared so much about Jon, but I lost it completely when he died.  All those theories about who his parents were and he's dead.  Lured to an ambush by the promise of finding out what happened to his uncle .

NO!! He's not gone!!!! He'll be brought back by some blood magic.  He's not gone!!! Maybe I'm just in denial, but I really don't believe that's it for him.

 

Edited to add: Welcome, loco!! Sorry for being rude and not greet you before, but I guess we're all kind of in shock right now to even notice new posters.

Edited June 15, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[janjan]

Well wasn't that a bitch. Even the return of Varys can't redeem that shitstorm. I've been confidently predicting for five years that Jon  Snow would end up on the Iron Throne. Maybe Thoros of Mir will come back and revive him. Or else maybe not.

 

- How did Drogon get so beat up? He just had a couple spears and a hole in his wing when he took off.

- How did Cersei get so bloodied -- we didn't see anyone actually hit or cut her, did we? (I'm not gonna rewatch to find out.)

- How did Cersei get so cleaned up the minute she set foot in the Red Keep?

- I kinda think Brienne killed Stannis and Sansa survived, but both were off-screen if they did happen. I guess that was meant as a come-back-next-year inducement.

- Where did the Boltons get such a big honking army?

- Nice body-double action with Lena-- I kept watching to see the full frontal and the face in the same shot. Didn't see it.

- So Trant is a peda-beater instead of a pedo-phile? OK, but Arya's over-the-top revenge cost her my sympathy. And the many-face faceless stuff is getting too complicated to be interesting.

- What's with Ellaria? How does killing Myrcella avenge Oberyn? But at least now we see why we had to sit through so much Bronn + Snakes stuff in the dungeon. All to introduce the Long Farewell. Unless Doran knows about that poison, he will no doubt blame Jaime, though it would be hard to think why he would kill Myrcella.

[stillshimpy]

I didn't see no water, but somehow I'm sure Sansa isn't dead. Maybe she landed on Theon.

 

 

Heh, that made me laugh, thank you, Choc.  It was a weak and watery laugh, but it was a laugh nonetheless.  Guys, in my avatar is my dog Puddles.  My other dog is a massive creature named Oscar.  After the show had ended...and my husband had stormed off to his office, presumably to order the books so he could burn those fucking things I went over to my 90 pound dog, hugged him around the neck and cried all over him and his dog pillow.  

 

 I have not been this upset in the history of the show.  I think because there's now officially no one left. 

 

ETA: Yeah, i was glad to see Varys and then they stabbed the Jesus out of Jon and I was somewhat less enthused by that time. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

Oh, well, at least you had a bit if a chuckle, Shimpy. But I'm not sad, you know why? I know he ain't dead. Well, maybe he is dead, but he'll be back! Yo, people, don't worry, we'll see Jon back next season, seriously, he and Dany will fight the WW together at the end of this shit!!!

 

Sansa is not dead either, although I could see her dying, it is possible. I'm glad they jumped, whether they're dead or alive, they made the right choice rather than staying in that hellhole. Now, if they manage to survive and somehow get caught and torture again by Ramsey next season, I'm going to do what Shimpy's husband did and buy all the books to burn them.

 

Yo, all, chill, Jon ain't dead, it's just temporary! Seriously, I don't know if I can take a year without knowing. I'm either going to continue in denial, or go crazy, or finally brake my Unsullied status of 5 years and ask a Bookwalker!!! Let's see how long I can take this agony.

[loco]

Thanks for the welcome, ChocButterfly!  Totally agree that Sansa/Theon made the right choice, regardless of how it ends. 

 

Shimpy, I can sympathise, but I think I was all cried out after last week.  The tears just wouldn't come.  I was just in a state of shock at what I'd just watched, not just the stuff with Jon, but the whole thing.  I really need time to process this.  I will never sleep tonight!  I'm hoping Jon's not really dead, but I'm afraid he is.

 

Still not convinced Stannis is gone.

[Pallas]

shimpy, hugs from me and my creatures to you and Oscar.  I just came upstairs to say what Choc did, bless her: Melisandre will revive Jon.  She has Davos to tell her she must; she had the right vision of a kingly figure but the wrong king; there is no one else to gather the forces of the North to withstand the White Walkers.  I spent an hour wondering if the story were turning away from its two most obvious heroes -- Dany and Jon -- to stand up for broken things -- Tyrion and Sam -- and have the world come to stand behind them.  

 

But I don't think so. 

[DirewolfPup]

Watching the show, I never got the impression that Sansa and Theon committed suicide. Guys.... what in the ever loving crap?!? Am I in denial?

It's Season 3, episode 9 again. I'm not crying, but goodness gracious am I pissed!

Cersei's feet were bloody because, I presume, the people covered her walkway with glass and sharp things. Then again, I thought Sansa and Theon were jumping to safety, so I'm clearly an idiot :(

[ChocButterfly]

Cersei's feet were bloody because, I presume, the people covered her walkway with glass and sharp things. Then again, I thought Sansa and Theon were jumping to safety, so I'm clearly an idiot :(

 

No, you're not, DireWolf! My parents say they jumped to water. I just saw snow, but somehow I'm also convinced Sansa is alive now.

I thought Cersei's feet were bloody because she was walking on stone and rough roads barefoot and she had never walked barefoot before. I know it seems exaggerated, but you know these royals, they're made of glass,

 

I also believe Arya is only temporarily blind as a punishment. Or maybe she'll stay blind forever but develop an awesome 6th sense that people won't even notice she's blind.

