S01.E08: Sick City

[Guest]

Karn buries secrets; failing to impress a record producer, Manson takes his disappointment out on his family; Shafe catches a tough break; Hodiak loses an old friend.

 

[sinkwriter]

My original quote:

 

One problem with using the Manson story as a subplot (or any plot, really) is that it's too well known. We know that a guy named Sam Hodiak is not the person who brought down Charles Manson, so how do the writers/showrunners complete this story and keep it within the scope of Hodiak and his life? Eventually he can't be part of solving the case, unless they're planning on doing some major rewriting of history.

Comment from Free:

That's probably why it diverges and basically becomes more procedural and the Manson plot becomes more and more separate from the cops storylines.

 

 

 

It may seem like the cases are separate from the Manson family storyline but in actuality we see in this episode that Hodiak is still investigating Emma's dad and his connection with Manson, so it would seem he's still very much tied to the Manson storyline. 

 

If he's investigating what Manson and Ken may or may not have done together criminally speaking, that's a bit of a problem because if he digs up enough on Manson I start to wonder how they'll let Manson get away with stuff in order to stay true enough to real history. If too much information comes out during Hodiak's investigation into Manson, then why wouldn't they arrest him? And what would Manson do if he found out Hodiak was getting too close to the truth?

 

I'm just curious where they're planning to take this and how they'll balance the true crime information with what Hodiak does with Manson (and vice versa) on the show. I'm still not sure it was the wisest move, using such a prominent historical case as a major plot in this series, even if it is seemingly tangential to Hodiak's home life and other case work.

Edited May 31, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Free]

My original quote:

Comment from Free:

 

It may seem like the cases are separate from the Manson family storyline but in actuality we see in this episode that Hodiak is still investigating Emma's dad and his connection with Manson, so it would seem he's still very much tied to the Manson storyline. 

 

If he's investigating what Manson and Ken may or may not have done together criminally speaking, that's a bit of a problem because if he digs up enough on Manson I start to wonder how they'll let Manson get away with stuff in order to stay true enough to real history. If too much information comes out during Hodiak's investigation into Manson, then why wouldn't they arrest him? And what would Manson do if he found out Hodiak was getting too close to the truth?

 

I'm just curious where they're planning to take this and how they'll balance the true crime information with what Hodiak does with Manson (and vice versa) on the show. I'm still not sure it was the wisest move, using such a prominent historical case as a major plot in this series, even if it is seemingly tangential to Hodiak's home life and other case work.

 

I know we do see Emma's storyline as well as her parents, there are other cases and storylines as well being thrown in.

 

I'm wondering how far they're planning on going in terms of historical references and details in terms of the Mason material.

 

I do think they should've just picked one or the other and focus on that instead of trying to split into several storylines at once.

[thuganomics85]

Hey, that was Gillian Alexy a.k.a. poor Annelise from The Americans, as the nurse Hodiak got info from and later got in bed with!

 

Looks like Emma finally has had enough of Charlie and his shit, after his bid with the music guy fell through, and he got all pissy and creepy about it.  Sure looked like she was heading out.  Of course, this all happens right after Ken finds out he is up for a position in Nixon's administration, so he's fully prepared to just have nothing to do with her anymore.  Classic Ken. And I'm guessing that body he is currently digging up is the prostitute that he and Charlie are all involved in.  Should be fun!

 

Shafe's undercover work sure went all the hell, with Roy capping Jimmy Too.  I guess he and the club owner were just getting tired of his mouth and disrespect.

 

Cutler acts like a dick towards Hodiak, until Hodiak bails him out with the wife.

 

Totally knew Hodiak's preacher friend was going to get killed by the gambling guy.  That's why you bring back-up!  Always assume the worst of everyone: especially on this show, I guess.

[Primetimer]

Which Evan Arnold comes out ahead: the one who hangs out with the murderous hippies of Aquarius, or the one who hangs out with the apparently non-murderous hippies of the Mad Men series finale?

Read the story

[shapeshifter]

I appreciate the cinematography that bookended this episode. It opens with the show's standard sepia tone filter and Ken's reflection in a window overlayed with the high rises of LA. It closes with the naturally neutral tones of rock piles that extent to the horizons which Ken has climbed to uncover the grave of Charlie's hooker--the red dress and purse giving color like the little girl in the red dress in Schindler's List.