 

But hey, Stannis is dead and should stay dead. 

 

And Jon will be back. I'll repeat it over and over until it's true. (Though, I want to clarify that when I say "back" I don't mean as in zombie form. Just in case the show is even thinking of something that stupid.)

[stillshimpy]

Watching the show, I never got the impression that Sansa and Theon committed suicide. Guys.... what in the ever loving crap?!? Am I in denial?

 

Uh....?  No?  Absolutely not?  Hermione Granger jumped the fuck out of a tower, wand at the ready and yelled, "Wingardium Leviosa" and they all turned into chocolate frogs?  

 

Guys, they jumped off a damned building together.  I get that there was snow, but ....and maybe it's because I spent a really long time in Colorado...but you guys do know that stuff needs to be wicked ass levels of deep to absorb people falling?  Like, six feet of snow is not going to help in the real world? 

[Pallas]

I also think Sansa and Theon survived, Direwolf.  At least Sansa.  I too thought they were taking their only chance to escape, and it never occurred to me they were leaping to their deaths.  Was it the music cues?  Not doleful enough?  I'll have to rewatch, for that and for Stannis.  

 

The scene with Arya and Ja'qen was riveting, then astounding.  What I thought was that he has turned her faceless: that was the death. She had his steelie-marble eyes. 

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so maybe they didn't die, because the show isn't likely to take the "they'd need about thirty feet of snow to not at least break weight bearing limbs"....but Ramsay lived, guys so.... ?  Why exactly are you hoping that they lived?  They knew he was coming back, held hands and jumped off a big ass wall and you hope they live because.....?  

 

I'm not trying to be an ass, but they just killed Miranda so how well is that likely to go for either or them?  

 

I can't even believe I yelped "No!!" when not!Jaqen downed poison....and then he blinded Arya.  

I feel so duped.  

[gingerella]

So...yeah...that happened.  Oy vey. Motherfucking show. Fuck you show. Fuck.You.

 

Melisandre will revive Jon.  She has Davos to tell her she must; she had the right vision of a kingly figure but the wrong king

This times a million! I thought the same thing Pallas. Mel's King picker was off. Off by miles. She picked the wrong horse and finally realized it and ran away, like a common thief. What a piece of shit she is. But Davos is still there at CB, and I also believe that next season we will see her heal Jon, or bring him back from the dead. It might have consequences in how he is when he's brought back from the brink, but I think that is the entire purpose of Mel and Davos being at CB right at this moment. It's the ONLY thing that makes any sense. Well, that and Davos becoming a NW leader...maybe.

 

I also didn't get that Sansa was jumping to her death, but that they figured, "...it's worth a shot, and if we die it's better than living in this hell hole of Boltonworld..."  But yeah, I don't think the will die. It is indeed a hellishly long jump but I think they will be rescued by Northerners and hidden - because you know Ramsey will go looking for them to flay.  Maybe only Sansa survives, and Theon dies trying to save her?  Anyway, she is also not dead. Not Dead. NOT.DEAD.

 

Arya is not permanently blind, she is just being punished for going off script with the Many Faced God training program. She will regain her sight when she redeems herself.

 

So to recap: Arya will regain her sight, and Jon and Sansa are not actually dead.   And if they are - I'm not sure what's left will be enough to keep my interest another season. Maybe this is a case of showrunners ruining a good book series?  All I know is, this show has really beaten me down.

[Bad Example]

But fucktard extraordinaire Ramsay is alive.  Oh gods. 

 

In the midst of all of my HOLY CRAP I take a moment to giggle at your turn of phrase.  Kudos.

 

I did not see that coming. I knew they were going to betray Jon, but I thought, no, I was sure Jon was going to get out of it alive! I've been sure that Dany, Jon, Tyrion and Arya would always make it to the end, especially Jon and Dany. I was convinced they are the heroes of this story. But damn, Jon is gone???

 

You know what? I don't believe it. I still have faith Mel will finally do something useful and somehow bring him back. I mean, there must be some reason why she's still alive, no?? And why, of all places, she went back to the Wall? I know she was just running away, fucking coward!! I wished they had hanged her as well on a tree; but since she's still around, at least I hope it's for something USEFUL and resuscitate Jon!!

 

When Ellaria gave that loooong awkward kiss on the mouth to Myrcella, I knew she had poisoned her. It's a pity, I was getting fond of her. She seemed remarkably smart.

 

I suppose if the Dothraki see the dragon they'll be on Dany' s side. They're very superstitious, plus I'm sure they have heard the story about the Mother of Dragons. I'm sure she has just gotten herself another army, since the Unsullied have proven so useless.

 

I pretty much just have to cosign this.  I was so sure about those people... but then again, I was pretty sure Ned was the moral center and would be what kept this all together. So there's that.  

 

As for the lipstick, yep, it was immediately obvious she was going all River Song.

 

I figure the Dothraki were brought there by the sight of the dragon.  I wonder if there was something in the music or other cues, because as she was walking, even before the guys started showing up, I was thinking "Khaleesi".  

- How did Drogon get so beat up? He just had a couple spears and a hole in his wing when he took off.

- How did Cersei get so bloodied -- we didn't see anyone actually hit or cut her, did we? (I'm not gonna rewatch to find out.)

- How did Cersei get so cleaned up the minute she set foot in the Red Keep?

- I kinda think Brienne killed Stannis and Sansa survived, but both were off-screen if they did happen. I guess that was meant as a come-back-next-year inducement.

- Where did the Boltons get such a big honking army?

- Nice body-double action with Lena-- I kept watching to see the full frontal and the face in the same shot. Didn't see it.

- So Trant is a peda-beater instead of a pedo-phile? OK, but Arya's over-the-top revenge cost her my sympathy. And the many-face faceless stuff is getting too complicated to be interesting.

- What's with Ellaria? How does killing Myrcella avenge Oberyn? But at least now we see why we had to sit through so much Bronn + Snakes stuff in the dungeon. All to introduce the Long Farewell. Unless Doran knows about that poison, he will no doubt blame Jaime, though it would be hard to think why he would kill Myrcella.

 

I think Drogon was mostly exhausted.  I don't know that he was any more beat up than before.  

 

I thought the Cersei scene went on way too long... but she looks so much better with that short hair.  (Which means I have obviously missed the point of all of her humiliation.)

 

I agree that Brienne killed Stannis.  It almost made up for the way the show completely broke my heart when Brienne didn't see Sansa's light.

 

I feel like it could go either way with Sansa... it's not like this show is coy about showing dead bodies lying on the ground.  I think I mostly want her to be alive for Brienne.  Or maybe so she could have a little chat with her sister someday and ask her to add the names "Ramsay" and even "Littlefinger" to her list.  After all, there's an open spot now.

 

As for Ellaria, I think she's just a spiteful bitch.  

[Pallas]

About the fall: Bran survived being pushed backwards from what looked to be a greater height.  The music seemed to be cuing risk and resolve, rather than pathos and resignation.  The pursuit will be awful and involve dogs; Theon the hunter (more than Sansa) may know boltholes or possible escape routes.  I doubt he'll survive but Sansa might.  

 

Rewatched and made more sense of the Arya/Ja'qen scene.  "He was no one.  As A Girl should have been before she took a face from the wall...A Girl is Someone. To Someone, a face is poison."   Arya's taking the face before she was "Ready" may have been the cause of her blindness, rather than a crime for which she was punished.  

 

Melisandre was taken aback that Thoros could resurrect through the Lord of Light, where she could not.  Davos will need to put his hatred aside -- or rather, use it -- to persuade her to make the attempt.

[WhiteStumbler]

I think Sansa and (less useless now) Reek survive. They fall into snow (not water) and, while shimpy is right that you need a lot of snow to survive , it might have been in the lee of the castle, and the wind can deposit a lot of snow.

I'm grasping at straws, aren't I?

Is Sam the only one JS told about Hardhome? If yes, then he probably deserved to die. And why wasn't Ghost going nuts? Did they fucking kill Ghost?!?

Edited June 15, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[janjan]

I, too, thought the purpose of bringing Mel back to Castle Black was so she would be there to revive Jon, but didn't she seem surprised and curious when she learned that Thoros had revived Beric? Like she didn't know how to do it? Maybe she'll figure it out.

 

As far as Davos knows, Shireen and Selyse were killed in the battle. Is there anyone who can clue him in that it was all Mel's doing? Hope so.

 

How come Ollie said "For the Watch" when he stabbed Jon? I thought he was pissed because of his parents.

 

Those did look like Dothraki who surrounded Dany. Maybe they heard about the dragons and wanted their Khaleesi back. Drogon better perk up and look lively like he's a dragon survivor if that's what's needed to impress them.

 

What was the significance of Dany dropping her ring?

 

Who gives a crap about Mereen? Why should Tyrion and Varys even bother? Dany was just using it as a training exercise in how to be a queen. If the Mereenese all want to kill each other, great. Knock yourselves out, guys.

 

I never did get why the Harpies were killing random spectators, as well as aiming for Dany.

 

Why did Ellaria wait until she started nose-bleeding before she took the antidote? Methinks that was for the audience's benefit

[Pallas]

I don't think the horsemen were Dothraki.  As Ioco pointed out, that would mean the wounded Drogon would have flown Dany back across the sea. These horsemen seemed based more on Native American plains people, rather than desert or tundra nomads.  The horses -- paints, appaloosas, buckskins and not Arabians; the chants, the circling maneuvers, even the music which tried very hard, but not quite successfully, not to evoke old Westerns.  And Dany's reaction was not as quickened -- in either hope or fear -- as I think it would have been if she had recognized Dothraki.  

 

Drogon did have two good-sized wounds on either side of his back, near his wings.  His sick-kid petulance and unapologetic self-pity were beautifully rendered, along with the biting at his leg and laying of his head on his claw.   

[gingerella]

About the fall: Bran survived being pushed backwards from what looked to be a greater height.  The music seemed to be cuing risk and resolve, rather than pathos and resignation.  The pursuit will be awful and involve dogs; Theon the hunter (more than Sansa) may know boltholes or possible escape routes.  I doubt he'll survive but Sansa might.  

 

Rewatched and made more sense of the Arya/Ja'qen scene.  "He was no one.  As A Girl should have been before she took a face from the wall...A Girl is Someone. To Someone, a face is poison."   Arya's taking the face before she was "Ready" may have been the cause of her blindness, rather than a crime for which she was punished.  

 

Melisandre was taken aback that Thoros could resurrect through the Lord of Light, where she could not.  Davos will need to put his hatred aside -- or rather, use it -- to persuade her to make the attempt.