When we see Ken drive into the desert, I briefly thought he was going to pick up Emma, but given that there were no cell phones, that's not possible.

Edited June 7, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Milburn Stone]

Which Evan Arnold comes out ahead: the one who hangs out with the murderous hippies of Aquarius, or the one who hangs out with the apparently non-murderous hippies of the Mad Men series finale?

http://previously.tv/aquarius/battle-of-the-evans-arnold/"> Read the story

 

 

You might be right, Tara, that Elliot was sincere in his insistence that he was truly inspired by Emma's load of crap, but I wasn't sure how to read it. I thought he might be--and I also thought it might be that her delusionary spiel was catching him on to how batshit crazy this scene was, and he was getting the hell out of there the safest way he knew how--i.e., with all the expert skills of BS an experienced A&R man might muster. It might be a flaw in how the show handled the moment that I came out not being sure which was true. Or it might be we're not meant to know for sure quite yet. Or it might just be I'm just not reading the signals.

 

The performance by Evan Arnold certainly seemed 100% sincere, with not one cue to the audience of a motive different from his avowed one. But that could be because a record company man like Elliot is great at fooling people into thinking he's 100% sincere.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[shapeshifter]

You might be right, Tara, that Elliot was sincere in his insistence that he was truly inspired by Emma's load of crap, but I wasn't sure how to read it. I thought he might be--and I also thought it might be that her delusionary spiel was catching him on to how batshit crazy this scene was, and he was getting the hell out of there the safest way he knew how--i.e., with all the expert skills of BS an experienced A&R man might muster. It might be a flaw in how the show handled the moment that I came out not being sure which was true. Or it might be we're not meant to know for sure quite yet. Or it might just be I'm just not reading the signals.

 

The performance by Evan Arnold certainly seemed 100% sincere, with not one cue to the audience of a motive different from his avowed one. But that could be because a record company man like Elliot is great at fooling people into thinking he's 100% sincere.

I saw the scene the same way, so I'm going with either "a flaw in how the show handled the moment" or "we're not meant to know for sure quite yet," or a third possibility, that the writers discussed his motivation going either way and decided to leave it open for now so they could possibly use it to further the plot later.

[Milburn Stone]

Staying with the music for a while...The crazy thing is that when I hear Charlie's music (at least as this show is presenting it), I can hear that with a little polishing from a good A&R man, Manson might have made it! Some of his songs are no worse than what was breaking through on FM at the time. This, in turn, makes me wonder how many singer-songwriter stars of the era could have turned into Charlie Mansons if they hadn't made it. Or if there are some singer-songwriters who became beloved by the public and "household names" for their music but who were no better than Manson in terms of their characters--and only the fact that they became famous with their music prevented us from seeing who they really were/are.

 

I give the show credit for putting these ideas in my head...

Edited June 7, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[shapeshifter]

...makes me wonder how many singer-songwriter stars of the era could have turned into Charlie Mansons if they hadn't made it. Or if there are some singer-songwriters who became beloved by the public and "household names" for their music but who were no better than Manson in terms of their characters--and only the fact that they became famous with their music prevented us from seeing who they really were/are...

I doubt the first (that they would've become Mansons) because there were no doubt a lot of guys who didn't make it, and yet we didn't see that happen (or at least know about it). So I guess the later isn't too likely either (that Bono could've become a serial killer with a cult following).

I do think some of those who made it to fame and fortune were no more talented than Manson (though some were amazingly talented), and perhaps with discipline and practice he could have become a respected musician.

But what I've observed over the decades is that those who succeed in any career have the ability to play well with others. Even the so-called Divas and temperamental actors and musicians manage to not alienate those who are necessary to their personal success.

In this episode, if Charlie had just replaced the string and continued, he might have made an album.

[cooksdelight]

Some of the dialogue is off for me. Saying "It's time to put on your big boy undies" wasn't something said back then. Nor was "vetting" that I remember. I keep hearing phrases and lingo used today, but not in 1968.

[TattleTeeny]

...makes me wonder how many singer-songwriter stars of the era could have turned into Charlie Mansons if they hadn't made it.

 

I'm assuming (because I don't know) that not too many had the same background and upbringing (or lack of) as Charles Manson, whose issues were less a result of musical failure than lifelong emotional trauma. IIRC, he didn't consider himself a musician until after he'd been imprisoned earlier than the timeline of this show.