Pallas, I adore all of what you wrote above.  I believe too that Sansa and Theon will survive the fall, but as you said, they will need to flee swiftly. I wonder how long it'll take Ramsey to find Sansa missing, then Theon. I am guessing he will find his side piece dead first, then run to find the other two and send the search parties out for them ASAP. They don't have much time to get a move on. I could see Theon being unable to walk and Sansa trying to help him, but him sending her onward to safety while he gets killed by the very dogs he lived with.  Is it enough for redemption for Theon? Only - and that is a HUGE 'only' - if Sansa makes it to safety is never gets harmed by Bolton again.

 

As for your thoughts on Arya, yes, I can now see that too. She got away with murder, literally, but not so fast Miss House of the Dead trainee...I'm still not sure though, if she is paying for her sin or if it's a case of she is having a bad reaction because she wasn't ready. Either way seems like punishment for jumping the gun.

 

And while we're on the subject of Arya's killing...It was awful, grostesque and brutal, and I felt all the rage and frustration and grief that Arya Stark has carried with her since she say her beloved father beheaded. It felt like ALL her wrongs were focused into the murder of Meryn Trent and it was cathartic. Transformational in that she is now blind post-murderous haze, but I think it's temporary.

 

As for Jon et al, does Davos know about Thoros' ability to raise the dead? If so, great, he can push Mel to do the right thing and try it. But if not, how will he convince her to do it if he doesn't know it can be done?  Of course he could guess or suggest it based on his bearing witness to the birth of Smokebaby Baratheon...That said, what about Ghost?!?!  Where is he?! And why would he allow Jon to get caught alone like that? Ghost always seems to save Jon's ass at the last minute, or Sam's for that matter. So unless they've already locked him up or killed him, where is he?! Please, to the Seven, the Old and the New, the Lord of Light, the Great Stallion, and any other deities I'm missing, PLEASE DON'T LET GHOST BE DEAD!

 

Oh, and lastly, I do think that the horse riders were Dothraki, but I was confused because that terrain didn't seem like the arid terrain they usually roam in, or that we saw Dany and Khal roaming around in. I always thought the Dothrak area was a desert.  But yeah, remember when I said recently that Dany was the only female lead who seems to be having loving sex? That hoarde makes me fear for Dany's ladyparts big time! Drogon better wake the fuck up!

 

ETA:

Janjan, I think Ellaria drank the antidote after her nose began bleeding as a cheap plot point so we'd know it was her. It's the damn necklace all over again except the Estee Lauder version...

Edited June 15, 2015 by gingerella

[AngelKitty]

Jon's death was as big a shock to me as Ned's was.  I just can't believe it.  How can a Show keep killing off the core Heroes?

 

And I'm so disappointed Shireen's sacrifice meant nothing.  I really was expecting some big flaming magic was going to help Stannis pound the Boltons into the ground.

 

Sansa is not dead, Sansa is not dead...

 

"Don't let her kiss you on the lips!" I yelled at the stupid TV.  Alas, to no avail.

 

I'm not worried about Cersei, she's evil, so you know she's going to survive and get her revenge.

 

These horsemen seemed based more on Native American plains people

 

Yes, I thought "Oh, they're coming to America."

[stillshimpy]

Guys?  Did you miss the part where they jumped off the wall in order to die?  Theon didn't save Sansa's life.  Miranda was not going to kill her, she was going to disfigure her.  When Theon saved Sansa he wasn't saving her life, he was saving her from his life.  He's previously talked about what happens when you try to get away and unless they were dropping into a Stargate, if they live, all that happens is freaking Ramsay will capture them again. 

 

 

 

About the fall: Bran survived being pushed backwards from what looked to be a greater height.  The music seemed to be cuing risk and resolve, rather than pathos and resignation.  The pursuit will be awful and involve dogs; Theon the hunter (more than Sansa) may know boltholes or possible escape routes.  I doubt he'll survive but Sansa might.

 

Yes, and we watched Miranda crack like an egg from a fall from less of a distance in this episode.  But dudes, she might live, because it's this show, after all.  However, they were trying to die, not trying to get away.  That part was sort of obvious.  There are no horses, there is no hope that Stannis coming.  It's at least a little possible the Primarily Useless Brienne will see that bloody light in the tower and come to the rescue in time...but she's one person, agains't Ramsay and Bolton ....and all their men, who just killed all of Stannis's non-deserter men.  

 

So, there's all of that.  Sure, the show can suspend the laws of physics if it wants to.  It pretends that the giant wall wouldn't just act like a sail and catch the wind, after all. It's just, if that poor girl didn't die, she's in even more trouble and here's hoping Theon did finally complete the task of his incredibly prolonged character death.  

 

As for Jon being revived by Mel, that is also possible, but her magic just fantastically failed.   At least the show did figure out a way to force Jon to give up that stupid Oath, they had his brothers kill him.  They "Et tu Brute'd" him out of the club, even if Mel brings him back, so there is that.  But this show has thus far not hesitated to kill the living shit out of really high profile characters and I'm not sure how freaking Jon would feel about it.  

 

And uh....there's another resurrection that might be more likely....because as my husband said, "Oh my God, quick! Burn the body!!!"  Mel is not the only "rise up, dead thang" game in town and we haven't seen her bring anyone back to life.  Have we?  Am I forgetting that?  

 

I'm assuming Jon Snow will be be as Jon, the Zomboni Prince.  

 

But I was confused about one point (of many) ....Dany dropped her ring to the ground.  Was this so the New Horde in Town wouldn't realize she was wealthy?  It seems such an odd plot, but I guess she'll just woo them over to her side somehow and return to Mereen triumphant.   

Edited June 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[90PercentGravity]

I'm thinking Jesus Snow has to be the direction things are going. Otherwise, what's left? Dany and her dragons? Meh. 

 

The problem with this show/story is that it has to keep topping itself. How do you top the red wedding? This is how. This is the only way. I don't know how much story is left. How many times is it going to try to top itself? What can they do once all the likable people are gone, which like seriously just happened. Only Tyrion and Varys are left. What possible scenario could make their deaths worse than the red wedding and the Snow plow?

[DirewolfPup]

Dany could have dropped the ring as a signal to people looking for her, a la, Lord of the Rings with Merry dropping his elven cloak pin.

[stillshimpy]

By the way, the one good note in that story, as it pertained to the Sansa stuff....which got even more senseless when Miranda was threatening to mutilate essentially everything but her uterus, because once again, there are a metric fuckton of reasons that would fail as a plan to bring in those loyal to the Starks....nonetheless, the best part of that entire story was that where Yara tried to save Theon, because he was her brother, Sansa saved Theon by being part of his actual family.  Saving him didn't involve rescuing him, it just saved him from what he had become.   

 

I think that's part of why -- whereas I hate that story so much for all the freakshow stuff that is Ramsay -- the ending at least felt fitting.  The reason that Sansa Stark might have been enough of a figurehead to hold the North together was because she was a Stark, not just a Stark in name, but in the ways that made the North loyal to them.  She'd rather die as a Sansa Stark than live as whatever cowed creature Lady Ramsay Bolton would have to be.  

She said as much before she jumped off a damned wall.  I'm assuming to her death, vs. attempting to escape, because Sansa's already tried the breathtaking escape from her fate and gods help her, it landed her in an even worse spot.   

 

We were just talking about something else in PM about Cersei's almost amusingly literal Walk of Shame (although, i actually cried for her, Lena Headey did amazing work) ....where the hell was Tommen the Useless?  First of his Name and Missing His Spine?  Who lets that happen to their mother?? 

 

Can I just add that I wish Ellaria would drop the hell dead?  Yes, they paid off the "Bronn was poisoned" story, but Ellaria being hellbent on killing Myrcella was just a deranged plotline and now Doran will have her killed anyway.  She wanted to kill an innocent young woman and in the process, she put Justin (whatever his name is) in horrible danger, and broke his heart.  

 

What did Oberyn ever see in a person like Ellaria?  Although, poor Jaime "It's okay, I know you're my dad and I'm glad you're my....*shuffles off mortal coli while expelling her tainted blood....nice touch, show"* "  .   Also, Ellaria's a moron.  If she wanted to take a blood-for-blood revenge upon Cersei Lannister, she needed to kill Jaime, not poor freaking Myrcella.  Cersei was the reason Oberyn, the great love of Ellaria's wasted life.  To avenge that she needed to kill the great love of Cersei's life, not murder her child when she still has another.   

 

ETA:  Thanks, Dire.  That makes sense, I suppose.  I just thought maybe I'd missed something about "this is the ring of a Monarch" or her "this signifies that I am a Targaryen" or "The Dothraki Ring" or what about it.  Dropping her ring wasn't going to convince anyone she wasn't wealthy.  

Maybe Drogon just needed a Dragon TUMS because....boy did it look like he'd had a buffet.  

Edited June 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

Mountainstein lives!! He's going to keep his silence until all Cersei's enemies are dead? That sounds like an excuse to me Qyburn. You were behind schedule and didn't put vocal chords as a priority, right?  I hope Mountainstein doesn't kill off Tyrells. Cersei has bigger enemies. Send him to Dorne to kill Ellyria. Please, kill Ellyria and any person with "snake" in their title. Please and thank you.

 

Arya's blind. It makes narrative sense. She's been blinded by her lust for vengeance, quite literally. Here's hoping it's only temporary.

[ChocButterfly]

Oy, Shimpy, you're depressing me, trying to wake me from my state of denial. Sansa is not dead. Jon will be back and not as a zombie! Just repeat it enough times like me and you'll believe it as well. Hey, I'm not going to be worrying for an entire year!

 

About the fall: Bran survived being pushed backwards from what looked to be a greater height.

This. I never understood how Bran survived that fall, it was way too tall, he was pushed, he landed on his back and there was no snow for amortization. At least Sansa and Theon jumped expecting a landing (so they were prepared and physically positioned) and there was enough snow for some amortization. I don't know which poster mentioned it, but there was like 7 feet of snow piled up to the side of the castle, not just the snow on the floor. Maybe they rolled trough it. Miranda died instantly because she fell on pure concrete (or stone?), plus she was pushed, head first!

 

I don't think the horsemen were Dothraki.  As Ioco pointed out, that would mean the wounded Drogon would have flown Dany back across the sea. These horsemen seemed based more on Native American plains people, rather than desert or tundra nomads.  The horses -- paints, appaloosas, buckskins and not Arabians; the chants, the circling maneuvers, even the music which tried very hard, but not quite successfully, not to evoke old Westerns.  And Dany's reaction was not as quickened -- in either hope or fear -- as I think it would have been if she had recognized Dothraki.