 

Some of the dialogue is off for me. Saying "It's time to put on your big boy undies" wasn't something said back then. Nor was "vetting" that I remember. I keep hearing phrases and lingo used today, but not in 1968.

 

I don't know about the former, but the latter term has definitely been in use for a long time. It originated in horse racing, but it then became common in organized crime and law enforcement.

Edited June 11, 2015 by TattleTeeny

[shapeshifter]

...I don't know about the former, but the latter term [vetting] has definitely been in use for a long time. It originated in horse racing, but it then became common in organized crime and law enforcement.

From the OED (just because I can):

1918 H. A. Vachell Some Happenings iv. 42 Doctors were so ridiculously cocksure! All the same, he felt mildly interested in the vetting... Constitutionally he was as sound as a bell.

1927 Observer 17 July 13/1 The ‘vetting’ of applicants for loans would involve the State in an expenditure on itinerant investigators and inspectors.

1955 H. Macmillan in Hansard Commons 7 Nov. 1499 At the beginning of 1952, a regular system of positive vetting was introduced. This procedure entails detailed research into the whole background of the officer concerned.

1970 Canad. Antiques Collector July–Aug. 5/2, I was pleased to see that the vetting committee had done their work well.

1978 G. Greene Human Factor i. iii. 38 Of course, he belongs to the slack vetting days, but I'd say he was clear.

1982 Daily Tel. 20 July 3/1 There are some 68,000 government posts currently requiring positive vetting. Civil servants of Under Secretary rank and above are automatic candidates.

Edited June 11, 2015 by shapeshifter

[helenamonster]

I felt really bad for Hodiak when he learned about the priest's death. Damn, that's rough.

 

The show is really good at ending montages, but is moving the body really that great of an idea, Ken? Although I guess if they find that other prostitute who reported Caroline missing, she might know where the body was originally buried and lead them there, only for it to be gone.

 

No tears for Jimmy Too. Live like a bitch, die like a bitch. Still a little scared that Shafe and the snitch aren't going to come out of this thing alive. The snitch especially has "dead man walking" written all over him.

 

The girl who plays Emma has some seriously strong eyebrow game. She's also incredibly gorgeous. And go, Emma, go! I know your parents are shitty but you're 16 and come from wealth, you can go to college in a couple years and never look back!

[reggiejax]

he didn't consider himself a musician until after he'd been imprisoned earlier than the timeline of this show.

 

On the note of Manson's musicianship, I was very disappointed that they chose to change the story of how Manson learned to play guitar. He did indeed learn while locked up at McNeil Island, but rather than the "Mexican guy" that the onscreen Charlie credits with teaching him, Charlie was actually taught by Alvin "Creepy" Karpis.

 

Karpis was famed for being the last Public Enemy #1 of the Depression era to be brought in, arrested by J. Edgar Hoover himself (though as the head of the FBI, that was more a publicity stunt than the result of actual investigative work on Hoover's part). Karpis was an associate of John Dillinger and the Barker gang, and was considered the smartest of that era's gangsters. He would be imprisoned on Alcatraz for 26 years, the longest stretch ever done on The Rock.

 

After Alcatraz was shut down, he was transferred to McNeil Island, where he met Manson, who sought him out for guitar lessons. Karpis was shocked to learn that his former student would become so infamous. Karpis remembered Manson as meek and mild, and not anyone who would ever become so famous and dangerous. And he didn't consider Manson much of a musician. 

 

Karpis was played by Giovanni Ribisi in the Michael Mann film Public Enemies, if that helps anyone. 

[shapeshifter]

Rewatching this episode live tonight after having seen the subsequent episodes, the opening scene where Ken asks Hal if he had a bad night takes on a different subtext.

I'm glad the Priest got to deliver a last, personal homily to Hodiak at the station.

In this episode Hodiak and Manson are almost mirror images of each other. Hodiak is seen either during the time of the episode or in flashbacks with 3 different women. They both manipulate people to do their bidding. But Hodiak is on the side with the good priest, whereas Manson would be on the side of the priest who gambled away the donations and then killed the good priest to hide his own wrong doings,

Edited July 10, 2015 by shapeshifter

[miles2go]

Good episode. Miscellaneous thoughts:

 

Looks like Ken Karn has a backbone after all, as long as he has sufficient motivation to act decisively.  Too bad he's such a  bastard.

 

Poor Emma.  I hope she finds a safe haven somewhere.  Does she dare go back home?