I might have to watch that scene again, but I was sure they were Dothraki, I could see the same painting on their bodies, the same weapons Drogo used, and sort of the same hairdos. Plus the place where they were was similar to the place were Drogo died. I don't think Drogon would have had to fly that far away to take them to Dothraki territory. They're supposed to be also in Essos, no? The reason they took a ship to move was because it was faster and more convenient, not because you have to actually cross the ocean. It's like when they go to Dorne, they take a ship, why? Beats me, they're supposed to be in Westeros too, but I can never understand that weird map they show at the beginning, in it it looks more like Dorne is next to Mereen than Westeros.

 

Dany may have or not been afraid of them even if she knew they were Dothraki, because the Dothraki abandoned her and she knows they really don't like women at all. But it'd actually be way cooler if they just landed in another new continent!! She could actually make it to Westeros through the other way, like going full 360. Or maybe going North, crossing the Wall! yeah, I know this earth it's not entirely like our earth, but it's very similar, so if she's in the equivalent of America, there could be the equivalent of the Bering cross. But that would mean Drogon would have flown even farther away, which I don't think he was capable of being so wounded.

 

Dany could have dropped the ring as a signal to people looking for her, a la, Lord of the Rings with Merry dropping his elven cloak pin.

 

Thank you! I was wondering about the ring too, this makes sense. She's leaving clues behind. But that also means that she believes she's not that far away to be found, so maybe she did recognize the Dothraki. I'll watch the scene again. Let's see if they have the Dothraki hairdo or not.

 

Janjan, I think Ellaria drank the antidote after her nose began bleeding as a cheap plot point so we'd know it was her. It's the damn necklace all over again except the Estee Lauder version...

Well, not to defend a show, but in this case it wasn't as stupid as the necklace thing (which still doesn't make any sense!). This was kind of expected and logical (in crazy Ellaria's mind) for them to do. We knew she had something planned the minute she started making nice with Doran and Jaimie. We know they're the masters of poison and the kiss was weird as hell. Myrcella must have been a very polite girl to not pull away from that freaky kiss of crazy woman! Damn, I was starting to like her. Maybe they have to wait for the poison to start making effect to use the antidote.

[DirewolfPup]

So the Baratheon house only "has" Tommen left. Once he's gone, that's an entire house wiped from existence. Way to be, Stannis. Never trust a sexy witch.

[90PercentGravity]

You forgot about Gendry. And so has A Show.

[DirewolfPup]

Well, not to defend a show, but in this case it wasn't as stupid as the necklace thing (which still doesn't make any sense!). This was kind of expected and logical (in crazy Ellaria's mind) for them to do. We knew she had something planned the minute she started making nice with Doran and Jaimie. We know they're the masters of poison and the kiss was weird as hell. Myrcella must have been a very polite girl to not pull away from that freaky kiss of crazy woman! Damn, I was starting to like her. Maybe they have to wait for the poison to start making effect to use the antidote.

Yeah, the waiting until nosebleed was semi-far-fetched. They could have shown a shot of her wiping the lipstick away and taking the antidote without the nosebleed. They set up the story enough for us to figure that out without seeing the actual nose bleeding.

 

Still, Jamie's boat was still in the freaking harbor. Shouldn't he turn the boat around and do something to the people who poisoned her? Or, I don't know, complain to Doran who will know it's Ellyria and have her executed.

 

Speaking of how little time they were on that boat, what was Jamie's plan. Telling Mycella the truth could have gone very badly. What if she wasn't okay with it? Take the entire trip to convince her that you're not horrible? Not that it matters anymore.

You forgot about Gendry. And so has A Show.

You speak the truth.

[ChocButterfly]

Still, Jamie's boat was still in the freaking harbor. Shouldn't he turn the boat around and do something to the people who poisoned her? Or, I don't know, complain to Doran who will know it's Ellyria and have her executed.

 

Seriously, like everyone won't know it was Ellaria! Maybe it was a suicide kamikaze mission, but then again, this:

 

Also, Ellaria's a moron.  If she wanted to take a blood-for-blood revenge upon Cersei Lannister, she needed to kill Jaime, not poor freaking Myrcella.  Cersei was the reason Oberyn, the great love of Ellaria's wasted life.  To avenge that she needed to kill the great love of Cersei's life, not murder her child when she still has another.

Exactly! So Ellaria wanted to avenge Oberyn by killing the only person that didn't actually have anything to do with it? Plus, the Martells had this hatred for the Lannisters because of what happened during the war with the Mad King, wouldn't killing Jaimie make more sense, since he betrayed the Mad King and the Martells were on his side? Ellaria killed Myrcella, because she was the easiest target, and Ellaria is nothing but a fucking coward just like Melissandre!

[Pallas]

Ellaria killed Myrcella to do both Cersei and Jaime one better.  Many parents would rather lose a mate than any one of their children.  This left both parents alive to suffer the loss.  And, it prevented  Myrcella from marrying a Martell, the heir, and continuing the Lannister line.  And it continued Oberyn's mission of revenge for his sister, who saw Cersei's champion the Mountain kill her children.

[ChipBach]

Watching the show, I never got the impression that Sansa and Theon committed suicide. Guys.... what in the ever loving crap?!? Am I in denial?

Yeah, I am convinced they are not dead.  I believe they landed in a big snow bank or something they saw that we did not see.  (I don't recall getting a Sansa POV shot before the jump?  Maybe a rewatch)

 

I knew the long kiss goodbye was death.  If I were Jaime I would have kept the Sand Snakes far away from the girl.

 

I question whether Stannis is actually dead.  The cut-away was a bit suspicious to me.  Reminded me of the fake beheading of Buckbeak in Harry Potter 3.  I am glad they didn't cut away from from Miranda (Myranda?) fall.  I was very happy to watch her head pop on landing.  Liked to hear her scream too...

 

I guess Jon Snow is dead although I am willing to barter his death with the writers.  I am willing to accept any type of implausible red witch cure to keep the character - not a single snark posted here - I PROMISE!  Unless the actor simply wanted out, I don't get why we would want to destroy every character worth watching.  But what the hell, I know I'll be back...  bastards.

 

Seems Melisandre provided some foreshadowing when Jon wouldn't take he up on a little witch sex and when he rode off.  I am hoping that is why she decided to return there as opposed to going south for the long winter.  Gimme a little love SHOW...

Edited June 15, 2015 by ChipBach

[walnutqueen]

I was totally shocked by my tepid reaction to Jon Snow's demise.  I really believed I liked this character (MarySuenish aside), yet I wasn't at all moved by his assassination.  I have shrieked and wailed at some GoT deaths (Ned Stark, Oberyn); this one barely elicited a gasp.  Perhaps A Show has numbed this viewer?  Or perhaps this viewer just really likes Dany, Tyrion & Varys more than I realized.

[90PercentGravity]

BTW, where was ghost. He spread up foots Sam but not Jon?

[stillshimpy]

Well, I suspect he's dead, 90% and that for once in the history of the entire show, they decided to spare us that confirmation.   Either that, or he was sent off with Sam and Gilly, maybe? 

 

And that's it for me.   Mods, if you see me in here again, you should kick my butt :-)  

Edited June 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Mya Stone]

Hi guys...in light of these developments, I'd love if you could head over to this poll topic and cast your vote. 

Thanks! :) 

[Bcharmer]

During that final shot of Jon's face, I couldn't help but notice how beautiful he looked. His dark hair, and fair skin, and handsome face. Don't laugh, but Snow White came to mind, and not just because they both have "Snow" in their names. While I was enjoying that lovely thought, I immediately found myself fearing his eyes would suddenly pop open, revealing an icy blue color. Shiver. Then the next thought I had is that he would then be a Snow Wight.  A few seasons back, I learned that "wight" was the word for the re-animated corpses, which confused the heck out of me, because I thought it was just a nickname for White Walker (whites/wights... couldn't they have come up with a name that wasn't do darn close?).  Then, the only thing I could think of was "Quick! Burn the body! Burn the body!"  But then I found myself hoping and wondering if someone/something would bring him back to life ("Wait! Don't burn the body! Don't burn the body!). Aggghhh.  All this took place over a few nanoseconds.

[Shadowlass]

Guys, in my avatar is my dog Puddles. 

 

Is Puddles an Irish wolfhound? I adore Irish Wolfhounds, so sweet.

 

Watching the show, I never got the impression that Sansa and Theon committed suicide. Guys.... what in the ever loving crap?!? Am I in denial?

 

It didn't read as suicide to me--just that they thought the risk of possibly killing themselves was worth it for a chance of escaping.

 

I, too, thought the purpose of bringing Mel back to Castle Black was so she would be there to revive Jon, but didn't she seem surprised and curious when she learned that Thoros had revived Beric? Like she didn't know how to do it? Maybe she'll figure it out.

 

...

 

How come Ollie said "For the Watch" when he stabbed Jon? I thought he was pissed because of his parents.

 

Who gives a crap about Mereen? Why should Tyrion and Varys even bother? Dany was just using it as a training exercise in how to be a queen. If the Mereenese all want to kill each other, great. Knock yourselves out, guys.

 

I'm so dumb. I had some vague thought that some Wildlings might find and revive Jon Snow, but Melissandre makes much more sense.

 

I think Ollie was just saying "For the Watch" to maintain form rather than admit it was personal. I completely believe he was doing it for his parents.

 

And yeah, seriously. I'm sick of Mereen. Spring the other dragons and head out, Dany.

 

And I'm so disappointed Shireen's sacrifice meant nothing.  I really was expecting some big flaming magic was going to help Stannis pound the Boltons into the ground.

 

Even if Melissandre's plan had worked, Shireen's death would have meant nothing. Poor kid.

 

Yes, and we watched Miranda crack like an egg from a fall from less of a distance in this episode.  But dudes, she might live, because it's this show, after all.  However, they were trying to die, not trying to get away.  That part was sort of obvious.  There are no horses, there is no hope that Stannis coming.  It's at least a little possible the Primarily Useless Brienne will see that bloody light in the tower and come to the rescue in time...but she's one person, agains't Ramsay and Bolton ....and all their men, who just killed all of Stannis's non-deserter men.  

 

So, there's all of that.  Sure, the show can suspend the laws of physics if it wants to.  It pretends that the giant wall wouldn't just act like a sail and catch the wind, after all. It's just, if that poor girl didn't die, she's in even more trouble and here's hoping Theon did finally complete the task of his incredibly prolonged character death. 

 

On this show we've seen dragons, a woman survive a funeral pyre, smoke babies, and the dead reanimated, but a couple of people surviving a fall is too fantastical? About 50 percent of people would survive a 48-foot fall, no snow. If Sansa survives and Theon's dead, I'm good with that. I have to believe that Sansa isn't going to remain Ramsay's abuse doll forever, because that's tedious, and Mereen already has us covered for tedium.