 

Manson's music:  Don't really have an opinion on how good he actually was -- I'm not a good judge of such things.  From what I've read, he did have some musical talent, although not as much as he thought he had.  Outsiders who saw him perform mention that he had a strong stage presence, so with the right "packaging"  maybe he could have made it.  (I mean, if Herbert Khaury, aka Tiny Tim, could succeed, why not Manson?)

 

Record company guy:  My impression was that he was put off by Emma's delusions and was extricating himself from the situation.  His job, after all, isn't to look for the next messiah; just find someone who can make money for the record label. ( On the other hand, maybe he'll decide promoting a messiah would be profitable.)

 

I missed Charmaine.

 

Was really sorry that the old priest got killed,  although I was afraid something bad would happen when he said he was going to confront the gambler privately.  

 

And farewell, Jimmy Too.  That actually was a surprise.  (Although I should have seen it coming.  Lucille wasn't going to put up with him for long.)

[reggiejax]

Manson's music:  Don't really have an opinion on how good he actually was -- I'm not a good judge of such things.  From what I've read, he did have some musical talent, although not as much as he thought he had.  Outsiders who saw him perform mention that he had a strong stage presence, so with the right "packaging"  maybe he could have made it.  (I mean, if Herbert Khaury, aka Tiny Tim, could succeed, why not Manson?)

 

The general opinion was that Manson was not untalented, but he was raw as hell, especially as a guitar player. And as such the songs he wrote required a lot of work to make them into something truly listenable. Probably more work than is worth the effort.

 

I have heard a few of his songs, and they sound far better when someone else performs them than when Manson does. And this is just my opinion, but I think "Look at Your Game Girl" is a really great song regardless of who performs it, though not surprisingly the best version is the one done by Guns n Roses. The show featured Manson playing this song on one of the early episodes (I think it might have been the premiere) and it sounds pretty good even in what is supposed to be a very raw form.

 

Funny enough, one of the music industry people, I believe it was Dennis Wilson's friend Gregg Jakobsen, thought Manson might have possibly made it is a novelty act. Mostly because his true musical talent was that he could improvise a little ditty on the spur of the moment, and make it, if not great musically, at least entertaining. They felt that he was so good at improvising lyrics that, had he been born 30 years later, he might have been a rapper. A tremendous irony considering how racist Manson is towards black people.

Edited July 10, 2015 by reggiejax

[shapeshifter]

This episode made me wonder if there was a known Manson girl who became an emancipated minor to live with him, or if that was just something that could have happened because of the time and place.

I also wondered if there was a record company rep who had an experience not unlike the guy in this episode. I think I read or heard somewhere that someone from the Dennis Wilson camp (if not DW himself) who did initially think Manson had potential, but then realized he was too far over the cuckoo nest to invest money in.

[helenamonster]

This episode made me wonder if there was a known Manson girl who became an emancipated minor to live with him, or if that was just something that could have happened because of the time and place.

I also wondered if there was a record company rep who had an experience not unlike the guy in this episode. I think I read or heard somewhere that someone from the Dennis Wilson camp (if not DW himself) who did initially think Manson had potential, but then realized he was too far over the cuckoo nest to invest money in.

 

That sounds like it could describe Terry Melcher. From Wikipedia:

 

 

Manson eventually auditioned for Melcher, but Melcher declined to sign him. There was still talk of a documentary being made about Manson's music, but Melcher abandoned the project after witnessing his subject become embroiled in a fight with a drunken stuntman at Spahn Ranch.

[MsTree]

Is this show about to be cancelled?  Closed Captioning had many song titles (i.e. Kinks, Rolling Stones, etc) that were apparently substituted for generic music.  Sometimes the artists will pull out if they feel the show is going downhill. Or the producers of Aquarius just decided they couldn't afford the royalties after all?

[shapeshifter]

Is this show about to be cancelled?  Closed Captioning had many song titles (i.e. Kinks, Rolling Stones, etc) that were apparently substituted for generic music.  Sometimes the artists will pull out if they feel the show is going downhill. Or the producers of Aquarius just decided they couldn't afford the royalties after all?

The show is getting a second season. I always have captions on, but I didn't notice if the song titles matched or not, because they went by pretty quickly. Maybe they substitute them for the live broadcasts and not for the online streaming services because of license agreements because it's too easy to record over the air broadcasts? IDK.