 

Ellaria killed Myrcella to do both Cersei and Jaime one better.  Many parents would rather lose a mate than any one of their children.  This left both parents alive to suffer the loss.  And, it prevented  Myrcella from marrying a Martell, the heir, and continuing the Lannister line.  And it continued Oberyn's mission of revenge for his sister, who saw Cersei's champion the Mountain kill her children.

 

It's so disrespectful to Oberyn, though. This was a man who took pride in the fact that his people didn't hurt little girls. It's like instead of avenging him, Ellaria spit on his grave.

[gingerella]

I'm so dumb. I had some vague thought that some Wildlings might find and revive Jon Snow, but Melissandre makes much more sense.

 

I think Ollie was just saying "For the Watch" to maintain form rather than admit it was personal. I completely believe he was doing it for his parents.

Shadowlass, it's not dumb, but...where the fuck ARE the Wildlings in all of this? And where is Red Beard dude? I thought he and Jon were compatriots now. And WHY didn't Jon call an all-Nights Watch meeting and have him and some of the Wildlings tell what they saw at Hardhome? I mean come the fuck on people! WWs can raise the freakin dead so yeah, they have a huge army amassing. JesusHChrist on a cracker, how hard is it to debrief folks as soon as you come back from an encounter like that?!?

 

As for Olly, WHY didn't Jon call him up to his chambers and have a 1:1 heartfelt talk with the boy, reveal some of Jon' own vulnerability and personal history, and help Olly see why this alliance with the Wildlings is urgent and necessary and is in no way denigrating the memory of Mr. & Mrs. Olly?  Shit man, these people all need some good old fashioned interpersonal communication training! They need a Nights Watch Encounter, like Marriage Encounter for the NW! Arghhhh.

 

One thing I'm still rolling my eyes and having a WTF moment over is how easily Jorah and Darios can just saddle up and saunter right on outta Mereen like it aint nothin' and they're off for a picnic or something. I mean, they just got the ambush of a lifetime, barely survived and somehow the Unsullied Army are suddenly able to hold back the Harpies to the extent that two of Dany's closest protectors can just ride on outta dodge?  And where the hell are they going?! I mean, damn, did you see that expanse that lay outside of Mereen? What are those two numnuts gonna do, just ride in whatever direction the wind blows (I mean that literally) and hope they bump into Dany? Stop at taverns along the way and inquire of the locals, "excuse me my good man, have you perchance seen a woman riding atop a black dragon recently and if so, which direction were they headed?"  It's a stupid, nonsensical plan.

 

Someone mentioned that Drogon looked full and tired amid all the bones but I think that's where he's been hiding out most of the time, and that was leftover bones from past meals he's had.  I mean, he went missing for quite a while and maybe that's where he was hanging out, you know teenagers, they like their super sekrit hidey holes and all that.

[Pallas]

Is Sam the only one JS told about Hardhome? If yes, then he probably deserved to die. And why wasn't Ghost going nuts? Did they fucking kill Ghost?!?

 

Heh, Stumbler, about Jon.  As for Ghost...for now, I'm just going to decide that he was out for the night, the plotters knew and left it at that, planning to kill him when he returns.  But he won't.  Maybe he'll fend for himself on the outside, and wait for Alliser Thorne to head off to Olde Towne some night.  

 

Martells had this hatred for the Lannisters because of what happened during the war with the Mad King, wouldn't killing Jaimie make more sense, since he betrayed the Mad King and the Martells were on his side?

 

They were on the Mad King's side until his son Rhaegar left his Martell wife and children to disappear with Lyanna Stark.  Their grudge is less with Jaime than with Tywin and the Mountain.  And then, Cersei, who Ellaria saw openly supporting the Mountain in the combat, while Jaime clearly seemed to be siding with Oberyn, on Tyrion's behalf.  

 

It's so disrespectful to Oberyn, though. This was a man who took pride in the fact that his people didn't hurt little girls. It's like instead of avenging him, Ellaria spit on his grave.

 

Very good point, Shadowlass,   I was just thinking that the pursuit of revenge itself was shown to be a slippery slope, one by which Oberyn snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and Ellaria then turned Dornish grace and tolerance into a travesty.  

 

I might have to watch that scene again, but I was sure they were Dothraki, I could see the same painting on their bodies, the same weapons Drogo used, and sort of the same hairdos.

 

You could well be right, Choc.  I didn't remember the Dothraki being so baldly reminiscent of North American tribes, though.  

 

Someone mentioned that Drogon looked full and tired amid all the bones but I think that's where he's been hiding out most of the time, and that was leftover bones from past meals he's had.

 

I agree, gingerella: those bones were bleached.  That was Drogon's batcave.  

[gingerella]

As for Ghost...for now, I'm just going to decide that he was out for the night, the plotters knew and left it at that, planning to kill him when he returns.  But he won't.  Maybe he'll fend for himself on the outside, and wait for Alliser Thorne to head off to Olde Towne some night.

Pallas, I am going to think in this direction too for now. I cannot bear to lose another direwolf. I love them more than the human characters. That said, we know that Bran's and Summer have a warging connection, and Summer seems to mentally connected to Bran all the time.  While Ghost has always seemed much more independent of his human counterpart, he did show up just in the nick of time for Sam and Gilly, and he's done the same for Jon in the past too, hasn't he?  So even if he is roaming free outside somewhere doing wolfish things, it seems like he's connected enough to Jon that he would sense that Jon is either injured or has been killed (temporarily please because he cannot be dead for real!).  I just feel that Ghost must know Jon's current fate/predicament...

Edited June 16, 2015 by gingerella